[Cold Open]
Elyse Do you know what I just realized? I meant to do this on our like second last episode, and then I forgot to do it but I was going to tell you guys I was backing out of the podcast with no notice as like a joke with one episode left, and then I forgot to do it.
Ashley Oh, no hahaha
Steph What a great prank!
Megan Ashley can you go back and edit that in?
[Spice Invaders Theme Song]
Ashley It’s our last recording!
Elyse I know!
Ashley It's so strange.
Sinead It's insane.
Elyse Bittersweet for sure.
Sinead Yeah. When I was working on the conclusion this afternoon, I was like- didn't get like emotional, but I was like, oh.
Elyse Aww.
Cheryl We ready to start?
Ashley Yeah
Elyse Yes.
Cheryl Awesome. So we're gonna pick up where we left off last time at the end of the Spice World tour. Melanie B married Jimmy Gulzar on September 13, 1998. OK Magazine pays 350,000 pounds for exclusive photos of the wedding.
Sinead And if you'd like to see one of those exclusive photos, you should go to your Spice Girl chat.
Elyse Oh, my. That is a white cowboy hat. I am confused about the theme because he looks like it's like a fancy Western vibe. But then Mel B is in, like, a masquerade Trojan dress?
Steph Yeah... And the three girls (cause there's obviously no Geri) look like they're wearing white suits that I feel like they wore for an event or a video or something? Or they just repurposed them?
Sinead They wore- I don't know if these were the same white suits, but for the LA premiere of Spice World. They did wear white suits.
Megan Quite casual for a wedding.
Elyse Yeah, Geri must have been invited, right? And then... I wonder if they, like, actively uninvited her or she just didn't show up?
Sinead Mel B's wedding was organized pretty last minute. So, like- I shouldn't say last minute. It was like- it was four month engagement at the most. And she got engaged to Jimmy maybe like three weeks before Geri quit the Spice Girls. So I don't think she was invited because it wasn't like it wasn't like the classic like send wedding invites out a year in advance. Because she, like-
Elyse Was she pregnant?
Sinead Yes, she was pregnant. With Phoenix.
Elyse Oh, okay.
Sinead Yeah. And the reception was at a house that she had just purchased like literally one or two months before and they like threw a party there for it.
Elyse Damn, they everything at the same time! That's so stressful. Wedding, baby, and house in like three months. That's crazy.
Ashley And tour!
Elyse Yeah, and tour.
Cheryl AND her first single! The day after her wedding, she drops her first solo single and the first solo that any of the Spice Girls released: "I Want You Back", which was written by Missy Elliott, who's also featured on the track. It debuts at number one on the UK and European charts.
Elyse Wow, big year. That's pretty good.
Megan Was that like a known thing? Everyone knew she was recording a single?
Sinead Yeah!
Megan Yeah?
Sinead Yeah and actually interesting tidbit: it made Missy Elliott the first Black female rapper to debut on the UK charts. And she was the first Black female rapper to get a number one single in the UK and also in Europe, because of this collab with Mel B.
Megan That's very cool.
Elyse Awesome that she did that but also it breaks my heart a little bit because Missy Elliot is so incredible and has such a deep catalogue and the fact that she only got there because she was on Mel B's album, like bums me out a little bit. But I'm glad that she got there.
Steph I mean, I guess it just worked out as like an entry point into the charts for her there.
Sinead For sure, because I think she was more much more popular in the US. And also we know that hip hop is more popular in the US than I think anywhere else.
Elyse Oh, that's fair. I wasn't thinking about the different markets. That makes sense.
Sinead So back to the- I'd mentioned to you guys that Mel B had bought a house. Um, she was actually dealing with a really shitty issue at this time, which was super racist neighbours. So she bought a two and a half million pound home in Little Marlow Buckinghamshire, which is decently close to London, and she held her wedding reception there. She held the wedding ceremony at a little chapel that's adjacent to her property. However, after she settled in, she received racist hate mail from neighbours into her mailbox which said that she didn't belong there. Yeah. She didn't talk about this for a long time but according to her in an interview, one of the letters said quote, "Get out, you don't belong. You can't buy something like this." And she said that it really disturbed her but she quote, "I still threw some good parties there, really loud to disturb the whole village."
Megan Good for her. What is wrong with people? Like actually!
Steph Yeah, that's insane.
Sinead The neighbours- when she came out with the story, which I think was in 2018, other people Little Marlow were like, "no, that didn't really happen" and then police actually confirmed that it had because Mel B's team had brought them the letters because they were worried it was a security issue and she was a very famous woman so she had a security team. So it was like these Little Marlow people were like "no, that never happened" and then the police were like "actually it did and like even we're confirming it."
