Ask Jack #5 | S3E43 bonus

Welcome to the season finale of Ask Jack, featuring the prodigious culinary talents of professional plant-based chef and writer Jack McNulty answering food-related questions generated by you, our community. Check out the show notes below that dig deeper into the topics covered on this episode. Ask Jack will return in 2022 for its second season, where we will feast on even more of our community’s questions about all things cooking and eating in an OMS-friendly way. You can submit your questions for Jack anytime by emailing them to [email protected].

 

Introduction

 

In this episode, we have curated a set of commonly asked questions around holiday cooking. With the onslaught of the holidays upon us, people following the OMS program face major challenges in making traditional holiday recipes compliant with their dietary choices under the OMS program. Jack has had ample experience in navigating this narrow channel of healthy eating and holiday food fun, and what he’s learned and hopes to convey to you is that following OMS dietary guidelines doesn’t mean you have to forgo the joy of yummy holiday eating. So, let’s dig in!

 

Questions

 

1. How do I keep from 'cheating' when I'm around family and everyone is eating food I can't eat or enjoy?
2. Do you have any ideas for sweets I could make for the holidays? Sweets I can take to the office party and enjoy at home with my family?
3. Do you have any ideas for an OMS-friendly holiday roast?
4. This is my first year with MS, I'm new to OMS and I am struggling to come up with ideas for food I can enjoy during the holidays?
5. I'm confused about chocolate and what is allowed on the OMS diet. Can you explain what I can and can't use to make my desserts? 
6. I want to make pie this holiday season, but I can't find an OMS-safe recipe without added oils. Even the filo dough at the supermarket has oil. What can I do?
7. What's the difference between Dutch-process Cocoa and Cocoa? Are both OMS-safe? Is raw cocoa better than cocoa?
8. How can you make a traditional holiday cake OMS friendly?

 

Close

 

Thanks so much Jack for the inspiration and practical advice you’ve provided on how to make holiday cooking and eating healthy and fun. For those of you listening, you’ve probably built up a festive appetite, but now you can make those delicious recipes a bit healthier, too. This is the final episode of Ask Jack for 2021, but Jack will return to answer more of your food- and cooking-related questions in 2022. So that’s something to build up an appetite for. Remember, you can submit your questions for Jack anytime by emailing [email protected]. Till then, happy OMS-friendly holiday cooking and eating!

 

Links:

 

• Check out this blog post on 5 tips to avoid binge eating during the holidays.
• Here’s a link to Jack’s blog post about holiday cooking ideas.
• Want more cooking ideas? Check out the OMS cookbook!
• Here’s an in-depth article on the effects of alkalization on cocoa.
• Learn about the difference between Dutch processed and natural cocoa.
• Learn about the difference between cocoa and cacao.

 

Connect with Jack in a number of ways if you’d like to follow his work or gain some more insight into his OMS-friendly vegan culinary world:  Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook

 

In addition, Jack has started a newsletter publication called VeganWeekly that shares three vegan recipes weekly to try at home. Subscribe to it here. 

 

Coming up on our next episode:

 

Tune in starting November 17, 2021 for a very special episode with new OMS trustees Prof. Helen Rees Leahy and Alison Marwick for a stimulating roundtable discussion about advocacy and its central place in spreading the message about positive lifestyle change to the entire MS community.

 

Don’t miss out:

 

Subscribe to this podcast and never miss an episode. You can catch any episode of Living Well with MS here or on your favorite podcast listening app. Don’t be shy – if you like the program, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you tune into the show. And feel free to share your comments and suggestions by emailing [email protected].

 

S3E43c Transcript

Ask Jack #5

 

Geoff Allix (2s):

Hi, I'm Geoff Allix, host of Living Well with MS, the podcast from Overcoming MS.

 

Jack McNulty (7s):

Hi, I'm Jack McNulty. A professional chef and serious OMS foodie. Welcome to Ask Jack, a special Living Well with MS podcast series, where I'll be answering food and cooking-related questions submitted by you, our Overcoming MS community.

 

Geoff Allix (25s):

If you'd like to submit a question for a future episode of Ask Jack, please email us at [email protected], that's [email protected]. And now let's rev up our appetites and dig into this episode. Welcome to the season finale of Ask Jack featuring the prodigious culinary talents of professional chef Jack McNulty. Sorry I know Jack just asked me to say, could you say, professional cook? So, I'll change that, professional cook, Jack McNulty, answering food-related questions generated by you, our community. Check out the show notes below that dig into the topics covered in this episode in more detail. Ask Jack will return in 2022 for its second season where we will feast on even more of our community's questions about all things cooking and eating in an OMS-friendly way.

