The Importance of Building Relationships in the World of Capital Raising

Today’s guest is Salvatore Buscemi.

 

Salvatore is currently serving as the CEO and Co-Founding Partner of HRN, LLC, a private multi-family investment office, Salvatore Buscemi has demonstrated a keen eye for successful investment strategies. He started his career at Goldman Sachs.

 

Show summary:

In this podcast episode, Salvatore discusses the importance of networking and building meaningful relationships, especially in the investment industry. He shares his journey from considering medical school to raising $30 million for a fund at 29, and his ventures into life sciences and commercial real estate. Buscemi emphasizes the need for genuine interaction and understanding investors' preferences. He also discusses his upcoming book, "Investing Legacy: How the 0001% Invest," which offers insights into the current state of investments.

 

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The importance of networking (00:00:00)

 

Salvatore Buscemi's background and career journey (00:00:53)

 

Investing in defaulted loans and impact-driven investments (00:02:38)

 

Networking and Building Relationships (00:09:29)

 

Being Busy vs. Being Meaningful (00:10:11)

 

The Law of Reciprocity (00:15:52)

 

Importance of building relationships with investors (00:18:20)

 

Helping investors by saying no (00:19:06)

 

Introduction to the book "Investing Legacy" (00:20:44)

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Connect with Salvatore:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/SMBuscemi

 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/salvatorembuscemi/

 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/salvatore.buscemi.589

 

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Salvatore-M.-Buscemi/author/B00O5IHPTC?ref=ap_rdr&store_ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/salvatore-buscemi/

 

Book: https://www.investinglegacy.com/book

 

Connect with Sam:

I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.  

 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/

Email me → [email protected]

 

SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson

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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f

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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:

Salvatore Buscemi (00:00:00) - Your network is so important. It really is. And and the most extreme example of this is when somebody loses their job, they don't have a network. So they're groveling to all their friends. Right. And so, you know, there's no excuse for that today especially in LinkedIn. You have to treat your you know, you have to treat people like friends. You know, like really. And I think that there's been too much of an institutionalization that's been normalized now where, you know, coming after the pandemic, a lot of people are they're looking for that warmth and that intricate connectivity.

 

Intro (00:00:26) - Welcome to the how to Scale commercial real Estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.

 

Sam Wilson (00:00:39) - Salvatore Buscemi is currently serving as the CEO and co-founding partner of Hrn, LLC. They are a private multifamily investment office, and he has demonstrated a keen eye for successful investment strategies. Sal, welcome to the show.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:00:53) - Sam, it's a pleasure and privilege.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:00:55) - Thank you.

 

Sam Wilson (00:00:56) - Absolutely. The pleasure is truly mine. Sal, there are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now? And how did you get there?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:01:06) - I started out after college not wanting to go to medical school because I passed out holding a tibia in the cadaver room, and I wound up networking because of the work I did for that doctor before I passed out. He had introduced me to his brother, who had just made partner at a firm that I would later work at called Goldman Sachs. At the age of 29, I left and raised $30 million institutionally from a Park Avenue investment manager. I was young, I was looking back. I was very driven. But there was an opportunity with Bear Stearns that collapsed, that was able to utilize my skills and network to be able to put together a $30 million fund institutionally, which a lot of people don't do unless you have that Wall Street pedigree.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:01:46) - And we had a lot of fun. The market's changed in about ten years ago. I started because of some of the families that I've worked with. They we went into like sciences because I was introduced to two partners of mine that have very illustrative careers in life sciences, managing money for the Rockefellers at the age of 26, 6 billion for them. And, you know, it's the same for Texas State Pension Teachers Pension Fund two as it related to the life sciences. So the deal flow that was coming in is great. And we built a whole consortium around that because a lot of people want to a lot of people have discretionary income and not only looking to place it into things like real estate, but also the other things that are a little more impact driven.

 

Sam Wilson (00:02:29) - That is a wild ride. Let's go back to the 30 million you raised right out of the gate on your own. What was that into?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:02:38) - That was into it was. It was interesting. It was sort of like the Big Short, but not really.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:02:42) - We were buying whole loans, right? Where if you look at the Big Short, they were looking at buying, you know, they were creating synthetics and then they were shorting them or trading them. So we were basically the kitchen sink for Bear Stearns. A lot of the stuff that came through, and this is during 2008. Now, a lot of people time thought that you couldn't short the housing market. Well, movies and books have been written to show otherwise, but it was really me connecting with someone who was a little older than me, but could see the fire in my eyes. I guess enough so that, you know, we were we put together this, you know, this, this, this fund that we were able to buy a lot of defaulted assets from Bear Stearns and some other banks that were going out of business.

