Loose Parts Alive: Inspiring Child-Led Nature Exploration

In this episode, we sit down with Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D. and Carla Gull, Ph.D., the authors of Loose Parts Alive, to dive into the limitless potential of living loose parts. From the flutter of a butterfly’s wings to the sway of trees in the breeze, discover how integrating nature into your learning space can spark creativity, curiosity, and critical thinking in young children. Learn practical tips for incorporating plants, animals, and even the human body into open-ended play, and hear real-life examples of this magical approach in action.

Loose Parts Alive: Nature's Role in Early Learning - Show Notes

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation about the philosophy behind loose parts play, which encourages children to interact with open-ended materials in ways that promote creativity, exploration, and environmental awareness.

Dr. Gull and Dr. Wilhelm share insights on the benefits of loose parts, specifically living loose parts in nature, for fine motor skill development, sensory experiences, and social-emotional learning. They emphasize the importance of using natural and varied materials, from pine cones to acorns, to engage children’s curiosity and help them connect with nature. The discussion also highlights the accessibility of loose parts play for all children, regardless of abilities, and provides tips for implementing loose parts safely in classrooms or homes.

Key Topics Discussed:

• The Philosophy of Loose Parts Play: Why loose parts aren’t prescriptive and how they foster a mindset of exploration and curiosity.
• Nature as Loose Parts: How to use natural elements like sticks, leaves, rocks, and even living creatures to engage children.
• Loose Parts and Fine Motor Skills: The unique benefits of physical interaction with diverse materials over screen-based learning for children’s development.
• Safety Tips for Loose Parts Play: Guidelines for using loose parts with young children, including ideas for mitigating choking hazards and using tools safely.
• Accessible Play for All Abilities: How loose parts create inclusive learning environments that meet children’s diverse needs and sensory preferences.

Quotes:

• "Loose parts are more than just stuff; they’re an invitation to wonder, discover, and invent." — Dr. Carla Gull
• "The natural world is accessible to everyone. There’s nature even in a crack in the sidewalk." — Dr. Laura Wilhelm

Additional Resources:

• Loose Parts Alive by Dr. Carla Gull and Dr. Laura Wilhelm
• Loose Parts Nature Play Podcast hosted by Dr. Carla Gull
• Free download: Developing a Loose Parts Mindset Guide (provided by Kaplan)
• Related Titles from Gryphon House Books: Loose Parts Learning in K-5 Classrooms, Naturally Inclusive by Ruth Wilson, and more.

Connect with Us:

• Listen to more episodes of Early Childhood Chapters by subscribing on your favorite podcast platform.
• Follow Gryphon House Books (@ghbooks on major channels) for the latest on early childhood education resources and new releases.

Episode Transcript

Emily Garman: Carla Gull and Laura Wilhelm, welcome to early childhood chapters. I'm excited to talk to you today about your new book, Loose Parts Alive, published by Gryphon House. So let's just get right into it. One of the things I thought about when I was reading your book, what I kind of expecting to read, was, here are what loose parts are, and here's how to use them.

But it's not that kind of book, and it isn't really even talking about HOW you should use loose parts with children, because that is the nature of loose parts at all. It's not prescriptive in any way. It's more illustrative of a whole philosophy of just thinking about the way we interact with children and present materials to them, and even just thinking about education.

So I'm wondering if we could start out with you talking about that a little bit, what you hope to accomplish with the book, why you wrote the book.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah, thanks. So just loose parts. That's a big topic, oftentimes misunderstood. I have a large Facebook group, over 140,000 people from around the world. And lots of times, you know, people come in not as used to these loose parts kind of mindset. They're like a loose parts of small things on top of a table, like no loose parts can be so much more than that.

And so this concept of loose parts alive, that kind of came out, both Laura and I have done a lot of work in the national context with children, and, I've also done some research on other classrooms and loose parts, with preschoolers. And with that, in our research, we found, interesting things coming up as part of the research like, a person's body could become another variable in the environment.

The environment itself became some of the loose parts, invitations that were there as well. And things that were alive, like roly poly and such were part of that. And so, as Laura and I started chatting about possibilities for this, that concept of loose parts of life in that, living aspect of it.