Megan How would you know?! Like okay, so if one of my neighbours sent another of my neighbours a letter, like they're racist too! Just denying it, like they probably know nothing about it. Either way.
Elyse Such a weird line, like, "you can't buy something like this"? It's such a weirdly direct... almost like subversion of all of the like dances that people do to disguise their racism? To be like "oh, it's not about race it's about class". That person was straight up like "Nope, we don't care how much money you have.We don't care if you're the same class. You're you're not white. And so you can't be here" Like, it's really jarring, that one line.
Sinead For sure it is.
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl The next Spice Girl to release a single is actually Mel C. She collaborates with Bryan Adams on "When You're Gone". It's released on November 30, 1998. It's a song that I in particular know well because it got a lot of airplay in Canada because of our CanCon laws. Bryan Adams had co-written the song with Elliott Kennedy. As we know from previous episodes, he worked on the first Spice album. But Bryan Adams actually wanted Sheryl Crow, who never called him back, or Janet Jackson before he agreed to work with Mel C, and Elliot Kennedy made that happen for him. They actually didn't record it in the studio. He recorded it in Vancouver and she recorded in London and the song reached number three on the UK charts and only hit number twelve in Canada.
Steph That's surprising. Like, I remember that song so well because... yeah, I mean he was Canadian so it obviously got played a lot because it was also during Bryan Adams kind of heyday. I'm so surprised for all the air play it got- and I could, I have it in my brain right now. I can probably sing half, at least half, the words to it.
Elyse Could you please sing like one line because I can't remember the song at all. I think there's a Matchbox 20 song that's "When You're Gone" and that's all I can think about.
Ashley I don't remember the words but it's like- [starts singing]
Sinead I know all the words. It's like "baby when you're goooone, I think that I'm in love"..
[Everyone except Elyse singing]
Ashley And then it's like "OH BABY when you're gone"
Elyse I don't remember that song at all but I'm really enjoying this haha [all laugh]
Sinead You don't remember?! It still plays on the radio, like ,frequently.
Megan Look it up, Elyse, you'll know it
Steph Listen to a radio station in the Collingwood area and it will come on at least three times a day.
Elyse I will drive out immediately.
Sinead Even on alternative radio in Toronto, I've heard it.
Elyse Okay, okay I'll keep my ears open.
Megan I can even remember the music video, which for me is saying something because I didn't like watch a lot of TV.
Sinead I remember for me, I think it was the first time that I'd ever heard a Spice Girls sing on their own. And I was like, Oh, she can actually sing. Because she can and she sounds good on that track.
Megan She sings quite high in that song, too, which is higher than I think you hear in most Spice Girls songs.
[Chimes transition sound]
Sinead Another interesting thing that happened in the fall of 98 was when Victoria was visiting Elton John's villa in the south of France. And Geri called her out of the blue because Geri was also staying in the south of France at George Michael's villa. And so Geri said "Hey Victoria, do you want to come over and like have dinner at George Michael's house" and Victoria was like "alright". And then when they were like about to do it Geri was like "Oh, actually I think we should go out to this like very public restaurant" and so Victoria was like "Okay", and there were like paparazzi waiting for them there and so Victoria wrote about in her book that she felt like Geri had been using her to just like drum up attention with like this like meeting. It was the first time Victoria had talked to Geri or seen her since they had broken up and I guess- I think during this time Victoria , I guess, was the only one who was even friendly towards Geri, because the others- there's nothing about any of the others seeing her around this time.
Elyse That sucks, that's so manipulative, and like-
Sinead Yeah, Victoria felt very used and felt like Geri wasn't- she thought Geri was looking for some kind of reconciliation or something, and it was just like, no, she's using me to get paparazzi attention.
Elyse That's so shitty. Oh, Geri.
Cheryl So with all of these singles coming out, in December of 1998, the band releases what will become their third Christmas number one, "Goodbye". It's the first single without Geri's vocals. The song had actually been written on the Nashville stop of their tour, with producers Matt and Biff who were flown out there. Biff was later quoted as saying, "it was about moving on and saying goodbye to the old Spice Girls. It wasn't a goodbye to Geri. It wasn't really literal. A lot of that song was written when they were touring in America. We wrote it in Nashville. So I think it has that sentimental feel to it because everyone was kind of homesick and knackered."
Sinead But like, in contrast to what Biff said, to fans and critics "Goodbye" was really seen as either a tribute to Geri or a goodbye to her, even though, as he said, parts of the song were written when she was still a member of the band. But like the fan perception was that this song was about saying goodbye to Geri,
Elyse It kind of bums me out because I feel like Geri really did them dirty in this whole thing. And they had every right to be furious with her and they were very strong and were like, you know what, fuck it. We're finishing this tour. And like, I feel like they had- they were so business-minded about it. And they showed so much resilience, and it, like, irks me that we all wrote this narrative around it of all like, "oh, they're like, saying goodbye to their friend who they love" and it's all like amicable and it's just such a misrepresentation of how much she screwed them over.
