The Art Law Podcast
The Art Law Podcast hosts discussions about topics at the intersection of art and law with art lawyers Steve Schindler and Katie Wilson-Milne and their distinguished guests.
info_outline
The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act Gets Some Teeth
04/02/2024
The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act Gets Some Teeth
Katie and Steve speak with colleague Eden Burgess about the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), its history, purpose, and requirements to repatriate cultural property and human remains to Native American tribes and Native Hawaiian Organizations, as well as new regulations that are leading major museums to remove or close exhibitions of Native American and Hawaiian objects while taking action to implement NAGPRA in consultation with tribes that have ownership claims. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/30629518
info_outline
The Parthenon Marbles Dispute
03/04/2024
The Parthenon Marbles Dispute
Katie and Steve take a deep dive into the history and current status of the Parthenon Marbles with Alexander Herman, director of the Institute of Art and Law in London and author of the recent book The Parthenon Marbles Dispute: Heritage, Law, Politics. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/30208253
info_outline
Art Law Litigation Updates: Fraud, Fair Use, and Nazi Looting
02/06/2024
Art Law Litigation Updates: Fraud, Fair Use, and Nazi Looting
Katie and Steve discuss three recent litigation updates. They discuss the outcome of the trial in the case brought by Dmitry Rybolovlev against Sotheby’s for aiding in the alleged fraud of Yves Bouvier, the most recent Richard Prince fair use copyright infringement cases brought by two photographers, and the Ninth Circuit decision applying Spanish law to deny return of a Pissarro painting to the family of Lily Cassirer, whose property was looted by the Nazis and is currently located in a Spanish museum. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/29818823
info_outline
2023 AI and Art Wrap Up
01/09/2024
2023 AI and Art Wrap Up
Steve and Katie take a look at the many developments around generative AI and fine art, including debates and litigation on copyrightability and infringement as well as the policy concerns surrounding increased use of generative AI to create artworks. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/29401018
info_outline
New Hurdles to Importing Art in the EU
12/06/2023
New Hurdles to Importing Art in the EU
Katie and Steve talk with renowned art lawyer Pierre Valentin about the EU’s new and striking import regulations on cultural goods, including fine art and cultural property, that prohibit the import of applicable items not created in the EU into the EU if they cannot be shown to have been legally exported from their countries of origin. We discuss the impetus for these regulations, the problem with discerning ownership and export history of cultural property, and the key problems with the new regulation’s successful implementation and enforcement. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/28950273
info_outline
Returning "The Wounded Indian" Statue to Massachusetts
11/07/2023
Returning "The Wounded Indian" Statue to Massachusetts
Steve and Katie talk with their colleague Tom Kline about his client, the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association (MCMA), and its decades-long quest to reclaim the dramatic marble statue The Wounded Indian by Peter Stephenson, modeled after the Roman sculpture The Dying Gaul. MCMA was founded by Paul Revere in 1795 and was gifted the statue in 1893. After vacating its storied headquarters in 1958, MCMA was told the statute had been destroyed. Only in 2023 did it get the statue back. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/28538240
info_outline
What Can Artificial Intelligence Offer Art Authentication?
09/06/2023
What Can Artificial Intelligence Offer Art Authentication?
Steve and Katie speak with Dr. Carina Popovici, CEO and Founder of Art Recognition, an art and technology startup that uses AI systems to evaluation the authenticity of artworks. They discuss the problems with authentication in the traditional art market and the promise and limitations of AI in solving these problems along with some real-world examples. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/27950781
info_outline
Do Market Players React to Court Decisions Impacting Art?
07/05/2023
Do Market Players React to Court Decisions Impacting Art?