There is a quote that we have in the book by Simon Nicholson, who kind of coined maybe the phrase “loose parts,” though the concept of loose parts has been around for ever. The first time someone picked up a rock or a stick and used it for something different. But he has this quote in there that I think is very expansive of what loose parts could be. In training. I share this, and people kind of like have an audible gasp at times.

He said, “there's evidence that all children love to interact with variables such as materials and shapes, smells and other physical phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity, media such as gases and fluids, sounds, music and motion, chemical interactions, cooking and fire, and other people and animals, plants, words, concepts and ideas.”

He says, “with all these things, all children love to play, experiment, discover and invent and have fun. All these things have one thing in common, which is variables are loose parts.” So to me, this is much more than wooden things that aren't painted, that are pre-scripted that children can interact with, but brings in the whole environment and concepts and words and ideas. That is a much more expansive, loose parts mindset than just “stuff,” if that makes sense.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Yeah. And I would just add that in talking about this book, I especially have a passion for working with teachers of young children and helping them get over that sort of hesitation in, presenting science activities, especially for our youngest children. So with this, we have lots of possibilities for low cost and no cost. I had someone correct me that nothing from nature is no cost.

So we'll say low cost when we're talking about things like sticks and rocks and acorns and pine cones, but the unscripted, open ended nature of materials. We can think about it as the reason children like playing with the box better than the toy, because toys are often plastic and they have a similar smell and texture and similar surface temperature, where a pine cone is going to have very interesting little holes that your finger might fit in.

If you dip it in water, it'll close up and then it'll open again. So there's lots of science possibilities. It's going to have an interesting earthy smell. It's going to have an unusual texture that very young children very often don't have an opportunity to experience. And so with this book, we especially wanted to focus, because we both have other books that sort of define loose parts and tell why that's a good idea. So with this book, we really wanted to get into plants and animals as loose parts, along with other concepts of that loose parts mindset.

Emily Garman: I never thought about things like, yes, natural objects, twigs and leaves and rocks and things, but our bodies or animals or plants, things that are alive and and even things that can move on their own!

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah. One thing that I think that is a key part of this conversation is that, we're interacting with something that is living, that's breathing, and part of that, it needs to be done with wonder, curiosity, respect and honoring that. It's another living being. And so we don't want to do anything that would harm that animal or plant in ways that would be detrimental to its existence, just for our pleasure.

But they are variables in our environment. And so and we talk about death, decay and decomposition and at what point, you know, once we see a flower that's alive, but then we pick it is that when it becomes a loose part, you know, so there are some questions there. But sometimes we may be observing an animal and then we have plastic toy animals or wooden toy animals that we can play with, with other loose parts. And we're taking the perspective of the animal through those things, but we're using the live animal that we're seeing as part of that. And for smaller critters and things, we may be using tools to help us observe carefully and release back into nature, so that they can still have their own existence as part of that.

And so it's a little bit of a mindset shift, thinking that all of the things around us that we are part of nature and we are part of the natural environment around us that are living beings, this other than human world, that's existing around us, and we can interact with it in a loose parts mindset in a respectful way that also allows us to explore and experiment and have that curiosity and wonder and awe as part of it.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Yeah. And I would just add, we want to be very respectful of the natural environment so that when we collect sticks and rocks, we can put them back again. I noticed, in some of the Texas state parks, they, caution about puddles of water because they're, because they're going to be microcosms. They are so just being mindful and respectful of the natural environments, when we go out in them, I think is important to remember.

Emily Garman: I really liked what you said, Carla. A loose parts mindset. Children have a way of not assigning a particular and limited role of what an object is, or what it can do, or what it can be. Whereas adults we have lost that, I think a little bit. To think a stick could be so many different things and different kinds of play. And so with that loose parts mindset, we encourage that creativity.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah, I love it. And we do have a resource with Kaplan about developing loose parts mindset that's free and downloadable, if anybody's interested in that as well. But, you know, some of those principles are just that experimentation and exploration, allowing the children to help co-create the spaces, and adding water, just, you know, transforms everything that we do in responsible ways, including water in our existence, our outdoor spaces and things like that.