Cheryl I also think that it erases the fact that the girls need to make a step into becoming adults as performers and they were trying to do it with "Goodbye". And that step just gets totally erased also when you make it a Geri narrative as well.
Elyse That's interesting.
Ashley On the flip side, if they were secretly okay with her being gone, then this is just kind of a really masterful, like, manipulation of people's emotions you know what I mean? Like "Goodbye my friend" like "I'm gonna miss you" like lalala, when meanwhile, they're just like, "fuck yeah, we can fucking do as many dance moves as we want!"
Elyse That is a great point and I would so much rather think that. I like that.
Sinead The other thing that Goodbye is notable for is it's, uh, really intense music video. And I asked Steph to be our special music video correspondent this week.
Steph Well. Boy, do I have a treat for you. I have now watched this video five or six times, which I'm going to tell you is like probably... seven times too many.
Cheryl I love this song. And I know it's seven times too many. Okay.
Steph There's definitely like a theme that was developed for it and there was like, I'm assuming quite the pitch meeting for this. It's like very dark and mystical. There's like a weird old movie patina filter on things, it feels like? It starts with the girls and there's obviously only the four of them. So each one is in their own car driving up to this big castle.
Ashley I also just want to note that they're in like black cars and it's like raining and it's like very ominous.
Steph Yeah, it's so very dark and mystical. There's wolves running around-
Sinead Like through the forest there wolves galloping.
Steph I think the wolves are supposed to be symbols of the girls. At the very least is Emma and Mel C because they're the only ones in white and I only ever could count max three wolves so maybe it's not. They go into this castle that is like frozen and everyone is frozen inside. There's couples, lovers, and there's like weird little like firework explosions that happen that seem just sort of trigger- I don't want to say plot points... But yeah, it's like plot points in the video, I'm gonna say, are triggered by fireworks. Things start floating from the sky, but it's different for every girl. So that's fun. Looks like Emma got toilet paper falling from the sky. Then there's another firework explosion and all of a sudden everyone's magically melted and the girls just leave.
Sinead They broke the curse of the castle.
Steph Yeah, they're so spicy they reheated them.
Megan This doesn't seem to align with the lyrics nor the sentiment of the song at all.
Sinead No! It makes no sense!
Elyse Is it just about not being cold to people?
Steph I mean at the end I guess they leave so that could be like saying goodbye. And they mention a love- like love and stuff in the song and like it's definitely lovers that are like frozen in time.
Sinead It's just like they're... they're so glam, like old Hollywood glam and these cars with the wolves running around when they're like going to this castle so you're like what the fuck are they doing are they like going to some kind of party or something? And then they enter this house with all these frozen couples and you're just like?? And at the end like I guess they broke the curse that was like cursing all the couples in the house.
Ashley Or it's like a rebirth or like resurrection or something? Because if they're viewing this as their entry into like the new era of Spice Girls... I dunno, could be that. But it's so funny that you say that because the very beginning I honestly thought they were going to a funeral or cemetery because I stopped it before they got to the castle. And to me it's like funeral vibes. They look like they're in a funeral procession.
Sinead Like you think you're about to see Geri's casket and then instead they-
Ashley I genuinely did. I genuinely thought they're gonna like allude to that. And then I was like, I'm gonna start watching so I can hear about it later. But I wanna watch the whole thing now.
Steph Yeah, it's wild. It's truly wild. I don't know who thought of it...but they were high or something. That's my special take on Goodbye!
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl After releasing this trainwreck of a video to the world, the girls agree to take a six month break, largely owing to the fact that Mel B and Victoria are pregnant. In February of 1999, Mel B's daughter, Phoenix, was born and Victoria's son Brooklyn was born a few weeks later in early March. Also, during this break, Mel C starts to take her solo career even more seriously, so she temporarily moves to the US to work on a record.
Megan They're starting to release singles on their own, Geri left, they're taking a break to have babies, like did you guys as fans... was this... were you thinking this is the end, like this is it?
Sinead 100%
Steph I think Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera came out also around this time. So it sort of eased the transition.
Sinead Honestly, for me, from when Geri quit is when I started divesting from the Spice Girls. Like, I didn't even think they could really be -I mean, I was very young- but I didn't think they could really be a band anymore because she was gone.
Ashley Same because I don't remember them taking a break. I don't even remember them having kids... I remember Geri leaving. I don't remember this period at all. And if that lines up, Steph, then like I definitely would have been distracted by Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera.
