More Than A Mile: Ep. 4 - Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer Podcast)

Michael Kilpatrick, of ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com and GrowingFarmers.com, joins host Nick Carter to discuss farming, the organic label, and the dos and don'ts of starting your own farm.

 

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. One critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:54):

Welcome to the More Than A Mile podcast. My guest today is Michael Kilpatrick, and this is a great way for me to return a favor because I was invited to be a guest on Michael's podcast a few months ago -- the Thriving Farmer podcast. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:08):

Hey, thanks for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:09):

Yeah, thanks for coming. So tell me a little bit about how you got into farming to begin with. Did you grow up as a farmer? Are you new to it?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:19):

Yes, so I mean, like I've been always growing things like my parents have pictures when we were six years old in St. Louis with now some very, very poor, anemic tomato plants growing up the side of our condo. But then we moved to the Springfield, Massachusetts area, and my dad started a garden with us, you know. He started it cause he worked full time and wanted something that he could do with us in the evenings when he came home. So we had very sandy soil, which meant that things didn't really grow super well, but he brought in compost and got books. I remember the kid's Victory Garden book, which was one of the mainstays that we had. And actually my wife a couple of years ago got me a copy because it's really hard to find now, as a Christmas present.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:02):

So I've got a copy of one of those that book again. But we started gardening and the first year I want to grow cucumbers and carrots and obviously cucumbers are up within 24 hours pretty much, but carrots take like 10 to 15 days. And so we didn't think we were gonna get any, we tilled them under then like two months later we wondered what this weed was in the garden and it was the carrots. So yeah, we kind of started around with the kind of roundabout way with the gardening. And then when we moved to upstate New York in '99 we kind of really started diving a lot more. And then by 2004 we were doing it pretty much full time and it kinda grew from there.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:39):

Wow. And now you're in the Southwest Ohio area. Is your, is your dad still involved in the farm operation with you?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:47):

Yeah. No, my parents actually, so we left New York in 2015. Our company kind of, we kind of leased out the company, moved to Ohio to be with my wife's family. So my parents ended up staying in New York for a couple more years with the land and they weren't doing any active farming. They actually now live in Lynchburg, Virginia area and my mom actually has quite the garden down there -- but just for her own consumption. But we moved, we shut down that first farm to be near my wife's family. And then our current farm kind of ramped back up summer of 2021. So basically the summer, I mean, we were, we started boots on the ground last year, but a lot of it was infrastructure. But you know, between those, we always were growing something we know there was something, not something was always growing, you know, but it really the scale back to commercial farm with a, you know, a payroll and all of that kind of started again this year.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:44):

Very exciting. And you're also very active in just educating other farmers. I want to talk a little bit about your Thriving Farmer podcast and summits. What are some of the most interesting things that you've learned during conversations with the guests on your podcast?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (04:00):

Yeah, I think the big, a huge aspect of it is there's just not one way right way to farm. There's so many versions out there. You know, again, I come back from a very regenerative organic version of farming. So, we like to see soil, things grown in soil and some of the podcast guests I've had, let's say like Elaine Ingram and you know, she just talks so much detail about the importance of the soil and just like the microbiology and stuff that's going along with with all of that. But I think the thing with that is, is like, you know, we've interviewed again, hydroponic, we've interviewed animal farmers, we've interviewed value added people. We've been interviewed so many different people, but I've obviously through all of that comes these themes. Okay. And so the themes are one, one is you have to treat your farm like a business. If you don't, you're going to go bankrupt or you're just not going to know your numbers, not make a lot of money. And, and, you know, that's something that we are factitious about is we really, really deep dive into, you know, we know the numbers on all of our crops and we still grow some that don't quite make as much money cause you kind of have to, the customer looks for that. But I mean, I can tell you that cucumbers is one of our bigger moneymakers on the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:13):

What are some of the things that you grow because the customer loves it that's just not really profitable for a farmer?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (05:18):

Yeah. That would be a sweet corn and strawberries. I mean, sweet corn, we really only did a little tiny bit this year just to kind of play around a little bit with it. Again for our farm stand, we bring it in from a couple of local folks. But strawberries again, we will not outsource that. That is something that we are very, very picky about--the varieties, the soil, when we plant them, we spent a small fortune this year on tips bringing those in, and then we root them in the greenhouse in September. And then they get planted the end of September, and then they go into the winter, and then we'll start doing the whole row cover dance. Starting at the first of, actually the last week of March, for literally three to four weeks. There's a row cover dance: on, off, on, off, trying to protect the blooms from the frost, but also allow the bees to pollinate.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:08):

