Thinking the Unthinkable with Ankit Panda

A bi-weekly podcast featuring in-depth analysis and insight on the perils of a new nuclear age, with Ankit Panda.

Navigating Simultaneous Nuclear Challenges 07/23/2025

Navigating Simultaneous Nuclear Challenges Ankit Panda sits down with Vipin Narang for a wide-ranging conversation on the challenges the United States faces in an increasingly complex nuclear landscape. They explore China’s nuclear modernization, what risks Washington may need to accept, and much more. Image: via DVIDS /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691495

Iran’s Future in the Nonproliferation Regime 07/09/2025

Iran’s Future in the Nonproliferation Regime Jamie Kwong joins Ankit to unpack recent developments in the Middle East and their implications for nuclear nonproliferation. They discuss how Israeli and American counter-proliferation strikes could shape Iran’s trajectory within the global nonproliferation regime and much more. Image: via Wikimedia Commons /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691510

Europe’s Deterrence Dilemma 06/25/2025

Europe’s Deterrence Dilemma Ankit sits down with Paul van Hooft to discuss the complex challenges of maintaining nuclear deterrence as traditional U.S. security guarantees come into question. They explore the challenges facing France, the United Kingdom, and NATO allies in developing credible deterrence strategies, the role of conventional weapons, and the risks of nuclear proliferation on the continent. Image: 2nd. Lt. Paige Bodine via /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691520

Who Will Shape the Third Nuclear Era? 06/11/2025

Who Will Shape the Third Nuclear Era? Ankit sits down with Ben Zala to discuss his research team's new book, The Global Third Nuclear Age: Clashing Visions for a New Era in International Politics. They talk about the fundamental drivers of the third new nuclear age, categories of nuclear states, and the increasingly important role of strategic non-nuclear weapons. Image: Department of Defense via . /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691535

At The Precipice of Armageddon 06/02/2025

At The Precipice of Armageddon On this special episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ryan joined Ankit for a live podcast recording and party at WOTR HQ to celebrate the launch of Ankit’s new book: In their wide-ranging conversation, Ryan and Ankit delve into the history of nuclear weapons and their renewed importance in international politics. They also discuss the impact of emerging technologies on nuclear deterrence, the unraveling of arms control treaties, and what comes next, among other topics. Image: /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691550

Defusing the Nuclear Crisis Between India and Pakistan 05/16/2025

Defusing the Nuclear Crisis Between India and Pakistan Ankit sits down with Christopher Clary to unpack the most serious crisis between India and Pakistan in recent decades. How did these two nuclear-armed neighbors go from the brink of war to de-escalation? Image: via Wikimedia Commons. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691565

The Risks of the Latest India-Pakistan Crisis 05/07/2025

The Risks of the Latest India-Pakistan Crisis On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit sits down with Sameer Lalwani to discuss the risks involved in a military conflict between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan. This episode was recorded after the April 22 attack in Kashmir that prompted the current round of tensions and before India launched strikes on Pakistan, and digs into the risks in the event of an attack. Image: via Wikimedia Commons /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691575

How China Navigates the Risk of Nuclear Escalation 04/23/2025

How China Navigates the Risk of Nuclear Escalation Ankit sits down with Fiona Cunningham to discuss her new , Under the Nuclear Shadow: China's Information-Age Weapons in International Security, which makes a compelling argument about Chinese nuclear modernization and U.S.-Chinese nuclear escalation. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691595

The Intersection Between Artificial Intelligence and Nuclear Weapons 04/09/2025

The Intersection Between Artificial Intelligence and Nuclear Weapons Edward Geist joins Ankit on this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable to talk about nuclear weapons and artificial intelligence. In particular, they discuss themes from Edward's recent book: , and its themes, such as the limits of what computers can and can't do, the problems associated with adapting AI systems to deal with military deception, as well as what an AI-enabled and deception dominant world might look like. Edward is a policy researcher at RAND. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691610

Historical Lessons for Modern Missile Defense 03/26/2025

Historical Lessons for Modern Missile Defense On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit continues to explore missile defense capabilities in the context of the Trump administration's interest in building a Golden Dome for America. James Cameron, an associate professor of modern North American history at the University of Oslo, joins the show to discuss arms control efforts between the United States and the Soviet Union, and how it pertains to modern missile defense debates in Washington and elsewhere. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691625