Megan It just goes to show though, that all that work they did to stay in the news cycle, stay in the media, no matter sort of what it was about, was really critical if you forget about them that quickly. You know, they were so big, such a big part of your life, and then they're just gone when you're not hearing about them. So they really did have to do that hustle to stay on top, I guess.
Sinead For sure. So the next time there's really major Spice news, we're flashing forward actually seven months to July of 1999. And this was because Victoria married David Beckham in a huge ceremony with tons of press attention. They were married at Luttrellstown Castle in Ireland. And there was clearly like an aesthetic choice to position them as like kind of the next generation of British royalty. You know, they got married at this castle, Victoria wore a crown during the ceremony of the wedding, and they also sat on these like giant wedding thrones. They sold their wedding photos for a million pounds with OK magazine, like it was one of those exclusive contracts. I'm going to send you guys a couple pictures of their wedding aesthetic because it's wild. So the top picture is ceremony...
Elyse So their baby has a cowboy hat! What is it with cowboy hats and these girls' weddings?
Steph They love a cowboy hat! So strange.
Elyse So weird!
Steph Maybe they made a weird pact. They were like everyone has to have one cowboy hat at their wedding. Like, Victoria and David kind of got off easy because you could just throw it on a baby and no one's gonna be like "ew" at the cowboy hat on a baby.
Elyse Omg and then Emma has like a weird fedora!
Sinead It's like it's like a hybrid cowboy fedora. It has a real angle to it.
Elyse It really does. It's a jaunty cowboy.
Cheryl Also in July of 1999, Geri releases her first studio album Schizophonic, which is the first full album released by a Spice Girl, or in her case former Spice Girl. The album itself reaches number four in the UK charts and sells 600,000 copies, which is considered to be like generally a success, but isn't a landslide.
Elyse Did anyone listen to it?
Sinead No.
Cheryl I listened to a couple of the singles but...
Steph I only remember her cover of It's Raining Men.
Elyse Same.
Cheryl This is also the album that has the video for "Look at Me" where she "buries Ginger Spice" in scare quotes.
Sinead I'm sorry, she named that song "Look at Me"?
Cheryl Yes her first single is named "Look at Me", and in the video for it you actually see Geri as Ginger carried through in a casket.
Elyse Oh, what?! Omg!
Ashley I vaguely remember that.
Sinead That is the video "Goodbye" should have been.
Elyse That's so on the nose.
[Chimes transition sound]
Sinead Emma's first foray into solo work actually came with her first contributing backup vocals to one of Mel B's songs called "Sophisticated Lady", which was released on Mel B's "Word Up" single in June of 1999. Emma's next move was a song on the Pokemon movie's album- like the original Pokemon movie, she sang a song called "Free Up Your Mind". Her first actual single called "What I Am" was in collaboration with this duo called Tintin Out in the UK. That one hit number two on the charts in November of 99, so she was doing well as well.
Cheryl And as we talked about earlier, Mel C was recording her first album. She returns to the UK in August of 1989 to perform at the V99 Music Festival. She's actually got a really primo spot at this festival. A piece of her act is to sing the Sex Pistols classic "Anarchy in the UK", which is a deeply anti-establishment punk song. The V Music Festival is more of an alt rock scene with a lot of up-and-coming bands mixing with established rock groups and on the second day of performances during Mel C's set, her rendition of Anarchy in the UK was met with booing and water bottles and oranges and loaves of bread were thrown at her in the stage.
Elyse Oh, that's so Shakespearean!
Megan Loaves of bread!
Steph Who brings a loaf of bread to a concert?! Are you making like a sandwich in the back?
Ashley Was it like a breakfast concert? They're like loaves of bread and orange juice?
Sinead Can I be invited to a breakfast concert?
Ashley I would love to go to a breakfast concert!
Megan I feel like this would be a new experience for her though, like because I'm sure the Spice Girls had mostly only positive, like screaming happy fans.
Steph True.
Megan To her credit, she finishes the performance and amidst all this chaos and she leaves the stage with her middle finger in the air and says thank you to the audience for throwing all those lovely gifts at her.
Elyse Good for her.
Sinead So afterwards she was asked about the incident and she said, "being part of an indie crowd as a fan, I never imagined I would not be accepted. I love Manic Street Preachers. I love Blur. I'm into all the people that play the festivals. I just saw myself as one of them. So I was quite shocked. I'd been a little naive probably." Which yeah, bitch, you were naive like what the fuck? You've just spent four years making super commercial pop music! Not that she deserves to be treated that way and I hate when people gatekeep because it always applies to women more than men, men are always allowed to do whatever the fuck they want, but women get in trouble for this kind of stuff. But it is silly to like sing a super anti-establishment punk song when you were part of the biggest girl group in the world and like this commercial sensation like you could have picked any other song
Elyse 100%. Totally.
