loader from loading.io

Potentially Unsafe Low-evidence Treatments: Adam Marks, Laura Taylor, & Jill Schneiderhan

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Release Date: 04/24/2025

The Chaplain and the Doctor: A Podcast with Betty Clark and Jessica Zitter show art The Chaplain and the Doctor: A Podcast with Betty Clark and Jessica Zitter

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In this week’s episode, we delve into the powerful documentary with two extraordinary guests: Betty Clark, the chaplain at the heart of the film, and Dr. Jessica Zitter, the physician and filmmaker who brought this story to the screen.  The film provides a deeply moving look into the ways personal stories and biases shape our interactions in healthcare. Through our conversation with Betty and Jessica, I gained a valuable insight: the narratives we carry within ourselves—whether conscious or unconscious—act as invisible forces that influence how we engage with patients and...

info_outline
A Strategic Path Forward for Hospice & Palliative Care: Ira Byock, Kristi Newport, Brynn Bowman show art A Strategic Path Forward for Hospice & Palliative Care: Ira Byock, Kristi Newport, Brynn Bowman

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In June of 2025, hospice and palliative care pioneer Ira Byock . In a nutshell, he expressed concerns that the quality of hospice care in the United States has become highly variable, with disturbing frequency of unethical practices and avaricious owners. He also raised concern that the rapid increase in palliative care program growth during the first two decades of this century has stalled, leaving us with understaffed programs that are often inadequately trained.  Along with Ira, we’ve invited Kristi Newport, a palliative care doctor and Chief Medical Officer of the , and Brynn...

info_outline
Palliative Care in Sickle Cell: Craig Blinderman, Stephanie Kiser, Eberechi Nwogu-Onyemkpa show art Palliative Care in Sickle Cell: Craig Blinderman, Stephanie Kiser, Eberechi Nwogu-Onyemkpa

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Today’s topic on palliative care for sickle cell disease may raise eyebrows with some of you.  You might think, wait, now we’re doing sickle cell?  On top of , , and ?  Where does it end?  Do we have staff for all of this? Well I implore you, dear listeners, to keep an open mind and listen to this podcast.  Our guests do a fabulous job of stating the case for palliative care in sickle cell disease, to the point that we ask: why haven’t we been doing this all along? Our guests today are Craig Blinderman, Stephanie Kiser, Eberechi Nwogu-Onyemkpa, three palliative...

info_outline
Medical Billing and Coding in Geriatrics: Peter Hollmann, Ken Koncilja, and Audrey Chun show art Medical Billing and Coding in Geriatrics: Peter Hollmann, Ken Koncilja, and Audrey Chun

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Last month, the “Billing Boys”—Chris Jones and Phil Rodgers—joined the GeriPal podcast to . This month, we’re back with part two, shifting the focus to geriatrics. While billing and coding may not be the most exciting topic, they’re essential for ensuring fair reimbursement for the complex care we provide and for supporting the work of our interprofessional teams, many of whom can’t bill directly for their services. When we underbill or leave money on the table, we not only shortchange ourselves but also devalue the critical role of geriatrics in the healthcare system. This time,...

info_outline
Rethinking Slow Codes: Gina Piscitello, Parker Crutchfield, Jason Wasserman show art Rethinking Slow Codes: Gina Piscitello, Parker Crutchfield, Jason Wasserman

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

I’m going to begin with a wonderful quote from a recent editorial in by our guests Parker Crutchfield & Jason Wasserman. This quote illustrates the tension between the widely held view in bioethics that slow codes are unethical, and the complexity of real world hospital practice: “Decisive moral positions are easy to come by when sitting in the cheap seats of academic journals, but a troubling ambivalence is naturally characteristic of live dilemmas.” Gina Piscitello, our third guest, recently surveyed doctors, nurses and others at 2 academic medical centers about slow codes. ...

info_outline
GeriPal Live! at NPCRC Foley Retreat: Dio Kavalieratos, Prasanna Ananth, Alexi Wright show art GeriPal Live! at NPCRC Foley Retreat: Dio Kavalieratos, Prasanna Ananth, Alexi Wright

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

This is the second GeriPal podcast we’ve recorded live using this format, see this to our prior podcast at the Center to Advance Palliative Care (CAPC) meeting in Philadelphia.  Also look for our upcoming podcast recorded live from the . Today we join you from beautiful Banff, Alberta, Canada at the National Palliative Care Research Center () annual Kathleen Foley retreat.  This meeting was bittersweet.  I’ve been fortunate to attend every meeting in one capacity or another since 2006.  The made an enormous impact  on the growth and capacity for palliative care...

info_outline
GeriPal Live! at CAPC: Karen Bullock, Kim Curseen, Matt Gonzales show art GeriPal Live! at CAPC: Karen Bullock, Kim Curseen, Matt Gonzales