 

Sam Wilson (00:03:21) - Got it. And what what did you do with them? So you bought all these defaulted loans and then what?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:03:25) - We bought low and sold just a little higher.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:03:28) - So what we were able to do is that we were able to clear title on these, the ones that we were going through the whole foreclosure process and then just selling them off to rehabs. Right. And they had as long as, you know, and the key to make it that really made that work, Sam, was to make sure you understood the metrics that they wanted as far as a profitability. And then this way that would affect your investment basis. So if, you know, these guys had to have a margin of like, I'm just saying 35%, for example, it makes it a lot easier for you to go into these deals knowing exactly what these guys want. And it was high velocity and we were able to do that. And then later I did it out in Las Vegas, too, with with commercial real estate, with private lenders. And I actually wrote my first book after that called Making the Yield, because a lot of people didn't know what hard money lending was, or private lending.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:04:09) - If you go to making the yield, you know you can get a copy. But and then after that, I wrote another book on fundraising because that was important to as well. People wanted to know, well what was the right way of doing this. And raising real money was actually came out about a year after that.

 

Sam Wilson (00:04:23) - What are so you've done a lot. Let's just start there. I hear, I hear, I hear the last 20 years and I go.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:04:29) - I like to say busy. I like to say busy.

 

Sam Wilson (00:04:32) - You've been busy. Okay. And it sounds like it's busy by choice. What drives you today to keep doing what you're doing? Like what's a what's a key motivator for you?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:04:43) - So we're not we haven't really done much in real estate. We do have 166,000 square foot Class-A industrial building we did in 2020, which has been performing very, very well because it's logistics and, you know, warehouse, light warehouse. But what gets me out of more out of bed in the morning right now is the impact that I've made.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:05:01) - And the track record that's starting, especially from this year. We've seen a lot of our, again, life science companies make a lot of improvements and strides as it relates to getting FDA approval for artificial defibrillator devices that every mother now will carry in her purse. Right. You can charge it with your iPhone. That is a big deal. And that came out in February. We also have a few other things that are happening to where people were. The ability to to really impact humanity is great to a lot of these wealthier families. And the ones that I'm talking about are over $100 million in net worth. They they're not looking for an extra zero, really. They're looking for that impact. They're looking for the bragging rights to go along with something. And we've been involved in a lot of deals right now where even outside of life sciences, we've had a tremendous impact on society. If you think about it, there's 260 million soccer players worldwide. We invested into a company alongside another large family called AI.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:05:53) - Scout. And Scout is a preeminent recruiting tool, and you'll hear some announcements, but they've already been chosen for Chelsea Football Club and a lot of the other Premier League sports, Premier League football teams in Europe, to be used for recruiting. And, you know, the impact that that is made is that in a town in East India where there's only one cell phone for 45 people, one kid was able to get recruited to Burnley, I think. So these are premier soccer clubs that are doing a lot of recruitment and the impact and the democratization of people through technology to be able to improve their lives is something that, you know, really, really draws to me. You know, it's like somewhere I don't have any kids and I'm not married, but at some point you got to look back and see who did you help, you know, what did you really do? And I think most people look at it from the altruistic standpoint where, you know, but look, I like to think big and I like to be alongside people who think just as big as I do to get into opportunities and to and to really communicate the strategy in a way where everybody can get their their hearts and minds around it.

 

Sam Wilson (00:06:50) - That is amazing. What do you do to put yourself in? Maybe at this point it just it's just the network that you've built. But how do you put yourself in front of these types of opportunities? Because those are pretty nuanced.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:07:04) - They you know, these are not my rule of thumb is the wider an opportunity is made available, the less valuable it is. Think about it. Everybody during the cryptocurrency days, do you buy Bitcoin? Why not everybody sneaking into your, you know, your DMs? I suppose it's a function of your network, but mostly your reputation. If I do not do what I was supposed to be doing with this one company, I would not have been invited to invest in space actually this past August. Right. And so that was an opportunity where I had to move fast. People could depend on me that we could move fast to do this. And we come to the table with money. So I think it's more or less a reputation, whereas people are looking for that certainty of execution, that you're actually going to write a check, you're going to do what you say you're going to do.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:07:44) - You are who you say you're going to do. And it's backed up by pedigree, too, as we talked about. And that gives people the creature comfort to say, hey, let's let Sal into this consortium. Let's let you know. Let's let them have a look. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to invest. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I get invited to things all the time, but even more so than that, what I like to do is I like to keep the networking on a very high level and a very active level. Tonight I'm invited to three things I don't want to, you know, cigars and cognac mean I'm just going to meet with a bunch of people real quick. You know, it's like a gathering here in Miami. But, you know, if I meet one person of consequence or somebody who I can help, it's worth it, right? And it's just a short walk. And it's a very cool day in Miami today. So it's not like I'm going to be sweating on the way over there.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:08:25) - There's other events too. And I moved to Miami because and this is something I want your listeners to really understand. Your network is so important. It really is. And and the most extreme example of this is when somebody loses their job, they don't have a network. So they're groveling to all their friends. Right. And so, you know, there's no excuse for that today, especially in LinkedIn. You have to treat your you know, you have to treat people like friends. You know, like really. And I think that there's been too much of an institutionalization that's been normalized now where, you know, coming after the pandemic, a lot of people are they're looking for that warmth and that intricate connectivity. And, you know, that's a whole other, you know, a whole other conversation we can have on that.