Cheryl You've done like Pepsi commercials, like take a step back, do some Joan Jett, you know, get a little bit of rock cred in a way that people will understand. Baby steps.
Cheryl So in October of 1999 Mel C's first album, Northern Star, was released. It peaked at number four. It was a pop rock type album, and she had recorded it with American record producers, including Rick Rubin, who produces for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Critics reviewed it pretty favourably and it sold pretty well. Sales for the album hit 2.5 million copies, which makes Northern Star the biggest selling Spice solo album to date.
Elyse And this was actually the time that Mel Cbegan to very publicly break from the Spice Girls like party line. She did a interview with Q Magazine, which is a music magazine, and she told the magazine that Posh and Becks' wedding was very over the top. She admitted that she and Mel B had a lot of tension saying, "Some days I don't even bother talking to her." And she also took a swipe at Geri's solo album saying, "She's not a talented musician, and she's not a very strong singer.
Elyse Whoa!
Sinead And in the same interview, she went on to say, "The Spice Girls for me is a hobby. My solo stuff is my proper job."
Elyse Oho, shit!
Steph I wonder if she is reminded of that interview now when she's still doing the Spice Girls...
Sinead Oh, there's.. yeah. So she did walk back her comments about the hobby thing because this like incited this whole thing of "oh the Spice Girls are over", which obviously media had been obsessed with since Geri left. But like there was a line that had been drawn in the sand around this time, which was that Mel C was much more interested in her solo recording than she was in anything the band was doing. And that never changed after that.
Megan I can't remember whose podcast she was on. But she just said like she was just over it. like she was like doing her own thing. She's gonna say what she wants to, do what she wanted to do. And this is like her looking back like years later, so she didn't seem to like be too regretful of it or anything.
Cheryl I understand why she does it because like being in the Spice Girls nearly killed her and it was very clearly like not a happy time for her. But also like she could have just walked out the door she didn't have to announce she was leaving.
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl After this eight month long break, and around the time Mel C starts talking to the press to promote her album and mouthing off about the Spice Girls, everyone has to come together again to start working on their third album, "Forever", in August of 1999. The third album has a big budget but of the original Spice producers only Elliott Kennedy returned for the project. Absolute, otherwise known as Paul Wilson and Andy Watkins, weren't working with the group because Absolute had been working on Geri's first solo album. Ashley Newton at Virgin was very interested in the group moving towards an R&B sound because he believed it would give them a strong foothold in the American market and he started connecting the girls with American producers.
Sinead The group had previously met with Jimmy Jam, who was a big producer duo in the US, during their tour and they really wanted to work with him and Terry Lewis. The duo had previously worked with Usher and Janet Jackson and they had a lot of credibility in the hip hop genre. They ended up writing "If You Wanna Have Some Fun" and "Oxygen" together, which are two of the tracks on the fourth album which I didn't know because I don't know that album very well.
Cheryl The girls also work with Darkchild producing group, best known for their work with Whitney Houston, Jennifer Lopez and Destiny's Child. Darkchild was flown out to London to write "Holler" and "Let Love Lead the Way", and they ended up influencing a huge portion of the Forever album. It's worth noting that during the album recording process, Mel C was busy working on her second album, so in some cases her vocals were added later from LA.
Sinead So in December of 99, the band went on a little mini tour called Christmas in Spice World. They played eight shows around the UK and they debuted a couple of new songs. "Holler" was performed for the first time and that would end up on the Forever album. They also played a song called "Woman", a track the girls wrote with Matt and Biff, but it ended up being cut from the album in the end. One of the Christmas in Spice World concerts was actually broadcast live on the Sky Network. And there's also actually a tragedy. After their December 15 show, which ended this little mini tour, a lighting rigger named Kevin O'Brien was killed while dismantling their tour set at Earls Court Arena in London. He fell about 80 feet from the second level of the venue. The arena was later fined 70,000 pounds after admitting they broke two safety laws.
Megan That's horrible.
Elyse Oh god, that's so tragic.
Steph Insane.
Sinead I know.
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl During the Christmas in Spice World mini tour, the gulf between Mel C and the main three girls grows even wider. She's not interested in doing any promotional work for the group at all. And after rehearsals, she would immediately leave, she didn't hang out with them like they did previously. According to a Spice Girls insider, "She didn't stay, she didn't meet fans, she just didn't seem to be there. In my mind, she'd already left mentally, if not physically by then."
Megan I think that's very true. I also think she was suffering from very severe depression at this point. So not to take any... you know, she was separating herself. She said she was separating herself, but also I don't think someone in that place would want to be interacting with tons of fans and that sort of thing at all. So just some context.
