Conversing with Mark Labberton
What are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through...
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“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on...
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Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work...
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Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific...
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Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching,...
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In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the...
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Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches...
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With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and co-authors of the...
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During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and...
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For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s...
info_outlineWhat are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel?
Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE).
He describes participating in civil disobedience, forming solidarity with marginalized communities, and serving as a nonviolent presence in immigration courts where migrants face arrest and deportation. Through these stories, Crisp testifies to the cost and invitation of discipleship: following Jesus into the margins with courage, humility, and love.
Episode Highlights
- “What struck me was Jesus’s deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins. And it came to me as deeply convicting.”
- “I immersed myself in the writings of Dorothy Day… she's had an enormous influence on how I've come to think about what it would look like to be a Jesus follower in our context.”
- “I was having this very powerful sense of God’s presence, feeling broken by it, feeling like I’d hit a turning point in my life.”
- “If Jesus really is the Jesus of the margins that I’m seeing in the Gospels, then I need to figure out how to get to the margins.”
- “This isn't a matter of guilt, it’s invitation… we’re always being invited further in.”
- “When you’re with someone who’s been separated from their children, when you’re with someone who’s shaking with fear… it’s just a completely different thing.”
- “So a horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts, and it’s happening here in Orange County.”
- “We are trying to be a presence of love for everybody there.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE)
- Shalom Ethics: Loving Your Neighbor as Yourself, by Thomas M. Crisp
- The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical, by Shane Claiborne
About Tom Crisp
Tom Crisp is professor of philosophy at Biola University, specializing in ethics and justice. After completing his PhD at Notre Dame, Crisp shifted his academic work toward Christian ethics following a transformative religious experience in 2009. He is a community member of the Orange County Catholic Worker and active in Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE), advocating for immigrant and labour rights through nonviolent action and accompaniment.
Show Notes
- Religious Experience and Transformation
- Tom Crisp recounts his 2009 religious awakening while reading the Gospels.
- “Fire—my soul is blowing apart, I need to quit my job.”
- Realization of Jesus’s “deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins.”
- Movement from abstract philosophy to Neighbour Love Command.
- Catholic Worker movement and Dorothy Day
- Influence of Shane Claiborne’s The Irresistible Revolution and new monastic movement.
- Encounter with Dorothy Day’s writings as a model of radical discipleship.
- Involvement with the Orange County Catholic Worker community.
- Attraction to Catholicism
- Inspired by Notre Dame liturgy and Benedictine practices.
- Influenced by saints like St. Francis, Maximilian Kolbe, Oscar Romero.
- “As I spend time in Catholic spaces, I feel the presence of this cloud of witnesses.”
- CLUE and Nonviolent Action
- History of CLUE: founded by Rev. James Lawson, trained in Gandhian nonviolence, connected to Martin Luther King Jr.
- Focus on labour justice and immigrant rights.
- Training in nonviolent presence, civil disobedience, and accompaniment.
- Example: shutting down LAX in a five-hundred-person protest for hotel workers.
- Court Observation and Migrant Accompaniment
- CLUE partnership with Orange County Rapid Response Network.
- ICE arrests of migrants who believed they had lawful parole status.
- “A horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts.”
- Strategy of nonviolent presence to “dramatize bureaucratic and physical violence.”
- Clergy presence offers spiritual authority and comfort.
- Judges and ICE agents sometimes allow moments of prayer or comfort before deportation.
- “We want to accompany migrants into this dark, dark space and be there as a source of comfort to them.”
- Formation and Solidarity
- “When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who is shaking with fear … it’s just a completely different thing.”
- Experience of humility, solidarity, and courage among migrants and workers.
- Philosophy, theology, and action integrated in discipleship.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.