Missile Defense and the U.S. Homeland 03/12/2025

Missile Defense and the U.S. Homeland Robert Soofer joins Ankit Panda to discuss the Trump administration's plan for an Iron Dome for America and the broader role of missile defense and strategic vulnerability in the United States today. Rob is a senior fellow at the Forward Defense program at the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security within the Atlantic Council and a former official in the first Trump administration, where he handled the nuclear and missile defense portfolios in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691635

The Munich Security Conference and the Beginning of the End of Extended Deterrence 02/26/2025

The Munich Security Conference and the Beginning of the End of Extended Deterrence Pranay Vaddi and Vipin Narang join Ankit Panda to discuss what the events of the Munich Security Conference mean for extended deterrence, particularly for European partners and allies, and the historical value of extended deterrence and non-proliferation. Both former government officials, Pranay is currently a senior fellow at MIT's Center for Nuclear Security Policy and Vipin is currently the Frank Stanton Professor of Nuclear Security and Political Science at MIT. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691645

Arms Control in a New World 01/29/2025

Arms Control in a New World On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit is joined by Jane Vaynman, Ph.D., assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and a former senior advisor at the Bureau of Arms Control, Deterrence, and Stability at the Department of State. They discuss how the United States should think about arms control when current geopolitical circumstances are not propitious for making progress on the issue, as well as what new forms of arms control might look like under the Trump administration. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691675

Nuclear Employment Strategy at the End of the Biden Administration 01/15/2025

Nuclear Employment Strategy at the End of the Biden Administration On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit sits down with Pranay Vaddi, special assistant to President Joe Biden and senior director for arms control disarmament and nonproliferation at the National Security Council. They discuss the recent 491 report, which is the unclassified summary of the classified nuclear employment guidance issued by the Biden administration to U.S. nuclear planners. They also discuss the broader nuclear environment at the end of the Biden administration and longer-term considerations for the United States. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691690

The Worrying Nuclear Developments Detailed in the China Military Power Report 01/02/2025

The Worrying Nuclear Developments Detailed in the China Military Power Report On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit is joined by Eric Gomez to discuss the Pentagon's new China Military Power Report and its major implications for nuclear security and American force posture. Eric is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, where his research focuses on the arms control and nuclear stability issues in East Asia, as well as the U.S. military budget and force posture. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691705

How Adversaries Think About Deterrence 12/18/2024

How Adversaries Think About Deterrence On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit is joined by Heather Kearney to discuss how to think about leaders' intentions regarding deterrence, particularly in the context of U.S. adversaries. Heather is a senior Indo-Pacific analyst at United States Strategic Command. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691725

Fred Kaplan on His New Novel 12/04/2024

Fred Kaplan on His New Novel Ankit sits down with Fred Kaplan to discuss his new novel, , which details the intellectual life of people who work in the nuclear security space. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691740

Russia Seeks Nuclear Capabilities in Space 11/20/2024

Russia Seeks Nuclear Capabilities in Space On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit is joined by Laura Grego to discuss what is known, unknown, and what might be driving Russia’s apparent interest in a nuclear explosive capability in orbit. Laura is a senior scientist and research director of the Global Security Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691750

Changing Missile Postures in the Indo-Pacific 11/06/2024

Changing Missile Postures in the Indo-Pacific Ankit sits down with Jennifer Kavanagh, a senior fellow and director of military analysis at Defense Priorities, to discuss changing missile postures in the Indo-Pacific. The two focus on new U.S. non-nuclear missile capabilities and the capabilities of certain U.S. allies in the region. They also discuss how nuclear escalation, particularly in a U.S.-China conflict, might change as a result of the existence of these capabilities. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691765

South Korea’s Nuclear Latency Dilemma 10/23/2024

South Korea’s Nuclear Latency Dilemma Ankit sits down with Lami Kim, a professor at the Daniel K. Inouye Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies and the author of a recent War on the Rocks piece, “.” The two discuss the article and the dilemmas that are shaping South Korea’s active debate over the acquisition of nuclear weapons. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691780

France’s Nuclear Strategy 10/09/2024

France’s Nuclear Strategy Ankit sits down with Heloise Fayet to speak about French thinking on nuclear deterrence. The two discuss the steps France has taken in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, the debates in Europe about the sufficiency of U.S. extended deterrence, the relationship between the United Kingdom and France, and much more. Heloise is a research fellow at the Security Studies Center of Ifri (French institute of international relations), where she coordinates the Deterrence and Proliferation research program. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691795

