Doc Walks

Documentary filmmakers, Keith Maitland (Tower, Dear Mr Brody) and Ben Steinbauer (Winnebago Man, Chop & Steele), are giving the world what no one asked for… Doc Walks. Against their better judgment, they decided to turn their weekly walks into a podcast, stepping into conversation with filmmakers and execs about the art and industry of documentary filmmaking. If you’re an up and coming filmmaker, lover of non-fiction, or related to either Ben or Keith, this podcast might be for you.

EP040 - Stories Left Behind w/ Julie Goldman & Chris Clements 02/12/2026

EP040 - Stories Left Behind w/ Julie Goldman & Chris Clements When we find Julie Goldman and Chris Clements of Motto Pictures in a Sundance hotel lobby, they’re doing what they do—sharing hugs and encouragement with the Oscar-nominated team from THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR. They’re the kind of producers who root hard for everybody in the field while juggling 8-10 projects of their own. Julie and Chris know everyone—and they champion longtime friends and newcomers to docmaking alike. When we asked Julie to walk with us last year at SXSW, she was a quick and easy “YES,” but it took til Sundance for us all to be in the same place at the same time. And here we are. Keith knows the Motto Pictures folks from the 2016-2017 awards campaign when they were shepherding both LIFE, ANIMATED and WEINER. Ben’s lucky enough to be in business with Motto on his upcoming DR. DANTE project. So we’ve all spent time together, and this time we’re bringing you along for a winding view into Chris & Julie’s work philosophies and partnership—they’re married business partners who each offer different aspects to the films they produce. We’re away from the hubbub of Main Street and onto the nature trail spotting birds, murals, tunnels, and trees, all while digging into the Motto approach: how they financed their first feature on maxed-out credit cards at Brooklyn College, why they Zoom into shoots they can't attend, and how they handle story development and adaptation, including seeing a doc become a scripted comedy in partnership with Mike Schur and Ted Danson. Hear how Julie went from memorizing international phone prefixes at First Run Features to spotting potential in filmmakers before they see it themselves; and Chris drops a theory on why AI will never replace human storytelling—"it doesn't understand doubt.” Join us as we stumble into a public art garden where we can't resist trying our hand at live-scoring the walk with some sculptural instruments. And we land on a question that these walks keep coming back to: where does documentary go from here? Plus: love for Errol Morris and Barbara Kopple, Owen Suskind's flawless post-screening routine, the beauty of sad bells echoing through a Park City tunnel, and the tuxedo pigeon is back (still a magpie). Discussion Links: | | | | | | | | | | | | Timestamps: 00:00 Sundance lobby: hugging THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR crew goodbye 02:42 Meet Julie Goldman & Chris Clements of Motto Pictures 04:13 Motto origin story and the greatest hits 07:07 The tuxedo pigeon returns (still a magpie, Keith) 08:04 Married and making movies: how they navigate both 09:12 Eight to ten projects at once—parallel action as philosophy 11:17 Creative producing: Zoom-ing into shoots, feeding notes live 15:28 Julie's sales brain meets Chris's creative obsession 17:35 The credit card feature: Brooklyn College's worst financial advice 19:01 Why producing called louder than directing 21:02 Owen Suskind wants a cheeseburger and three movies 22:08 Motto's unofficial motto: dragging filmmakers kicking and screaming 25:02 The light at the end of the tunnel for doc filmmaking 29:15 Documentary is defense—and championships are won reacting 31:19 The pivot moment every good doc goes through 36:08 "AI doesn't understand doubt" 39:03 The sculpture garden jam session 40:27 What Motto looks for: a new way to see the world 46:03 YouTube, platforms, and where distribution is headed 50:12 The Motto farm system: interns to A24 51:14 Advice for first-time feature filmmakers 55:04 Gateway docs: GATES OF HEAVEN and HARLAN COUNTY, USA 57:08 What they can't stop thinking about 59:32 The short: FOR SOME KIND OF REFUGE 01:01:12 Sponsors: Austin Film Society & The Long Time /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/40078535

EP039: The Manhole Covers Of Park City W/ Sam Green 02/05/2026

EP039: The Manhole Covers Of Park City W/ Sam Green We are excited to catch Sam Green—despite freezing our asses off on Main Street—hours after the world premiere of THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD. What starts as a conversation about chasing Guinness World Records quickly becomes something bigger: how curiosity transforms into meaning. Sam walks us through ten years of filming, cancer scares, fatherhood, and the realization that 116-year-olds don't give a fuck about pearls of wisdom—like Keith, they just want snacks and naps. Sam is an inspiration, driven by endless curiosity and the urge to overcome his own inner shy-kid, he shares the impetus to innovate docmaking with ‘live cinema’ and we witness his obsession with manhole covers (yes, really). Sam pulls back the curtains on his years-long cutting process with OLDEST PERSON editor Aaron Wickenden—they cut for 1-month a year for ten years! This walk is full of positivity, creativity, and a lot of laughs. Plus: a stop & chat with Oscar-winning producer, Dan Cogan, why SALESMAN changed everything, and insight into Sam's new alter ego as a Venice futbol fanatic: Samuel Verde. It's the end of an era at Sundance, but Sam reminds us why we fell in love with this art form in the first place. Discussion links: THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD (2026) | THE RAINBOW MAN/JOHN 3:16 (1997) | THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2002) | 32 SOUNDS (2022) | SALESMAN (1969) | SANS SOLEIL (1983) Timestamps: 00:00 Main Street at Sundance—14 Degrees 01:05 Meeting Sam During Covid Austin 02:42 The Oldest Person in the World—The Film That Changed 04:13 When Centenarians Just Want Snacks 07:41 The Manhole Cover Obsession 11:17 From Rainbow Man to Sundance 1997 15:28 The Weather Underground & Paul Thomas Anderson 19:56 Editing Over Ten Years with Aaron 25:32 The Live Documentary Revolution 29:13 Performing Arts Saved My Career 34:24 Advice: Keep It Small, Keep It Fun 41:39 Barbara Kopple on Watching Your Own Films 45:01 Gateway Drug: Salesman & Sans Soleil 48:25 Samuel the Venice Soccer Fan 49:26 The End of an Era at Sundance /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/40002360