Sinead Honestly, it's amazing that she did that tour if she was in the midst of like a serious bout of depression. That's hard work. And she did well!
Megan No, very true. I think it was in the year 2000. She said that she finally got the diagnosis. And it was- she said it was a relief to her. She's like, "Oh, there's a name for this. There's a reason I feel this way." And she said it was just like a relief. And she's like, "Okay, it has a name like I can do things to not feel this way anymore, because she just thought that was her life now.
Elyse So glad she got that diagnosis.
[Chimes transition sound]
Sinead Although work was underway for their third album most of the year 2000 was actually categorized by the stuff that the girls were doing individually, which obviously didn't help the rampant rumours fueled by Mel C that the Spice Girls were over. In February of 2000, Victoria made a guest appearance on a catwalk for Maria Grachvogel, which made her debut as a model at London's Fashion Week. This was Victoria's first big thing other than her marriage to David and it's a pretty big foreshadowing about her future career as we all know, because she is so involved in fashion to this day. And I think that was like a big step for her like gaining legitimacy in like the fashion space because she definitely had a hard time post Spice Girls being taken seriously in that space.
Cheryl And in March of 2000, the band attends the Brit Awards and received a lifetime achievement award for a career that was just five years old. And everyone in this group is under the age of 30. The remaining four accept the award on stage, and Geri is in the audience. She had been nominated for Best British artist and best pop acts. Geri also performed her song "Bag it Up" at the show.
Elyse That's wild, to get Lifetime Achievement Award at that age.
Sinead It's so ominous, like...
Elyse Yeah, [laughs]
Sinead The Lifetime Achievement Award is like the goodbye award. I also think the Brits, because I know like a little tidbit of gossip that I read about, was that they actually wanted to give the Lifetime Achievement Award to Paul McCartney, but it was contingent on him performing at the Brits that year and he didn't want to so it's almost like they- it's like a carrot, you know, to make like a big act come and perform and keep their award show relevant. So Paul McCartney said no, the Spice Girls said yes.
Megan Did the Spice Girls perform?
Sinead Yeah, they did. What really sticks out for me is that they accepted the award and Geri was sitting in the audience.
Steph How awkward was that? Like? Everyone- wouldn't everyone in the building just be like staring at Geri the entire time?
Megan The camera would be on her for sure.
Sinead 100%
Megan Do you know what amazes me? So, lifetime achievement at five years, but pretty much like only half of that was them, like, really in the height of their fame with Geri and then like she left and for another two years, they just kind of continued on but not in the same way.
Cheryl I also recognize like this was a consolation prize for everyone because they wanted a big name to perform, but also like to even be considered for a lifetime achievement award, you have to have made a huge impact. So I also feel like this is actually like an endorsement of like, oh, yeah, like they accomplished a shit ton.
Elyse Yes. And then I also like Sinead's point about it being ominous because it also sort of seems like a very formal acknowledgement that like you've peaked, like we could give this to you now or we could give it to you in 50 years, we'll be acknowledging the same album.
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl By September of 2000 Mel B's marriage to Jimmy Gulzar is in deep trouble. This culminated with Jimmy going to the press to actually blab about the marital breakdown. He was reportedly paid 100,000 pounds to reveal details of their relationship where he claimed she was controlling, sex-obsessed, and rude to workers and waitstaff. Mel B's camps with quick to hit back that Jimmy had been a gold digger, which had actually been a rumour that had plagued him since the start of the relationship. He was obsessed with their money and status and disinterested in her as a person. These perspectives were shared by many Spice Insiders when Mel B first began dating him. Gulzar had been seeking the huge settlement payouts, he actually wanted half of her 22 million pound fortune, at least. But Mel B's lawyers refused to settle for such a large sum, so he hit out at the press and took a payday that way too.
Megan Like as if the breakdown of a marriage isn't hard enough, you have to like put it all in the papers? You know whether there's a piece of truth in what you're saying or it's totally made up like, I don't know, that just is so low. Like I don't see how you could love someone at some point two years ago, and then do something that horrible.
Sinead Honestly, having read Mel's books, it was pretty flagrant how much he was just interested in her money. He had a copy of all her credit cards from like when they were like one month into dating and like other people around them noticed like immediately he started dressing in all designer clothes, he loved shopping for clothes all the time. There were definitely salacious rumours that like maybe he was gay, because he's done a lot of dancing in like gay clubs, and he had a lot of gay and trans friends, which I don't think like- that's stupid, 90s framing, I think now we can just be like, okay, he was a dancer, and he had a lot of queer friends, that's fine. Another thing that kept coming up in the press too was Mel B saying that he didn't want to have sex with her, which she says in her autobiographies too that she was- didn't understand that he never wanted to have sex with her. And it didn't seem like their relationship was ever that close. And like these- they had these problems from before they even got married. So I think she just really wanted to be married. I mean, she said herself, she really wanted to be married and have a family. And she kind of overlooked the things that she didn't want to see. And that's why it ended so badly.