 

Sam Wilson (00:09:01) - Right? No, I think that's great. That's absolutely great. Yeah. I mean, I'm reading here on your website or on your website, actually on your LinkedIn profile view or profile, it says, you know, you guys are multifamily office Advisor and you put a bunch of things in there.

 

Sam Wilson (00:09:13) - And one of the one of the phrases I think that was unique was it says in other, not unique because you actually use the word in it, but was catching was in other unique invitation only opportunities. And so I started thinking about like, okay, so what is Sal doing to get one of those unique invitation only opportunities?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:09:29) - Yeah. You're networking. You're always out there. And for people at home who don't live in Miami or New York City, where I'm from, you have zoom today. There's it's there are people I know who open up their calendars just so they can sleep. You know, where they're meeting with people all over the world. It sounds kind of crazy. And there are people who are eccentric who do that. You don't have to go that crazy. But it would be great if you could meet some people over zoom just to, you know, to continue to build a network meaningfully, not just clicking and accept and, you know, people will forget and also be interactive.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:09:58) - I'm always interactive on people. Whenever I'm on a on a podcast, I always repost it. I always talk about the good things that are going on. I talk about a lot of things that are going on, but that interactivity is more important not just on LinkedIn, but also through email as well.

 

Sam Wilson (00:10:11) - Right? Absolutely. Let's let's talk about the something that we mentioned here in the beginning of the show. I said, you've done a lot, and you said, I like to define it as busy. How do you make sure that you're busy is also meaningful?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:10:26) - I have two that's a very good point. And you have to look at it and find out what's the highest and best use of your time and how do you leverage that activity. So I like to first of all, number one. Today. We live in a digital age, right. And so you have to continue to attract attention, whether you're me, whether you're someone else or the worst case scenario, politicians, they're constantly attracting attention.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:10:49) - Right. Because attention is the new oil. And, you know, there's there's there's a lot to be said for that. So what I do is the highest and best use of my time are two things. Number one, creating content to post on LinkedIn I like LinkedIn. Twitter for me is like a nice site. Like every time I post something, somebody, you know, I think people are drunk on Twitter, to be honest with you. I just don't understand it. But it's, you know, it has it serves this purpose as far as democratizing the voice. The second thing, too, is that I'm always talking to investors, whether they're current or new. That's the highest and best use of time, current or new. And I'm being very careful about what they're telling me. If it's a new investor, what do they like to invest in? What don't they like to invest into? Sometimes they like investing in stuff we won't touch. That's fine. We can still be friends. But he's not going to get my email distributions maybe.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:11:37) - Right. So I mean it's it's you just have to be meaningful and thoughtful about it because there's just so much noise out there today. And if you really are looking to build those relationships and you're sending out the emails and you're continuing to do things that really set you apart from everyone else, you're going to start to build a brand for yourself. And your brand really is your promise. When you think nobody tells you that they all have these great. You know, if you ask Madison Avenue what a brand was, they say it's a nice logo. And I've been down these road. I know exactly what it looks like, but at the end of the day, people are investing in you in a brand first before they invest in any sort of entity.

 

Sam Wilson (00:12:10) - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And we talked about that a little bit before we started hitting record, which as you said, that we've moved into this transactional sort of capital raising environment where people have lost that relationship edge. How again, you know, maybe I'll just ask the question again, maybe in a different way, but how do how do you.

