Adoptees On
The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is not the usual adoption talk. You will find real, raw, and deep feelings addressed in these interviews. No sugar-coating here! Come and laugh, cry, learn and heal with us. Adult adoptees share stories of search, reunion, and secondary rejection. Adoptees On also curates recommended resources to encourage and educate the adoption community about adoptee issues.
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Lee Herrick
01/10/2025
Lee Herrick
295 | Lee Herrick We are starting the year off with such a delight, Lee Herrick, the California Poet Laureate, joins us today! Lee recently released his latest poetry collection, In Praise of Late Wonder, which is focused fully on the topic of adoption. Today we talk about what it means to feel significant as an adoptee, why writing prose felt a little more comfortable than a whole memoir, and we word nerd out a little on crosswords and wordplay. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Kathy Mackechney, LCSW
12/13/2024
Kathy Mackechney, LCSW
294 | Kathy Mackechney, LCSW We are doing a hybrid Healing Series episode with adoptee and adoptee therapist, Kathy Mackechney, LCSW. Kathy shares part of her story with us, including how she was prepared for rejection during her reunions, but was instead surprised by eager acceptance. Getting into the therapy of it all, Kathy is an Internal Family Systems practitioner and has developed the idea that not all of our parts get adopted. We unpack what that means, including that somewhere inside us we can access who we may have been, had we not been separated from our original families. Kathy is one of the first, if not the first, adoptee therapist(s) to have an entire chapter published in a clinical text that focuses on how to work with adoptees - it’s literally the chapter we should assign our therapists to read! This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Dr. Julie Lopez
11/29/2024
Dr. Julie Lopez
293 | Dr. Julie Lopez This is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today I’m so pleased to welcome back Dr. Julie Lopez, author of Live Empowered! We are talking all about how labels can be highly problematic for adoptees. We discuss how nonsensical the term “reactive attachment disorder” is when in fact most of us are just having perfectly normal reactions to an abnormal situation. Dr. Julie is an expert in implicit memory continues to inspire us that change and growth is always achievable and how we can access our pre-verbal traumas. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Shelby Redfield Kilgore
11/15/2024
Shelby Redfield Kilgore
292 | Shelby Redfield Kilgore Shelby Redfield Kilgore is a Korean adoptee and filmmaker. You can watch her documentaries and videos on YouTube alongside 800,000 other folks who’ve already had the pleasure. We talk about Shelby’s passion for sharing adoptee stories and how that shifted in tone over the years. We also talk about her health struggles and the impacts those have had on her reunions and motherhood. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Kae Wangare Leonard
09/27/2024
Kae Wangare Leonard
291 | Kae Wangare Leonard Today we welcome Kae Wangare Leonard to the show. Kae is a writer, athlete and artist, born and adopted in Kenya by white Americans. She shares some of her story with us, including what does home mean when you’ve lived in multiple countries. We discuss what it means to be an adoption abolitionist, and we have a little disagreement whether Kae’s art, poetry and prose is therapeutic or not! This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Kristal Parke
09/13/2024
Kristal Parke
290 | Kristal Parke Today’s guest is filmmaker and fellow podcaster, and fellow Canadian, Kristal Parke! Kristal is the subject of the documentary, Because She’s Adopted. Today Kristal shares some of her story with us including her non-paternal realization, her road to sobriety, her visits back to the Opaskwayak Cree Nation in Manitoba, and meeting many of her biological family members, including her biological father. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Bruce Porth Part 2
08/30/2024
Bruce Porth Part 2
289 | Bruce Porth Part 2 Today is part two of a two-part episode that we began last week, with our friend Bruce Porth. Today we talk a little more about reunion and what it looks like when someone is being dishonest with you, and also about using breathwork and psychedelics as healing modalities. Have you ever met one of those people that when they speak you just have to listen to every word? Bruce is one of those people for me. We hope you enjoy getting to know him better with us. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Bruce Porth Part 1
08/23/2024
Bruce Porth Part 1
288 | Bruce Porth Part 1 We are so fortunate to hear from Bruce Porth today; he is one of those people that only speaks when he’s got something thoughtful and insightful to share, and today’s conversation is no exception. Bruce shares about his childhood, some difficult relationship circumstances, his path to uncovering the impact adoption and family separation had on his life, and what reunion has looked like. This is part one of two, and don’t worry, next week we’ll release part two where Bruce shares more about the healing modalities he’s used, including breathwork and psychedelics. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Ande Stanley