Megan You think they just got married because she was pregnant, then?
Megan To money, yeah.
Sinead Honestly, I don't know why he agreed to get married other than it makes him a lot more legally entitled to her money.
Sinead Speaking of Mel B, in October of 2000, she released her first solo album, which was called "Hot" and it featured her "Word Up" single, which had been actually used on the Austin Powers soundtrack. The album was really heavily influenced by hip hop and R&B, which had always been Mel B's real musical interest like, since way before the Spice Girls. She worked with producers like Cisco (like Thong Song Cisco), and Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Unfortunately, the album peaked at number 28 on the UK charts, and it only sold around 60,000 copies, which is like pretty bad, like they were expecting a lot better. It also got really mixed to negative reviews from critics. Virgin speculated that fans were more interested in the forthcoming Spice Girls album, which was going to be released about six weeks after Mel B's, and they had encouraged Mel B to delay her album launch but she didn't want to, which, fair enough. Like Mel C's lack of credibility in like the alt rock scene, part of Mel B's problem was that she wasn't taken seriously in hip hop owning to have having been a Spice Girl first. And I think this is really something that haunts all of them, which is that there's just a part of all critics that don't want to take them seriously as musicians.
[Chimes transition sound]
Sinead Because she- I know why she wanted to get married, which was that she wanted to have a family, her parents were divorced, she has a lot of baggage around her dad, she wanted to like have a husband and be in a marriage before the baby came so that it would be you know, "traditional". That was her motivation. And I do believe she loved him because she spoke very highly of him, before the divorce, and then it was all terrible.
Cheryl A year after being recorded, Forever was released as their third and final studio album in November of 2000. Their first single "Holler" hit number one in the UK, but didn't even make the top 100 in the US. Unlike prior Spice album efforts, this time the group actually splits up the promotional work as both Mels are busy supporting their own work simultaneously. The album, as we sort of hinted at, was considered to be a huge flop. It only sold 40 million copies, which for the Spice Girls is terrible. It was pretty heavily dissected by critics. Betty Clarke of the Guardian wrote, "They have reinvented themselves as a bizarre cross between Jennifer Lopez and Celine Dion, in a quest to be taken seriously as the adults they've become. But Forever ultimately makes you yearn for those heady days when the Spice Girls were pop and proud of it. Come back, Baby Ginger, Sporty, Scary and Posh, I miss you."
Megan I think that's true, though. Like maybe who they were as artists when they were younger, and who they're developing into maybe as individual artists just doesn't fit the Spice Girls box, you know, that they were in.
Sinead It's how all of them made their name. They were so ubiquitous and everywhere all the time. It's very difficult to escape that.
Cheryl I also think like this is a really hard transition for any artist to make, going from like being thought of as like an older teenager to like an adult artist. And it's quadrupled when like no one is treating this project as your top priority and there's no one steering the ship.
Sinead So yeah, the girls obviously immediately knew that Forever wasn't doing well. They threw an album release party, which was totally fucked, honestly. They really did not want to be at this party. Mel C was exhausted by her solo touring schedule, didn't want to attend the party at all, but she was forced to by their manager. So when she gets there she lost her temper at a reporter from the Sun and said quote, "I think it's fucking disgusting that bands like A1, Steps and Westlife get to number one, it's all crap. Marketed rubbish. We don't care if they beat us to number one, they probably will. It sums up how shit music is at the moment." Which like... you're fuckin' hypocrite!
Megan From a pop star.
Elyse She's lobbing grenades, eh? Oh, God.
Ashley But it's like deja vu, right? Like, that's literally exactly what Oasis and all of them were saying about the Spice Girls two years prior, however many years prior.
Sinead It's the circle of life. Mel B was also in a foul mood at the party, and upon seeing three well known gossip columnists from the Mirror at the party, she loudly exclaimed, quote, "What the fuck are those sluts doing in here?" And again, people- like, the party can just hear them having these meltdowns.
Elyse Oh, these are women in crisis. My god.
Ashley It's so inappropriate, but it makes me laugh soooo much just picturing this party. Like Spice Girls like R-rated where it's like... where Mel B is just loaded and she's like "who the fuck let these sluts in here?!" and Mel C is like, quote unquote punk rock, and actually swearing at the press... like I would pay to see that, like I just want to see it.
Elyse Me too.
Steph Baby still just in the corner with a lollipop in her mouth.
Ashley Just crying.