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Eric and I had the pleasure of doing a GeriPal Live! Podcast as the closing keynote for the recent in Philadelphia PA. For this podcast, we invited 3 guests to each select an article of interest to them, and engage in a discussion about the article, including questions from the CAPC attendees in the audience. Our guests chose the following articles (in the order discussed) Matt Gonzales used AI to select an article by Ravi Parikh on , published in JAMA Network Open, finding 44% in the intervention arm received palliative care consults, vs 8% in the control arm.  We discussed use of AI...

info_outline
Pre-Operative Geri Assessment: Vicky Tang and Houman Javedan show art Pre-Operative Geri Assessment: Vicky Tang and Houman Javedan

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

  We love getting requests from listeners for podcast topics.  This request came from geriatricians we met at the annual American Geriatrics Society meeting in Chicago.  They wanted to know more about what a geriatrician should do in a pre-operative risk assessment.  So we invited Vicky Tang and Houman Javedan, two geriatricians and leaders in the pre-operative assessment and prehab space, to talk with us. As is our style, we backed up to some bigger questions, including: -Why do patients need a geriatric assessment pre-operatively?-Why are our surgical colleagues asking...

info_outline
What Makes a Good Death?  Karen Steinhauser, Rasa Mikelyte, Edison Vidal show art What Makes a Good Death? Karen Steinhauser, Rasa Mikelyte, Edison Vidal

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

What is a “good death”? How should we define it, and who gets to decide? Is the concept of a “good death” even useful? Twenty-five years ago, Karen Steinhauser published a groundbreaking study in JAMA that transformed my understanding of what it means to have a good death and questioned the usefulness of the term itself. This study examined the factors that are important at the end of life for patients, families, physicians, and other healthcare providers. In today’s podcast, we are honored to have Karen join us to discuss this pivotal study and the nature of a “good death”. We...

info_outline
Medical Billing and Coding with the Medical Billing and Coding with the "Billing Boys"

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

A podcast on medical billing and coding??? Ok, hear us out as we were skeptical too. We’ve invited the Billing Boys, Chris Jones and Phil Rodgers, who convinced us of the following: Billing is complicated, but it isn’t hard.  Effectively billing helps pay for the interprofessional team members who often can't bill We should know our worth and bill for it. Just because a visit didn’t feel HARD to a well-trained provider doesn’t mean it wasn’t complex or valuable.  Many of us have long suffered from low professional self-esteem when it comes to money, and it’s high...

info_outline
 
More Episodes

More and more people are, “doing their own research.”  Self-identified experts and influencers on podcasts (podcasts!) and social media endorse treatments that are potentially harmful and have little to no evidence of benefit, or have only been studied in animals.  An increasing number of federal leaders have a track record of endorsing such products.

We and our guests have noticed that in our clinical practices, patients and caregivers seem to be asking for such treatments more frequently.  Ivermectin to treat cancer.  Stem cell treatments. Chelation therapy.  Daneila Lamas wrote about this issue in the New York Times this week -after we recorded - in her story, a family requested an herbal infusion for their dying mother via feeding tube.

Our guests today, Adam Marks, Laura Taylor, & Jill Schneiderhan, have coined a term for such therapies, for Potentially Unsafe Low-evidence Treatments, or PULET. Rhymes with mullet (On the podcast we debate using the French pronunciation, though it sounds the same as the French word for chicken).  We discuss an article they wrote about PULET for the American Journal of Hospice and Palliative Medicine, including:

  • What makes a PULET a PULET?  Key ingredients are both potentially unsafe and low evidence.  If it’s low evidence but not unsafe, not generally an issue.  Think vitamins. If it’s potentially unsafe, but has robust evidence, well that’s most of the treatments we offer seriously ill patients!  Think chemo.

  • What counts as potentially unsafe? They include what might be obvious, e.g. health risks, and less obvious, e.g. financial toxicity.

  • What counts as low-evidence?  Animal studies? Theoretical only?

  • Does PULET account for avoiding known effective treatments?

  • Do elements of care that are often administered to seriously ill patients count? Yes. Think chemotherapy to imminently dying patients, or CPR.

  • How does integrative medicine fit in with this?  Jill Schneiderhan, a family medicine and integrative medicine doc, helps us think through this.

  • How ought clinicians respond?  Hint: If you’re arguing over the scientific merits of a research study, you’re probably not doing it right.  Instead, think VitalTalk, REMAP, and uncover and align with the emotion behind the request.

  • Does the approach shift when it’s a caregiver requesting PULET for an older relative who lost capacity? How about parents advocating for a child?

For more, Laura suggests a book titled, How to Talk to a Science Denier.  

And I am particularly happy that the idea for this podcast arose from my visit to Michigan to give Grand Rounds, and the conversations I had with Adam and Laura during the visit.  We love it when listeners engage with us to suggest topics that practicing clinicians find challenging.

And I get to sing Bon Jovi’s Bad Medicine, which is such a fun song!

-Alex Smith