08/09/2024
Ande Stanley
287 | Ande Stanley On today’s show we’re welcoming Ande Stanley, creator and host of the podcast, The Adoption Files. Ande is a late discovery adoptee, only finding out accidentally when they were in their thirties. We talk about how that happened, and the reactions of adoptive family members to Ande finally being in on the secret everyone knew but them. We also discuss how Ande found their way to the adoptee community and how some initial bad interactions, instead of deterring them, instead lead the way to Ande becoming a community builder. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Grace Newton, MSW
07/26/2024
Grace Newton, MSW
286 | Grace Newton, MSW Today’s guest is Grace Newton, MSW, a Chinese adoptee, author of the prolific blog, Red Thread Broken, and one of the co-authors of the Adoptee Consciousness Model. We discuss the reasons for the rise and fall of international adoption from China, and how the critical adoption scholarship of Chinese adoptees is on the rise, including Grace’s own contributions. Grace also gets more personal, sharing about her relationship with her Chinese American fiancé and how their love story and family have helped her on her racial reclamation journey. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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[Healing Series] The Seven Insights into Adoptee Attachment with Pam Cordano, MFT
07/12/2024
[Healing Series] The Seven Insights into Adoptee Attachment with Pam Cordano, MFT
285 | [Healing Series] The Seven Insights into Adoptee Attachment with Pam Cordano, MFT Today’s episode is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. We’re joined by Pam Cordano, MFT, talking all about the seven challenges of adoptee attachment, which include profound ongoing chronic misattunement, disconnection from our instincts, and commodification. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Dr. Alice Diver
06/21/2024
Dr. Alice Diver
284 | Dr. Alice Diver Today’s guest is the remarkable Dr. Alice Diver, law professor and outspoken adoptee advocate. Alice has written multiple journal articles and books on the topic of adoptee rights, including her latest, Genetic Stigma in Law and Literature: Orphanhood, Adoption, and the Right to Reunion. Alice shares some of her personal story with us, and then we dive into her work including language in adoption, where you’ll hear such gems as “surplus people” and “substitute families”. We also get to talk about how adoptees are viewed by the law in comparison with adoptive parents. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Cam Lee Small
06/07/2024
Cam Lee Small
283 | Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC We have a returning guest, adoptee therapist Cam Lee Small back with us today. Cam has a brand new book out, The Adoptee’s Journey: From Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, published by a faith-based press. I recently got to meet Cam in real life, and he’s just as warm and genuine as he appears on the Internet. In our conversation today, Cam and I talk about how most churches have majorly missed the mark in serving adoptees, we address how “gotcha day” misses the “lost-ya day” and the grief of adoption. One of my favourite things Cam shares in his book, and we do address it today, is that just being an adopted person take an extraordinary amount of cognitive and emotional bandwidth. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Alison Larkin
05/24/2024
Alison Larkin
282 | Alison Larkin Alison Larkin is here today, and we are so so honoured to have her with us. It’s likely a lot of you already know Alison, but for those who are new to her, she is a stand-up comedian, voice artist, audiobook narrator, actress, producer, screenwriter, and bestselling author of The English American. Today we get to hear her story which includes reunions with both birth parents, seeking out a therapist after meeting Nancy Verrier, and how she finally came to truly fall in love in her fifties only to have her fiancé die suddenly during the pandemic. Alison recounts this in her brand new one-woman show, called Grief…A Comedy which is embarking on a world tour this summer. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Janet Sherlund
05/10/2024
Janet Sherlund
281 | Janet Sherlund Today we’re welcoming Janet Sherlund to the show! Janet is the author of the brand new memoir, Abandoned at Birth: Searching for the Arms that Once Held Me. Janet shares some of her story with us, including her challenging relationship with her adoptive mother, her struggles with anxiety, and the reason she finally felt free to write her memoir. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Svetlana Sandoval
04/26/2024
Svetlana Sandoval