 

Geoff Allix (1m 13s):

You can submit your questions for Ask Jack anytime by emailing them to [email protected]. So, in this episode, we've created a set of commonly asked questions about the holiday season. With the onslaught of the holidays upon us, people following the OMS program face major challenges in making traditional holiday recipes compliant with their dietary choices under the OMS program. Jack has had ample experience in navigating this narrow channel of healthy eating and holiday food fun. And what he's learned and hopes to convey to you is that following OMS dietary guidelines doesn't mean you have to forgo the joy of yummy holiday eating. So, let's dig in and welcome, Jack.

 

Jack McNulty (1m 54s):

Thanks, Geoff. Great to be back for another little conversation about food and this time specifically holiday food. Looking forward to it.

 

Geoff Allix (2m 1s):

And I think this is, it's a time when food is central, isn't it? There are many different festivities going on at this time of year, but they all do seem to center around food more than maybe at other times of the year.

 

Jack McNulty (2m 17s):

That's right. Yeah. There are lots of customs. There are lots of parties, businesses, businesses have office parties, things like this. So yeah, there are lots of opportunities to have food in front of you. But of course, with that, there's also a lot of opportunities to have peer pressure to slip away from the diet a little bit. And I guess that's probably one point we could spend a little bit of time talking about.

 

Geoff Allix (2m 45s):

So, to start off with, how do you keep from cheating when you've got everyone eating all this huge array of what does tend to be more non-compliant food? That's the other thing I think because people see it, they have this sort of maybe unhealthy food as kept on a pedestal. Like, okay, I shouldn't be eating this all the time, but it's the holidays. So, I'm going to have this high fat, really lots of maybe more prepared, processed, you know, lots of things. And people think of that because, oh, they shouldn't do it all the time, but it's the holidays, so we'll do it now.

 

Geoff Allix (3m 26s):

So how can you keep away from cheating when everyone else is eating all that food?

 

Jack McNulty (3m 33s):

Yeah. It's an interesting question, isn't it? It's perplexing to me how people celebrate the holidays by allowing excuses to creep in. And that's really what that is. Yeah. Willpower, it's all about willpower and just being courageous and being strong and sticking to what you believe in. So, for me, when I was just starting out, I mean, I just kept trying to remind myself of what was my goal, what was the whole goal that I was trying to achieve by following the OMS lifestyle and the diet in particular?

 

Jack McNulty (4m 15s):

And then I wanted to understand what are the goals of OMS? What are the ultimate goals of OMS? Of course, that's keeping inflammation down and improving your blood profile. And so, I really wanted to always remind myself, you know, are my actions, are my thoughts, the food that I'm taking in, is that in alignment with those goals, my goals, and also the goals within OMS? And I think that's just really helpful to always just keep that in perspective as you move along and through the holidays. It certainly helps when you run across situations where peer pressure comes into play, maybe it's family members or friends, they're saying, oh, come on, it's the holidays.

 

Jack McNulty (4m 59s):

You know, a little cheese is not going to hurt you and that sort of thing, but that's the time when it's really most important to really stick to what you're believing in and moving forward with pursuing those particular goals. I also did something that was, I'm not so sure I really want to share this publicly, but now that I've started, I guess I have to. [Geoff chuckles] I, what I did is I kind of gave those little situations that came up, those little stressors, those little pressures that would come up, I gave them names and I just spoke to them.

 

Jack McNulty (5m 39s):

So, for instance, this is a bit corny, but I gave cheese the name Charlie, for no particular reason, other than they both begin with C. And so, every time I had an urge at the beginning to, oh, I’d really, really like to have a piece of cheese right now. And then I just talked to Charlie, and I would just say, you know, thanks for coming by Charlie, but we've had this discussion before and I appreciate what you've done for me in the past, but you're not welcome here anymore. So, feel free to leave. And for me, that helped a lot just to kind of play a little bit of a game like that, to give that a particular name and just deal with it that way and acknowledge it.

 

Jack McNulty (6m 19s):

And then just move on. There was also on the OMS website, there was a blog post a year or two ago from the former Boston Circle ambassador. I believe her name was Carolyn Kaufman, who wrote a nice piece about this particular topic, about not allowing, or not slipping, you know, a little bit during the holiday season. And that might be worthwhile to go check out.

 

Geoff Allix (6m 50s):

And the other thing is, so we'll come onto roasts, which is a big thing, but also sweets and puddings, cakes, do you have any ideas for sweet food that you could make for the holidays, that you could take to a party, that you can enjoy with your family?

