Pragmatic Trial of ACP: Jennifer Wolff, Sydney Dy, Danny Scerpella, and Jasmine Santoyo-Olsson
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Release Date: 03/27/2025
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
The need for better palliative care in nursing homes is significant. Consider this: the majority of the 1.4 million adults residing in U.S. nursing homes grapple with serious illnesses, and roughly half experience dementia. Many also suffer from distressing symptoms like pain. In addition, about 25% of all deaths in the United States occur within these facilities. Despite these substantial needs, specialized palliative care beyond hospice is rare in nursing homes. Furthermore, only about half of nursing home residents nearing the end of life receive hospice care. So, how can we improve...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Have any of you watched the movie “”? At the end, one of the characters, who has dementia, experiences an episode of lucidity. When I watched it, between tears (I’m a complete softie) I remember thinking, “Oh no! This will give people false hope! That their loved one is ‘in there.’ If only they could find the right key to unlock the lock and let them out.” Today we talk about lucid episodes and what they might mean to the person with dementia, their family and loved ones, to philosophers, to clinicians, to neuroscientists. Our guests are Andrea...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
As you know, dear listeners, I love music. We start each podcast with a song in part to shift the frame, taking people out of their academic selves and into a more informal conversation. Well, today’s guests love music at least as much if not more than me, and they each make a strong case for music as medicine. Jenny Chen is a palliative care fellow at Yale who regularly sings for her seriously ill patients. Look for Jenny to potentially appear on the show (no lie). Tyler Jorgensen not only plays music for his patients, starting out with just pulling up a tune on his iPhone, he and others...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Our main focus today was on to consider a more palliative approach to care. Our guests are all trained in critical care: Kate Courtright, Scott Halpern, and Jaspal Singh. Kate and Scott have additional training in palliative medicine. To start. we review: What is a nudge? Also called behavioral interventions, heuristics, and cognitive biases. Prior podcasts on the , and a different trial conducted by Kate and Scott in which the . What is sludge? I’d never heard the term, perhaps outside of Eric’s pejorative reference to my coffee after adding copious...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
We’ve covered psychedelics on the podcast before—first in 2019 with , and then again in 2023 with Stacy Fischer, Brian Anderson, and Theora Cimino, focusing on the . In today’s episode, we’re taking a closer look at the current state of the science around one specific psychedelic: psilocybin. We'll discuss three recent clinical trials involving patients with serious illness, joined by our guests , , and . We begin with a refresher on psilocybin—what it is, how it might work, what conditions it may help treat (including demoralization), and how it’s typically administered....
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Peter Selwyn, one of today’s guests, has been caring for people living with HIV for over 40 years. In that time, care of people with HIV has changed dramatically. Initially, there was no treatment, then treatments with marginal efficacy, complex schedules, and a tremendous burden of side effects and drug-drug interactions. The average age at death was in the 30s. Now, more people in the US die with HIV rather than from HIV. Treatment regimens are simplified, and the anti-viral drugs are well tolerated. People are living with HIV into advanced ages. The...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
More and more people are, “” Self-identified experts and influencers on (podcasts!) and social media endorse treatments that are potentially harmful and have little to no evidence of benefit, or have only been studied in animals. An increasing number of federal have a of endorsing such products. We and our guests have noticed that in our clinical practices, patients and caregivers seem to be asking for such treatments more frequently. Ivermectin to treat cancer. Stem cell treatments. Chelation therapy. Daneila Lamas wrote about this issue in the -after we...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
I read Farah Stockman’s article in the NYT on , and thought, “Yes, and ‘everyone’ includes harm to our healthcare workforce, our patients, and their families.” So we’re delighted that Farah Stockman, pulitzer prize winning journalist, author of , and editorial board member at the New York TImes joins us to set the bigger picture for this discussion. Farah provides clear examples from the Biden administration, in which having the most diverse cabinet in history was critical to building bridges, empathy, and inspiring others to feel included. We are also pleased to welcome Ali...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Early in my research career, I was fascinated by the (then) frontier area of palliative care in the emergency department. I emergency medicine clinicians what they thought when a patient who is seriously ill and DNR comes to the ED, and some responded, (paraphrasing), what are they doing here? This is not why I went into emergency medicine. I went into emergency medicine to act. I can’t do the primary thing I’ve been trained to do: ABC, ABC, ABCs. Most emergency providers wanted to for seriously ill patients, but they didn’t have the knowledge, skills, or experience to do...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast
Whelp, goodbye folks! Eric and I have been DOGE’d. In a somewhat delayed April Fools, Nancy Lundebjerg and Annie Medina-Walpole have taken over podcast host duties this week. Their purpose is to interview me, Eric, and Ken Covinsky about your final AGS literature review plenary session taking place at the Annual Meeting in Chicago this May (for those attending, our session is the plenary the morning of May 10). We discuss our favorite articles, parody songs, and memories from AGS meetings past, with a little preview of a song for this year’s meeting. We covered: ...
info_outlineA pragmatic trial evaluates the effectiveness of a treatment or intervention in “real-world” clinical practice. Outcomes are typically assessed from available records. Eligibility in pragmatic trials are often broad, and don’t have the exclusions of efficacy studies, which examine treatment effects under highly controlled conditions in highly select populations.
Today we are delighted to welcome Jennifer Wolff, Sydney Dy, and Danny Scerpella, who conducted a pragmatic trial of advance care planning (ACP) in primary care practices; and Jasmine Santoyo-Olsson, who wrote an accompanying commentary in JAMA Internal Medicine.
We spend the last portion of the podcast discussing the surprising finding of the study. In the primary care practices that received the advance care planning intervention, rates of advance care planning were higher (about double). Shockingly, rates of potentially burdensome intervention (intubation, CPR, etc) were also higher in the advance care planning intervention group. What?!? Not a typo.
We spend some time unpacking and contextualizing the potential reasons for this surprising finding, including:
-
Disconnect between relatively low rates of new advance directives (12% in intervention arm vs 7% control) and higher rates of potentially burdensome treatment among decedents (29% in intervention arm vs 21% control). Only 5% of intervention patients received the facilitator led component of the intervention (there were other components, facilitator-led was the most engaged component). Was there really a causal connection between the intervention, new advance directives, and higher rates of potentially burdensome interventions?
-
Potential that care received, though potentially burdensome, was in fact aligned with goals, and might represent goal concordant care.
-
Potential that documenting advance directives without a robust conversation about prognosis might have led to these findings. My goals will differ if I think I probably have 2 years to live vs 10 years.
-
Comparison to a trial Yael Shenker discussed in our podcast on AAHPM/HPNA plenary abstracts (also used the Respecting Choices intervention, outcome differed).
-
Implications for the larger discussion over the value of advance care planning, and additional research into advance care planning. As I say on the podcast, I’m sure Sean Morrison would be delighted to point to these findings as evidence that advance care planning doesn’t work, and in fact may be harmful.
And I got to sing in Spanish for the second time. I hope my pronunciation is better than my Urdu, or French!
-Alex Smith