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The Agile Organization as a Learning System With Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Release Date: 12/12/2025

Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer | Steve Martin show art Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer In this episode, we refer to video and . The Great Product Owner: Rob Gard's Customer Obsession Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "The role of the PO really is to help the team empathize with the user, the customer of the product, because that's how they can develop great solutions." - Steve Martin   Rob Gard worked at a fintech firm and is now CPO of a major fintech company. Steve...

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Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work | Steve Martin show art Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "It is not the retrospective that is the success of the retrospective. It is the ownership and accountability where you take improvements after the session." - Steve Martin   The biggest problem for Scrum Masters isn't just defining success—it's being able to shout it from the rooftops with tangible evidence. Steve champions OKRs as an amazing...

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Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach | Steve Martin show art Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "We teach transformation, we support transformation, we help change, but we don't really understand what they're changing from." - Steve Martin   Steve believes Agile as a whole is on the back foot, possibly regressing. There's palpable fatigue in the industry, and transformation in its current form hasn't been the success we hoped. Organizations still...

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When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void | Steve Martin show art When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "They weren't a team, they were a group of individuals working on multiple different projects." - Vasco Duarte (describing Steve's team situation)   The infrastructure team looked promising on paper: Product Owner in Italy, hardware engineers in Budapest, software engineers in Bucharest, designers in the UK. The team started with energy and...

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When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change | Steve Martin show art When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change | Steve Martin

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Steve Martin: When the Gospel of Agile Becomes a Barrier to Change Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: .   "It took me a while to realize that that's what I was doing. I felt the reason wasn't working was them, it wasn't me." - Steve Martin   Steve carried the Scrum Guide like a Bible in his early days as an Agile coach. He was a purist—convinced he had an army of Agile practitioners behind him, ready to transform every team he encountered. When teams...

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BONUS The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles With Vasco Duarte show art BONUS The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles With Vasco Duarte

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

BONUS: The Operating System for Software-Native Organizations - The Five Core Principles In this BONUS episode, the final installment of our Special Xmas 2025 reflection on Software-native businesses, we explore the five fundamental principles that form the operating system for software-native organizations. Building on the previous four episodes, this conversation provides the blueprint for building organizations that can adapt at the speed of modern business demands, where the average company lifespan on the S&P 500 has dropped from 33 years in the 1960s to a projected 12 years by...

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BONUS Breaking Through The Organizational Immune System | Vasco Duarte show art BONUS Breaking Through The Organizational Immune System | Vasco Duarte

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

BONUS: Breaking Through The Organizational Immune System - Why Software-Native Organizations Are Still Rare With Vasco Duarte In this BONUS episode, we explore the organizational barriers that prevent companies from becoming truly software-native. Despite having proof that agile, iterative approaches work at scale—from Spotify to Amazon to Etsy—most organizations still struggle to adopt these practices. We reveal the root cause behind this resistance and expose four critical barriers that form what we call "The Organizational Immune System." This isn't about resistance to change; it's...

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BONUS: Recovering the Essence of Agile - What's Already Working With Vasco Duarte show art BONUS: Recovering the Essence of Agile - What's Already Working With Vasco Duarte

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Xmas Special: Recovering the Essence of Agile - What's Already Working in Software-Native Organizations In this BONUS Xmas Special episode, we explore what happens when we strip away the certifications and branded frameworks to recover the essential practices that make software development work. Building on Episode 2's exploration of the Project Management Trap, Vasco reveals how the core insights that sparked the Agile revolution remain valid - and how real organizations like Spotify, Amazon, and Etsy embody these principles to thrive in today's software-driven world. The answer isn't to...

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Xmas Special: Why project management tools fail software development - and what works instead! show art Xmas Special: Why project management tools fail software development - and what works instead!

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Xmas Special: Why project management tools fail software development - and what works instead! In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into The Project Management Trap, continuing our exploration from Episode 1 where we established that software is societal infrastructure being managed with tools from the 1800s. We examine why project management frameworks - designed for building railroads and ships - are fundamentally misaligned with software development, and what happens when we treat living capabilities like construction projects with defined endpoints. The Origin Story - Where Project...

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Xmas Special: Software Industry Transformation - Why Software Development Must Mature With Vasco Duarte show art Xmas Special: Software Industry Transformation - Why Software Development Must Mature With Vasco Duarte

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Xmas Special: Software Industry Transformation - Why Software Development Must Mature - a five-episode deep dive into how software as an industry needs to transform. In this opening episode, we explore the fundamental disconnect between how we manage software and what software actually is. From small businesses to global infrastructure, software has become the backbone of modern society, yet we continue to manage it with tools designed for building ships in the 1800s. This episode sets the stage for understanding why software development must evolve into a mature discipline. Software...

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More Episodes

BONUS: The Agile Organization as a Learning System

Think Like a Farmer, Not a Factory Manager

"Go slow to go fast. If you want to go somewhere, go together as a team. Take a farmer's mentality."