EP038 - Shelly Duval's Putter w/ Joe Pickett 01/29/2026

EP037 - Theoretically Promiscuous w/ Courtney Cook 01/22/2026

EP037 - Theoretically Promiscuous w/ Courtney Cook What does impact look like? That’s what we’re asking this week’s guest, Courtney Cook—a veteran impact producer who’s helped hundreds of doc-makers answer that question in her 7-years at POV. A high school teacher-turned-PhD-turned-doc-producer and soon-to-be professor of documentary film at Texas State, Courtney has strong opinions about perspective, ethics, and how having a “bad attitude” is the only way to make it in this field. Courtney happily draws inspiration from Black Feminist Thought, HANDS ON A HARDBODY, and the stop-motion masters, the Brothers Quay—explaining just what it means to be "theoretically promiscuous." Transitioning out of her role at POV and preparing to re-enter academia, we catch Courtney shortly before the Augmented Reality project LAYERS OF PLACE: AUSTIN that she produced with the MIT Open Documentary Lab makes its debut at SXSW this Spring. Courtney breaks down the difference between making art and making a career, why you should know how you want to “haunt” your audience, and what it actually takes to build a life as a documentary storyteller when you're not "kind-of rich.” This wide-ranging walk cuts through the noise and confusion of the current doc landscape and lands at a simple conclusion, that the real silver lining in this industry is us. “We’re the silver lining.” Plus: the gospel of asking better questions, how EYES ON THE PRIZE changed her entire life, why librarians rule, and a peek inside a little free art gallery in the Mueller neighborhood of East Austin. This one's about community, hustle, and learning to “hold on gently.” Discussion Links: (1987-1990) | (1997) | (2026) Timestamps: 00:00 Welcome and Guest Introduction 02:00 Outlook on Texas Filmmaking and Doc Distribution 05:00 Mueller Lake Park and POV Impact Work 07:00 Education, Ethics, and Power in Documentary 10:00 From PhD to POV: Courtney's Path 15:00 Building Careers vs. Building Projects 19:00 Producer Pay and Labor Practices 23:00 The Three-Month Trial Period 26:00 Feisty Conversations and Better Questions 29:00 Grant Applications and Process 33:00 Theoretically Promiscuous 34:00 Silver Linings: We Have Each Other 37:00 MIT Augmented Reality Project 39:00 It's All Who You Know (Two Steps Away) 43:00 Believing in People Until You Learn Otherwise 45:00 Gateway Drug: Eyes on the Prize 48:00 Advice for Emerging Filmmakers 52:00 Little Free Art Gallery Discovery 53:00 DIY Impact and Educational Distribution 55:00 What's Next for Courtney /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39821725

EP036 - Think Like A Filmmaker w/ Alan Berliner 01/15/2026

EP036 - Think Like A Filmmaker w/ Alan Berliner This week, Ben is on a solo mission to a freezing New York City, where legendary filmmaker Alan Berliner guides him through his studio that's equal parts fine art gallery and documentary laboratory. We're talking about a 108 drawer sound sculpture that Alan plays like an instrument, flood-destroyed film reels turned gorgeous works of art, and the kind of collections that make you wonder where archiving ends and genius begins. Alan waxes poetic on the fine art vs. filmmaker debate, breaks down why every film portrait is really about the person behind the camera, and encourages thinking like a filmmaker even when you’re not on set. We get into his philosophy on acting at the speed of thought, editing without treatments, trusting your gut and letting the material tell you what it wants. Then there's his new film, BENITA, a deeply personal work born from decades of friendship and unimaginable loss — Alan's tribute to a woman whose story yearned to be told, even after she was gone. He opens up about what it means to honor someone through film, and why he believes the documentary world is about to shrink fast. This one's about honoring both your mentors — in the case of Ben learning from Alan — and your mentee’s — in the case of Alan coming to know Benita. Buckle up for a beautiful, wild walk through Alan Berliner’s studio and his filmmaking career. DISCUSSION LINKS: | | | | | | TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Ben Solo in NYC 00:49 Meeting Alan Berliner at His Studio 02:42 Audio File: The 108 Drawer Sound Sculpture 07:00 The Object Cabinets: Bells, Keys, and Lock Drawers 11:17 Composing with Drawers: Live Demonstration 14:00 "Slow Dissolve" and Think Like a Filmmaker 19:56 Fine Art vs. Documentary: Does the Distinction Matter? 23:00 Parts and Labor: The 534-Frame Machine Sculpture 30:00 Translucent: Film Reels as Light Sculptures 34:24 The Title Card Lens Installation 40:00 The Martin Luther King Jr. Citizenship Award 45:00 Oklahoma, Graduate School, and Unlikely Origins 50:00 From Grandfather to Father to Self: The Portrait Films 56:00 Never Writing a Treatment: The Intuitive Process 1:03:00 Acting at the Speed of Thought 1:07:00 BENITA: A Collaboration with the Departed 1:16:00 The Documentary Landscape in Crisis 1:22:00 Windows and Mirrors: The Purpose of Portraiture 1:26:00 Advice for Filmmakers: Fascination and Need 1:31:00 Closing and Next Episode Preview /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39733860