But we're rewarded with a strawberry crop that's 10 days earlier than the competition. And the barriers are literally -- they're your grandma's berries, as people like to say, when they come. You know, they they'll buy two pints, they'll go sit in their car, they'll take one berry -- you can watch them -- we've got video footage of this, because we have video footage around the farm. But it was just funny, one day I was watching it, they took one berry and then they ate the rest of the pint. Then they got back out of their car and came back and bought four more pints. So, you know, that's, that's the kind of the, the quality we're looking for. There's just, you know, pull those customers back. And again, and again.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (06:43):

Yeah, these are not the same strawberries that you pick up at the grocery store.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:45):

No, no, they're not California strawberries that get shipped 3000 miles that are picked [when they are] white and the flavor is just not there. They get a little strawberry flavor, but there's not the juice. There's not the sweetness. There's not the melt in your mouth -- you know, it stains. Because those strawberries really won't stay in you and our strawberries do. And I think that's something important you gotta think about when it's really fresh. It's really incredible. Then there's going to be that, you know, that, that lasting effect.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:13):

Yeah. Sweet corn is another interesting one. We grow a lot of sweet corn too, but just like you said, it's, it's the least amount of dollars per square foot. How big is your farm there, Michael?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (07:22):

So we've got eight acres. We're an urban farm. So on one side it is train tracks and on two other sides it's houses. And then the fourth side is route 123 or Central Avenue, which our farm is named for. So yeah, we can't expand, although I did have conversation with today with someone who has got another acre there's that they are, you know, we're going to start talks about just giving us a little bit more, basically land to kind of work with. So but you know, I think going back to that aspect of, you know, the sweet corn, I mean like obviously your plant populations keep going up. So I think it used to be like 18,000, now we're about 24,000 plants to the acre. And, and the prices starting to go up, but consumers are willing to pay a lot more. I think that is one of the interesting things in the last couple of years is obviously you have those people, which, you know, $4 a dozen is all they're going to ever spend and they complain otherwise, but we were for a while, there selling a dollar an ear and people were not complaining. They were very willing to pay a price premium for an organic ear of corn.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:27):

No, you're right. The population has gone up we've we've tried the 20 to 24,000 population count. But what I've discovered is the ears are just much smaller and you end up with smaller ears and some customers pick through them or pick around them, because they're looking for, they have an expectation of a good 10 inch long ear that you can only get if you keep your populations down. And so it's an interesting calculus.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (08:48):

Yes. And so, but to the new consumer does the new consumer look for an 11 inch ear or is that someone, who again is again the...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:57):

...is an old farm boy like me...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:00):

Or, the 60 year old woman. We like to, I like, we like to say, okay, the only customers we've ever had problems with, the only ones that complain, are a 60 year old woman, unfortunately. I don't know why that is? I think that's just like they were stuck in that era of, you know, having to really, really be careful of every single penny and so that's why they're, and I said like, we're not, you know, we're not 1950s prices anymore. In 1965 does again, inflation has gotten the last year, inflation has skyrocketed. And so just for us, you know, we've had to raise prices throughout the year, just as we're like watching our supplies go up. And like our cost of shipping literally in the last month went up 30%. So yeah, it's, it's kind of scary on one aspect and just the aspect of how to communicate this to our customers and just say, "Hey, shipping has gone up 25%. We have to be able to start covering that."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:49):

And you know, speaking of what the consumer is looking for, by the way, no offense to any 60 year old women who may be listening.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:58):

Yes, exactly. I'm not, I'm not, yeah. I'm not trying to point that. I'm just trying to say that seems to be that demographic. And again, to that point though, Nick, we're very, very careful and you have to be as know who those avatars to those ideal customers are. And again, we know the four or five people that are really good for our business and we need to be very careful to attract. And the people that, Hey, they're not, they're not our customer and that's fine. Again, those people, I'm not calling them out to say, I don't want the shop. They want to shop with us. That's fine. We can't cater to them. We will send them down the road to where it's the fruit stand. Now again, I'd like to say, you know, we're a farm stand, they're a fruit stand and where a fruit stand is where they're buying in from the local, you know, six states and, you know, offering that. And that's fine. Again, that's just where they are going to find the best place to shop. And our clientele is just going to be a little bit different.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:52):

