Spiritual Formation at Global Scale, with Gary Haugen and Kevin Jenkins
Conversing with Mark Labberton
How can a Christian humanitarian organization keep Christ at the center of its mission while working in the world’s most difficult places, with thousands of staff spread across dozens of countries and cultures? Gary Haugen, founder and CEO of International Justice Mission, and Kevin Jenkins, former president and CEO of World Vision International, both understand their organizations to be foundationally Christian. But even in ministries where you would expect spiritual formation to be at the center, it takes work to help large global teams live up to their mission. Speaking with Mark...
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Permanent Questions: Celebrating Ten Years of Conversing, with David Brooks
Conversing with Mark Labberton
What if the deepest problems in American life were pre-political? It’s often said that “culture is upstream from politics”—meaning that what we see in political news, speeches, ads, debates, and elections is symptomatic of a deeper cause. The conflicts, troubles, injustices, and sufferings that many people experience as political are more likely rooted in moral and spiritual crises. This week’s episode marks ten years of Conversing, which launched on October 8, 2016. To celebrate, Mark Labberton is joined by David Brooks, a staff writer at The Atlantic and presidential fellow...
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A Ukrainian Pastor on Faith, Hope, and the Terror of War, with Fyodor Raichynets
Conversing with Mark Labberton
War has wracked Ukraine for 1,678 days—outlasting both World Wars. In this conversation with Mark Labberton, Fyodor Raichynets—a theologian at Ukrainian Evangelical Theological Seminary, pastor of a church in Bucha, and a military chaplain serving on the front lines in Kyiv—explains what it is like to be under near-constant drone and ballistic attack and how that has affected his faith, memory, and experience of time. War has reshaped the way he loves, forgives, and serves; it has induced a fear even to hope. Together, they discuss trauma as a national condition and the temptation...
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Attention, Agency, and Power, with David French
Conversing with Mark Labberton
In a country splitting apart over so much, three words point toward a better way to live: attention, agency, and power. David French returns to Conversing to take up all three. A New York Times opinion writer since January 2023, French writes from a conservative theological background about law, culture, religion, and armed conflict, and has found himself writing directly into the middle of divided hostilities. French comments on how attention, agency, and power took shape in him, and how each gets distorted by partisan fundamentalisms (on both the right and left) built to shut conversation...
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Reclaiming Civic Agency, with Michael Wear
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Underneath all the political polarization, rage-baiting, punditry, and aggression, there is a crisis of civic agency. American citizens feel politically disempowered and undermined. And the effect, over time, will be that we lose our ability to self-govern. What is needed is a path between belligerence and withdrawal. In this episode, Michael Wear (Center for Christianity and Public Life, author of The Spirit of Our Politics) joins Mark Labberton to discuss provocation and political effectiveness; the value of gentleness in public life; concrete signs of hope in local political action; the...
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Loud Justice, with Sharon Cohn Wu
Conversing with Mark Labberton
“It is not just that God has a heart for justice,” says Sharon Cohn Wu (International Justice Mission), “it is that it is inextricably his character and cannot be otherwise, and that it is so perfectly married with mercy and grace that we somehow survive.” Sharon Cohn Wu has served for more than twenty years with IJM, where she is now regional president of North America. A lawyer (JD, Harvard Law), she has spent her career calling for “loud justice”—that is, visible, swift, community-wide accountability—using the criminal justice system and political will to help IJM achieve...
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Win or Lose, Run for Something, with Jeanelle Austin
Conversing with Mark Labberton
In February 2026, Jeanelle Austin filed for Minnesota Senate District 62. She started canvassing her district during a polar vortex, and persisted through triple-digit summer heat. And in August she lost in the Democratic Primary. In this episode, she sits down with Mark Labberton to reflect on what this experience has taught her about power, democracy, and what citizenship and neighbor-love means in the South Minneapolis neighborhood where she grew up. The executive director of Rise & Remember—the nonprofit that preserves the memorial at George Floyd Square—Austin followed a...
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Women, Misogyny, and the Bible, with Beth Moore
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Growing up, Beth Moore was taught that 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 were the whole of what scripture had to say about women: submissive and silent. The founder of Living Proof Ministries and one of the most widely read Bible teachers in America, Moore objects to a hermeneutic limited to those passages. In this episode, Mark Labberton revisits his 2018 conversation with Beth Moore, recorded in the months following her viral open letter, “A Letter to My Brothers.” Almost 10 years later, debates over women in leadership and whether women are free to use their full gifts in the full...
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The Human Heart, with David Anderson
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Our hearts are restless, says Saint Augustine, until they find their rest in God. The biological science and the spiritual metaphor are in agreement here. Over the course of billions of beats, our hearts never stop to rest. Your magnificent heart exchanges or pumps your entire blood volume, just over a gallon, every single minute. (Athlete hearts can pump up to 10 gallons per minute!) In this episode, Mark Labberton discusses matters of the heart with his close friend Dr. David Anderson, a cardiologist of four decades who trained at Johns Hopkins and helped launch one of the first...
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The God of the Unfinished, with Walter Brueggemann
Conversing with Mark Labberton
The Old Testament, Walter Brueggemann said, is an old text that simply refuses to stay old. “It reads like it was written yesterday.” For him, God offers no artificial closure, but is active in the meantime, and at peace with the “unfinished.” Walter Brueggemann died on June 5, 2025, at the age of ninety-two, and his own influence is unfinished. This episode is from the Conversing archives: a conversation Mark Labberton hosted with Brueggemann at Fuller Seminary for the 2015 Fuller Forum “Justice, Grace, and Law in the Mission of God.” Brueggemann was an Old Testament scholar for...
info_outlineWhy are we still “kicking the hornet’s nest”? The last time Mark Labberton interviewed Daniel Zoughbie (UC Berkeley/UCSF) for his expertise on international diplomacy in the Middle East, there was not yet an Iran war. Regardless of your geographical distance, this war is imminently important as it escalates and impacts not just Iran but the entire Middle East and the entire world economy.