EP035 - Dyin’ Is Easy, Comedy Is Hard w/Louis Alvarez & Andy Kolker 01/08/2026

EP035 - Dyin’ Is Easy, Comedy Is Hard w/Louis Alvarez & Andy Kolker Come along as Ben flies solo—no Keith, just the UT campus and two documentary titans who've been making films together longer than most marriages last: the indomitable Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker have a working partnership runnin’ north of fifty years. They made AMERICAN TONGUES (1988) back when folks across the US said they just spoke like everyone else. They made PEOPLE LIKE US (1999) while Americans were spurring their nose at class conversations. And they're still at it—currently chasing down an obscure architect and sharing a film about a storied Texas State Senator. We get into the unglamorous truth of comedic docs (funders hate them), the secret to not killing your creative partner (separate wives, separate boroughs), and why the best stories are in places nobody's looking. They started as VISTA volunteers in New Orleans with no one to tell them where to point the camera. Now they're late-career and busy doing whatever the hell they want. Plus: we decipher a bunch of boats strung together, we bask in neo-classical architecture, all while Louis just wants a dirty chai. DISCUSSION LINKS: (1988) | (1985) | (1999) | (2024) | (2010) TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Keith sits this one out 00:49 Meeting Louis and Andy on the UT campus 02:42 The Rodney Ellis short and pulling political levers 04:13 Fifty years of partnership—step one: separate wives 07:41 Cass Gilbert: The everywhere architect you've never heard of 11:17 VISTA volunteers in 1970s New Orleans 15:28 Filming the intangible—accents, class, motherhood 17:48 Why funders hate funny 19:56 The three Cs killing documentary: celebrity, crime, cults 22:08 Steel canoes and the sculpture guessing game 25:32 Making CONFLUENCE during COVID 29:13 AI horror movies and the death of 90-minute docs 34:24 Advice: Go where nobody else is 37:00 Co-directing—the case for and against 43:00 Turtle pond, dirty chai, wrap it up /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39649245

BONUS RE-RELEASE, EPISODE 002: Look Out for the Ice – Live from Sundance 01/01/2026

BONUS RE-RELEASE, EPISODE 002: Look Out for the Ice – Live from Sundance Consider this your midnight toast to new beginnings—we're popping the cork on our Sundance episode just in time for the calendar reset. As 2024 turns to 2025, we're grateful for the documentary community that keeps showing up, keeps creating, and keeps walking these festival streets in search of collaborators, inspiration, and maybe a free hot cocoa. So grab a glass of whatever you're having, bundle up (it's 31 degrees in spirit), and ring in the New Year with Ben and Keith's man-on-the-street adventure through Park City… We’re walkin’ and talkin’ through the heart of Sundance, crashing the festival without a film and somehow finding exactly what we came for. From chance encounters with Iranian filmmakers debuting their first feature to freestyle raps from parking lot attendants, this episode captures the serendipity of showing up. We debate whether you need to be a "hopeless optimist" or a "pragmatic realist" to survive indie filmmaking (spoiler: legendary producer Sue Kim has strong opinions). Along the way we spot tuxedo pigeons, dodge UPS trucks, and nearly intercept Conan O'Brien. Plus: the house analogy for selling your film that actually makes sense. Timestamps: 00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Sundance Day 00:49 First Impressions: 31 Degrees and Feeling Like Imposters 02:42 Why Sundance Matters (Even Without a Film) 04:13 The House Analogy: Films, Sales Agents, and Finding Your Plot of Land 07:41 Man on the Street: Volunteers, Skiers, and the Latino Flu Panel 11:17 Meeting Frank Mosley: In-Person Connection in a Virtual World 15:28 Iranian Filmmakers Debut: Cutting Through Rocks 17:48 The Adobe House and Free Hot Cocoa 19:56 Chosen Glory: Parking Lot Freestyle and Good Vibes 22:08 Speed and First: Hope for the Future Generation 25:32 Producer Sue Kim: The Case Against Hopeless Optimism 29:13 Hopeful vs. Hopeless: Finding Your Festival Philosophy 34:24 Wrapping Up Day One and Looking Ahead Discussion Links: (2025) | (2025) | (2009) | (2016) /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39581725

BONUS RE-RELEASE EPISODE 006 - Matt Wolf As Himself 12/25/2025

BONUS RE-RELEASE EPISODE 006 - Matt Wolf As Himself Consider this a favorite re-wrapped Christmas gift just for you—Matt Wolf's PEE-WEE AS HIMSELF documentary is streaming now on HBO, reminding us all that the best presents are the ones that make us feel like kids again. This holiday season we're celebrating filmmakers who find magic in obsession and who build their own creative communities one passion project at a time. So pour yourself some eggnog, settle in by the fireplace, and unwrap our conversation with Matt—a filmmaker who turned his love of underground artists into a career that spans from cello-playing disco composers to the most beloved man-child in American comedy… It’s a walk and talk through Matt Wolf's Lower East Side neighborhood as Ben unspools the making of WILD COMBINATION and Matt’s path as a gay teen activist to documentary filmmaker. Matt opens up about why he never puts his own money into projects (and how he's managed to pull that off), the importance of finishing what you start, and finding archives you didn't know existed. We dig into his new soap opera doc filming behind the scenes at THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL, and Matt shares his philosophy on building a body of work that surprises even himself. Plus: the secret to finding your creative community in a Melrose Place-style Manhattan courtyard. Timestamps: 00:00 Walking to Meet Matt Wolf in New York 01:26 Matt's Melrose Place: Building Community in Manhattan 02:33 First Connections: Wild Combination and Arthur Russell 05:11 From Gay Teen Activist to Documentary Filmmaker 08:21 The Documentary That Was Made About Matt (And Why He Hated It) 09:45 Paper Tiger Television and the Experimental Film World 11:46 How Wild Combination Became a Feature (Accidentally) 13:11 Finding Your Niche and Telling Stories That Connect 16:29 The Search for Stories: Archives and Access 20:56 Never Put Your Own Money In: Matt's Golden Rule 23:41 Taking a Break (And Why It Never Really Works) 25:32 The New Project: Behind the Scenes of Soap Operas 28:16 The State of Documentary: Shrinking Budgets and Staying True 31:27 Building a Body of Work That Surprises You 33:19 What Keeps Matt Going: The Love of the Work 35:37 Advice for Filmmakers: Finish What You Start 37:01 Wrapping Up the Walk Discussion Links: (2008) | (2025) | (1995) | (2020) | (1973-present) | (1987-present) /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39531305

EP034 - High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah w/ Sally O’Grady 12/18/2025