Katie and Steve speak with WIPO economists Alexander Cuntz and Matthias Sahli about their recent article, Intermediary liability and trade in follow-on innovation, published in the Journal of Cultural Economics in February 2023. Their research looks at how intermediaries in the art market altered their behavior after the Second Circuit’s decision in Cariou v. Prince, which was seen as greatly expanding permissible fair use in appropriation art. THIS PODCAST WAS RECORDED BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT’S DECISION IN THE WARHOL CASE, WHICH PULLED BACK ON THE TRANSFORMATIVE USE ANALYSIS FOR COPYRIGHT FAIR USE. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/27342504
info_outline
SCOTUS Says Warhol Not So Fast: The Limitations of Transformative Use
06/05/2023
SCOTUS Says Warhol Not So Fast: The Limitations of Transformative Use
Katie and Steve talk to Philippa Loengard, copyright expert and Director of the Kernochan Center for Law, Media and the Arts at Columbia Law School, about the much-anticipated Supreme Court decision in Andy Warhol Foundation v. Goldsmith, which resets and limits the applicability of “transformative” fair use as an exception to copyright infringement. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/27033945
info_outline
Fashion, NFTs, and Artistic Expression
04/04/2023
Fashion, NFTs, and Artistic Expression
Katie and Steve talk to attorney Emily Poler, founder of Poler Legal, about the recent lawsuit between the iconic French fashion house Hermès and an NFT creator, Mason Rothschild, over Rothschild’s “MetaBirkin” NFTs. Hermès claimed that Rothschild infringed Hermès’ trademark in the name “Birkin.” Hermès prevailed on this claim (and others) in a jury trial earlier this year. Katie, Steve, and Emily discuss the contours of this lawsuit and the reach of trademark law to police fashion brands, copyright’s limitations, and trademark law’s applicability to artistic expression, especially in the context of NFTs. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/26436300
info_outline
The Promise of NFTs for Artists and the Art Market
03/01/2023
The Promise of NFTs for Artists and the Art Market
Steve and Katie speak with Amy Whitaker about her new book with Nora Burnett Abrams, The Story of NFTs: Artists, Technology and Democracy. Amy describes her vision for the promise of NFTs for artists and a more equitable art market and discusses the democratic incentives NFTs create in this world. They discuss NFTs in the context of the current moment of uncertainty around the future of cryptocurrency, the blockchain, and the value of NFTs in general and the potential problems and limitations of NFTs within the fine art ecosystem. The Story of NFTs: Artists, Technology, and Democracy: Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/26071659
info_outline
The Art Seizures of the Spanish Civil War
01/17/2023
The Art Seizures of the Spanish Civil War
Katie and Steve talk to Spanish art lawyer and scholar, Patricia Fernández, about the history of thousands of artwork seizures during the Spanish Civil War and the Spanish government’s actions with respect to these artworks since then through today. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/25629120
info_outline
The 60+ Year Journey of a Stolen Pissarro Painting and Who Gets to Keep It
12/13/2022
The 60+ Year Journey of a Stolen Pissarro Painting and Who Gets to Keep It
Steve and Katie speak with appellate litigator David Barrett about the story animating a recent Supreme Court case between the heirs of Lilly Cassirer, who fled Germany in 1939 after surrendering the painting Rue Saint-Honoré Après-midi, Effet de Pluie (Rue Saint-Honoré in the Afternoon, Effect of Rain) by Camille Pissarro to the Nazis, and the Spanish Museum known as the Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection. They discuss the journey of the painting in and out of the United States over a 60-plus-year period before it found its way into the collection of a Spanish museum, the Cassirer family’s efforts to find and reclaim the painting, and the decades-long litigation in California that led to the recent Supreme Court decision overturning a decision of the 9th Circuit applying the Spanish law of adverse possession in favor of the Spanish Museum. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/25308993
info_outline
Some Art Museum-Related Updates
10/25/2022
Some Art Museum-Related Updates
Katie and Steve discuss some recent art museum-related legal(ish) developments, including New York’s new legislation requiring labeling of Nazi-looted art, the AAMD’s long-awaited changes to its deaccessioning policy, and an unusual gift/sale of part of MoMA’s collection. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/24789966
info_outline
Director of the Louvre Arrested and a Dive into French Criminal Law
09/06/2022
Director of the Louvre Arrested and a Dive into French Criminal Law
To open Season 6, Katie and Steve discuss the shocking arrest of Jean-Luc Martinez, director of the Louvre in Paris from 2013 to 2021, related to his involvement in the alleged trafficking of antiquities for the Louvre Abu Dhabi with French criminal lawyer Sarah Arpagaus. They discuss cultural property crimes more broadly and take a detour into the world of French criminal law and its striking difference with the system here in the US. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/24122820
info_outline
Russian Sanctions and the Art Market
07/15/2022
Russian Sanctions and the Art Market
Steve and Katie speak to anti-money laundering and sanctions expert Paula Trommel of Corinth Consulting about Russian sanctions and their impact on the art market in the short and long term. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/23748686
info_outline
Fractional Ownership of Art: Can Regular People Own a Piece of the High End Art Market?
06/09/2022
Fractional Ownership of Art: Can Regular People Own a Piece of the High End Art Market?
