Conversing with Mark Labberton
Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn’t too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to...
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Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. “I couldn’t know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice.” In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political...
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As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. “It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol.” Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between...
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What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. “Ministry can be a lonely business.” In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of...
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Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control;...
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What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. “I don’t see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution...
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How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience. “People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?” In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centred Christian witness at work. Together they...
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As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve US presidents have “kicked the hornet’s nest” of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet’s Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and micro-clinic networks with the view from the...
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Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation’s 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary...
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In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community “Friendsgiving” potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and...
info_outlineHow can we address the problem of violence against the poor? International Justice Mission exists to answer this question by protecting and rescuing victims, bringing criminals to justice, restoring survivors to safety and strength, and helping local law enforcement build a safe future that lasts.
In this episode, International Justice Mission’s founder and CEO, Gary Haugen, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on almost three decades of IJM’s fight against violence and slavery worldwide—and the spiritual formation that sustains it. Haugen shares the origins of IJM in response to systemic violence against the poor, the evolution from individual rescues to transforming justice systems, and the remarkable rise of survivor leaders transforming their own nations. Together they reflect on courage, joy, and faith amid immense risk—bearing witness to God’s power to bring justice and healing through ordinary people.
Episode Highlights
- “Protecting the poor from violence is God’s weight, but it’s our work, and we're gonna seek to do it Jesus's way.”
- ”In this era, I just think what the world is aching to see is the followers of Jesus who have a incandescent freedom from fear and a life-giving joy.”
- “Most of this violence will go away if government does just even a decent job of enforcing the law.”
- “Our first commitment is to help each other become more like Jesus—and from that strength, to do justice.”
- “The greatest miracle of IJM is not only the results—it’s the freedom from fear and the joy with which they’ve done it.”
- “God saw them in their darkness, and they now testify to the goodness of an almighty God who loved them.”
Helpful Links and Resources
International Justice Mission – https://www.ijm.org
Gary Haugen, The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence –
https://www.amazon.com/Locust-Effect-Poverty-Requires-Violence/dp/0199937877
Gary Haugen, Just Courage: God's Great Expedition for the Restless Christian – https://www.amazon.com/Just-Courage-Expedition-Restless-Christian-ebook/dp/B001PSEQR4
Riverside Church Sermon by Martin Luther King Jr., “Beyond Vietnam” — https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam
William Lloyd Garrison biography – https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Lloyd-Garrison
Rwanda Genocide Investigation (UN Historical Overview) – https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda
About Gary Haugen
Gary Haugen is the founder and CEO of International Justice Mission (IJM), the world’s largest international anti-slavery organization. Before founding IJM in 1997, he served as the director of the United Nations’ investigation into the Rwandan genocide and previously worked at the US Department of Justice, focusing on police misconduct. A graduate of Harvard University and the University of Chicago Law School, Haugen has dedicated his life to ending violence against the poor and mobilizing the global church for justice.
Show Notes
- The founding of IJM in 1997 as a Christian response to violence against the poor
- Gary Haugen’s formative experience directing the UN’s genocide investigation in Rwanda
- Realization that hunger and disease were being addressed—but violence was not
- Early cases in the Philippines, South Asia, and Peru exposing police-run brothels and child slavery
- IJM 1.0: rescuing individuals from slavery and abuse, case by case
- IJM 2.0: strengthening local justice systems to prevent violence before it happens
- Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Jericho Road” as a model for systemic transformation
- Formation of small multidisciplinary teams—lawyers, investigators, social workers
- IJM’s evolution from rescue operations to building sustainable justice infrastructure
- Twenty-year celebration: Liberate conference and the global IJM staff retreat
- IJM’s culture of spiritual formation: daily solitude, prayer, and community rhythms
- A Christian order of justice rooted in prayer, silence, and shared joy
- Spiritual formation as the foundation for sustainable justice work
- Experiments in Cambodia, the Philippines, and South Asia reducing violence by up to 85 percent
- Replication of IJM’s model across 46 regions to protect 500 million vulnerable people
- Goal by 2030: one million freed from slavery, 300 million living under protection
- Empowering survivor leaders: from victims to advocates and elected officials
- Stories of transformation like Pama in South Asia leading the Release Bonded Laborers Association
- The Kenyan case of Willie Kimani—murdered IJM lawyer whose legacy reformed police accountability
- IJM’s resilience: pursuing justice for six years until conviction of perpetrators
- Theological grounding: justice as God’s work, pursued in Jesus’s way
- Haugen on resilience: “It’s a marathon, not a sprint”
- Joy and freedom from fear as hallmarks of IJM’s culture
- How IJM balances global crisis fatigue with focused mission clarity
- Future challenges: technology-driven oppression—live-stream child abuse and forced scamming
- Global body of Christ as the essential network for courage and joy
- Sustainability and local leadership as the future of global justice movements
- Spiritual communities as the seedbed for future justice leaders
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.