EP034 - High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah w/ Sally O’Grady As we close-out of our first year of doc’in & walkin’ it’s time to take stock in what this podcast is all about. We’re excited to welcome self-proclaimed number one fan and Australian-born doc-maker, Sally O'Grady for a year-end, Year in Review episode. This nature-walk snakes through the wilderness behind Sally's North Austin home as Ben intros us to a game of “High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah” (a Steinbauer family dinner game) and a chance to reflect on the ups, downs, weird little moments and the true mitzvahs of our first 33 episodes. We’ll catch up with some favorite Doc Walks bits, dig into what's working, get schooled on our Bechdel Test failures (eight women out of 33 guests—Sally came with receipts), and navigate the eternal tension between preparation and off-the-cuff authenticity. And Sally shares her 10-year journey making THE TROUBLE I SEE, a film about incarcerated fathers and their daughters, premiering at AFS Cinema on January 14th (tix on sale now!) Along the way: a surprise encounter with an 86-year-old Vietnamese general-turned-crossing guard, a sit-down at Sally’s Pond™, and a chance to commune with a magnificent blue heron who refuses to fly. Through the highs, the lows, the birds and the buffaloes, every step we’ve taken together in 2025 has been a mitzvah… happy holidays to you, and thanks for walking this road with us! Discussion Links (2025) | (2010) | (2016) | (2024) | (2025) Timestamps 00:00 Introduction and Sally O'Grady arrives 01:05 Sally as "number one fan" and Doc Walks origin story 02:00 Discovering Copperfield Nature Trail in northeast Austin 03:00 Sally's journey from Sydney to New York to Austin 05:00 Year one reflections and holiday episode setup 06:30 Do Ben-and-Keith-only episodes work? Sally weighs in 08:30 "Gardener Not a Carpenter" and useful documentary wisdom 10:00 Ben's vulnerability about prep vs. free-jazz conversations 11:00 Keith on wanting episodes to feel more like real conversations 13:00 The magnificent blue-painted live oak 14:30 High-Low-Buffalo-Mitzvah game explained 16:00 Sally's HIGH: Diane Quon's sensitive interview and Megan Gilbride's "make fucking cinema" 18:00 The title debate: why "Make Fucking Cinema" got vetoed 20:30 Keith's HIGH: Matt Wolf episode and overcoming fears about solo Ben episodes 23:30 Ben's HIGH: Celebrating Maureen Gosling and Les Blank's legacy 26:00 Sally's LOW: The Bechdel Test reality check (8 women out of 33 guests) 28:30 Ben and Keith respond to diversity critique 31:00 Ben's LOW: The off-camera conflict moment with Keith 34:30 Keith's LOW: Wanting guests to recognize them as fellow filmmakers 38:30 Buffalo: Matt Wolf's vanity and Ben's "tugboat" gaffe 40:00 Keith's Buffalo: Birds and describing the world 42:00 Ben's Buffalo: Embracing new formats amid industry change 43:30 Meeting Sally's neighbor Bowie, the 86-year-old Vietnamese general 46:30 Keith's mitzvah and development deal announcement 47:00 The blue heron finally appears 50:00 Sally's film THE TROUBLE I SEE and 10-year journey 54:00 Working with editor Sandra Guardado 57:30 Sally's next project: MA'AM and scammers targeting women therapists 1:01:00 Closing reflections and 2026 preview /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39446200

EP033 - The Stone Peacock w/ David Modigliani 12/11/2025

EP033 - The Stone Peacock w/ David Modigliani What is it with all the doc-filmmakers turning to podcasting?!? No, not us… we’re talkin’ about David Modigliani—a playwright turned poet turned documentary filmmaker turned podcaster (and Stanley Tucci voice director). This is a fun walk with an old friend at a park rumored to be populated by peacocks! The director of 2008’s CRAWFORD (about a small town invaded by George W. Bush) and 2019’s RUNNING WITH BETO (a quixotic look at Beto O’Rouke’s life on the campaign trail), David is back in Austin for 36-hours to emcee the Home Slice Pizza Carnival and crash his old improv troupe, so naturally we dragged him through rocky trails and past $10 million homes to talk about his winding path from the Michener Center Grad program to doc-making, to his latest creation: PACK ONE BAG, an investigative podcast about his grandparents’ escape from fascist Italy that premiered at Tribeca in 2024. David speaks from personal experience (and with his hands) about why improv is basically documentary directing, how hybridized narrative podcasting allowed him to write dialogue for Stanley Tucci as his great-grandfather—and what it means to metabolize democracy's fragility in this troubled time. Plus: bubbling ponds of coy fish, finding a peacock carved in stone, and David voices his Italian grandparents' (as he does in his podcast) with glee. This episode is sponsored by our friends at The Long Time—a 5-acre event-space and playground for your imagination. It’s also the home field of The Texas Playboys (the sandlot baseball team that both Ben and David play for) and an ideal location for film productions! For more information go to thelongtime.com and follow along on IG . DISCUSSION LINKS: (2008) | (1967) | (2019) | (2024) | (2014) | (2024) | (2025) | (2023) TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Introduction and Setup at Mayfield Park 02:00 Shoutouts: Chris Floyd, Pizza Champion & Austin Sayers' Steve Fromholz Doc 04:00 Finding Our Footing on Rocky Trails 07:00 The Santa Fe Grandparent Babysitting Setup 10:00 From Playwriting to Documentary: The Michener Center Years 13:00 Crawford Origins: Mini DV and Cindy Sheehan 17:00 Improv as Documentary Directing 21:00 The Yes-And of Verite Filmmaking 24:00 Houses Documentary Filmmakers Will Never Live In 26:00 The Grip's Advice: Get Feedback While You Can 30:00 Branded Content as Film School 34:00 Wounded Warrior Project and MSNBC 37:00 Pack One Bag: Fleeing Fascist Italy 42:00 Why Audio? Creative Nonfiction and Invented Archival 46:00 Writing Dialogue for Stanley Tucci 50:00 Playwriting Meets Podcasting 54:00 The HBO Bus Billboard Moment 58:00 Audio's Frictionless Distribution 01:03:00 What's Next: Italian Version and Screen Adaptation 01:05:00 Lightning Round: Don't Look Back, Linklater Dreams, Fatherhood 01:10:00 Metabolizing the Political Moment 01:12:00 David Does His Grandparents' Voices /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39361475