 

Jack McNulty (7m 12s):

We can probably do a whole hour on this just alone. I think, especially now, there are just so many different ideas available through books, through various community groups, various organizations. It's just so simple to figure out a way to turn something plant-based or to make it a little bit more OMS friendly, you know, depending on whether you're using egg whites or not. So, there are lots and lots of ideas out there. For me, I just like to, I really enjoy this time of year because I like sweets.

 

Jack McNulty (7m 52s):

It's no secret. I have a little bit of a sweet tooth, but I love exploring and just keep reinventing. For instance, I took a classic holiday drink, eggnog, are you familiar with eggnog?

 

Geoff Allix (8m 6s):

Mhm. Yep.

 

Jack McNulty (8m 6s):

And it's so easy to make that plant-based. And so, you know, a veg-nog, if you will, and just cashew-based and create something like that, and then sharing it with other people just really adds a lot of enjoyment to the process. But certainly, to get to the crux of your question, yeah, there are plenty of cakes, cookies, steam puddings, sweet style bread, things like a [inaudible] or something like this. And I think that what you can do very simply is you can go out, search out, for instance, if you're trying to make a cake, just find something that's very ordinary, an olive oil-based cake, for instance, that just pops into my head and then look at that and look to include some Christmas spices to it, for instance, or dried fruits or a combination of those two things, perhaps even adding a little bit of alcohol.

 

Jack McNulty (9m 9s):

You know, if you want, if that's something that's favorable to you just increase the sort of festiveness of it around the holiday period, it's very simple to do, to change the flavor profile of something that's just normal and make it a little bit more holiday-like.

 

Geoff Allix (9m 30s):

Because of the steam fruit pudding, it's probably quite compliant. I don't think you need to do much to that, do you?

 

Jack McNulty (9m 37s):

That's correct, yeah. That's pretty simple.

 

Geoff Allix (9m 38s):

And that's kind of the basis in the UK, certainly, at Christmas, we have a Christmas pudding, which is kind of steamed and a Christmas cake. And I don't know about other religions, but I mean, that's sort of a fruit cake, and certainly other cultures because my aunt's from Barbados and her mother who's deceased, she used to cook these incredible cakes. So, she would, every month she would fill a tub with dried fruit. And then she would top it up with rum and then each month she would take one of these tubs down and then make this amazingly moist fruit cake.

 

Geoff Allix (10m 20s):

And then she would put another, she would fill that tub, clean it, fill the tub with fruit and put it on the end. She had six tubs. So, it's every six, it took six months to make it across. And then each month it was topped up with more rum. So, by the end of the six months, there was no recognizable fruit. It was just mush, but it was always heavily saturated in rum. The moistness of it was incredible. I think a lot of the alcohol had probably evaporated off, but I think it was probably, I wouldn't like to drive after eating too much of this. And so, it's a very different culture. This wasn't done, particularly as, you know, a religious thing at all. But just, yeah, you can certainly have a fruit cake and a bit of alcohol, if people have alcohol again, sort of adding that sort of Christmas flavors and everything.

 

Jack McNulty (11m 13s):

There are two recipes in the OMS cookbook that are very similar to these kinds of things. There's one, that's just, it's simply called a Christmas Cake. I think it has three ingredients. It's along the lines of what you were just describing. Maybe not quite as involved in taking so long, because I think it's a little bit more instant, but it certainly fits the bill. And then there's another one called an Irish Whiskey Cake from Jessica in Ireland. And that was quite fun making that with Ingrid when we were doing the cookbook together, when Ingrid was editing it and we were testing some of those recipes, we had good fun with those particular recipes, actually making them.

 

Jack McNulty (11m 57s):

They're quite good. And I encourage people to check them out.

 

Geoff Allix (12m 0s):

And you were saying eggnog is another one that there's probably a generic way of saying this, but there's a drink called Bailey's, which is very popular at Christmas in the UK. So, it's a coffee whiskey-based and cream. And that's something I do every year. I kind of have a vague idea of the recipe, but actually, you were saying the experimentation is as much fun as anything. Because I know that there'll be whiskey in there. There will be like oat milk or oat milk whiskey, a little bit of espresso coffee and something like maple syrup or some sort of sugary syrupy flavor in there, and a little bit of vanilla.

 

Geoff Allix (12m 46s):

And I just sort of, and actually, it's no problem testing it and then changing it a little bit and testing it some more and then changing it a little bit. The testing is definitely fun. [Both laugh]

 

Jack McNulty (12m 55s):

Exactly. Put a little [inaudible] eggnog on there and call it something else, nobody's going to know. [Jack laughs]

 

Geoff Allix (13m 4s):

No, it's good. So, coming onto sort of the main course, if you like, there are two questions here, so, well, I'll start with the second one, which is actually the, that this was [inaudible]... This is my first year with MS and I'm new to OMS. And I am struggling to come up with ideas for food I can enjoy during the holidays. And then just to combine that with, do you have any ideas for an OMS-friendly roast? So, what sort of like main event meals do you think you can cook at home, in a friendly way, because it is, as I said again, we're sort of saying unhealthy, but it's also centered around meat as well, but that could be, ham, it could be turkey, but it's beef as well.