Let's talk about, what's different about your farm because, I mean, I know that there's a lot. How you grow? And one of the first questions I have is are you, do you have the little USDA circle? Are you "organic," quote, unquote?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (11:04):

Yeah, not yet. I mean, there's obviously like all sorts of like good and bad around that. Obviously over the last decade, the USDA certified organic label has been like just threshed and just, basically, destroyed because they now allow hydroponics. Yeah. Yeah. They allow industrial organic with 24,000 cow dairy. You know, that's the kind of stuff where like, okay, no, we're not, that's not organic. And that's where I love the work that some of the regenerative folks are doing. The real organic folks are doing. They're doing some amazing work to kind of bring back the standards. We are not certified organic yet because we can't because our farm is too young. So literally 24 months ago they were pulling corn off our farm. And so we still have another year to go before we can get that certification. I mean, we could have certified our greenhouses, for like our transplants and stuff. We decided just to wait until we could do everything at once.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:59):

And just to educate any new listeners who are not really familiar with this. The certified organic label requires -- is it three years...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:06):

Yes. 36 months.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:07):

...from the last time any kind of non-organic management had been taking place on the, on the land. So six years was in row crop from some row crop farmer who was certainly not organic as early as two years ago. It's just not available to you yet.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:21):

Yeah. So basically in 20 -- let's say 2019 -- we've got in 2019 in June, they sprayed 11 different herbicides trying to keep up with the weeds. So yeah, that's not great. So when we came together to really do a good job of putting lots of cover crops and lots of you know, slurries and stuff like beneficial microbe slurries to try to bring back the life to that. And we have, I mean, soil is looking really good. But yeah, I mean, so what we would say is we're regenerative. So lots of composts, we're using lots of prebiotics, mulches we are bringing in habitat strips for the beneficials. So again, we're not, you know, not, you know, it's not a wall to wall, just cropping, there's strips of willows and elderberries, and we're doing mushrooms in the woods. So again, we're trying to build this ecosystem here and it's really cool, Nick, because over the last 18 months we've watched the life come back. We now have regular hawks that hangout because we brought back the mice and the rabbits. We now have songbirds. I mean, you walk out in the evening, it's literally a cacophony of just tweeting and the music of the birds. So bats are back now. That's amazing to see too -- coming after the mosquitoes. So again, that aspect I feel like is what organic is truly about. And you know, not just this little circle as you called it earlier.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:41):

Yeah. Well, I mean, congratulations, and thank you for the way that you restored the land. I, I think that you deserve a lot of credit for that. We've, we've certainly seen how consumers really appreciate it. I wanted to ask you, what are your biggest, what's the biggest challenge right now for you to manage the land in a regenerative fashion, in what we might call sustainable -- there's a lot of keywords for this -- but in regenerative fashion what's the biggest challenge right now?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:06):

Yeah. I mean, obviously tillage is something that a lot of farmers have been talking about. And we want to do as little tillage as possible. Unfortunately, as you're converting from, let's say a row crop system, a lot of things you got to work through, you got get a lot of compaction, typically. You've got your soil, that's definitely like the nutrients aren't there. So it's a little bit of a couple of year process to really get that soil back and then you can start phasing out that tillage. And so that's one of the biggest things now we're worried about is, you know, how do we go to a lower no-till system? And obviously some things it's not possible. I mean, we do eight, almost 8,000 strawberry plants. And with 8,000 strawberry plants, you got to make beds and all of that. So it's just not -- and the labor scale is just not there --you know, to it's one thing to do a couple, a hundred foot rows, no till, and then, you know, sprinkle on the mulch.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:52):

But when you do 8,000 plants, that's a little bit different of a, of a, just a challenge to kind of do that properly. So you know, we're, we are doing till where we can, then we are moving to, you know, more of the more eco aspect of that. But I mean, over the year, we really only go through, you know, less than a hundred gallons of diesel. I mean, it's not that much that we're using to do what we need to do here to, you know, take care of the crops and, and literally save hundreds of hours. And one of the things we have chosen to do is we have chosen to mechanicalize. So we're using four wheel tractors to do cultivation, to move things around. You know, I'm in my mid thirties and, you know, I did, you know, for like, basically my last farm around 30 is when I stopped, but I already could feel my, my joints and things. So I don't want to get to another 10 years -- and, you know, like some of my other friends that have done empowered farm or market style farming is they have lost their -- they have major back issues. I don't want to see that. So we have chosen to do the mechanicalization so that, you know, at the end of, you know, when I'm 50 and 60, I can still enjoy life.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:57):