EP032 - Podcasts Are The New Mayonnaise w/ Scott Ballew 12/04/2025

EP032 - Podcasts Are The New Mayonnaise w/ Scott Ballew Keith’s out this week, so Ben is strutting Travis Heights solo with his good pal Scott(y) Ballew. Scott’s a lesson in cutting-against the grain and getting more for it. You might know him from his work as the former Head of Content at Yeti, making 100+ branded docs with one rule: no product placement. Scott's path is pure chaos theory - starting with a UT football national championship ring, spending time as an insurance salesman, working the ol’ LA PA grind to end up changing how brands tell stories (all while writing and recording his own songs), Scott's tried it all. We dig into the decade-long golden era at Yeti where he worked with 20 filmmakers at once (including Ben on the TOOTSIE film), and how he learned directing on the job from his inspirations. Scott breaks down Terry Allen's "follow the muse" philosophy (including how it sent him on his own musical journey), the surreal Telluride premiere of ALL THAT IS SACRED (his Jimmy Buffett/Tom McGuane film that premiered the day Buffett died), and why he'd rather make films with friends than chase a Townes Van Zandt-type of obsession (learning in part by documenting Townes' son, J.T.). Plus: exploring classic Texas cinema with Jeff Nichols, why loving your subjects beats gotcha filmmaking, and the eternal truth that podcasts are the new mayonnaise. This episode is sponsored by our friends at The Long Time—a 5-acre event-space and playground for your imagination. It’s also the home field of The Texas Playboys (the sandlot baseball team that both Ben and Scott play for). For more information go to and follow along on IG @thelongtimetexas Discussion Links: (2009) | (2010) | (2004) | (2004) | (2005) | (2005) | (2012) | (2023) | (2018) | (2016) | (2016) | (2019) Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Travis Heights Walk 02:00 Defining Yourself as a Creative 05:00 UT Football and National Championship 09:00 LA Dreams: Music Manager to PA 13:00 Podcasts Are the New Mayonnaise 15:00 Starting at Yeti 18:00 Why Branded Docs Work 24:00 Learning to Direct in the Edit Room 31:00 The Golden Era and Going Public 35:00 Writing Songs Out of Necessity 40:00 Tom McGuane, Jimmy Buffett, and Key West 47:00 Loving Your Subjects 53:00 Telluride and Jimmy Buffett's Death 57:00 Moving to Tecovas 01:00:00 Working with Jeff Nichols 01:02:00 Lightning Round: NO DIRECTION HOME (at home) 01:06:00 Dynamic Life vs One-Track Obsession 01:12:00 Closing Thoughts /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39242130

BONUS RE-RELEASE, EPISODE 007: A Story That Went Nowhere with Charlie Shackleton 11/28/2025

BONUS RE-RELEASE, EPISODE 007: A Story That Went Nowhere with Charlie Shackleton Consider this your second helping of the holiday—Charlie Shackleton's THE ZODIAC KILLER PROJECT is now playing in theaters, which means audiences can now experience one of the most twisted, brightest docs of the year. This thanksgiving we're grateful for filmmakers who take big swings and for audiences who show up to support adventurous storytelling. So grab another slice of pie, settle in, and revisit our SXSW conversation with Charlie—a filmmaker who turned rejection into art and morphed failure into near-genius… Walk and talk with ZODIAC KILLER PROJECT director Charlie Shackleton as he recounts the challenges (& opportunities) of bringing a film to new life after losing access to the subject. We’ll explore Charlie’s love-hate relationship with true crime and the way his film twists up familiar tropes. Never one to accept creative defeat, Charlie extolls the virtues of having a close collaboration with your entertainment lawyer and takes us back to the inspiration of Nick Broomfield as a basis for overcoming rejection on screen. We share a lot of laughs and together decide to start a cult! Join us… for this episode of Doc Walks. 00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: South by Southwest Day 00:49 Meeting Charlie Shackleton: A Unique Filmmaker 02:42 The Zodiac Killer Project: A Film About Failure 04:13 Overcoming Obstacles: The Making of Zodiac Killer Project 07:41 Archival Films and Legal Battles 11:17 Influences and Inspirations: The Filmmakers Who Shaped Charlie 15:28 Pitching and Funding: The Journey to Create Zodiac Killer Project 17:48 A Twist on True Crime: Charlie's Unique Approach 19:56 Starting a New Cult: A Filmmaker's Perspective 20:23 Intentional Critique in Documentary Filmmaking 22:08 Navigating Personal Involvement in Documentaries 25:32 The Reality of Developing Multiple Projects 29:13 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers 34:24 Concluding Thoughts and Future Episodes /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39186790

HOLIDAY RE-RELEASE EP09 - The Watering Hole, Live from the Austin Film Society 11/27/2025

HOLIDAY RE-RELEASE EP09 - The Watering Hole, Live from the Austin Film Society Thanksgiving is here and we’re thankful for the filmmakers who make our home town of Austin, TX weird and wonderful. So this week, we're serving up a heaping helping of gratitude and indulging in a re-release of one of our favorite community episodes, EP09 - THE WATERING HOLE, LIVE FROM THE AUSTIN FILM SOCIETY. We recorded this one during SXSW at the annual Austin Film Society party. We’re grateful to documentary filmmakers, the festivals that bring us all together, AFS for holding down the fort and for you—yes, you—who keep showing up to listen to a coupla turkeys. Most of all, we're grateful we get to do this together. So pull up a chair, loosen your belt, and feast on this Austin film family reunion. ORIGINAL SYNOPSIS: Drink up the scene like a local as Keith & Ben chat up their fellow Austinites (and a few out of town visitors) at the annual Austin Film Society Parking Lot Party at SXSW. This episode is a veritable smorgasbord of festival conversation including appearances by local filmmakers Cassie Hay, Tracy Frazier & Karen Skloss; festival programmers like Bart Weiss and James Faust; SXSW-premiering CREEDE, USA editor Andrew Saunderson; producer Mike Blizzard; and an AFS-appreciation conversation with CEO Rebecca Campbell. All that and a literal Rolls Royce car crash makes this bonus episode a unique peek into Austin’s film community. 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene 00:59 Meeting Cassie Hay: A Filmmaking Journey 03:38 Tracy Frazier: From Documentaries to Gaming 06:39 Bart Weiss: The Evolution of Video Fest 11:56 Andrew Saunderson: Editing Creed USA 15:54 James Faust: Festival Highlights 16:16 Introduction to South by Southwest 16:53 Interview with James Faust 17:12 The State of Documentary Films 19:54 Challenges in the Film Industry 24:16 Rebecca Campbell on Austin Film Society 29:45 Mike Blizzard on Austin's Film Community 31:37 Karen Skloss on the Austin Film Society Party 34:22 Conclusion and Future Episodes /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39186660