 

Geoff Allix (13m 46s):

It's often centered around meat.

 

Jack McNulty (13m 48s):

Yeah, it is. It's the central item around the table. Before I get to that, let me just address the issue with the first part of that question with someone just starting out the first year with MS. Struggling with different ideas of what to make during the holiday season. Maybe the OMS program is brand new to them, struggling, trying to figure out what kinds of foods to eat. Certainly, for most people that have been following OMS for a while, I think this is very relatable. I think most of us dealt with this at some point or another, probably during the first year in fact, and lifestyle changes are stressful and it does take a lot of courage to go through them.

 

Jack McNulty (14m 34s):

You know, by definition, if you're making a lifestyle change, you're really not only changing your habits, but you're creating a little bit of a distance between what your friends and family might be doing as well. And so that's going to add some pressure and some different challenges along the way. So, what I did during the first holiday is I sat down and I just tried to understand what was it about the holiday foods that I experienced and loved so much? What was it, why did I like those? What were those particular recipes that I enjoyed?

 

Jack McNulty (15m 15s):

And I, so I collected them, you know, I got in touch with some family members and started collecting a little bit of those particular recipes that meant a lot to me. And I looked out and asked myself, you know, what can I do to make these recipes OMS compliant? And I was really surprised at how simple that was for the majority of recipes. And so for me, it was just a matter of making some slight adjustments. And basically, it was the same sorts of foods. Now, obviously, you're not going to replace the roast at the center of the table. I grew up primarily with, I think we have mostly turkey and ham kind of thing.

 

Jack McNulty (15m 60s):

So that was the big thing around my table. But you know, if you are in a family situation, I think that it's simple, if your other family members are eating meat or eating things that you're not necessarily eating to just having a discussion, a family discussion saying, you know, does it really need to be the central part of the table? Can we make that a little bit more off to the side and then change the center of the table, to make it some dramatic sort of vegetable preparation. I think if you search around, it's pretty easy to find a roasted cauliflower recipe with grape and pine nut sauce for instance.

 

Jack McNulty (16m 40s):

It's very dramatic looking and it's very tasty and it's very much OMS compliant or some kind of other gratin or something of this nature. Or if you're eating fish, if that's something you decide to do roasting a whole fish can be really dramatic and replacing that with the traditional ham or turkey or things of that nature. I know that in the Southern hemisphere, you know, it's a much different situation. The weather is warm. People are barbecuing. You know, they're out grilling having different kinds of situations. I know, years ago when I was visiting Australia, during the holiday season, I actually had a Christmas day dinner with Linda Bloom, the founder of OMS.

 

Jack McNulty (17m 33s):

And it was wonderful having grilled prawns and, you know, a whole fish presented and that sort of thing. It was absolutely no problem for anybody involved. It was such a dramatic type of OMS experience. It's something that sticks with me today, even though I no longer eat fish.

 

Geoff Allix (17m 51s):

Yeah, I found Australians, they go one way or the other. They, some people go very, cause they still, because it was a British colony, they still stick with the, we have to have the big roast dinner, which is really unsuitable because if you're anywhere in a sort of hot parts of Australia, which is most of it, it's not really the most suitable food to have at that time of year. And also a lot of the shopping centers have got fake snow everywhere, which is very, very strange when you're in that very high temperature. [Both chuckle]

 

Jack McNulty (18m 20s):

Yeah. I was a little shocked to see Santa Claus dressed, you know, in a surfing outfit. [Both laugh]

 

Geoff Allix (18m 27s):

And the other thing, I mean, some things I've come across, a vegan Wellington. So a Wellington probably doesn't translate globally, but basically, it's a beef dish traditionally. So it's a dish where you have beef covered in pastry with mushrooms and pâté as well. So it's non-compliant, but basically, it's the idea of it being wrapped in pastry, but there's a number of different recipes. There's a couple of people in Ireland called The Happy Pair, who have a lot of videos available on YouTube. And they've got lots of cookbooks as well. Some of their stuff's non-compliant, most of it, is fairly compliant.