Emily Garman: The idea of this loose parts mindset, this way of presenting materials to kids, it's very accessible, I think. In a lot of philosophies of education, there's this idea that, well, in order to do Montessori or order to do Waldorf, or in order to do this or that, we must purchase all of these specific and expensive materials. And unless it's this type of object and this type of item, it can't really be, the “right” way to do it.

And this just turns that on its end. You know, it says you go outside, you find what's there. Anybody could do that, whether you live in the middle of a big city, in an apartment building, whether you're in the country, in a school building with a huge budget or no budget, it's totally accessible. And I love that about it. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Yeah. And I would say not just outdoors, but also in your house. If you look around, you've probably got really interesting things, and your friends and your coworkers probably have really interesting things that they'd be happy to share or donate, so that children can explore them. I know, one director I was visiting, a teacher had brought in a bunch of mason jar rings for canning, for home canning, and she said, I didn't know what the children would do with them, so I put them out.

Well, the children had wonderful ideas. This was a preschool classroom. And of course, one of the first things was putting them on their arm so that they had an arm load of bracelets. But then pretty soon they were finding what fits inside, how they can arrange them into shapes and make pictures from all the circles, and making the circles concentric, seeing, you know the wide mouth that fits inside the regular, putting the lids matching the lids to the rings.

Just so many possibilities. And because they're metal, they've got an interesting taste. They've got an interesting texture, they've got an interesting smell. So when we take that idea of just a jar ring, you know, that, you wouldn't even think about and all the possibilities, then take that into the natural world or bring the natural world inside. Think about all the things you can explore in all the ways in your food items, in your kitchen, from items, in your cupboard or closet, that you might not think about, and you might not know.

How would a child use a cork? But children will have an idea. And so it's sort of, stepping back as a teacher and trusting the child, trusting they're having the wonderful ideas, which is a concept that Eleanor Duckworth, who was a student of John Piaget, she used and she has a book called The Having of Wonderful Ideas. But it's really about us stepping back and letting children have a wonderful idea, just presenting the materials and trusting them.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah, I happen to have jars right next to me. I have no idea. Small office that’s not even mine, so. But yeah, I was playing with it in all kinds of ways. It can do all kinds of things, and our bodies become part of the ways that we manipulate it, and experiment and explore with it as well.

I really appreciate that. And it can be a lovely leveling factor that it's very accessible for everybody. And at the same time, some spaces in more urban areas don't have as much of this, but we can grow those parts, we can grow things that then become consumables that we're using as part of our programing.

And then also I, I've been doing some programing as an outdoor educator in a local preschool where they have very good volunteers that pick up all the leaves and all the sticks. So it's pristine. So I bring in sticks, bags of sticks with me, just so that we have some additional options while we're there, for play and such.

Well, I did also want to add caution around whether it is a low cost, no cost kind of thing. And it's also okay to spend money on tools and resources that are going to be durable for us to use with children over the long haul kind of thing. I know that I've found a lot of things that are free that then broke and then became hazards.

And so I did just do a podcast episode recently about why it may be okay to buy, loose parts from time to time. And I know that, as far as, like, products in the natural world and such, there are different study materials and tools that can help us interact and understand the natural world, that are durable and easy to use with children.

Laura and I both have been working with product development with Guidecraft and Kaplan, to have some support materials along those things. So like we have some loose part STEM kits, that have natural items and tools, really cool bug jars and things like that. Do we have to have those to have good experiences outside?

Not at all. But if we have some grant money and it's within our budget and we want some good, durable materials, there are some products out there.

Emily Garman: I'm glad you mentioned that because obviously I've seen the Kaplan materials, the kits, and I know you were both involved in developing those, but the materials in those kits, they're natural items and, and some of them are very exotic seed pods and types of wood that we might not see even in just in the United States at all.