 

Simon contrasts monoculture industrial thinking with the permaculture approach of Joel Salatin. Industrial approaches optimize for short-term efficiency but create fragile systems. Farmer thinking recognizes that healthy ecosystems require patience, diversity, and nurturing conditions for growth. The nervous system that's constantly stressed never builds much over time—think of the body, trust the body, let the body be a body.

Value Masters, Not Scrum Masters

"We need value masters, not Scrum Masters. Agile is a useful tool for delivering value, but value itself is primary. Everything else is secondary—Agile included."

 

Tom makes his most provocative point: if you asked a top manager whether they'd prefer an agile person or value delivery, the answer is obvious. Agile is one tactic among many for delivering value—not even a necessary one. The shift required is from process mastery to value mastery, from Scrum Masters to people who understand and can deliver on critical stakeholder values.

The DOVE Manifesto

"I wrote a paper called DOVE—Deliver Optimum Values Efficiently. It's the manifesto focusing on delivering value, delivering value, delivering value."

 

Tom offers his alternative to the Agile Manifesto: a set of principles laser-focused on value delivery. The document includes 10 principles on a single page that can guide any organization toward genuine impact. Everything else—processes, frameworks, methodologies—are secondary tools in service of this primary goal.

Read Tom’s DOVE manifesto here

Building the Glue Between Social and Physical Technology

"Value is created in interactions. That's where the social and physical technology meet—that joyous boundary where stuff gets done."

 

Simon describes seeing the world through two lenses: physical technology (visible tools and systems) and social technology (culture, relationships, the air we breathe). Eric Beinhoeker's insight is that progress happens at the intersection. The Gilbian learning loops provide the structure; trust and human connection provide the fuel. Together, they create organizations that can actually learn and adapt.

 

Further Reading To Support Your Learning Journey

Resources & Further Reading

Explore these curated resources to deepen your understanding of strategic planning, value-based management, and transformative organizational change.

 


 

📚 Essential Reading

Competitive Engineering 

Tom Gilb's seminal book on requirements engineering and value-based development approaches.

What is Wrong with OKRs (Paper by Tom Gilb)
A critical analysis of the popular OKR framework and its limitations in measuring real value.

DOVE Manifesto by Tom Gilb
Detailed exploration of the DOVE (Design Of Value Engineering) methodology for quantifying and optimizing stakeholder value.

 


 

🎓 Learning Materials

Tom Gilb's Strategy Ringbook
A comprehensive collection of strategic planning principles and practical frameworks.

Tom Gilb's Video at the Strategy Meetup
Watch Tom Gilb discuss key strategic concepts and answer questions from the community.

Design Process Paper by Tom Gilb
An in-depth look at value-driven design processes and their practical application.

Esko Kilpi's Work on Conversations
Exploring how organizational conversations shape thinking, decision-making, and change.

 


 

🧭 Frameworks & Models

OODA Loop
The Observe-Orient-Decide-Act decision cycle for rapid strategic thinking and adaptation.

 


 

🎯 Practical Tips

Measurement of Increased Value

Focus on tracking actual value delivery rather than activity completion. Establish baseline measurements and regularly assess improvements in stakeholder-defined value dimensions.

Quantify Critical Values

Identify the 3-5 most important value attributes for your stakeholders. Make these concrete and measurable, avoiding vague qualities in favor of specific, quantifiable metrics.

Measurement vs Testing Process

Understand the distinction: measurement tells you how much value exists, while testing validates whether something works. Use both strategically—test hypotheses early, then measure outcomes continuously.

 


 

🔗 Related Profiles

Todd Covert - Montessori School of the Berkshires
Educational leadership and innovative approaches to value-based learning environments.

 

About Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel

 

Tom Gilb, born in the US, lived in London, and then moved to Norway in 1958. An independent teacher, consultant, and writer, he has worked in software engineering, corporate top management, and large-scale systems engineering. As the saying goes, Tom was writing about Agile before Agile was named. In 1976, Tom introduced the term "evolutionary" in his book Software Metrics, advocating for development in small, measurable steps. Today, we talk about Evo, the name Tom uses to describe his approach. Tom has worked with Dr. Deming and holds a certificate personally signed by him.

You can listen to Tom Gilb’s previous episodes here

 

You can link with Tom Gilb on LinkedIn 

 

Simon Holzapfel is an educator, coach, and learning innovator who helps teams work with greater clarity, speed, and purpose. He specializes in separating strategy from tactics, enabling short-cycle decision-making and higher-value workflows. Simon has spent his career coaching individuals and teams to achieve performance with deeper meaning and joy. Simon is also the author of the Equonomist newsletter on Substack.

And you can listen to Simon’s previous episodes on the podcast here

 

You can link with Simon Holzapfel on LinkedIn.