I don't think many people think about that aspect of sustainability. And nobody can see my air quotes in my hands, but that sustainability, the definition of it just simply means that you can keep -- you can sustain doing what you're doing. And if it's, you know, you out there for an eight hour shift with a hoe, yeah, no, you can't do that when you're 50, 60 years old. Not at all.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:20):

Yeah. It's a challenge. So, you know, that's sometimes, you know, we do get, you know, a flack for using, you know, geotextile fabrics and the biodegradable plastic, but I'm putting it back to you. It's like, look, we've run the numbers. We know what it takes for us to make a profit. And right now that's what it takes. You know, in five years we hope to be able to phase that kind of stuff out as we can start, you know some of our infrastructure is paid for, and we can afford to put more time and effort into actual production.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:50):

Well, one farmer to another, I'll tell you to avoid the the paper versions of those. The fiber ones.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:56):

Yeah. I've have heard those things are a little bit of a disaster sometimes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:59):

Oh, completely we, we tried it on our, under our tomatoes this last year. And it was great until about mid June when it, I mean, the decomposition of those things was a little more accelerated than we wanted. And before you know, it, you've got, you've got weeds coming up through them and they're disintegrating and falling apart, but we had set everything up to be no till. So we couldn't get out there and do anything about it. It was a nightmare. So then you have, we're gonna try plastics this next year.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (17:24):

Yeah. Strips of paper blowing around and weeds everywhere...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:28):

Yeah, yeah. And once it tears in one spot, it can make, like you said, blow up and then it actually starts ripping plants up with it. You know, it gets out in, you're running a parachute underneath your tomato vine. So avoid those, if you can, like, right. Here's your tip for the day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:43):

So how, you know, as you're building a, that is not yet certified organic and you, you talk about the principles and how you want to grow. And there's really a lot of explanation about what makes your farm different. How do you get that message to the consumer? How are you able to connect with the consumer and let them understand why your sweet corn is different -- why your strawberries are different?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (18:08):

Well, I'm going to pull this up here because there is very specific ways we talk about this. Okay. We've got a little blurb as it were. So this is what we say. And obviously, because we sell on Market Wagon too, so we use that little blurb on there, "We love growing nutrient dense, safe food for you and your family. It's important to us that we eat what we grow. So that means we grow our food without harmful pesticides, herbicides, or fungicides to make sure our fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, and transplants are as good as they can be. We use compost, rock dusts, and prebiotics to fuel the soil, encourage beneficial insects, bees, and earthworm habitat and work with nature to produce the best food possible." So, you know, that's the longer version that we put everywhere. Obviously when people ask, they say, are you organic? And we'll be like, "well, we're in transition to organic. And we use beyond organic methods." That's the quick, dirty version. When, you know, someone's asking me, you know, face to face. And then obviously if they're on the farm, I can just point. And because we're such a small farm, I say, well, there's our compost piles. And here's where our beneficial insects hang out. And, you know, here's where our mushrooms are and the mushroom blocks fuel the compost, which then goes into the field. So that's kind of what we can do. And that's the fun aspect of giving people farm tours -- is to be able to walk them through the different areas of -- and show them -- the sustainability and how we're basically producing a superior product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (19:30):

Speaking of Market Wagon. And, you know, obviously I live in a digital world. That's, that's kind of what we have staked everything on. And have you found that has been possible to create that same kind of relationship online, your consumers that maybe haven't been to the farm still have a relationship with you and understand what you're doing differently?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (19:49):

