When Willpower Isn’t Enough, with John Ortberg
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Release Date: 08/19/2025
Love at the Margins, with Tom Crisp
Conversing with Mark Labberton
What are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through...
info_outline
When Willpower Isn’t Enough, with John Ortberg
Conversing with Mark Labberton
“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on...
info_outline
Black and Evangelical, with Vincent Bacote
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work...
info_outline
Faithful Ecological Science, with Ben Lowe
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific...
info_outline
Restoring a Credible Christian Witness, with Jemar Tisby and Nikki Toyama-Szeto
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching,...
info_outline
After the Fire, with Megan Katerjian, Kerwin Manning, and Mayra Macedo-Nolan
Conversing with Mark Labberton
In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the...
info_outline
The Church of the Future, with Kara Powell and Raymond Chang
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches...
info_outline
Gospel Music Genius, with Stephen Newby and Robert Darden
Conversing with Mark Labberton
With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and co-authors of the...
info_outline
Walking and Spirituality, with Cherie Harder
Conversing with Mark Labberton
During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and...
info_outline
Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus, with Reggie Williams
Conversing with Mark Labberton
For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s...
info_outline“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on why human will is insufficient, why churches struggle to embody desperation, and how communities of honesty and grace can become places of real healing.
Episode Highlights
- “Habit eats willpower for breakfast.”
- “The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can’t, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God.”
- “If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve.”
- “Desperation really is a gift.”
- “Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Find more from John Ortberg at becomenew.com
- John Ortberg, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough
- Dallas Willard, Renovation of the Heart
- Kent Dunnington, Addiction and Virtue: Beyond the Models of Disease and Choice
- Stephen R. Haynes, Why Can't Church Be More Like an AA Meeting?
About John Ortberg
John Ortberg is a pastor, speaker, and bestselling author dedicated to spiritual formation and transformation. He served as senior pastor at Menlo Church from 2003 to 2020, and has written numerous books, including The Life You’ve Always Wanted and Faith & Doubt. He studied at Wheaton College and Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a trustee at Fuller. His most recent book, Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough, reframes the Twelve Steps as a wisdom tradition for all seeking deeper life with God.
Show Notes
- The Nature of Willpower and Habit
- John Ortberg reflects on Dallas Willard’s framework for understanding persons.
- “Habit eats willpower for breakfast.”
- The human will is essential, but terrifically weak when confronting sin, ego, or deep habits.
- The Gift of Desperation and the Twelve Steps
- First step: “We admitted we were powerless.”
- “The first step is a deeply despairing step. I can’t, and it feels like hell and death—and that opens people up to God.”
- Desperation becomes a gateway to spiritual power.
- “If you have a wimpy step one, you will have wimpy steps two through twelve.”
- Comparing church and AA
- Ortberg: “Desperation really is a gift.”
- The church often resists being a community of desperation.
- Honesty is not the same as desperation; both are needed for transformation.
- Why AA’s structure works: fellowship plus program.
- “Failure and pain so often become helps in our meeting God.”
- Storytelling and Transformation
- Testimonies and stories at the center of AA’s power.
- Why narrative makes meaning for human life.
- “Story is the essential unit of meaning for personhood.”
- Spiritual Practices and Confession
- Step 5: “Confess to God, ourselves, and one other person the exact nature of our wrongs.”
- John recalls confessing to a close friend: “John, I love you more right now than I’ve ever loved you before.”
- The liberating power of being fully known and loved.
- Addiction, Sin, and Disease
- The debate: is addiction a disease, a habitus, or sin?
- Disease language reduces shame but risks erasing agency.
- The overlap of sin, brokenness, and habit.
- The challenge of shame, judgment, and superiority in church contexts.
- Fellowship and Program
- “If you have program but not fellowship, you’re dead. If you have fellowship but not program, there is no hope.”
- AA as a model for church life: communal honesty plus concrete practices.
- The gospel calls for grace-filled action, not passivity.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.