Conversing with Mark Labberton
Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn’t too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to...
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Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. “I couldn’t know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice.” In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political...
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As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. “It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol.” Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between...
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What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. “Ministry can be a lonely business.” In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of...
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Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control;...
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What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. “I don’t see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution...
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How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience. “People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?” In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centred Christian witness at work. Together they...
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As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve US presidents have “kicked the hornet’s nest” of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet’s Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and micro-clinic networks with the view from the...
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Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation’s 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary...
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In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community “Friendsgiving” potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and...
info_outlineWhat are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel?
Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE).
He describes participating in civil disobedience, forming solidarity with marginalized communities, and serving as a nonviolent presence in immigration courts where migrants face arrest and deportation. Through these stories, Crisp testifies to the cost and invitation of discipleship: following Jesus into the margins with courage, humility, and love.
Episode Highlights
- “What struck me was Jesus’s deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins. And it came to me as deeply convicting.”
- “I immersed myself in the writings of Dorothy Day… she's had an enormous influence on how I've come to think about what it would look like to be a Jesus follower in our context.”
- “I was having this very powerful sense of God’s presence, feeling broken by it, feeling like I’d hit a turning point in my life.”
- “If Jesus really is the Jesus of the margins that I’m seeing in the Gospels, then I need to figure out how to get to the margins.”
- “This isn't a matter of guilt, it’s invitation… we’re always being invited further in.”
- “When you’re with someone who’s been separated from their children, when you’re with someone who’s shaking with fear… it’s just a completely different thing.”
- “So a horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts, and it’s happening here in Orange County.”
- “We are trying to be a presence of love for everybody there.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE)
- Shalom Ethics: Loving Your Neighbor as Yourself, by Thomas M. Crisp
- The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical, by Shane Claiborne
About Tom Crisp
Tom Crisp is professor of philosophy at Biola University, specializing in ethics and justice. After completing his PhD at Notre Dame, Crisp shifted his academic work toward Christian ethics following a transformative religious experience in 2009. He is a community member of the Orange County Catholic Worker and active in Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice (CLUE), advocating for immigrant and labour rights through nonviolent action and accompaniment.
Show Notes
- Religious Experience and Transformation
- Tom Crisp recounts his 2009 religious awakening while reading the Gospels.
- “Fire—my soul is blowing apart, I need to quit my job.”
- Realization of Jesus’s “deep compassion, mercy, fiery concern for people in the margins.”
- Movement from abstract philosophy to Neighbour Love Command.
- Catholic Worker movement and Dorothy Day
- Influence of Shane Claiborne’s The Irresistible Revolution and new monastic movement.
- Encounter with Dorothy Day’s writings as a model of radical discipleship.
- Involvement with the Orange County Catholic Worker community.
- Attraction to Catholicism
- Inspired by Notre Dame liturgy and Benedictine practices.
- Influenced by saints like St. Francis, Maximilian Kolbe, Oscar Romero.
- “As I spend time in Catholic spaces, I feel the presence of this cloud of witnesses.”
- CLUE and Nonviolent Action
- History of CLUE: founded by Rev. James Lawson, trained in Gandhian nonviolence, connected to Martin Luther King Jr.
- Focus on labour justice and immigrant rights.
- Training in nonviolent presence, civil disobedience, and accompaniment.
- Example: shutting down LAX in a five-hundred-person protest for hotel workers.
- Court Observation and Migrant Accompaniment
- CLUE partnership with Orange County Rapid Response Network.
- ICE arrests of migrants who believed they had lawful parole status.
- “A horrific violation of human rights is happening around us in our immigration courts.”
- Strategy of nonviolent presence to “dramatize bureaucratic and physical violence.”
- Clergy presence offers spiritual authority and comfort.
- Judges and ICE agents sometimes allow moments of prayer or comfort before deportation.
- “We want to accompany migrants into this dark, dark space and be there as a source of comfort to them.”
- Formation and Solidarity
- “When you're with someone who's been separated from their children, when you're with someone who is shaking with fear … it’s just a completely different thing.”
- Experience of humility, solidarity, and courage among migrants and workers.
- Philosophy, theology, and action integrated in discipleship.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.