 

Geoff Allix (19m 10s):

They do tend to fry, which we can obviously dry fry or fry in water for onions, but actually, you get these delicious vegetable-based fillings inside, and they quite often use a filo pastry, which you can buy, I mean, filo pastry is one of those things that I'm sure it's possible to make, but making wafer-thin pastry is certainly beyond my talents. But actually, if you look around, it's not too hard to find compliant, filo pastry, and actually, you can make it really delicious, and that's almost a centerpiece. I mean, certainly, it's too big for one person to eat. And when I have that at Christmas, people will always have some of that and they do, you know, there are lots of different variations available.

 

Geoff Allix (19m 56s):

So, you can do it as a sort of centerpiece, which is compliant as well. And that, you know, certainly that would go in the center, but also there'll be a ham or a turkey as well. And that's, and I think the other thing for me is it's about all the extras. So, what makes it a celebration meal is all the extra bits because what we call in the UK meat and two veg, which is sort of a traditional meal, it's a bit beyond that. So, it's the things like we have a thing called Devils on Horseback, which are prunes wrapped in bacon and baked in the oven. Well, I thought, okay, this could be redone because I'd seen something about fake bacon where they'd use, if someone could, Deliciously Ella, who's UK based.

 

Geoff Allix (20m 44s):

And a lot of her stuff uses quite heavily coconut base, but it's worth having a look through some of the things. She creates bacon using rice paper and then make some marinade, which uses liquid smoke, soy sauce, garlic, there are some other things in there, but that's the sort of base of it and soaks the rice paper in this. And then you, and then she used that to make bacon. I thought, well, okay, if she used that to make a sort of bacon-like thing, then I could wrap prunes in that, and then I could bake them. And that would kind of be like, there was an [inaudible] pack and it's exactly like it, I mean, it really gives you that smoky flavor combined with the fruit flavor and it, and it's got the, all that sort of flavor notes that you'd expect.

 

Geoff Allix (21m 28s):

And so, the extra trimmings, I think that's, you know, and a lot of those things and stuffing is another one we have a lot of, a lot of stuffing is actually it, you get a meat stuffing with sort of sausage. You also get a vegetable one, which is sort of breadcrumb based, a lot of sage and onion. And you can make that because actually, that's fine. So, there are lots of things. Okay. What were the extra bits that you'd have? And can we do those? Can we do red cabbage, is another one that's commonly done. Yeah, absolutely. There's nothing wrong with red cabbage at all. That can be done with, with fruit and yeah.

 

Jack McNulty (22m 8s):

Going with something as simple as just a potato puree, mashed potatoes, if you will, you know, it's so simple to make that in an OMS compliant manner and make it extremely tasty. It's really not that difficult to do. Absolutely. This is just the, hopefully, it gives people the idea that man, the world is just completely opened up in terms of what you can and can't, you know, what you can have instead of what you can't have. There are so many more different options available at least today, as opposed to maybe even 10 years ago, just different techniques to know about people sharing information on the internet and different books and different places to go look, it's really, really quite easy.

 

Jack McNulty (22m 58s):

And back to your idea with the Wellington, you know, it occurred to me that with filo dough, there's a recipe on the OMS website for strudel. And there's this strudel recipe on there. I know that because we did a video on that, years ago, and I believe it's still on the website, but this strudel dough is almost identical to filo. The only difference is that it has vinegar in the ingredients, whereas filo dough wouldn't have that. It just allows it to stretch out very, very easily and very thin, but you could take something like strudel dough if you can't find filo dough in your area or make it yourself.

 

Jack McNulty (23m 41s):

It's very simple to make and just wrap your favorite vegetable-based loaf around a filo or a strudel dough, and basically, you're making a savory strudel at that point, which is also something that's very interesting.

 

Geoff Allix (23m 58s):

So, to sum up, so we've sort of covered the main course, we've covered a bit of dessert, but then you get onto another thing which comes up a lot and that's chocolates. So, there's a couple of things here. So, we've got, what's allowed on the OMS diet because is chocolate, I'll go on a bit more before you answer the question, but is chocolate an absolute no-no like we just shouldn't have any, or is it something about chocolate that we shouldn't have? And what alternatives there are? And also, there's a lot of terms that come up with cocoa.

 

Geoff Allix (24m 39s):

So, we'll get onto the Dutch cocoa process, cocoa, cacao, all these different terms that we see and what we can and can't use and what we should and shouldn't do around chocolate.

 

Jack McNulty (24m 55s):

Yeah. It's a complicated issue. Let's just start with that. And it's very tribal in its nature when you go out and look in the internet and things like this, that it's almost a little bit like, it reminds me a little bit like the split in opinions about things like coconut oil or coconut fat, you know, there's certainly a lot of people out there that still believe that that's a very, very much of that healthy kind of ingredient to use in your cooking. But on the other hand, there's an increasing number of people that realized no, the science says that, you know, it's pretty heavy in saturated fat. Well, the same thing can be said for chocolate.