280 | Svetlana Sandoval We’re back, and I’m sick again, and my voice is only going to be like this for the intro because luckily I was healthy when I interviewed this week’s guest, Svetlana Sandoval. Svetlana is an international adoptee, adopted from Russia at about six months old. We talk about what sparked an interest to search for her biological family, how she navigated the language barriers using technology and a friend of a friend. Svetlana also shares about her decision to reclaim her original name. Due to the sensitive nature of her reunion during the war, she will not be commenting directly on the conflict. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Reshma McClintock
04/12/2024
Reshma McClintock
279 | Reshma McClintock Oh it is such a delight to get to share this interview with you. Reshma McClintock, the producer and subject of the film Calcutta is My Mother is back with us today. Reshma is a transracial adoptee from Calcutta, India, and this incredible film documents her return to Calcutta for the first time since her adoption, and she would tell you that it also depicts a portion of her journey “out of the fog”. I received permission to share the audio from her trailer, and I’m going to play that for you here, just before we get into the conversation about her story, some of her experiences in Calcutta, and some tips for transnational adoptees about preparing for a home country visit. We also get to talk about her upcoming documentary screening in Minneapolis, Minnesota on May 4, 2024. I get the honour of hosting the Q&A for that event, so consider this my personal invite to you to come and join us to see the film and hang out with some fellow adoptees! This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Adrian Wills
03/29/2024
Adrian Wills
278 | Adrian Wills Today’s guest is fellow Canadian, award-winning director and filmmaker, Adrian Wills. Adrian has a brand new documentary out called A Quiet Girl where get to follow his journey of a public search for his birth mother, and experience every new discovery along with him. Today we talk with Adrian about how his friends prompted his search and what he’s discovered about the people of Newfoundland through his time there. We also discuss how we often create these mythical personas of our biological parents from a few short sentences in our non-identifying adoption information. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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John Gallaher, Ph.D.
03/15/2024
John Gallaher, Ph.D.
277 | John Gallaher, Ph.D. You’re in for a treat today, we have award-winning poet John Gallaher with us! John’s newest poetry collection, My Life in Brutalist Architecture releases this month and it’s his first collection focused in on his experience as an adopted person. Even though he was a kinship adoptee, he still had to take a DNA test to find the family he was searching for. We talk about DNA, nature versus nurture, his search for the other John Gallahers of the world and what reunion really looks like for him right now. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Sanjay Pulver
02/23/2024
Sanjay Pulver
276 | Sanjay Pulver Today’s guest is Sanjay Pulver, an Indian adoptee who has become an outspoken adoptee advocate in recent years. We talk about the complexities of being adopted from an orphanage in a country that is not currently safe for him to return to as a queer trans man. We discuss the intersections between being transnationally and transracially adopted with being a trans person and Sanjay also shares about his experience with somatic therapy. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Sara Docan-Morgan, Ph.D.
02/09/2024
Sara Docan-Morgan, Ph.D.
275 | Sara Docan-Morgan, Ph.D. Today’s guest is Dr. Sara Docan-Morgan, professor of communication studies and author of the book “In Reunion: Transnational Korean Adoptees and the Communication of Family”. Sara shares some of her personal story, and then we dig into her qualitative research from multiple Korean adoptees who have been in a relationship with their biological family for over a decade. There’s a treasure trove of reunion wisdom in this episode, including a new term that so perfectly encapsulates the weight adoptees carry through the search and reunion experience. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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A Little Scheduling Update
02/02/2024
A Little Scheduling Update
If you'd like to be involved in the new show, you can email adopteesonadoption(at)gmail(dot)com with your skills pitch. Are you an audio producer? Investigative reporter? Narrative podcaster? I'd love to hear what you've got to bring to the table. Follow updates here:
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Julian Washio-Collette
01/26/2024
Julian Washio-Collette
274 | Julian Washio-Collette Today’s guest is Julian Washio-Collette, a writer and monastic spiritual seeker, whose story includes the rarity of being relinquished and adopted twice. Julian shares what he hears when someone says the term “forever family”, how building community was difficult here when seemingly no one else has had the same experience of being a double-adoptee, and we ponder what the spiritual implications of adoption may mean. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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SunAh Laybourn, Ph.D.
