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Listening and Prozac: Integrating Psychotherapy and Medications with Peter Kramer, MD

The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

Release Date: 11/05/2021

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"We trained pregnant and never pregnant women and we tested them on their memory for these items immediately after they learned them and then we tested them two weeks later, looking at their long term autobiographical memory. What we found was that for the immediate test, the pregnant women did better than the never pregnant women on the baby relevant items, but they had equal performance on the adult oriented items. That gives some support to our hypothesis that when you actually test for benefits in cognition for ecologically relevant items you see them in pregnancy. But very surprisingly to...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"The universality of guilt - I think that my life as a child therapist has a lot of advantages; we carry the idea that ‘we are all the ages we've ever been’ and those magic years never disappear. There are some great things about that - there are some problems with it too. That kind of irrational self-centered construction to explain what is intolerable and difficult to grasp comes from that. Early in this whole process, I remember talking to the pediatrician taking care of us: ‘Was it something in the environment? Was it the street we lived on? Was it that we lived in the basement?...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"Because I couldn't help my son, I couldn't do anything for him, I thought maybe I could start this group and help other people and other parents deal with this problem. What I wasn't prepared to face was just how lonely, how alone, how sad, and feeling hopeless I was.  In a way, when the group began, I needed the group as much as the group needed me. I've continued the group although I need it for different reasons - at that point I needed it because I felt overwhelmed because of the problem with my son. Now I need it because I’ve grown to love the people of the group and I feel a...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"If you randomly assign people in two groups and you give them different insignia or you have them go through different practices, as we saw in this study, they come to like each other more. It's very easy to create this basic sense of belonging and identity. Ritual is particularly good at eliciting that kind of sense also because it triggers our intuitions about what we call phenotypic matching, this is the idea that we have ways, psychological mechanisms, that allow us to recognize those that are members of our groups, especially kin, so if you think about it who are your kin, they're the...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"One of the things that is very exciting is that this is a very robust finding. In other words, sometimes in science people see something and then it's not replicated - Rapamycin’s impact on lifespan has been replicated. When I started researching this area 50 years ago, I never felt that we would find a pill that would have an impact on aging and lifespan. Aging is very complex - to find one thing that would have an impact was highly unlikely. So when this happened in 2009, I had a small part in this, it was really very exciting because for the first time we had something that could...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"One way a child of Jody’s age deals with loss is that you don’t miss the person, in a sense you can become them. So, I have her step into the mother role, immediately trying to look after the younger ones and then wearing her mother sunglasses - it’s like she becomes her and then you don’t miss her so much. The neighbor is like an analyst figure, and she goes over and talks to this woman, Juliette, a very kind woman. I had Juliette say to her: ‘The way I see it, a death doesn’t happen just once, it’s like we have to keep being reminded that someone is gone - remember her - miss...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"The best way to think about insulin resistance is that it’s pre-diabetes. In the course of developing type 2 diabetes, which we see in much higher rates in people with bipolar disorder compared to the general population, one starts off with normal blood sugar levels but elevated insulin. It is the elevated insulin that pushes the blood sugar down into the normal range. This is typically something that is missed by physicians because there’s been no medical indication to test for it [insulin level]. After the metabolic dysregulation progresses, patients become glucose intolerant, and at...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"When paternity leave comes into the picture you have a situation where parents are home together. Those processes are able to develop for both the mother and the father - there’s time for fathers to bond with their children, there’s time for parents to figure out how to be  parents together. It’s not so lopsided where mothers become the experts because they are there all the time. Mothers and fathers can develop that expertise together because they are both there at home at the same time. At this sort of crucial point where you figure everything out for the first time, I think it...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"There is a company called NightWare, that developed a feature for PTSD that uses components from Apple Watch. One of the primary symptoms in PTSD is intense nightmares which are very distressing, they disrupt their sleep and really drive a lot of symptomatology. This company created an app that detects when people with PTSD are having nightmares.  It uses the existing sleep function [on the watch] to detect when they are having disruptive sleep. Then it uses the vibrating haptic to wake the patient up. So it is simply just disrupting their sleep, waking them up from a nightmare, and by...

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The Mind, Body and Soul in Healing

"I would say to any parent who has a child now or any adult who has a disability now - disabilities are looked at quite differently. They are accepted much more than they were when I was growing up. So, you can’t take things out of context, but I was just living a secret life and that wasn’t good, it really wasn’t. That was why I was remote, so what I would do is dissociate when I felt the pain of being so different and I really paid a price for that. I am not sure there was any way to get through it, I was a successful child by other standards, but emotionally I was very...

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More Episodes

"I write a lot about stuckness - it’s not just how bad the thing is but whether it’s changeable and flexible - whether the patient is at least occasionally able to get out of that perspective and see things differently. For patients who are really stuck, sometimes I would give them medicine and continue psychotherapy. After six or seven months of having a different perspective, if the medicine worked, we will often be able to taper the medicine and the patient could reach at least some awareness that that fixed perspective wasn’t simply the way things were."  

 

 

Episode Description: We begin by describing severely afflicted patients for whom the use of medications is a vital part of their overall treatment. We then discuss individuals for whom medications can address psychological 'stuckness' that is not otherwise life-threatening. These are patients who are struggling with impulsiveness and ruminations that have led them to be withdrawn from a full life of interests, intimacy, and pleasures. Listening to Prozac published in 1993 drew attention to the usefulness of these new medicines to make a difference in the lives of such individuals. We review the challenges of 'having medicine as a co-therapist’ which can often involve split treatments with other providers. We close with Dr. Kramer's reflections on his many years of practice. 

 

Our Guest: Peter D. Kramer, MD is the author of seven books, including Ordinarily Well, Against Depression, Should You Leave?, the novel Spectacular Happiness, and the international bestseller Listening to Prozac. Dr. Kramer hosted the nationally syndicated public radio program, The Infinite Mind, and has appeared on the major broadcast news and talk shows, including Today, Good Morning America, Oprah, Charlie Rose, and Fresh Air. His essays, op-eds, and book reviews have appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Slate, Times Literary Supplement, and elsewhere. Dr. Kramer divides his time between Chilmark, Massachusetts, and Providence, Rhode Island, where he is Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior at Brown University.