So that's interesting in itself. But they're also, treated in such a way. I mean, they're natural items, but they're treated in such a way that they're really durable and they're, clean and they're kind of uniform in that you've got maybe eight of the same sort of similar shapes and feel of wood in there. So it's good for a classroom setting where the kids will be kind of sharing these items. And, you know, there's something to be said for having a kit. It's pretty fun. I like kits.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: And, I actually have a website all about kits and such as well. So that's out there and available, loose parts kits and collections and how they can be helpful for us. And we can create those as well. And so we can get a divided tray, and/or purchase a divided tray that stacks with other ones and things. There is that one through Kaplan. But, we can create our own collections of loose parts with the children using responsible harvesting techniques and such as well. So we don't want to take more than our fair share. We want to make sure we leave plenty of acorns for the squirrels and those kinds of things.

Emily Garman: Usually when you talk to people about this, you say people have really concerns right away about choking and small items that very young children could choke on. And so you describe to me a choke test; that there's a way, to determine what items size wise are appropriate to use for what ages of kids.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: All of us have touched a little bit on safety. And so I'm glad we're getting this into this podcast because it's very important we want our children to be safe. And for children under three especially, and then older children who may have issues with swallowing or tongue thrust so that they are more prone to choking, we need to first of all, supervise by sight and sound at all times, especially when they have small materials, but also for children under three.

It's just a good rule of thumb to have materials that would not fit entirely inside a paper towel tube. If that's the case, then if it's larger, then they're not going to choke. You can get something called a choke tube, which is just a clear Lucite, cylinder that you can test and see if things will fit entirely inside if they're smaller beads, seeds, things like that.

Make certain that you are near a child who's interacting with them, especially the child under three, or has swallowing issues so that you can supervise very closely. There's interactions. There are certain things that are more likely for children to choke on when they're eating. And so the same way you want to supervise closely, you want to slice grapes, carrot sticks, that kind of thing.

Some other safety issues that we want to make certain we address are things like varnishes and paints. If you're getting something used, either something you have something from a thrift store or garage sale, there may be concerns about the surface. And so unfinished wood, unpainted plastics are good because then you don't have to worry as much about there being lead content in the paint if you have something that you love, but you're not sure if it's safe, you can put it inside an orange juice bottle and just glue the lid on, and then the children can see it, explore it, and, know that they're safe because they're not putting that in their mouth.

Especially children under three, because they learn through all of their senses and touch and taste are big parts of those senses and smell like to get it close, to really explore it. It's just how they learn about the world. And we want to honor that and we want to make sure they're safe. You also want to check things regularly for rough edges, sharp edges; things like seashells can easily get chipped and have a very sharp edge.

And so just make that part of your routine as you're putting materials out, just check and see if anything's happened since the last time you use them, especially if you're sharing materials between teachers and a program or borrowing things because things happen.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Similarly, we have a section on safety and risk, kind of along with that. And so like taking for example sticks, sticks require a certain safety protocol around it. We also have an example of like fire and using fire with young children, fire engineers. And we have developmentally appropriate ways, outlined within the book of how we might explore that for two year olds that may be drawing with charcoal and mark making with that.

But as I've done research with my research colleagues, Tricia Rosengart and Suzanne Levinson. Goldstein. We've just ended this big study on fire. We found that the people that are using, like, live fire, with children, they're doing it for safety. And there's children that are, having those experiences are developing so many more additional safety, protocol and habits, than children that are just having a more traditional approach of stop, drop and roll, never touch anything.

You know, never touch a fire, match or anything like that. But they're also learning how to put fires out, how to talk to adults about, the fire that's around them and things like that. But going back to the stick example, sticks need space. And it does take a little bit of supervision and, I don't know, coming together with some group consensus of rules and how to use sticks around other people and just being aware of the other living beings around us.

And we have a stick with us. And so we have a whole section, with books related to sticks. And then also, just some protocol that we can use to allow stick play in a safe manner with children in their spaces to.

Emily Garman: I think the concept of playing with fire is such a great thing to talk about because of all the reasons you outlined it. If you haven't ever had a flame get a little bit out of control, you don't know what to do. You don't know what that experience is like. So the whole stop, drop and roll experience that we all got in school isn't really enough.