 

Jack McNulty (25m 38s):

And to understand that maybe it's helpful to just kind of go through a little bit as to how chocolate is made. And then we can talk a little bit about the different terms along the way. Just gives people maybe a little bit of a better understanding that it's not necessarily what's being presented on the internet and out in the world in terms of all of those wonderful health benefits. Now, having said that there are bits that are healthy, but let's talk about that as we go through. So first of all, it's really important to understand that chocolate in itself is not a whole food. So, a lot of people like to say, oh, they're following this whole food plant-based diet.

 

Jack McNulty (26m 21s):

And then they're using things like chocolate and cocoa. It's not necessarily a whole food. It's heavily processed actually. So chocolate begins with the cocoa plant and cacao, however, you want to pronounce it. So, it creates this sort of large fruit with a big pod that's filled with seeds. And those seeds are actually where we're getting our chocolate from. So those seeds have a lot of pulp around them and basically, when they're harvested, they're split open and they take out all of that pulp and all of the seeds, and those are left to ferment.

 

Jack McNulty (27m 1s):

So those are usually fermented naturally. And the fermentation process can be anywhere from a few days to a short period of fermentation. But this is where the whole flavor starts to develop, is in the fermentation process, and eating unfermented chocolate is a proposition I wouldn't wish on anybody. It's really horrible to taste unfermented cacao. It's just not edible at all. Even fermented after being fermented and dried, it's extremely astringent, rather bitter, very acidic, and really not a pleasant experience even in that state.

 

Jack McNulty (27m 50s):

And so this is what's done when chocolate is harvested. So, the farmers responsible for the fermentation, for the drying process, and then they're all bagged up, and then that's sold on the open market. And so chocolate producers will buy those beans that have been fermented and dried. Those beans are called chocolate nibs. And you maybe have heard that term before, a chocolate nib or a cacao nib or cocoa nib, however, you want to pronounce it. So those are susceptible depending on the packaging to quite a lot of microbial growth. So, they have to be sort of purified once they're purchased.

 

Jack McNulty (28m 36s):

And just to ensure that there are not a lot of harmful molds or bacteria that are growing on there. Generally, to eat those at that stage, it's again, really, really unpleasant. So, manufacturers roast those cocoa nibs either whole or crushed, one way or another. And once they're roasted, they take on a different flavor. So now they're not in sweetened, but they've mellowed considerably and they have a nutty characteristic and they, all these other aromas are opened up. Once that occurs, then they're crushed, that's turned into a sort of a liquidy kind of let's put it this way, it's cocoa, solid, suspended, and fat, which is basically what you're left with.

 

Jack McNulty (29m 39s):

So, it's about 50% fat and about 50% cocoa solids. At this point that is pressed or put through what's like a sieve basically and pressed. And so, the fat is drained out and you're left with cocoa solids. That fat is the cocoa butter. It basically has no flavor or very little flavor. It's about 50% of the mass that was in that process. And about half of that fat is saturated. And that's important to understand because that's not necessarily good for people following an OMS lifestyle.

 

Jack McNulty (30m 21s):

Now, the cocoa butter or cocoa mask that has been pressed that's dried and then ground very fine, that's what cocoa powder is or cacao powder at that point. So, depending on how much the manufacturer presses the mass, determines how much fat is left in the cocoa powder. And that can be anywhere from 1% to up to 20%, depending on the whim of the manufacturer. And that's why it's important to read labels, to see how much fat is actually left in the cocoa powder. Of course, from that point, the manufacturers can turn everything into chocolate by taking the cocoa powder, the cocoa butter and mixing in amounts of sugar or dried milk, if they're making milk chocolate, that sort of thing.

 

Jack McNulty (31m 12s):

And then that's all combined and put through another process to create chocolate or the chocolate bar that maybe we're familiar with. So, in talking about cocoa, there are some things to be aware of. Along the way, manufacturers can tone down the astringency, the bitterness and the acidity of the cocoa or the flavor by adding an alkaline to it. And that alkaline process neutralizes the acidity. But at the same time, it destroys almost all of the flavonoids, which is the healthy aspect of cocoa.

 

Jack McNulty (31m 57s):

And so that process is called the Dutch process. It was invented in Holland. That's why it's called Dutch-processed. So, the process of adding an alkaline to the cocoa can occur just before the roasting. It can occur during the actual separation of the cocoa butter into the cocoa mass, or it can occur actually even later to make a chocolate bar taste less acidic and a little bit sweeter. So, it can occur anywhere along the process.