EP031 - Opportunity Calls! w/ Patrick Heaphy 11/20/2025

EP030 - I’m With the People (and the Butterflies) w/ Rena Effendi 11/13/2025

EP030 - I’m With the People (and the Butterflies) w/ Rena Effendi Meet Rena Effendi—National Geographic photographer, and first-time filmmaker whose SEARCHING FOR SATYRUS just won the top doc prize at the Austin Film Festival. This walk is pure magic—seemingly in honor of her butterfly-hunting film, monarch butterflies flit all around us like they know something the rest of us don't. Rena's film traces her hunt for one of the world's rarest butterflies, named after her father—a Soviet-era lepidopterist who collected 90,000 specimens before his untimely death. This unique species flies only once a year, on a mountaintop, above 10,000 feet, and along the militarized border between Azerbaijan and Armenia—two countries at war for decades. Just five people had ever seen the Satyrus Effendi—and that’s when Rena enters the story. She’s got a lot to say about complicated family stories, layers of secrets, and life in the collapsing Soviet Union. Rena unpacks her jump from medium-format still photos to motion picture storytelling, building teams vs. working solo, and why neutrality matters when you're documenting war—even when it's your own country. Plus: a guitarist on a bicycle, honky-tonk dancing at the White Horse, and why documentary photographers make fearless filmmakers. A woman of the people, and of the butterflies, Rena Effendi is the real deal. DISCUSSION LINKS: | | TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Introduction—Budapest or Istanbul? 01:00 Searching for Satyrus and the Austin Film Festival Win 02:00 Monarch Butterflies and the Rare Satyrus Effendi 04:00 First Time in Austin, First Film 05:00 From Office Job to Photographer—The Magnum Moment 08:00 Collapsing Soviet Union and Standing in Food Queues 10:00 Father's Death and Choosing Butterflies Over Geology 13:00 The Craft of Pinning Butterflies Like a Jeweler 14:00 Early Photography—Documenting Mahala's Transformation 16:00 City Symphonies and Capturing Disappearing Identity 18:00 Story Arcs in Still Photography 19:00 The Dying Mother—Last Picture in the Series 21:00 Austin's Transformation and Tech Bro Architecture 24:00 Birth of the Film—Googling Her Father's Name 26:00 The Butterfly Named After Her Father 27:00 Discovering a Half-Sister at Age 14 30:00 Healing Through Art—Looking at Father Through New Lens 32:00 2020 War and Gaining Access to Habitat 33:00 Building the Team—Producers and National Geographic Grant 36:00 Leadership Challenges of Filmmaking vs. Photography 37:00 Mom's Resistance and Opening Up 40:00 Kevin Andrew—Picking and Pedaling Through Austin 43:00 First Impressions of Austin and White Horse 45:00 Growing Up in War-Torn Culture 47:00 Neutrality and Non-Judgment 49:00 Artists vs. Journalists—The Blurry Line 51:00 Speed Round—Past Lives, Stay True to Story, Kill Your Darlings 54:00 Where to Find the Film /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/39017585

EP029 - What Should We Call This Episode? w/ Chelsea Hernandez 11/06/2025

EP029 - What Should We Call This Episode? w/ Chelsea Hernandez We’ve been trying to book this walk with director Chelsea Hernandez for weeks, but she’s just too-busy city-hopping for the PBS music doc-series to hit the trail with us—until now. Chelsea is an Emmy-nominated director, a part of the Brown Girls Doc Mafia, and a great friend! On a return from a recent shoot in Puerto Rico for CITY OF SONGS, Chelsea found that her living room ceiling had collapsed, turning her life upside down… rather than get down about it, she took it as a sign from the universe. Time to move! And time, finally, to get moving with us—thru the Boggy Creek Greenbelt in East Austin—on a winding walk & talk through her career. Starting with her early days (at age 9) hosting her own Martha Stewart-style kids show (99 episodes!)—then assistant editing for Ellen Siro and editing for Mario Troncoso—all the way to making her own feature doc. We get the scoop, with a focus on casting BUILDING THE AMERICAN DREAM, her feature debut about undocumented construction workers that's still painfully relevant today. And she breaks down the approach to co-directing (with Heather Courtney and Princess A. Hairston) for 2023’s BREAKING THE NEWS—a doc that Keith EP’d and Episode 3 guest Diane Quon produced. She makes a compelling case for why three directors may be better than one. Like many, Chelsea is caught-up in today’s anti-PBS culture war, outlining how the Trump administration just killed her ITVS-funded film ("the movie Trump doesn't want you to see"). But she’s happy to make the case for why PBS matters. It's not just art—it's jobs, community, and the lifeblood of democracy. Plus: why spending time in people's kitchens beats journalism, that time she worked for the Beto campaign, and how many baseballs are in Ben’s minivan. Discussion Links: (2019) | (2023) | (2017) | (2013-2016) | (2020) | (2009) | ( (2025) | (2002) | (2016) | (2013) Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement 01:00 Chelsea's Roof Collapse Story 02:00 Walking the St. David's Community Garden 03:30 Child Star Origins - Kids Ideas TV Show 06:00 Transition from Broadcasting to Documentary 08:00 City of Songs and Traveling for PBS 10:00 CPB Funding Cuts and Trump's Impact 13:00 Building the American Dream Origins 16:00 Casting Real People - Finding Your Protagonists 20:00 Workers Defense Project and Building Trust 24:00 The Fat Mouse Encounter 26:00 Journalism vs. Documentary - Learning to Take Sides 30:00 Breaking the News - Three Directors, Three Perspectives 36:00 Co-Directing Challenges and Triumphs 40:00 Gateway Drug Film - To Be and To Have 42:00 Dream Collaborator Ethan Hawke 43:00 Immigration Raids and Current Work 45:00 Future Projects - Asylum Seekers School and Ruben Ramos 47:00 Baseball Count and Episode Title /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/38930060