But you can obviously see how the the general response from parents and teachers and school districts would be no way. Absolutely not. We're not going to have these kids playing with fire. That's not going to happen. But that is an example of that loose parts mindset. And just thinking about how kids can safely engage in in risk that is age appropriate, developmentally appropriate and important for them, then that's a nice little segue for what I wanted to talk a little bit about next.

A lot of people are saying kids are getting the fine motor skills and practice that they need through electronics, through precise movements on a tablet or in video games, but it seems that the evidence bears out that physically interacting with objects particularly richly sensory objects, for example, twigs or a piece of bark have so much more information for our senses in our brains than what you describe Laura, a plastic toy which is smooth and uniform. How does the whole loose parts mindset and what you're advocating, particularly with natural materials, enhance a child's fine motor skill development? And is that even more important now in this age where we are on screens and our kids are on screens so much more than ever before?

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Because the screen is two dimensional, the children are not getting information that they need to build their knowledge base. I always remember a story of fifth graders who lived in Arizona where it didn't snow, and my professor was a teacher who would take them on a bus when it did snow an hour away so they could actually experience snow, many of them for the first time in their lives.

And she said, every year there'll be a child say, “but it's cold!” Because they knew snow. They had seen it on TV. They'd seen it in books. They knew that it was white, that it covers the earth. But they didn't realize it would be cold because they didn't experience it. And I think that's the risk of children experiencing nature on a screen, is they're getting some aspects, but they're not getting the 3D real life 4D interaction.

And they're not getting also the social interaction, which we are more isolated as humans than we've ever been. If you go to a family reunion, you will see at least some of the people on their phone. If you go out to dinner, you will see at least some tables where people are on their phone. They're not talking to each other, they're not interacting.

And when we're not doing that with young children, we're not building the social skills that they're going to need in their life. So this is a wonderful opportunity for learning to get along with other people. What if you want that stick and I want that stick? We're going to have to develop some skills to work that out. I think the real life is the opportunity here.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah. Additionally, there's been some popular memes going around about hand development. And, you know, how are the hands not fully developed to later and before a child has a, you know, a pencil or a pen in their hand that they should be using those hands to, interact with so many different materials, such as mud, water, clay, even feathers.

You know, all of those are different tactile experiences that help build those muscles and this fine motor skills so that they're ready to use scissors and pencils later on. They need lots and lots of opportunities to use those hands in potentially messy situations. It doesn't always have to be messy, but with rocks and sticks and mud and clay and all of those things.

Yeah, and not just the muscles we need to develop the muscles, but also the eye hand coordination and the big body movements that are going to happen when we're interacting with things we need to move and things we maybe need to work together to move. So we're going to have to coordinate that.

The sensory aspect of it as well. I know that it seems like there's been a little uptick in some sensory processing, issues with certain children. And so having a variety of experiences that they can choose to interact with at their own level and their own pace, sensory experiences, and then perhaps encouraging them to expand that over time can be very powerful, for them to just get used to the world around them.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: And think about scaffolding that because some children are going to be very sensory defensive and they're not going to want to touch a worm, and they're not some of them won't want to touch dirt. So think about if you could have a paintbrush that they could use to still be part of the play, but maybe not have to get their hand in where they're not comfortable until they're comfortable?

Food handlers gloves can work really well. I was talking with a person yesterday who had been talking with a child care provider who was absolutely averse to dirt. She didn't want dirt around. She didn't want it in her house. She didn't want it part of her program. And so, my friend was able to get her to try hydroponics.

Now she's growing plants with the children like crazy! So they're getting good experiences. She's comfortable because she knows her limits. She knows what her triggers are. And so I think this can look different for every teacher, for every child. It's customized, usable, to meet everyone's needs.

