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RCT of PC in ED: Corita Grudzen, Fernanda Bellolio, & Tammie Quest

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Release Date: 04/10/2025

Do Dementia Care Management Programs Work? A Podcast with David Reuben and Greg Sachs show art Do Dementia Care Management Programs Work? A Podcast with David Reuben and Greg Sachs

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

With all the attention focused on Alzheimer's biomarkers and amyloid antibodies, it’s easy to forget that comprehensive dementia care is more than blood draws and infusions. On today’s podcast, we buck this trend and dive into the complexities and challenges of comprehensive dementia care with the authors of two pivotal articles recently published in JAMA. We’ve invited David Reuben and Greg Sachs to talk about their two respective trials, published in JAMA — and — aimed at improving the evidence for care models supporting individuals diagnosed with dementia. D-CARE tested the...

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Comprehensive Geriatric Assessment: Benefits, Cost-Effectiveness, and Who It Helps Most - Eric Wong and Thiago Silva show art Comprehensive Geriatric Assessment: Benefits, Cost-Effectiveness, and Who It Helps Most - Eric Wong and Thiago Silva

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In today’s podcast we talk with Eric Wong, geriatrician-researcher from Toronto, and Thiago Silva, geriatrician-researcher from Brazil, about the comprehensive geriatrics assessment.  We spend the first 30 minutes (at least) discussing what, exactly is the comprehensive geriatric assessment, including: What domains of assessment are essential/mandatory components of the comprehensive geriatrics assessment? Who performs it? Is a multidisciplinary team required? Can a geriatrician perform it alone? Can non-geriatricians perform it? Who is the comprehensive geriatrics assessment for?...

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What instead? Alternatives to Beers: Todd Semla and Mike Steinman show art What instead? Alternatives to Beers: Todd Semla and Mike Steinman

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

On a we talked with Todd Semla and Mike Steinman about the update to the of potentially inappropriate medications in older adults (Todd and Mike co-chair the AGS Beers Criteria Panel).  One of the questions that came up was - well if we should probably think twice or avoid that medication, what should we do instead? Today we talk with Todd and Mike about their new recommendations of , and also presented at the 2025 AGS conference in Chicago (and available ). We had a lot of fun at the start of the podcast talking about the appropriate analogy for how clinicians should use the AGS Beers...

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Art Museum-Based Medical Education: Amy Klein, Laura Morrison, and Gordon Wood show art Art Museum-Based Medical Education: Amy Klein, Laura Morrison, and Gordon Wood

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Health care trainees rotate through a variety of different settings. ICUs, hospital wards, and outpatient clinics. If they're lucky, they might even spend time in a nursing home. But on today’s podcast, we’re adding one more setting to that list: your local art museum. In this thought-provoking episode, we explore how art museum teaching is being integrated into the education of medical professionals—and why it's making a profound difference. Our guests, , , and , share their journey of integrating art into medical training, along with practical strategies you can use if you're inspired...

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We Need a Care Revolution: Victor Montori show art We Need a Care Revolution: Victor Montori

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In his book, “,” Victor Montori decries the industrialization of healthcare.  We’ve become a healthcare factory, beholden to health systems motivated by profit. In particular, he laments the loss of the “care” aspect of healthcare. Clinicians are under the clock to churn through patients.  Patients are tasked with doing work outside of the clinic. Patients are tasked with hours and hours of work to self manage, obtain and manage medications, track weights and fingersticks, not to mention scheduling visits and waiting around for the visit to start. Now we have an app for...

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System Wide Goals of Care Implementation: A Podcast with Ira Byock, Chris Dale, and Matt Gonzales show art System Wide Goals of Care Implementation: A Podcast with Ira Byock, Chris Dale, and Matt Gonzales

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Most health care providers understand the importance of goals-of-care conversations in aligning treatment plans with patients’ goals, especially for those with serious medical problems. And yet, these discussions often either don't happen or at least don't get documented. How can we do better? In today’s podcast, we sit down with Ira Byock, Chris Dale, and Matthew Gonzales to discuss a multi-year healthcare system-wide goals of care implementation project within the Providence Health Care System. Spanning 51 hospitals, this initiative was recently described in NEJM Catalyst, showing truly...

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Death Anxiety: Dani Chammas & Keri Brenner show art Death Anxiety: Dani Chammas & Keri Brenner

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

What is death anxiety?  We spend the first 15 minutes of the podcast addressing this question.  And maybe this was unfair to our guests, the fabulous dynamic duo of palliative psychiatrists Dani Chammas and Keri Brenner (listen to their prior podcasts on and the ).  After all, we invited them on to our podcast to discuss death anxiety, then Eric and I immediately questioned if death anxiety was the best term for what we want to discuss! Several key points stood out to me from this podcast, your key points may differ: The “anxiety” in “death anxiety” is not a...