“War is really supposed to be a last resort.”
Taking seriously both the significance and validity of Israel as a nation and the need for appropriate and just treatment of all Jews, Christians, and Muslims during a time of rising anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, this conversation comes at a volatile moment, pregnant with violence and chaos in American foreign policy.
Starting the timeline at the 2018 US exit from the “Iran nuclear deal” (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) Zoughbie discusses a variety of interconnected issues, including the role of Middle Eastern geography such as the Strait of Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab (“Gate of Tears”), the proliferation cascade a Saudi Arabian nuclear program could set off, and the difference between tactical brilliance and strategic vision.
Together, they also consider hopes for improvement, looking at Gerald Ford’s unpopular but effective ultimatum that forced Egypt and Israel to talk; the Olmert-Abbas negotiations that almost reached a two-state solution; the role of Christianity in politics; the danger of national pride; wisdom from antiquity in Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus the Great; and a definition of greatness that has nothing to do with force.
Episode Highlights
- Regarding the term “an unnecessary war”: “I think the word ‘unnecessary’ is absolutely the appropriate term, and I might just add another term: unjust. War is really supposed to be a last resort.”
- “Iran has discovered not only that they have this nuclear program, which is incredibly powerful, but they’ve discovered that they have this power to shut off world’s economy [through The Strait of Hormuz].”
- “Exiting [the JCPOA—Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action] was a really, really big blunder because we did not have anything else to fall back on. The Iranians pointed to this and said, ‘Look, we can’t trust your word.’”
- “I feel like the current atmosphere in Washington is really about ‘me, mine, and more.’ And for us to really have a change in our foreign policy ... we really need to think beyond ourselves as a country.”
- “We’ll always try to turn every problem into a nail, right? And we’ll use our hammer to deal with that problem. And that’s exactly why we’re in this mess in the first place.”
- “Greatness is not about testosterone shots. It’s about being able to show mercy. It’s about being able to see the humanity in others, even your enemy, and ultimately what I would call Herodotus’s paradox, which is that the mightiest of the mighty turns an enemy into a friend.”
About Daniel Zoughbie
Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, diplomatic historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics; principal investigator of Berkeley’s Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative; and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council’s MENA Futures Lab. He wrote Kicking the Hornet’s Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and Indecision Points. He founded Microclinic International, whose model has reached refugee and low-income communities across four continents, and studied at Oxford as a Marshall and Weidenfeld Scholar.
Helpful Links and Resources
- Kicking the Hornet’s Nest, Zoughbie’s 2025 book on twelve presidents and the Middle East https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226
- “Toxic Foreign Policy and Citizen Diplomacy,” Zoughbie’s first Conversing conversation: https://comment.org/podcasts/toxic-foreign-policy-and-citizen-diplomacy/
- “The Lesson Trump Can Take From Herodotus’ Paradox” https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-lesson-trump-can-take-from-herodotus-paradox/
- UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorsed the JCPOA https://main.un.org/securitycouncil/en/content/2231/background
- “World Oil Transit Chokepoints,” the US Energy Information Administration on Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab https://www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/special_topics/World_Oil_Transit_Chokepoints/
- Gerald R. Ford’s 1977 Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary commencement address, quoted at length in this episode https://www.christianitytoday.com/2006/12/gerald-r-ford-lessons-from-presidency/
- Herodotus, The Histories, Book 1, where Croesus consults the Oracle and Cyrus spares him https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book%3D1
- American University of Beirut, Zoughbie’s standing example of citizen diplomacy https://aub.edu.lb/
Show Notes
- The 2018 exit from the Iran Nuclear Deal (the JCPOA, or Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) as the origin point of the current war
- P5+1: US, UK, Russia, China, France, plus Germany
- What the deal never covered: missiles, proxies, regional behavior
- Nuclear non-proliferation
- In the wake of the US bombing of Iran: enrichment stockpiles, IAEA detections, inspectors no longer on the ground
- An unnecessary and unjust war
- How to work backward from the real goals of American national security
- Proliferation cascade risk: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt
- Leverage the US still holds through China, Russia, India, and Pakistan
- The Saudi nuclear offer, walked back a day later over Israeli recognition
- Strait of Hormuz geography: 21 miles wide, shipping lanes two miles each
- The Red Sea, the Houthis, and the Bab el-Mandab (”The Gate of Tears”)
- Israel’s tactical brilliance and strategic blindness
- Mossad’s mottos, drawn from Proverbs, and the danger of self-deception
- 1967 revisited: not a short war but a nuclear near-miss
- Gerald Ford as counterexample: the ultimatum that opened Egypt-Israel talks
- Gerald Ford’s 1977 Gordon-Conwell address and his oath on the book of Proverbs
- Hubris: ancient and current
- Testosterone shots, lethality, and the inverse of humility
- Pastors and power in the Oval Office
- Reinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, and Christian nationalism
- Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus: mercy as the measure of greatness
- The path to Tehran runs through Jerusalem
- The Olmert-Abbas negotiations as a known formula
- Citizen diplomacy and the American University of Beirut
- What listeners can do, including welcoming Middle Eastern neighbors
#Conversing #MarkLabberton #DanielZoughbie #IranWar #ForeignPolicy #StraitOfHormuz #NuclearProliferation #MiddleEast #Diplomacy #FaithAndPolitics
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.