Yeah, it is a little more challenging because we can't, and it's really interesting because the market wagon folks, which, because the, your guys are getting is like a 14 counties you guys cover, which is a huge geographical area, is those people don't really want to come out to the farm. We've tried to lure them because we want to get some of the customer ratings for, we want to say, we get them out, then they can do a review of us so that you guys had that new thing, which is super cool, but we've actually had a hard time getting people to do that because they just don't want to come out to the farm. So what we do encourage is we try to push them to our Facebook page because that's how I really communicate. Obviously I do a lot of talking with my other businesses. I'm really comfortable on camera. So I do a lot of live videos on the farm, walking around, showing what's going on, talking about how we're doing it. And so that's where we really push people to, because I can get them there. We do it live so they can comment below and they can, they've asked a question. I can answer it right then and there. So that's kind of what we've done. And then obviously, you know what, they it on our email list too. We can send out emails and stuff through that as well. But Facebook, Instagram, I think is the strongest aspect. And again, I'm not a, I don't love social media just because of all the inherent challenges with it, but it is really one of the best ways for us to reach our people if they don't want to come out to the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:09):

That's great. So speaking of your, you said you mentioned your other businesses you have done a lot to train, educate, and help other farmers to succeed. What, what piece of advice would you have for any new first-time farmers who want to get into the business?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (21:25):

Yeah, I think you don't dive, don't go out and spend $20,000 or hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy a farm and buy equipment and just start. If you are interested, pay down your debt. So I don't know to say, to get debt free, but having low outgoing is always going to be way, way, way more advantageous than, you know, just assign the dive in. You know, it's really sad. I've been watching a farmer out -- I forget where he is. He's a north of us, a couple of states north of us. But you know, he basically had limited success one year on his home property, decided to quit his job, start a very large farm operation. He had some weather challenges, but there was one line in his -- one line that he kind of put out there and is like, "we expected the farm to pay our expenses this year," -- in his first year of farming. I mean, like we're not even taking a salary from our farm. I mean, you know, we understand what it's like to build that first year aspect. So what I would say, get those outgoings down as low as possible, get a couple years on another farm -- go work for somebody, make some mistakes on their dollar, not yours. And then start small. Okay. Start really small -- quarter-acre, half-acre, And make sure, you know, what you want to do. Like if you work at a dairy farm for two years, you know that your apprenticeship you're going to probably do a much better job with the dairy than just saying, well, I'm going to do vegetables if you want. Yeah. So make sure you're stay in that lane and then just run your numbers, always be running your numbers. You know, we obviously, our pricing -- let's go back to Market Wagon, our pricing on Market Wagon. You guys obviously need a percentage because the whole platform you have to run and all the expenses you guys have. But we, so we don't actually mark up that percentage, the product, we mark up a fraction, a fraction of that, because we also know that we're not having them market that ourselves. So we have this, this formula we kind of use and that we know like, are there, you know and where we can play with that as well. So again, if you know your numbers, you can be incredibly competitive in the marketplace and know what's your competitive advantage. There's certain crops we know we can drop down low to pull new customers in. We know there's other crops we can't do that with. It's, you know, we just kind of have to stick with what we've got and it's just basically a service we're offering for those few customers that want that specific product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:45):

Great. So it's basically, you have to be as good at running a business as you do at growing vegetables.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (23:51):

Oh, absolutely. You've got to be, as my mentor said, you've got to be, "first, you've got to be a marketer, then a business person, and finally a farmer."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:01):

Yeah. We're just barely ahead of you on our own farm. We're in our third season and this'll be the first year that we've taken a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:07):

Oh, wow. Well, that's good. Yeah. The year three is going to be taking a salary. Usually we see it between year three and year five.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:14):

Yeah. It's not a big one, but it's a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:17):

That's good. Yes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:18):

Yeah. Well, I really, this has been a fun conversation and I appreciate you giving us the time. I want to know. In addition to finding you on Market Wagon, which our listeners can connect with you there, where else can listeners connect with you and learn more about the enterprises that you have going?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:37):

Yeah. So, ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com. We have over 150 episodes now. Wide range of things -- GrowingFarmers.com. And then if you really just want to get like, inside my life and find out, you know, how busy I am, I'm now, you know, we have two businesses with employees. I'm now a councilman in our little city here of Carlisle, and I have three kids. Follow me on Facebook. I tend to put most of my content out there. So I know that that's not how you're supposed to do it, but yeah, if you really want to kind of follow the craziness that happens here, check that out.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:14):

All right, I'm going to be following you right now, Michael, if I haven't already. Michael Kilpatrick has been my guest today on More Than A Mile. And it's been a pleasure talking with you about farming, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (25:25):

All right. Thanks so much for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:26):

Thanks for being here.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:33):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.