Emily Garman: And that dovetails into my next question, which is another way that that this kind of play and this kind of thinking about education and learning is accessible to all children, wherever they are in terms of any disabilities or sensory issues or mobility issues, there is a way to get children into nature, bring nature to them. I can't really think of a situation where we couldn't make this work for every child. So it's not only available to kids who have the ability to interact physically with different kinds of materials. I'm interested to know more about that too. How it levels the playing field for every child.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah, I love that the same loose parts can be used by different children of different abilities because they can approach it wherever they are developmentally, and so they have their own unique ideas and ways of interacting with it that are, specific for them. With that open ended factor, they can use it however they want to. There is another book called Naturally Inclusive by Ruth Wilson, that also tackles this topic a little bit and in a great way.

But really it's flexible to have to exercise. This was the loose parts mindset for any of us and our children, of all their abilities, can interact with the natural world in ways that are meaningful for them.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Yeah. And I think knowing the children you work with, sometimes you won't know the allergies, especially if they're young. So you can know what common allergies are. Lots of people are allergic to cedar. So if you want to introduce them to cedar, maybe put it in a bag and seal it so that they can see it, sort of feel it, but then not necessarily have to breathe it.

I would also say when I was in Scotland last summer visiting preschool programs, that they had lots of interventions for children on the autism spectrum. And what they found was the children are generally more comfortable outdoors in nature. There's not as much pressure to behave a certain way, and noises are a little bit, more acceptable.

The centers that I visited had a policy where there were teachers indoors and outdoors during open playtime, which was for at least an hour, children could be indoors playing with materials that were set out for them, or they could be outdoors playing with materials.

So I watched a bunch of two and three year olds making potions. They would send other children off to get a weed or some more water or something for their potion. One child was wearing goggles and they had big spoons and they were stirring in pots, and they had small containers they were pouring. When I got there, they were working on the potions. When I went all the way through the school and I was going back out, I looked through the window. They were still the same. Children were still working on this potion!

So I think this idea of, attention span being limited is really limited by the materials that are available. And our expectations for children, if we respect their ideas and allow them to follow with their ideas, instead of saying, hey, come look at this, put that away, come do this, but really let them follow their ideas, explorations, they're going to learn more deeply. They're going to make better connections. And also the social interaction, the skills they were developing to work together, to achieve their goals was amazing to watch.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: You kind of asked a little bit, in your questions and such too, like, why do we need this now? Part of our nature, our DNA, we have been selected through time, for interaction with the natural world. And so it's part of our DNA to climb trees, to interact with sticks, to, use fire and some of those kinds of things.

And we've been moving away from this, even though it's part of who we are. And there is also, a tendency for children to be a little bit afraid of nature. And that's not been the case in the past. Children have this innate biophilia. They want to be in the natural world, and they're curious about it.

But they may have just had experiences that made it, through unknowingly, the adults around them or whatever, that it's not a safe space. But it really can be a place of learning and playful interactions and exploration, just that environmental literacy. They're learning to care for and be stewards of the world around them as they interact with it.

Sometimes I will also, teach about different plants that we want to protect, like the trillium. If we pick that the whole plant can die, and it takes seven years to where it can produce flowers and things of that sort. It's a special flower, and we want to treat it in a special way. But we also have other plants like periwinkle that grow, it's an invasive species, that shouldn't be there and takes over an area quickly.

Like, these are flowers that you can pick as many of these ones as you want to. And then also kind of intentionally growing things and with a sensory mindset. So like, mint grows prolifically. Those are things I don't mind if children, use as part of their mud explorations and things like that. So there are different things that we treat, in different ways, because of how we interact in the environment with those.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: And I would just add, Carla, because you are very good at identifying what a plant is, some of us may be a little more hesitant or worried that we might do something wrong. And so there are wonderful apps now that will help you identify a plant, that will help you identify birdsong if you just hear it. So that if you're hesitant, like, well, I don't really know all this stuff, you can learn and it's easier than ever.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Yeah. We become guides on the side instead of sages on the stage, and we're learning and exploring alongside the children. That doesn't mean that we're not intentional with provocations and using our good teaching skills, to have environments that allow for that exploration, that learning to happen. But one other point on this topic is, you know, we are looking at this climate change in this looming, potentially dire situation.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: And our children today are the ones that are going to be stuck with some of the problems that we've been creating. And so if we can help them develop that love of nature now, in developmentally appropriate ways, we don't have to do all the doom gloom right now. But we can help them develop that loving nature now, and they'll be good stewards of it as they continue in their lives.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: Maybe you feel like, oh, I don't really have nature because I don't have pine trees, or I don't have a national park outside my playground. That's okay, because you do have nature. WE are nature. There's nature in the cracks, in the sidewalk, in the city. You may hear bird sound. You may have potted plants that you can bring in if you don't have a place for a garden.

