Carey Nieuwhof - Churchfront Leadership Podcast

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Carey Nieuwhof Interview - Podcast Notes

Overview

Conversation with Carey Nieuwhof about the shift in modern church worship from entertainment-focused to encounter-focused experiences, live streaming strategy, and church growth in the digital age.

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Key Themes

1. The Shift: Entertainment vs. Encounter

The Problem with Modern Church Production

• Social media created a "copycat phase" where churches could suddenly see what megachurches were doing
• Churches adopted same equipment, same songs, same production values
• What was unique became ubiquitous - "we all became copies of each other"
• Gen Z is "the most marketed to generation in human history" and numb to production

Quote: "Gen Z is the most marketed to generation in human history. And we're all kind of numb to the production. I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope."

What People Actually Want

• Something real and tangible
• An experience of God, not just information about God
• Presence, not just presentation
• Transformation over information

The Internet's Limitation

• Really good at delivering information (especially with AI)
• Cannot facilitate an encounter
• "There's something that happens in the room that doesn't happen online"

2. What "Encounter Over Entertainment" Looks Like

The Tonal Shift

• Worship leaders being more sensitive to what's happening in the room, not just rehearsed transitions
• Preachers leaving space, not just hitting time marks
• Paying attention to what God might be doing (people crying, leaning in, visible reactions)
• Creating space to breathe

Silence and Space

• "When I started in ministry, my goal was to get rid of as much silence in church as I could"
• Now: "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church"
• Don't have to fill every moment with words
• Can be silent or "noodle" on instruments while creating space

Quote: "People's lives are so noisy and so crowded. I mean, we don't even sleep without white noise machines or anything like that. So where else are you going to get silence?"

Evoke vs. Manipulate

• Can't plan a revival - it happens or it doesn't
• Job is to "set the table" and make space for the Holy Spirit
• Example: Great movies evoke genuine tears by accessing real emotions
• Cheap manipulation feels different

Quote: "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke, to say, 'I'm going to set the table. I can't control the Holy Spirit.'"

3. The Liturgy Issue

Modern Church is "Liturgically Malnourished"

• Liturgy = order of service (not an outdated term)
• Modern church handles joy and praise well
• Missing: contemplation, confession, lamentation, reflection
• Lost practices: prayers of confession, prayers of the people

Carey's Confession

• Presbyterian background included prayers of approach and confession
• As church became attractional, prayer became "just an opportunity to clear the set for the sermon"
• Regrets thin prayers: "God, it's so good to be here today. We thank you so much. Amen."

Quote: "It's like confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. We don't do that anymore. What if we did that?"

Not Either/Or, But Both/And

• Keep good lighting, sound, production, and musicians who can play
• Add breathing room, texture, color, tone, mood
• Use liturgical calendar and historic practices adapted to modern context
• Don't approach Sunday as "slots to fill"

Creative Freedom

• 52 Sundays = 52 blank canvases
• Already do this well at Easter and Christmas
• Can be more creative without confusing people

Example: Good Friday Service

• Ended in darkness with no announcement
• Faded to black and stayed there
• People sat in uncomfortable silence, then slowly left
• "I wanted them to feel that discomfort... if you can even get a small sampling of that"
• Easter Sunday picked up in darkness, then sunrise/resurrection

4. Live Streaming Strategy

Who Should Live Stream?

• Not every church needs to live stream everything
• Need good musicians to sound great online (around 400-500 attendance to have talent base)
• Need separate mix for online vs. in-house
• Poor production = "school play" - only interesting to those directly involved

Quote: "A lot of churches, and these are well-meaning, beautiful Christian people. If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play."

Alternatives

• Stream just the message
• On-demand after, mixed in post-production
• Audio only if video isn't good
• Consider what strangers stumbling on feed would think

The Discovery Argument

• Pre-COVID minority of churches streamed
• Now "everybody you want to reach is online"
• "All of non-Christian America, all the nuns, all the duns, all the atheists, all the agnostics, they're on the internet"
• Can't remember last time truly unchurched person hadn't watched online for weeks/months before visiting

The New Foyer

• Online is now the foyer, not the physical lobby
• People investigate online before visiting
• By the time they show up, they're ready to go "further, faster"
• "They've already done their investigating. They've already asked ChatGPT all the questions"

5. Practical Service Design

Handling Growth Pressure

• Multiple services create pressure to program everything tightly
• Solution: Trim 5 minutes from sermon
• Do 60-minute service with breathing room between
• Create more lobby/connection space
• Leverage outdoor space (if climate allows)

Worship Set Strategy

• Don't need extended mix of everything
• Maybe two songs and a tag instead of three full songs
• "Sit in the tag for a while"
• Find the high-impact moments (example: bridge of "How Great Is Our God")
• Get to what matters, like talent shows do 90-second versions

Quote: "You don't have to do the extended mix of everything, the seven minute version, do the tag. That would be great. Space is something that you can do in three minutes if you know how to do it well."

Service Flow Examples

• Don't make people stand and greet (where else does that happen?)
• Have emotionally intelligent people on doors, not just available people
• Greet people the way THEY want to be greeted
• Consider kids moments, announcements, communion as natural transitions
• Call to commitment/involvement comes sooner now than 10 years ago

6. Online Presence Best Practices

Website Design

• Design for new people first
• Show service times and location prominently (mobile friendly)
• Staff page is #3 most viewed - people want to see "are there people like me?"
• Use accurate photos (don't show 27-year-olds if congregation is 70+)
• Show actual diversity if you have it

Quote (Seth Godin): "Culture is people like us do things like this. So what people are looking for, are there people like us?"