 

Jack McNulty (32m 38s):

That's why it's difficult to determine the actual healthy aspects of cocoa or chocolate. And it depends on how much, or if the alkaline process occurred. Now with cocoa powder, it's simple to determine that on your own. Most American-made cocoa powder is not subject to an alkaline process. Most European cocoa is, and it's called European on the labels. Sometimes it's called the Dutch process. Sometimes it's called dutched. And if there's nothing on the label, which is also possible, just your visual look will tell you whether it's been subject to this process.

 

Jack McNulty (33m 24s):

So, one that's Dutch processed will always be much, much darker in color, a really rich color of chocolate brown if you will. Whereas if it hasn't been subject to this alkaline process, it's much lighter in color. Now from a culinary perspective, does it make any difference? It does actually in baking because the fact that the acids have been neutralized will determine the level you can use, and we'll talk about that, if you want to go down the path of baking powder and baking so that, or maybe we can leave that for another episode, but it is an interesting scenario, but the thing that is really important for people following the OMS diet to know is that firs,  cocoa powder or cacao is allowed in the OMS protocol, but there's some work to be done on the user end.

 

Jack McNulty (34m 20s):

You have to look at the labels, you have to understand how much fat is still left there, because that there's a great variety with different manufacturers. Then if you're looking to increase the amount of cacao or cocoa, whether you're consuming nibs or powder, you have to understand, has it been subject to the alkaline method, which will destroy all of the health properties that you're looking to get, the flavonoid bits.

 

Geoff Allix (34m 49s):

So, if we, if we take it, it's this sort of, if there are three categories, this is what's bad for you. There's what's good for you. And there's a middle ground of neither. So, to get rid of the what's bad for you, we're basically looking at like a chocolate bar would normally have milk in it in the UK. So that's a big no-no. So definitely a chocolate bar, you do see vegan ones, but, but generally, if it's got milk in it, that's a no-no. Let's say it's a vegan one, it doesn't have any milk. Then we're looking at the saturated fat content. So, if it doesn't have any milk and it's got a low saturated fat content, then we're not so much worried about the term cacao, cocoa.

 

Jack McNulty (35m 34s):

No. They're interchangeable. They are just marketing terms. And they don't, some people that claim to have healthy cocoa or cacao or say that cacao is like raw. It hasn't been roasted, you know, has all of these high flavonoids and et cetera, et cetera, it may or may not be true. There's no way to really know that. And it could be just put on there as a marketing claim.

 

Geoff Allix (36m 0s):

And I'm assuming both cacao and cocoa are probably translations from [inaudible] or in Peru or some like, and they probably were the same basis anyway. So, we're using our own knowledge. We're saying, okay, there's no dairy in there. It's low-saturated fat. We've got some powder there that isn't bad for us. Now the good for us, so we're avoiding Dutch or European processing. It makes it more likely. And then the other tip is to say, is it a dark brown or is it a lighter brown? Lighter brown is good, not Dutch-process, not European process, but if in doubt, if it's low-saturated fat, if it's dairy-free, it's not bad for us at least.

 

Jack McNulty (36m 49s):

Right. Right.

 

Geoff Allix (36m 49s):

Okay. So... [Inaudible]

 

Jack McNulty (36m 50s):

It's a pretty good summation there. Well, one of the things to just mention just on the pure chocolate, if you, you know, there's all of these percentages, 70%, 85%, 90%, that's what I think, here's what that means. The 70% means there's 70% cocoa product and 30% sugar. Okay. So, the balance of whatever it is, if it's 85%, that means there's 15% sugar. So, in a hundred-gram bar of chocolate, 70% means there are 30 grams of sugar. That's like three tablespoons of sugar in that bar of chocolate.

 

Jack McNulty (37m 31s):

What it also is telling you on 70% chocolate on your chocolate bar is that there are roughly 35 grams of fat in that 70% hundred-gram bar of chocolate, right? That's a pretty significant amount. And when you think about it, so 35 grams of fat and half of that fat is going to be saturated. So, if you were to sit down and eat what some people otherwise consider relatively healthy, 70% chocolate bar, you're going to get about 17 grams of saturated fat by that indulgence.

 

Jack McNulty (38m 16s):

That's why it's not recommended within the OMS protocol.

 

Geoff Allix (38m 23s):

Okay. But we can certainly make chocolate-based food by using...

 

Jack McNulty (38m 28s):

Cacao.

 

Geoff Allix (38m 30s):

...cacao, certainly. It might be healthy and certainly not unhealthy. It's relatively straightforward to do that.