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Individualizing Blood Pressure Goals in Older Adults: A Podcast with Mitra Jamshidian, Simon Ascher and Mark Supiano show art Individualizing Blood Pressure Goals in Older Adults: A Podcast with Mitra Jamshidian, Simon Ascher and Mark Supiano

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

What’s the ideal blood pressure target for older adults with hypertension? Should we aim for a systolic BP of 120 mmHg in all older adults, as suggested by the ? Or should we be more flexible—especially for those who are frail or among the oldest old? This week on the GeriPal Podcast, we explore the nuances of managing blood pressure in older adults with our guests Dr. Mark Supiano, Dr. Mitra Jamshidian, and Dr. Simon Ascher.  Now, some of our astute GeriPal listeners may say, “wait, didn't you already talk about this with Mark Supiano in a 2017 podcast titled ”  Yes, we sure...

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Should Palliative Care be in the Survivorship Business? A Podcast with Laura Petrillo, Laura Shoemaker show art Should Palliative Care be in the Survivorship Business? A Podcast with Laura Petrillo, Laura Shoemaker

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In this week’s episode, we dig into two deceptively simple questions: When does someone become a cancer survivor, and should palliative care be in the business of caring for them? Spoiler: It’s more complicated than it seems. We’ve invited two palliative care doctors to talk about survivorship with us: , a physician-researcher at Mass General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, and , an outpatient palliative care doctor at the Cleveland Clinic. This episode is a must-listen for those navigating the evolving landscape of cancer care, and asking not just how we treat cancer, but how we...

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Health and Wealth Shocks: Lauren Hunt, Rebecca Rodin, Tsai-Chin Cho show art Health and Wealth Shocks: Lauren Hunt, Rebecca Rodin, Tsai-Chin Cho

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

famously characterized the end of life functional course of people with dementia as a slow dwindle over time. later found that people with dementia do indeed have persistent severe disability throughout the last year of their lives. But from our clinical work, many of us are familiar with people with dementia who experience sudden shocks to their health, think hip fracture, think hospitalization for pneumonia.  Those disruptive events or shocks often portend a major decline in function from which people with dementia never fully recover.  And they’re often a sign of (or cause...

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More Episodes

Early in my research career, I was fascinated by the (then) frontier area of palliative care in the emergency department.  I asked emergency medicine clinicians what they thought when a patient who is seriously ill and DNR comes to the ED, and some responded, (paraphrasing), what are they doing here? This is not why I went into emergency medicine. I went into emergency medicine to act. I can’t do the primary thing I’ve been trained to do: ABC, ABC, ABCs.  Most emergency providers wanted to do the right thing for seriously ill patients, but they didn’t have the knowledge, skills, or experience to do it.

Today we focus on an intervention, published in JAMA, that gave emergency clinicians basic palliative care knowledge, training, and skills.  We talk with Corita Grudzen and Fernanda Bellolio about their cluster stepped wedge randomized trial of a palliative care intervention directed at emergency clinicians.  They got training in Vital Talk and ELNEC.  They got a decision support tool that identified hospice patients or those who might benefit from a goals of care discussion.  They got feedback.

So did it matter?  Hmmm….it depends.  We are fortunate to have Tammie Quest, emergency and palliative trained and long a leader in this space, to help us unpack and contextualize these findings.

Today we discuss:

  • Why the study was negative for the primary (hospitalization) and all secondary outcome (e.g. hospice use).

  • Why to emergency clinicians, this study was a wild success because they had the skills they wanted/needed to feel like they could do the right thing (during the onset of Covid no less).

  • Why this study was a success due to the sheer size (nearly 100,000 patients in about 30 EDs) of the study, and the fact that, as far as the investigators know, all study sites continue to employ the clinical decision support tool.

  • What is a cluster stepped wedge randomized trial? 

  • Were they surprised by the negative findings?

  • How do we situate this study in the context of other negative primary palliative care interventions, outside the ED?  E.g. Yael Shenker’s negative study of primary palliative care for cancer, Randy Curtis’s negative study of a Vital Talk-ish intervention, Lieve Van den Block’s negative study of primary PC in nursing homes. Why do so many (most, all??) primary palliative care interventions seem to fail, whereas specialized palliative care interventions have a relatively robust track record of success. Should we give up on primary palliative care?  What’s next for primary palliative care interventions in the ED?

And if your Basic Life Support training certification is due, you can practice the correct chest compression rate of 110 beats per minute to Another One Bites the Dust.

-Alex Smith