 

Sam Wilson (00:12:30) - That's a lot of high touch. I'll just say that in raising capital, in maintaining those relationships, how do you do that in a way that is scalable?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:12:39) - Yeah. Um. Today, I think less is more. When I moved to Miami a year ago, it was off of the. It was still during the tech hype and ether and a lot of people around the tech ether. And then Silicon Valley bank happened. Right. What happened is, is that everybody who I'd meet would be a founder, and it would scare me because they come and they'd have their iPad underneath their arm. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to be pitched like, this is terrible. I have to sit through this guy's PowerPoint. And what I think happened is, and you could actually maybe chalk it up to the, to the Bitcoin era when that was supercharged was that people became very transactional. And when you're dealing with people, you know, if you're selling something like a book or, you know, even a car, you know, it's very transactional.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:13:26) - You don't really have a relationship with your used car salesman, right? However, when it comes to getting money from people, people will never give you their money without first giving you their time. They want to get to know you. And this is something that goes back to biblical times that, you know, getting someone to part with their treasure for a higher calling is probably the highest calling is in sales. When you think about it, you know, funding. Look at what we're doing now raising money, bundling for politicians, war companies, whatever. There's a lot of power there. And that's the highest and best skill set you could have is not necessarily being a sales person, but being very social and being, you know, and building that network and really enjoying it. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine. Find someone who does, you know, maybe online, you can help to do that. You know, with I, I'm sure there's going to be all sorts of gimmickry that's going to be coming out with that.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:14:17) - However, you got to make an effort. And I think, you know, for me, if I make, you know, if I'm on the phone, I like meeting new people. I get introductions all the time because they do what I say I'm going to do. If you make an introduction to someone, I'm going to be there two minutes early before the zoom to make sure everything works, just to make sure you don't look like an idiot. Even if this guy doesn't do a, you know, even if this guy and I, you know, never do business together or anything like that, it's a function of your reputation. And people today, I don't think they really they don't value their reputation as much as they used to. I think they're hiding behind, you know, the pixelation of what they want the world to see as far as their Instagram and their social media. But the transactional nature has only accelerated. But in order to counter that, you have to go in the other direction.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:15:00) - And when everybody zigs, you should probably zag. And that's just fundamental for all humans. I mean, nobody goes to the movie theater to read numbers. They all get there to be entertained and hear a story, become a storyteller. People really like that. But it will also help you build your network. And then when the time comes where you need to make and ask for that network and you hold off as long as possible, then you're going to be pleasantly surprised.

 

Sam Wilson (00:15:22) - Hold off as long as possible.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:15:24) - Yeah, I think a lot of people are saying, oh, I just met this person. I want to know they're going to write a check. Well, they don't know you. They barely know your company. You can't even communicate your company correctly. It's too technical, it's too deep, it's too granular. It's confusing people. Why don't you build a relationship with this guy first, to see if this is something he's really into, rather than just treating like an ATM. And for me, it's the more value you give someone first, the better off in the position you are.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:15:52) - It's the law of reciprocal reciprocation, reciprocity. And that's really what people are motivated people today. You know, it's like I send you a copy of my book, right? I mean, thank you for having me on your podcast. But, you know, like there's reciprocity there, right? I mean, the cost a little money. Yes, I autograph it, but it's something you'll always remember. And for those of you who are looking to raise money, starting out writing a book could probably be the best thing you could ever do.

 

Sam Wilson (00:16:15) - That's interesting, I love that. That's a great that's a great tidbit. And it is. You're right. I mean, I'll be honest. I don't know what I've got episodes wise. And again, I'm not toot my own horn here, but maybe 870 some odd episodes at this point. And wow. Yeah, I remember every guest who has sent me a copy of their book. Yes. And that's I mean, that's a lot. Maybe. I mean, not a lot.

 

Sam Wilson (00:16:37) - Not not a lot that I remember, but it's like, you know, there's probably five people maybe of that 870 that sent me a copy of the book, and I can probably name them all off to you. I'm like, oh, they did. Yeah, they did, they did, they didn't, they did. Yeah. And there's a lot of episodes unfortunately, because this is quick, it's a 30 minute show. Not even it's a 20 minute interview, a 30 minute at most, where you and I might interact and remember those people and go like, well, are they hundred and 70? I can name off the top five. That's that's pretty powerful. So I love that law of reciprocity. I hadn't even really thought about that until right now.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:17:03) - Imagine bringing a book to an investment conference. And just I mean, I come with a bag and I just with a Sharpie, and I'll just sit there and, you know, if it's someone of consequence, I want to get to know instead of giving them a business card, which everybody's going to forget or nobody really understands, you have a book here and you're like, hey, you know, and somebody else notices it, what are you reading? And then it just goes around, and then people wind up buying it for their friends, and, you know, it becomes a good Christmas gift, right?

 

Sam Wilson (00:17:27) - Oh that's cool.