Cheryl Apparently, Emma ended up crying, Victoria's trying to like, bridge them together. But both of them were so unhappy with the behaviour of the Mels that they were calling them out during the party.
Elyse Oh God.
Cheryl At one point all four of them were in a loud argument, publicly, at their own launch party. Nancy Phillips, their office manager who like isn't really a manager, is just like trying to run things, and their publicist Alan Edwards had to intervene. According to Edwards: "The night of the album launch was a disaster. It was just appalling. It was a horrible night, badly handled. Mel B and Mel C were a bit out of control that night. In fact, it was more like a Sex Pistols album launch than a Spice Girls reception that night. Mel B was partying, but really partying. While Mel C just didn't want to be there. Her heart wasn't in it. And for once, she couldn't fake it. She didn't care and everyone could see she didn't care. I remember the four of them on the stairs. Emma was practically in tears. Victoria was trying to pull the other two Melanie's into line. It was all over the place. The night of the album launch was when it ended for me."
Megan I just like... if they didn't want to be there, why were they there?
Cheryl Contractual obligations! So that they can have a huge public fight!
Elyse God. What a depressing- I mean, I don't know if that's the end, but oof.
Sinead Well, Elyse, you having said that: by December of 2000, not even a month after Forever was released, the group quietly ceased all promotional activity for the album and began a quote "indefinite hiatus". They did keep insisted for some time in the press that they weren't breaking up, but rather taking time to focus on their solo careers. But this was the end of the band as we knew them. When I read about this party it made me feel really sad actually. Because this was the last time that the four of them were together for a long time. It was the last time they were sort of seen as the Spice Girls. And it was just a fuck show.
Elyse Oh god, that's so depressing.
[Chimes transition sound]
Cheryl In the years since their success, each Spice Girl pursued their own solo music careers and other endeavors. Occasionally they would cross paths at music, charity, and fashion events, and lending a celebrity spark for the good. Rumours of reunion were always in the background and gradually the girls went from icy professional relationships with one another, to something sometimes resembling warmth, into eventually liking one another enough to work together again.
Sinead And yeah, as all of us here know, there have been multiple reunion tours since. There's actually another one rumoured right now. Apparently there's also another upcoming animated Spice Girl movie in the works, and even Victoria signed on to do voice acting for it, which I'm excited about because Victoria's definitely the modern holdout because she is the one who is the coolest now. I mean, they're all doing great. Victoria has a billion Instagram followers, Geri and Mel B have both published a pair of autobiographies each. Mel C has had a really long solo career. And even Emma has like pivoted into the mummy sphere, she has like a mothering book and like she does like speaking gigs around.
Steph She like has her own like, children's supplies company?
Sinead How do you know your childless? Refer to kids shit as children's supplies.
Elyse Sinead, you also neglected to mention Geri's burgeoning children's book line called Eugenia Lavender, featuring the adventures of Eugenia Lavender, all written by Geri Halliwell.
Sinead I read some reviews of those books by Geri and apparently they're good.
Elyse I've heard good things too.
Megan Are these like picture books or like sort of young adult novels sort of things?
Elyse Picture books I would say.
Sinead Obviously, well, maybe not obviously. There will likely never be another Spice mania. But that time period in our culture has had such a huge impact. For so many young girls, like us growing up, being introduced and encouraged towards like that idea of autonomy and of like power in yourself regardless of what other people are doing was a first for pop music. And the way that they managed their brand and marketing in relation to their music has also had a really strong -and maybe dubious- influence on the music industry to this day. So I think it's fair to say that their legacy is very complicated. And I have had so much fun, like researching all this and talking to all of you about it.
Elyse This has been so nice. It's reliving childhood dreams.
Megan I love it. And I just... I really feel like they're just real people. Do you know what I mean? Like hearing where they came from and how they interacted with each other and even how it all fell apart. You can kind of relate like, yeah, I've had a day like that.
Sinead I honestly can't believe that we went from just watching Spice World in a movie chat in a pandemic and then we all created an oral history.
Ashley I know!
Elyse Yay! Wow.
Ashley I'm gonna press play... [clip of Goodbye by the Spice Girls]
[laughs]
Sinead Thank you!
Elyse Thanks guys.
Ashley Spice Invaders is hosted by Sinead O'Brien, Cheryl Stone, Elyse Maxwell, Stephanie Smith and Megan Arppe-Robertson. It's produced, researched, and written by Sinead O'Brien and Cheryl Stone and produced and edited by me, Ashley McDonough. To see any visuals we talked about in this episode, as well as bonus content, be sure to follow us on Instagram @SpiceInvaderspod. Thank you to Lukus Benoit for composing our theme song and mixing this episode.
Transcript created by Ashley McDonough