01/19/2024
SunAh Laybourn, Ph.D.
273 | SunAh Laybourn, Ph.D. We are so excited to welcome professor and sociologist Dr. SunAh Laybourn today! Sunah’s brand new book is called Out of Place: The Lives of Korean Adoptee Immigrants and it is definitely one you’re going to want to add into your collection. Today we talk about SunAh’s research, the realization that heritage culture camps are prioritizing adoptive parents’ comfort, and the public’s perception of the still dire issue of adoptee citizenship. Haley finally gets to ask the question she’s wondered about for at least five years: is being an adopted person a distinct culture of its own? This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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James Cagney
01/12/2024
James Cagney
272 | James Cagney Today’s guest is award-winning poet, James Cagney. Author of Black Steel Magnolias in the Hour of Chaos Theory and Martian: The Saint of Loneliness, James is known for his absolutely dynamic live poetry readings, and we are honoured with a reading in this very episode! We discuss how James came to find out he was adopted, and as usual we’ve got questions about why parents keep these things a secret. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Healing Series: Ask an Adoptee Therapist with Marta Isabella Sierra, LMHC
12/15/2023
Healing Series: Ask an Adoptee Therapist with Marta Isabella Sierra, LMHC
271 | Healing Series: Ask an Adoptee Therapist with Marta Isabella Sierra, LMHC Today’s episode is our last one before our holiday break. We’ll be back with brand-new weekly episodes on January 12, 2024. We wanted to bring you a Healing Series episode to make sure we all had a little extra support before the holiday rush takes over. This year we started a brand new event called Ask an Adoptee therapist, and it has been an absolutely amazing resource for the community. Today’s episode is a compilation of some of the helpful conversations we’ve had together this fall with Marta Isabella Sierra, LMHC. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Sara Easterly
12/08/2023
Sara Easterly
270 | Sara Easterly Sara Easterly is back with us, she’s the author of Searching for Mom and the founder of Adoptee Voices. Today we’re talking about how Sara became friends with an adoptive mother and a birth mother in order to write a book called Adoption Unfiltered. It’s a hard conversation because when Haley got asked to endorse this book she had to say no, to a friend, who we value and deeply appreciate for her contributions to the adoptee community. So we got together to talk about it. We address the power dynamics when interacting with adoptive parents, we talk about whether or not adoption really is always going to be around, and what adoptive parents need to be doing now that they know they participated in a terrible system. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Dr. Liz DeBetta
12/01/2023
Dr. Liz DeBetta
269 | Dr. Liz DeBetta Today we welcome back Dr. Liz DeBetta, author of Adult Adoptees and Writing to Heal: Migrating Toward Wholeness. Liz shares some reunion updates with us, including some very sad news about her sister. We discuss what lead her to choose to remain childfree. And of course, we talk about how writing, re-writing and examining the stories that have been placed upon us can help reconnect us to ourselves. Today’s episode has mentions of sudden death, abuse and abortion. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Kimberly McKee, Ph.D.
11/24/2023
Kimberly McKee, Ph.D.
268 | Kimberly McKee, Ph.D. We are so excited to host critical adoption studies scholar, Dr. Kimberly McKee. She’s the author of the impactful book Disrupting Kinship, and her brand new release is Adoption Fantasies: The Fetishization of Asian Adoptees from Girlhood to Womanhood. We talk about Kim’s reunion with her family in Korea, where she’s currently living with her young son, and what it’s like parenting through reunification and reculturation. We talk about adoption in pop culture, and how preserving adoptee history and acknowledging the work of those who’ve come before us is vital to community building. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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Jessica Hairston
11/17/2023
Jessica Hairston
267 | Jessica Hairston Today our guest is poet Jessica Hairston, author of Power of Our Wombs. Jessica shares her complex origin story, where both of her biological parents were struggling with addiction when she was born, apprehended and adopted soon after. We talk about “the traveling trauma” that has impacted her family system and the power of the word womb which features prominently in her poetry collection. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical or legal advice. Please seek out professionals in those fields if you need those services. The views expressed by the hosts of Adoptees On or any guests are their own and do not represent the opinions of any organization or other person unless otherwise stated.
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