EP028 - Go To Church: Watch Movies w/ Megan Gilbride 10/30/2025

EP028 - Go To Church: Watch Movies w/ Megan Gilbride Keith wanders LA’s Atwater Village with acclaimed producer Megan Gilbride—a co-conspirator on TOWER, A SONG FOR YOU, and DEAR MR. BRODY. We stroll the neighborhood, two old friends and frequent collaborators, outlining just how Megan's the "producer kind of crazy" and not the "director kind of crazy." Megan’s got theories and she has opinions—and she’s got the experience to back them all up. This wide-ranging talk covers a whole lot, like… the ethics of authenticity, how the budget tells a story, community building in the doc-making space, and the difference between journalism and cinema. Plus: creeping on a stranger's house to smell juniper trees, the Princess Bride theory of medium-specific storytelling, and why Megan won't shoot 70mm “if there's no wide shots in the fucking movie.” The producer of WHERE SOLDIERS COME FROM, LOVERS OF HATE, and FATHOM makes a case for JAWS, THE LIFE AND TIMES OF HARVEY MILK, ALL THAT JAZZ and the NY EXPORT: OPUS JAZZ—or as she puts it: going to church… watching movies… making fucking cinema. Discussion Links: TOWER (2016) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2021) | FATHOM (2021) | LOVERS OF HATE (2010) | WHERE SOLDIERS COME FROM (2011) | THE REASON I JUMP (2020) | THE PLEA (2024) | JAWS (1975) | ALL THAT JAZZ (1979) | THE LIFE AND TIMES OF HARVEY MILK (1984) | THE PRINCESS BRIDE (1987) | NY EXPORT: OPUS JAZZ (2010) | 32 SOUNDS (2022) Timestamps: 00:00 Intro and Atwater Village Setup | 01:00 Origin Story: The 2012 Picnic Table Pitch | 03:00 What Does a Producer Actually Do? | 06:00 Excellence, Financing, and Distribution as Creative Acts | 09:00 Cinema vs Journalism: The Grammar of Documentary | 13:00 The Psychology of Storytelling and Gut Instinct | 16:00 Ethics, Authenticity, and Not Being Provocative | 18:00 The State of Documentary in 2025 | 20:00 PBS as the Invisible Backstop | 23:00 Mid-Career Reality Check and Volume Problems | 26:00 Cauleen Smith's Life-Changing Question | 29:00 The Space Inside the Frame | 32:00 Do You Wanna Make Fucking Cinema? | 36:00 Princess Bride and Medium-Specific Storytelling | 39:00 Community as the Through-Line in All Her Work | 42:00 Battery Dies, We're on Zoom Now | 43:00 Gateway Drug: Jaws, Harvey Milk, All That Jazz | 46:00 What Makes Her Say Yes to a Project | 48:00 Go to Church: Watch Movies | 52:00 Where to Find Megan's Work /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/38830530

EP027 - Living The Dream with Mike Blizzard 10/23/2025

EP026 - Literally Don't Do This, But Don't Do This Literally with Alex Ross Perry 10/16/2025

EP026 - Literally Don't Do This, But Don't Do This Literally with Alex Ross Perry We're wandering through a mystery neighborhood (we don’t know the name) with Alex Ross Perry, who has TWO movies screening in Austin on the same day. Here to promote his 10-year passion project VIDEO HEAVEN—an essay film about video stores screening at Austin Film Society, and his part of the omnibus VHS series at Fantastic Fest, Alex has built up a fair amount of cred since 2014’s LISTEN UP, PHILIP. Of course, "you can't pay for Montessori preschool with cred." Ain’t that the truth. We catch Alex on the heels of last year’s PAVEMENTS, a fictional(?) documentary about the indie rock band Pavement that aims to be both fabricated—and factual. We’ve got questions and he’s got answers, pulling at the seams of a complicated film for which he created a fake Hollywood biopic (Joe Keery as Stephen Malkmus), staged a full off-Broadway musical with audiences who had no idea they were in a movie, and curated a hagiographic four-day Pavement museum all while cutting an archival dive into the 1990s phenoms against a 2022 reunion tour. It’s a lot. We walk where the streets all have names… and end up with Alex's contrarian take on AI, which is both slanted and enchanting: the long and short of it, he's not worried. This industry is built on execs’ calendars filled with endless notes calls with the sole job of justifying everyone's existence. Just like politicians, “studio execs won't let themselves be put out to pasture….and nobody who's rich shows themselves the door.” Discussion links: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Tags Alex Ross Perry, Pavement documentary, Video Heaven, indie filmmaking, music documentary, documentary filmmaking, Stephen Malkmus, experimental documentary, mockumentary, Robert Greene editor, Austin Film Society, Fantastic Fest, video store documentary, indie rock documentary, fair use filmmaking, VHS horror, Listen Up Philip, screenwriting, AI and filmmaking, narrative documentary /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/38600650

