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Testing as Measurement—Why Bug-Hunting Misses the Point With Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Release Date: 12/10/2025

Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer | Steve Martin show art Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer In this episode, we refer to video and . The Great Product Owner: Rob Gard's Customer Obsession Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "The role of the PO really is to help the team empathize with the user, the customer of the product, because that's how they can develop great solutions." - Steve Martin   Rob Gard worked at a fintech firm and is now CPO of a major fintech company. Steve...

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Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work | Steve Martin show art Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "It is not the retrospective that is the success of the retrospective. It is the ownership and accountability where you take improvements after the session." - Steve Martin   The biggest problem for Scrum Masters isn't just defining success—it's being able to shout it from the rooftops with tangible evidence. Steve champions OKRs as an amazing...

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Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach | Steve Martin show art Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "We teach transformation, we support transformation, we help change, but we don't really understand what they're changing from." - Steve Martin   Steve believes Agile as a whole is on the back foot, possibly regressing. There's palpable fatigue in the industry, and transformation in its current form hasn't been the success we hoped. Organizations still...

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When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void | Steve Martin show art When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "They weren't a team, they were a group of individuals working on multiple different projects." - Vasco Duarte (describing Steve's team situation)   The infrastructure team looked promising on paper: Product Owner in Italy, hardware engineers in Budapest, software engineers in Bucharest, designers in the UK. The team started with energy and...

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When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change | Steve Martin show art When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "It took me a while to realize that that's what I was doing. I felt the reason wasn't working was them, it wasn't me." - Steve Martin   Steve carried the Scrum Guide like a Bible in his early days as an Agile coach. He was a purist—convinced he had an army of Agile practitioners behind him, ready to transform every team he encountered. When teams...

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BONUS The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles With Vasco Duarte show art BONUS The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles With Vasco Duarte

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

BONUS: The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles In this BONUS episode, the final installment of our Special Xmas 2025 reflection on Software-native businesses, we explore the five fundamental principles that form the operating system for software-native organizations. Building on the previous four episodes, this conversation provides the blueprint for building organizations that can adapt at the speed of modern business demands, where the average company lifespan on the S&P 500 has dropped from 33 years in the 1960s to a projected 12 years by...

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Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

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Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Xmas Special: Recovering the Essence of Agile - What's Already Working in Software-Native Organizations In this BONUS Xmas Special episode, we explore what happens when we strip away the certifications and branded frameworks to recover the essential practices that make software development work. Building on Episode 2's exploration of the Project Management Trap, Vasco reveals how the core insights that sparked the Agile revolution remain valid - and how real organizations like Spotify, Amazon, and Etsy embody these principles to thrive in today's software-driven world. The answer isn't to...

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Xmas Special: Why project management tools fail software development - and what works instead! In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into The Project Management Trap, continuing our exploration from Episode 1 where we established that software is societal infrastructure being managed with tools from the 1800s. We examine why project management frameworks - designed for building railroads and ships - are fundamentally misaligned with software development, and what happens when we treat living capabilities like construction projects with defined endpoints. The Origin Story - Where Project...

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Xmas Special: Software Industry Transformation - Why Software Development Must Mature - a five-episode deep dive into how software as an industry needs to transform. In this opening episode, we explore the fundamental disconnect between how we manage software and what software actually is. From small businesses to global infrastructure, software has become the backbone of modern society, yet we continue to manage it with tools designed for building ships in the 1800s. This episode sets the stage for understanding why software development must evolve into a mature discipline. Software...

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BONUS: Testing as Measurement—Why Bug-Hunting Misses the Point With Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel

The Revelation That Almost Caused a Car Crash

"Tom said like 10 sentences in a row, kind of like a geometric proof, that just so blew my mind I almost drove off the road. I realized I had wasted hundreds of hours in boardrooms arguing about errors of which we were aware of perhaps 10%."

 

Simon shares the moment Tom's framework clicked for him. The insight? Traditional testing—finding bugs and defects—is the wrong focus entirely. It's a programmer's view of the world. Managers don't care about bugs; they care about results, about improvements in their business. Tom calls this shift moving from "testing" to "measurement of enhanced or increased value at every cycle."

The American Toast Problem

"How do we make toast in America? We burn the toast, and then we pay someone to scrape off the black bits off the bread."

 

Vasco invokes Deming's classic analogy to describe traditional software testing. The entire testing-at-the-end approach is fundamentally wasteful. Instead, Tom advocates for continuous measurement against quantified values. If you expected 3% progress toward your goals this week and didn't get it, you've learned something critical: your strategy needs to change. If you did get it, keep going with confidence.

Four Questions at Every Checkpoint

"Where are we going? Where are we now? Where should we have been at this point? And why is there a gap?"

 

Drawing from fighter pilot doctrine, these four questions should be asked at every micro-cycle—not just at quarterly reviews. Fighter pilots ask these questions every minute during critical missions, with clear abort criteria if answers are unacceptable. Most organizations have no abort criteria for their strategies at all, guaranteeing they'll discover failures far too late.

 

About Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel

 

Tom Gilb, born in the US, lived in London, and then moved to Norway in 1958. An independent teacher, consultant, and writer, he has worked in software engineering, corporate top management, and large-scale systems engineering. As the saying goes, Tom was writing about Agile before Agile was named. In 1976, Tom introduced the term "evolutionary" in his book Software Metrics, advocating for development in small, measurable steps. Today, we talk about Evo, the name Tom uses to describe his approach. Tom has worked with Dr. Deming and holds a certificate personally signed by him.

You can listen to Tom Gilb’s previous episodes here

 

You can link with Tom Gilb on LinkedIn 

 

Simon Holzapfel is an educator, coach, and learning innovator who helps teams work with greater clarity, speed, and purpose. He specializes in separating strategy from tactics, enabling short-cycle decision-making and higher-value workflows. Simon has spent his career coaching individuals and teams to achieve performance with deeper meaning and joy. Simon is also the author of the Equonomist newsletter on Substack.

And you can listen to Simon’s previous episodes on the podcast here

 

You can link with Simon Holzapfel on LinkedIn.