 

Sam Wilson (00:17:28) - That's very, very cool. And I think this is one of the things we really want to talk about on the show today was raising capital in a in a difficult capital raising environment. It sounds like that's one of the tools that really you're using to help raise capital.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:17:40) - Right now it is you know, a lot of people have come to me and they've asked and they, you know, a lot of the things that we've covered. But I think there's also some sort of people forget that. Especially new founders. We don't invest in new founders because there's a level of immaturity there that we don't, you know, they just don't have the experience. But we don't invest in new founders for several reasons, because they're, you know, they're still learning the ways and they don't have the network to get out of trouble if they, you know, should get caught into any sort of financial trouble or if they need something. Um, we I always send emails out. We interactivity is the new currency today.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:18:20) - And if you are not interacting with your investors on a regular basis, only when you're asking for money, giving them bad news, or giving them a tax bill, you're really you're not you're not doing this business correctly. Everybody today, as I said before, you are your own brand. And if you're raising capital, I don't care if it's sort of like science company. I don't care what it's for. You need to make sure that you have that connection more than just once with those investors, and you treat them like real friends. To take it a step further, you know, as I was joking around with all these founders, with their iPad underneath their arms, they were all looking for marriage on the first date. And that's creepy, right? Because when you think about it, when you're raising capital from someone, it is a marriage, right? Mean it is a marriage. You're with these people. There's an exchange of money, right? There's, you know, there is a contract there.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:19:06) - And a lot of people don't think about it that way. They just think of their investors as just being, like, needy or annoying or not. But I always make sure that I'm of service first. There are people who call me, they'll send something to me, I know I won't, I won't like at all, but I just have to be the no man to tell them no. Does that make sense? Yeah, that'd be like, look, I know this isn't for you, but can you do me a favor? Um, can you look at this? It's for my brother in law. I don't really respect him. I'm just giving you the cliff notes, you know? And he's never been successful with anything. Can you just give me a reason not to invest in this? So I just write five reasons, you know, and then, like, okay. Thank you. Right. But I'm serving them, you know, I'm helping them and that's that's important. Right. And that's, that's the most important part of it is you want to make sure that you're helping them.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:19:51) - I've helped people read their college essays, you know, rewrite their college essays sometimes, um, and I've helped, you know, I've done some consulting for families, too, who are looking to build their own family office and their own investment platforms using, you know, specialized SPV structures, fund structures, joint venture structures. And it's worked out really well. But it all comes down to one thing. If you are not building relationships actively with investors, you're not going anywhere. There's always going to be deals there. There's always going to be something there. And the last thing you want to do is go groveling to an investor when you have a great deal, when you don't have any sort of reputation with them or any sort of really relationship with them, or track record. Really.

 

Sam Wilson (00:20:29) - Right. Oh, that's that's great. That's absolutely golden. Sal, thank you for taking the time here to come on the show today. Absolutely. Last question I have for you. You've got a new book coming out.

 

Sam Wilson (00:20:38) - I know you mentioned it there briefly, but just so we make sure we capture this here on the show. What's the title of it and where do we find it?

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:20:44) - Investing legacy how the 0.001% invest. This is all the sacred lambs that I've taken and it's slaughtered using and corroborating ex bosses at Goldman Sachs. And you know, even a Rockefeller that I sit on a board with, with a with a genius biotechnology in Boston. This is really how the bias is today. And as you're starting to see the bifurcation, unfortunately, in the country of wealth where there's no middle class, it's just a richer getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. This is what people are really gravitating into. And there's really no mention of ETFs, but it talks about more or less the status of investments, like, you know, owning a professional sports team or being the guy that all your friends behind your back say, oh, I know the guy that owns that office tower over there. That's really what it is.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:21:28) - And anyone who's raising money, it would be a good fundamental insight into the psyche of how and what drives a lot of these people, because not all of them look like Warren Buffett and eat, you know, drink, you know, cherry Cokes and eat cheeseburgers. There's five different avatars I talk about in the book, and each one of them have different motivations. And I highly recommend to get the autograph version you go to investing Legacy.com forward slash book. That's investing Legacy.com forward slash book. It also is available on audible as narrated by author myself, so you can check it out there. Investing Legacy.com forward slash book. And yeah, people who buy the book will be automatically onboarded into our multifamily office platform so that you can actually see how we interact with our investors. So we'll treat you as an investor even if you're not one. Does that make sense?

 

Sam Wilson (00:22:16) - That's awesome. Sal, thank you very much for sharing that with us. We'll make sure to include that there in the show notes. Thanks again for coming on today.

 

Sam Wilson (00:22:22) - I certainly appreciate it.

 

Salvatore Buscemi (00:22:24) - Thank you so much, Sam. Appreciate you.

 

Sam Wilson (00:22:26) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.