EP025 - I'm Not Sure That’s A Sculpture with Hillary Pierce 10/09/2025

EP025 - I'm Not Sure That’s A Sculpture with Hillary Pierce This week we’re roaming from Go-Valley (the production compound) thru Govalle (the neighborhood) with Marfa, TX-based filmmaker Hillary Pierce, a producing force behind Ben Masters’ THE RIVER AND THE WALL, and Maisie Crow’s AT THE READY.. Hillary's path involves assisting the legendary Albert Maysles in New York (yes, he ate her leftovers), looping back to Austin, and then simultaneously working on two wildly different features with Keith, TOWER and A SONG FOR YOU. A meandering stroll through Govalle’s sculpture garden and lizard-lurking trails, Hillary shares why "love your subjects" is ardent filmmaking advice, how producing a wedding preceded additional documentary productions, and why she eventually fled to Marfa during COVID. We dig into the Documentary Producers Alliance - why it matters, what those crediting guidelines actually do, and how unsexy spreadsheets save productions. Hillary breaks down fundraising across political aisles, the death of traditional distribution, and why your next project might not need to be a feature. The industry's burning down? Rumor has it. But Hillary's got ideas for what we build next. Discussion links: | | | | Timestamps: 00:00 Govalle Adventures Begin 02:00 From Maysles to Austin 07:00 The Costa Rica Doc That Never Was 09:00 Producing Two Features at Once 14:00 What the DPA Actually Does 21:00 Escaping to Marfa 24:00 Conservative Conservationists & Border Politics 28:00 Plans Are Made to Be Changed 33:00 Direct Distribution Isn't Plan B Anymore 40:00 Redefining Documentary Success 44:00 What Do We Build Next? Tags: documentary filmmaking, film producer, documentary producer, Tower documentary, The River and the Wall, Albert Maysles, documentary distribution, direct distribution, indie filmmaking, Documentary Producers Alliance, DPA, Austin filmmakers, Marfa Texas, film production, documentary careers, filmmaking advice, Keith Maitland, Ben Steinbauer, documentary industry, independent film /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/38519880

EP024.5 - Matt and Bob Morning Show Meets Doc Walks 10/08/2025

EP024.5 - Matt and Bob Morning Show Meets Doc Walks Ben crashes the Matt and Bob show to talk WINNEBAGO MAN, viral videos before viral was a thing, and tracking down an angry RV salesman living as a hermit in Northern California. The conversation rips through documentary evolution—from Ken Burns photo zooms to Tiger King (quick: who directed it? exactly)—and lands on why docs are the offensive linemen of film: you don't know their names, but you need them. Ben breaks down Doc Walks, his new weekly walk-and-talk series with Austin filmmaker Keith Maitland, where tiny cameras, AI editing, and real conversation collide. They dig into HIGH HOPES (his Hulu dispensary doc with Jimmy Kimmel), the terrifying gamble of documentary filmmaking (what if nothing happens?), and why authenticity matters when everything else is fake. Plus: why Ben's wife is rooting for Chuy's love life. Discussion links: ) | | | | | Timestamps: 00:00 Intro | 01:00 HIGH HOPES | 02:00 WINNEBAGO MAN Origin Story | 06:00 Docs as Offensive Linemen | 07:00 Doc Walks Launch | 10:00 Authenticity vs AI | 11:00 Documentary Risks | 13:00 When Stories Swerve | 14:00 Where to Find Doc Walks YouTube Tags: documentary filmmaking, Ben Steinbauer, Winnebago Man, documentary filmmaker interview, Matt and Bob show, Doc Walks podcast, Keith Maitland, High Hopes Hulu, Jimmy Kimmel, documentary series, Austin filmmakers, Tower documentary, filmmaking podcast, indie filmmaking, documentary production, viral videos, Jack Rebney, reality vs documentary, authentic storytelling, film industry, documentary editing, Sherman's March, Ken Burns, Tiger King, documentary evolution, cinema verite, nonfiction filmmaking, Sundance documentaries, film school, documentary techniques, filmmaker interview, behind the scenes, documentary process, creative process, film production, independent film, documentary storytelling, Texas filmmakers, Austin film scene, entertainment industry, media production, film discussion, movie podcast, documentary history, filmmaking tips, creative collaboration, film theory, documentary craft /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/38516170

EP024 - Golden Moments with Maureen Gosling 10/02/2025

EP023 - I’m Not A Pirate Anymore (But I Used To Be) with Bradley Beesley 09/25/2025

EP022 - Fall Is Falling 09/18/2025

EP021 - LIFE AFTER with Reid Davenport and Colleen Cassingham 09/12/2025

EP020 - A Shared Reality with Richard Whittaker 09/04/2025

EP019 - Doc Talks with Dr. Paul Stekler 08/21/2025

EP019 - Doc Talks with Dr. Paul Stekler We talk a lot about mentorship on this podcast—so it makes sense that we’d bring a pivotal mentor to both of us into the mix. Join us as we find a shady spot on the campus of the University of Texas as DocWalks becomes DocTalks with Dr. Paul Stekler. We’ll get into Paul’s POV from many angles—from his days as a Harvard PhD, to his filmmaking roots in New Orleans, through his role as the chair of the Radio-Television-Film department at UT, Paul has made teaching and community building a priority. But that hasn’t held him back from building an impressive catalog of films… with SETTING THE WOODS ON FIRE, VOTE FOR ME, LAST MAN STANDING, and GETTING BACK TO ABNORMAL (& more) he’s pushed political perspectives beyond wonky intellectualism into a place full of heart and humor. Paul has played a significant role in each of our careers—as he has with dozens of other filmmakers… and this episode celebrates lessons learned (or missed) in grad school, the many mea culpas of George Wallace, Henry Hampton and his EYES ON THE PRIZE, and the importance of community (not to mention: memories of drunken revelry with Richard Leacock). Take a seat as we replace DocWalks with DocTalks with Austin’s doctor of documentaries. 00:00 Exploring the University of Texas Campus 00:56 Meeting Dr. Paul Stekler 01:26 Paul Stekler's Impact on Filmmakers 03:57 The Art of Taking and Giving Feedback 13:01 Paul Stekler's Journey into Filmmaking 14:43 Early Filmmaking Experiences and Challenges 18:41 The Role of a Director in Documentary Filmmaking 24:14 The Art of a Good Shot 24:28 Interview Techniques and Influences 25:27 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers 26:06 The Importance of Passion and Story 27:33 Building a Filmmaking Community 28:44 Transition to Austin and Early Projects 29:42 George Wallace and Political Documentaries 34:27 Collaborative Filmmaking 38:22 Supporting Emerging Filmmakers 42:46 The Power of Documentary Films 46:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections 49:14 Next Episode Preview /episode/index/show/769d52a5-d399-4750-a0ce-f637076f16a6/id/37899060

EP018 - Greg Kwedar Meta On Meta On Meta 08/14/2025

EP017 - Through the Portal with Reed Harkness 08/07/2025

EP016 - Ben & Keith Look Back To Look Ahead 07/31/2025

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