 

Jack McNulty (38m 36s):

That's right. That's right. I think that's probably a good place to leave that conversation, but I think it's really important to put that information out there and then just let people make their own decision, you know, is it something I'm going to really want to have? Yeah, sure. I think having chocolate, you know, in my diet, I have it occasionally with cacao, not so often, but occasionally and yeah, it tastes good. It brightens the mood. There's no question about that. Whether there's a lot of, you know, extreme health benefits, I think that's certainly up for debate.

 

Geoff Allix (39m 19s):

Yeah. A bit goes into my Bailey's mix-up. That's another thing that goes in there with cacao. Okay. Are there any other tips that we should add for this holiday season?

 

Jack McNulty (39m 31s):

I think first just smile a lot. And that's what I always like to tell people. I think it's always, I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's just, it bears repeating that it's really, really important to just constantly remind yourself, especially if you're at the beginning of the journey of what your goals are and what are the goals of OMS and following a dietary lifestyle change. That's going to benefit you in the future. You know, the goal of reducing inflammation of improving your blood profile, those are really, really strong, powerful goals to have.

 

Jack McNulty (40m 15s):

And if you can achieve that through diet, it's going to make a big change to your life for the better, those are positive changes that everybody can make. And I think if you can focus on that in the holiday, that's the best gift that you can give yourself.

 

Geoff Allix (40m 30s):

I know one final point for me, it's often a time when we're eating out as well. It could be with friends; it could be with work. I have found that a good restaurant will have no problem following OMS recommendations, and I basically point them to the website and give them a little list myself. Also saying, here's the website, and you can find all the recommendations are there. So, every good restaurant I've been to I have had no problem. I think the chefs actually enjoy it. They think, okay, there's something a bit different. And then they'll come back to me saying, how about this? And often with three courses, they'll say this is the starter, main course, dessert.

 

Geoff Allix (41m 13s):

What do you think about that? Often a choice actually, or sometimes even on the night, they will give me my menu and say, oh, you can choose from these things. And they have no problem at all. And actually, anywhere that they said, no, this is a set menu, is probably not a great restaurant. I think, you know, they are probably, if they can't adapt, then are they just reheating something? Yeah. If it's the point where they can't adapt to it just a bit, then is it really being freshly cooked anyway? And is that a great restaurant? But I do find, just get in touch, give them notice, give them some time, time to think about it.

 

Geoff Allix (41m 58s):

And I have found that the vast majority of restaurants have no problem. You know, I always sort of, I try and be apologetic and try and, you know, like be understanding. And they're busy. It's a really hard job. And they've not had a problem. I think that they don't have a problem and often the chef will come out to me and say, you know, what did you think of that? How was that? And yeah, I think you can eat well in restaurants. You have to have a level of trust that they are doing what they say, but yeah, I think if you communicate with them, give them notice, then you can find some delicious food cooked for you.

 

Jack McNulty (42m 34s):

I think you're right. I think, you know, from my experience in working, most of my restaurant experiences occurred in really high-end restaurants. And I found that anytime anybody came in with some sort of allergy or some sort of request for something new, it was fun. I mean, it did break up the service, it generally created a little bit more stress in the kitchen, but sometimes, you know, as cooks, we sort of feed off stressful situations in the kitchen and then just make it a little bit more of a challenge. And it was, you know, the other common feature about chefs is we like to have our ego fed. And if you do make something, you do want to go out and get that feedback.

 

Jack McNulty (43m 20s):

You want to ask, you know, how was that? And it's a proud moment when you create something that's going to make someone else really happy and satisfied. So most good restaurants, I think you're absolutely right, are going to be able to adjust.

 

Geoff Allix (43m 36s):

Okay. And with that, I just wish everyone, a happy holiday season.

 

Jack McNulty (43m 40s):

I do as well. And a very good and fantastic start to the new year.

 

Geoff Allix (43m 49s):

And I hope you join us again next year.

 

Jack McNulty (43m 51s):

Thanks, Geoff.

 

Geoff Allix (43m 52s):

Thanks for listening to this episode of Ask Jack, the special five-part series where we dive into questions from our OMS community about all things food. Please check out this episode’s show notes at www.overcomingms.org/podcast. You'll find all sorts of useful links and bonus information there. If you'd like to submit a question for a future episode of Ask Jack, please email us at [email protected]. You can also subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, so you never miss an episode. Ask Jack is kindly supported by a grant from the Happy Charitable Trust. If you'd like to support the Overcoming MS charity and help keep our podcast advertising free, you can donate online at www.overcomingms.org/donate.

 

Geoff Allix (44m 40s):

Thank you for your support. Ask Jack is produced by Overcoming MS, the world's leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity. We are here to help inform, support, and empower everyone affected by MS. To find out more and subscribe to our e-newsletter, please visit our website at www.overcomingms.org. Thanks again for tuning in and see you next time.