#56 - Ending the Billable Hour: Chris Grant’s Mission to Transform Legal Services
Release Date: 11/19/2024
#72 - Moderna GC’s AI Strategy
Pearls On, Gloves Off
What does it look like when a general counsel doesn’t just adopt AI—but rewires her entire legal function around it? In this episode, Mary O’Carroll sits down with Shannon Thyme Klinger, Chief Legal Officer at Moderna and President of Moderna Charitable Foundation. Named by the Financial Times as one of the most innovative GCs of the past two decades, Shannon is reshaping what it means to lead a legal team—and a profession—through profound change. In this episode: “AI won’t replace lawyers, but…” Shannon lays out her bold vision: why lawyers who don’t harness AI may get...
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#71 - How to Hire (and Get Hired) in Legal Ops
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In this episode, Mary O’Carroll reunites with Anne Kerwin Payne of Kerwin Associates to dig into one of the most misunderstood yet high-stakes roles in legal: in-house legal operations. If you’re a GC hiring for legal ops—or a candidate trying to land that elusive “head of legal ops” title—this one’s for you. Anne brings decades of legal recruiting insight, a front-row seat to the evolution of the legal ops role, and a refreshingly candid take on what works (and what definitely doesn’t). In this episode: What Even Is This Job? Why the role of legal ops is still hard to...
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#70 - Data, AI, and the New Legal Ops Playbook
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When legal ops meets the AI data revolution, what does it actually look like on the ground? In this episode, Mary O’Carroll sits down with Aaron Bromagem, Head of Legal Operations at Snowflake, to talk about what it means to lead legal ops inside one of the top AI and data companies—and why the role today is barely recognizable from just a few years ago. Aaron shares how his team is navigating breakneck change, massive expectations from leadership, and a vendor landscape that’s expanding faster than anyone can track. If you’ve ever felt like your strategy gets outdated before you even...
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#69 - Why VCs Are Betting Billions On Legal Tech
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Years before legal tech hit the mainstream, Jake Saper was already placing bets. As a General Partner at Emergence Capital, Jake helped fund foundational legal tech startups like Ironclad and SimpleLegal—long before most VCs would touch the sector. In this episode, Mary sits down with Jake to unpack his early insights and where he sees the industry heading next. From CLM to AI agents, they explore what’s real, what’s hype, and what buyers and founders should really be paying attention to. Jake isn’t just a savvy investor—he’s a pattern recognizer who sees how AI, pricing models,...
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#68 - Law Firms Enter The AI Arms Race
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Two years ago, Max Junestrand was pitching his legal AI tool in Stockholm. Today, he leads one of the fastest-growing and most talked-about startups in the legal tech space. In this episode, Mary sits down with the CEO of Legora to unpack what’s really happening at the intersection of AI and the legal industry—and what’s coming next. In this episode: Zero to Ninety: How Legora grew from 3 co-founders in a tiny room to nearly 90 employees in under two years—and why growth at that pace is both exhilarating and challenging. The AI Arms Race: Why Max thinks we're past the “zero to...
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#67 - The Multinational CLO
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When Mary O’Carroll arrived at Goodwin, she didn’t expect to find a "General Counsel in Residence" — and certainly not one with the powerhouse career of Genevieve Kelly. In this episode, Mary sits down with Genevieve, whose career includes GC and CLO roles at household names like Panera Bread, Petco, and Dole Food Company. Together, they dive deep into what it really takes to lead legal functions inside massive global organizations — and what Genevieve has learned transitioning between companies, cultures, and leadership roles. In this episode: Homegrown GC: How Genevieve rose from...
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#66 - So you wanna be a GC?
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When your board asks, “Why this GC?”, you'd better have a good answer. That’s where Anne Kerwin Payne comes in. In this episode, Mary O’Carroll sits down with one of the most trusted names in legal executive search. As founder and managing director of Kerwin Associates, Anne has helped place legal and compliance leaders at some of the most innovative companies in the world. She knows what it takes to stand out—and what gets overlooked. They dive deep into what CEOs are really looking for in today’s legal hires, and why pedigree alone won’t cut it. Whether you’re an aspiring...
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#65 - What It Really Takes to Be a CLO Today
Pearls On, Gloves Off
Producer’s Note: Oops—we hit a tech snag and the original episode got clipped. Here is the full version. Thanks for bearing with us! When April Miller Boise says she runs into burning buildings, she’s not exaggerating—she thrives in transformation. As EVP, Chief Legal Officer, and Corporate Secretary at Intel, April brings a rare blend of legal precision and big-picture business leadership to one of the most complex roles in the C-suite. In this episode, April sits down with Mary to unpack what it really takes to become a CLO today—and why it’s nothing like the GC roles of the...
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#64 - Why Playing by the Rules Won’t Get You Promoted
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Today, Mary sits down with Kathy Dockry, a seasoned leadership coach who has spent over 20 years accelerating the success of high-achieving professionals on their journey to executive leadership. Before stepping into the world of coaching, Kathy was a corporate powerhouse herself, rising to become CEO and North American President of a major British energy company. But she didn’t start there—her roots are in law. Having worked as a litigator in two large New York firms and serving as a general counsel before transitioning into operational leadership, Kathy understands firsthand the...
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#63 - Is 2025 The Year Law Firms Finally Transform? - A Conversation with Matt Sunderman, CEO of Harbor Global
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Welcome to another episode of Pearls On, Gloves Off with your host, Mary O'Carroll, Chief Operating Officer at Goodwin. In this episode, Mary sits down with Matt Sunderman, CEO of Harbor Global, to explore the current state and future of legal transformation across law firms and corporate legal departments. Matt Sunderman brings over two decades of experience in the legal industry, leading Harbor Global, the newly branded combination of HBR Consulting, LAC Group, Wilson Allen, and others. His unique position at the intersection of law firms, corporate legal departments, and technology...
info_outlineWelcome to another episode of Pearls On, Gloves Off with your host, Mary O’Carroll, Chief Operating Officer at Goodwin. Today, Mary dives deep with Chris Grant, Head of Legal Market Engagement at HSBC, to unravel the evolving landscape of the legal industry.
Chris Grant isn’t your typical legal professional. Frustrated by the glacial pace of change in an industry resistant to innovation, Chris has spent his career challenging the status quo. From his early days in private practice to his current role at HSBC, he’s been a relentless advocate for efficiency and transformation in legal services. He’s built ecosystems supporting next-generation legal solutions, notably at Barclays Eagle Labs, and has been recognized in the Financial Times Innovative Lawyers Top 10 Entrepreneurs and the Legal 500 GC Power List.
In this episode:
· The Frustration That Fuels Change: Chris shares how his early career disillusionment ignited a passion for legal transformation.
· Is Change Finally Happening? A candid discussion on whether the legal industry is genuinely evolving or just paying lip service.
· The Death of the Billable Hour: Will we ever see it? Chris offers a provocative take on alternative fee arrangements—or as he calls them, Effective Fee Arrangements (EFAs).
· Trust Issues: Delving into the often-unspoken lack of trust between clients and firms, and how it hinders progress.
· Data as the New Gold: How leveraging data can revolutionize legal services, from pricing to service delivery.
· Advice for In-House Teams and Firms: Practical steps both sides can take to build trust, embrace innovation, and deliver real value.
· The Role of Technology: Why AI is more than just a buzzword and how it’s accelerating conversations that were stagnant for decades.
· Future Gazing: Chris’s vision for the next 5-10 years in legal services, and why he believes the time for change is now.
If you’re as passionate about legal transformation as Mary and Chris, or just curious about the seismic shifts shaking up the industry, this episode is a must-listen.
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