So there's always possibilities to add more nature, to have more nature. And whatever you have, if you have a desert, there's all sorts of life in a desert. Once you look for it, maybe you have ocean, maybe you have mountains. Maybe you're like me and you're on the prairie. We have clay soil. We have grasses, all sorts of grasses that we can learn to identify. So it's really about seeing your place and valuing what exists where you are, and not worrying so much about what you don't have because you do have something.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: We all have the sky! in those examples that Laura just shared, this is place based learning about the environment that we have, right? Wherever we may be.

Emily Garman: That's terrific. We're going to put links down in the show notes to the other books that you all have written on this topic, and it it is a whole movement, really. There is a lot of discussion about this as a philosophy of education, but also specific activities. And Carla, you have a podcast about loose parts. Tell me a little bit about your podcast.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: It's called Loose Parts Nature Play. I couldn't quite separate the loose parts from the nature or the play, so I have conversations about all of that. Some of the upcoming episodes are actually going to be conversations with some of the programs that we've highlighted in the book as well. So if you want to get to know a few of those people and things that are also included, there'll be some episodes with that.

And there are all kinds of podcast episodes about where to find loose parts, getting started with loose parts, just those nuts and bolts kinds of things. And then also a lot around nature and getting outside and then obviously around play as well. So all kind of together, I can't separate them. Also, I did the podcast all around the three of those concepts.

Emily Garman: Great. Well that's fantastic. I have just really enjoyed our talk today. You've given us so many things to think about. As a parent who's done a lot of this, I can really say it's very fun, too. It is much more fun than playing Barbies with your kid or something! It's a lot more fun, I think, for me at least, to get out and look at rocks.

And who would think that you could build an academic career? I mean, when you were a little kid, did you ever think I'm going to do legitimate academic research on tree climbing and fire? I just think that's amazing. What a cool thing.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: It wasn't even on my radar. I just kept saying yes to opportunities and found that I enjoy it and enjoy helping other people understand, it’s based on the research as well.

Laura Gull, Ph.D.: One of my favorite experiences was the International Play Association conference back probably 15, 20 years ago. And there was a man there who had spent his whole career studying young children playing with sand, and he had developmental stages of sand play from when they're just first touching it to five and six year olds using trowels and scaffolds. And I thought, wow, if your whole career could be just learning how young children play with sand and expanding that, then all possibilities are open, right?

Every single thing that children are doing with nature, with loose parts in the environment, we can tie all this usually back into some kind of state standard that a teacher has to meet, because they just have to kind of think outside of the box that that just includes a worksheet in a desk activity.

Carla Gull, Ph.D.: Or loose parts learning in a K through three classrooms book that really dives into having a standards-based curriculum and being able to use those parts as part of meeting those standards. It can be done.

Laura Wilhelm, Ph.D.: And what's important is a worksheet isolates one skill. Interacting with loose parts has that social-emotional learning going on. It has the whatever skill you're targeting happening. But then lots of other things are happening at the same time. So maybe you want them to learn rhythm and they're, you know, experimenting with various things outdoors like a pole.

And so they're getting that, but they're also noticing the difference in temperature between a tree trunk and a pole. They're learning, the differences in sound depending on how hard you hit it or what spot you hit it. And so they're getting lots of information as well as the information just coming in. Is there a bird in the environment? Is there a squirrel?

Where a worksheet is one isolated skill. So really, it's more efficient for learning. And when you're having fun when you're learning, then the little dendrites are wiggling in your brain. They're making stronger connections. They're strengthening those neural pathways so that the learning is more applicable to other situations, rather than just about one and done.

Emily Garman: All right. Well, have a great rest of your day. I'll talk to you soon.