China Tests an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Into the Pacific 09/26/2024

China Tests an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Into the Pacific On this special, emergency episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit sits down with Scott Lafoy to discuss China’s testing of an intercontinental ballistic missile into the Pacific. Scott is the vice president of nuclear and technology security programs at Exiger Government Solutions and a long-time watcher of the People’s Liberation Army rocket force. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691810

A Changing Climate Means A Changing Nuclear Strategy 09/18/2024

A Changing Climate Means A Changing Nuclear Strategy How will climate change affect the nuclear strategies of the United States and countries worldwide? Ankit sat down with Dr. Jamie Kwong, a fellow in the Nuclear Policy Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and one of the leading thinkers on this topic, to discuss. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691825

India’s Changing Nuclear Posture 09/04/2024

India’s Changing Nuclear Posture Ankit sits down with Matt Korda, the associate director for the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists, to discuss India’s nuclear forces. The two focus on the retirement of the Dhanush ship-launched ballistic missile system, which Matt recently wrote a about. In particular, they discuss the specifics of the system, why ship-launched ballistic missiles present risks, why India built this system in the first place, and what this retirement can tell us about India’s nuclear posture. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691850

Poland’s Nuclear Future 08/21/2024

Poland’s Nuclear Future Ankit sits down with Lukasz Kulesa, the director of proliferation and nuclear policy at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and one of the foremost Polish scholars on nuclear matters. The two discuss Polish perspectives on extended deterrence and Poland’s growing interest in NATO’s nuclear sharing mission, as well as how Poland perceives threats from Russia and thinks about its nuclear future within the NATO alliance. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691875

Deterrence in a Multipolar World 08/07/2024

Deterrence in a Multipolar World On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit sits down with Jon Wolfsthal, chair of the U.S. Department of State International Security Advisory Board study group on deterrence in a multipolar world, to talk about the findings and recommendations of the ISAB’s 2023 report. Ankit and Jon discuss the implications of a growing Chinese nuclear weapons stockpile, the role of the State Department in reinforcing U.S. deterrence and assurance messaging, the role of arms control, and much more. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691885

Deterring North Korea with Suon Choi 07/24/2024

Deterring North Korea with Suon Choi On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit sits down with Suon Choi, an associate research fellow at the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses (KIDA) and an advisor to the Korean Ministry of National Defense, to talk about the assurance dilemmas at the heart of the U.S.-South Korean alliance today. They discuss the Washington Declaration, conventional nuclear integration, extended deterrence issues, how the United States and South Korea think about what does and does not deter Kim Jong Un, and South Korean demands for a commitment that the United States respond to any nuclear use by North Korea with nuclear use in turn, among much else. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691905

Reflecting on Putin and Kim’s Pyongyang Summit 07/10/2024

Reflecting on Putin and Kim’s Pyongyang Summit On this episode of Thinking the Unthinkable, Ankit takes a turn in the guest seat. Ankit is interviewed by Cody, membership editor at War on the Rocks, about the recent summit meeting between Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin in Pyongyang. The two discuss the implications of the mutual defense treaty signed by the two leaders for nuclear nonproliferation, for geopolitics in northeast Asia, for the United States and its allies, and much more. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691910

How Would Russia Deliver Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons? 06/26/2024

How Would Russia Deliver Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons? Ankit sat down with Jeffrey Lewis to discuss the non-strategic nuclear weapons exercises that Russia is carrying out. Jeffrey is the director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. The two discuss what Russia’s exercises can tell us about how Russia would move nuclear warheads into the field ahead of potential nuclear use in the war in Ukraine. This episode follows Ankit’s discussion with Andrey Baklitskiy about the same exercises. If you haven’t listened to that yet, you can do so . /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691920

Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons Use in Russia 06/12/2024

Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons Use in Russia Ankit sits down with Andrey Baklitskiy, a senior researcher at the United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research in Geneva. The two discuss an unusual announcement out of Russia at the start of May 2024 concerning a non-strategic nuclear weapons exercise involving the country’s southern military district. They discuss the exercise and what it could mean, the political implications, whether Russia is evolving its approach to nuclear deterrence through signaling, and the risk of nuclear use in the Russo-Ukrainian war. /episode/index/show/435efcea-e071-4961-96d8-84e3205b7d73/id/37691935

Thinking the Unthinkable with Ankit Panda

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