Content Strategy

• Lead with best sermons, not just latest
• Most popular videos should be easy to find
• People don't care if it's from 2 years ago (still watching The Office)
• Have robust FAQ section for unchurched questions
• Position yourself for lost people, not just members

7. The Current Moment

The Harvest is Ripe

• People are seeking more than maybe in past decade or two
• Culture is saturated with production - not the competitive edge anymore
• Mental health crisis caused by social media
• People desperate for something real

What to Do

1. Pray for it (spiritual activity)
2. Make newcomer journey easy
3. Take them somewhere when they show up
4. Go deeper faster - they're ready

Quote: "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us. They found a really cool song, they found a really great message, but they didn't actually find God in the midst of it."

Give Them Meat

• Reference to Tara-Lee Cobble and The Bible Recap
• Provide historical context (helps Christians AND non-Christians)
• Don't be afraid to go deep on sin, gospel, redemption
• Write/speak in accessible "street Greek" like the New Testament

Example Opening: "Hey, we're going back 3000 years. And there was a guy named David who was King of Israel. He was trying to keep the kingdom united because there was a north and a south. You can relate to that. These are divided times..."

Quote (Tim Keller): "It's worse than you can possibly imagine and better than you can possibly dream."

8. Leadership Advice

For Young Church Staff (25-40)

Navigating Frustration with Leadership

1. Write down actual issues you're facing (budget, staffing, expertise)
2. Present respectfully, thoughtfully, submissively
3. Good leaders will either provide resources or adjust priorities

Identifying Toxic Culture

• Unrealistic expectations
• Unsympathetic to staff needs
• Expects 60-hour weeks with no life
• Toxic leader will get mad/defensive when approached

Options in Toxic Environment

• Respectfully approach and share difficulties
• Accept the glass ceiling and stay
• Build healthy team within unhealthy body (temporary solution)
• Leave - "unhealthy bodies drive out healthy cells"

Interview Questions for New Positions

• Ask to talk to current staff (not the pastor)
• Ask to talk to FORMER staff
• Find out who left and why
• Read Google reviews
• Have meals/experiences together (reveals character under pressure)

Quote: "Ask around, ask if you have permission. Don't ask the pastor. Don't ask the pastor. Are you healthy? The toxic people, 'I'm so healthy.'"

9. Team Building & Growth

Hiring Philosophy

• Only hire A players
• C players: you know immediately (late, unmotivated, incomplete work) - should be gone
• B players: good but not great - "it's too bad but we'll survive"
• A players: if they quit you'd need 3 people to replace them

Quote (Netflix): "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package."

A Player Test If they knocked on the door saying "this is my last day," how do you react?

• C player: "Thank goodness, now I don't have to fire them"
• B player: "Too bad but we'll survive"
• A player: "Grabbing the waste basket and throwing up"

Growth Wisdom

• Don't settle on staff because you're panicking
• Will eventually become bloated with no profit
• Profit = "permission to do this again tomorrow" (Seth Godin)
• Most businesses fail not from lack of vision but lack of cash
• Use tools like Working Genius to find right fit
• Don't just find A players - find A players with gifts your team needs

Cultural Values

• Write them down and review regularly
• Ritz-Carlton: 26 values, reviewed 2-3 daily in team meetings
• Use to evaluate: "Where are we winning/losing with our values?"
• Catch team members exemplifying values
• Values help instill culture as org chart grows

10. Upcoming Projects

Carey's New Book

• Topic: AI and the Future Church
• Thesis: "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians"
• Church's future direction is human connection
• Expected publication: 2026

Latest Book

• "At Your Best" - about time, energy, and priorities

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Notable Statistics & Data Points

• 72% of teenagers have tried AI chatbots
• 31% prefer AI companionship to human companions
• Pre-COVID: minority of churches streamed services
• Can't recall single unchurched person who didn't watch online for weeks/months before visiting
• Around 400-500 attendance: churches start having talent base for good production
• 80-95% of church growth in America is conversion growth (not transfer)
• Top 3 website pages: Homepage, Messages, Staff/About

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Production Quality Basics

Good Enough to Stream

• Great singing (doesn't need to be phenomenal)
• Decent lights
• Pretty good mix
• Can work with church of 150-200 with good coaching
• Everything else can be helped with technology

Bare Minimum

• Great guitarist + great vocalist = "off to the races"
• Don't feel pressure to have full mediocre band
• Add musicians as you find/afford great ones

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Practical Takeaways

1. Create space in services - silence, breathing room, sensitivity to the room
2. Recover lost liturgical practices - confession, lamentation, contemplation
3. Go deeper faster - people are ready for meat, not just milk
4. Design for online discovery - unchurched people are investigating you
5. Lead with best content - not just latest content
6. Only hire A players - don't panic hire when growing
7. Build real human connection - counter to increasingly artificial world
8. Make newcomer journey easy - they're ready to engage quickly
9. Be creative with 52 Sundays - not just slots to fill
10. Focus on encounter over entertainment - production supports experience, doesn't replace it

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Questions for Further Reflection

• How can we create more space for confession in our services?
• What would it look like to "evoke" rather than "manipulate" in worship?
• Are we positioning our online presence for unchurched discovery?
• Is our production supporting encounter or replacing it?
• What emotions are people carrying into our services, and how do we acknowledge that?
• Are we moving too fast for the Holy Spirit to work?

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Memorable Quotes

"I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope."

"People aren't looking for more information. They're looking for presence, not just presentation."

"The internet is really good at information, especially with AI. You want to know anything, you can find out anything, but the internet can't really facilitate an encounter."

"It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke."

"Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church."

"If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play."

"Everybody you want to reach is online."

"Your foyer has moved online."

"People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us."

"As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians."

"Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package."

"Profit is permission to do this again tomorrow."