Katie and Steve speak with Evan Beard, currently Executive Vice President at Masterworks, about fractional ownership of art and new art securitization trends and initiatives, who the issuers and investors in this space are, and what they can achieve through these alternative investment structures. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/23373167
info_outline
Surprise! NYC Repeals Auction Regulations
05/10/2022
Surprise! NYC Repeals Auction Regulations
Steve and Katie give a brief update on New York City’s recent repeal of its regulations governing auctioneers and auction practices. These regulations provided consumer protections by enforcing a measure of transparency into the auction process, such as requiring auctioneers to publicly disclose when they had a financial stake in an object being sold. Interestingly, major stakeholders appeared surprised by the repeal, which they had not requested and seemed indifferent about. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/23059226
info_outline
Anti-Money Laundering Update: FinCEN's Surprising Conclusion and the Impact of Russian Sanctions on the US Art Market
03/28/2022
Anti-Money Laundering Update: FinCEN's Surprising Conclusion and the Impact of Russian Sanctions on the US Art Market
Susan Mumford and Chris King, co-founders of ArtAML, return to the Podcast and talk with Steve about the recent release by the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network ("FinCEN") of its “Study of the Facilitation of Money Laundering and the Financing of Terrorism through the Trade in Works of Art." To the surprise of Steve and his guests, FinCEN concluded that there is limited evidence of money laundering and little risk of terror financing through the sale of high value art. The discussion focuses on the findings of the study, and its implications, particularly when compared with the existing AML regulations covering the art market in the UK and the EU. (Susan and Chris discussed these requirements with Katie and Steve on the November 1, 2021 episode entitled: “How Anti-Money Laundering Regulations are Hitting the Art Market in the United Kingdom and What Participants Can Do to Comply.”) Recorded just days after Russian troops invaded Ukraine, the conversation turned to the impact that sanctions against Russia and its oligarchs are likely to have on the high-value art market, and what art market participants must do to not run afoul of these sanctions. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/22584773
info_outline
Turkey’s Quest for the Stargazer: Part 2
03/03/2022
Turkey’s Quest for the Stargazer: Part 2
With Katie on a parental leave, Steve speaks with Herrick Feinstein’s Victor Rocco about his firm’s representation of the Republic of Turkey in litigation brought by Turkey to possess a millennia-old Anatolian marble statue (the Stargazer) owned by Michael Steinhardt and sold by him through Christie’s. (We previously had counsel for Christie’s and Steinhardt on the podcast.) After a trial in the Southern District of New York, Turkey lost for the primary reason that they could not provide facts supporting their claim to ownership of the Stargazer, specifically that it was stolen from modern day Turkey after 1906. Turkey has appealed that decision, and Victor and Steve discuss the trial and Turkey’s arguments on appeal. Notes for this episode: Follow the Art Law Podcast Instagram: TikTok:
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/22317554
info_outline
Skepticism and Optimism Around Art NFTs - Revisited
01/10/2022
Skepticism and Optimism Around Art NFTs - Revisited
In a re-release of last June's episode, Katie and Steve speak (again) with digital art and NFT enthusiast Jason Bailey about the sudden rise of NFTs in the art world, what they really are, why they have value, and who is interested in them and why.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/21702521
info_outline
Turkey’s Quest for the Stargazer
12/02/2021
Turkey’s Quest for the Stargazer
Katie and Steve speak with veteran cultural property and art lawyer, Tom Kline, about his representation of Christie’s and Michael Steinhardt in litigation brought by Turkey to possess a millennia-old Anatolian marble statue (the Stargazer) owned by Steinhardt. After a trial in the Southern District of New York, Turkey lost for the primary reason that they could not provide facts supporting their claim to ownership of the Stargazer, specifically that it was stolen from modern day Turkey after 1906.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/21347000
info_outline
How Anti-Money Laundering Regulations are Hitting the Art Market in the United Kingdom and What Participants Can Do to Comply
11/01/2021
How Anti-Money Laundering Regulations are Hitting the Art Market in the United Kingdom and What Participants Can Do to Comply
Steve and Katie talk to Susan Mumford and Chris King, co-founders of ArtAML, about the recent roll out of AML regulations covering art market participants in the United Kingdom, who is implicated, how they can comply, and what this means for art businesses and the culture of secrecy in the art market generally. The United Kingdom is the second largest art market outside the United States, and we expect AML regulations to roll out to the art market in the United States soon.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/20991719
info_outline
Skepticism and Optimism Around Art NFTs
06/02/2021
Skepticism and Optimism Around Art NFTs
Katie and Steve speak (again) with digital art and NFT enthusiast Jason Bailey about the sudden rise of NFTs in the art world, what they really are, why they have value, and who is interested in them and why.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/19312799
info_outline
Fair Use and Andy Warhol: The Line Between Appropriation, Copying, and Inspiration Is Not Clear
05/03/2021
Fair Use and Andy Warhol: The Line Between Appropriation, Copying, and Inspiration Is Not Clear
Katie and Steve finally tackle the evolving area of fair use as a defense to copyright infringement with Luke Nikas, attorney for the Andy Warhol Foundation and Partner at Quinn Emanuel. Luke represents the Foundation in its ongoing litigation with photographer Lynn Goldsmith about Warhol’s use of Goldsmith’s photograph of the artist Prince as an artist study for a series of screen prints. Katie, Steve, and Luke discuss this complicated area of law and how artists navigate (or don’t) around it.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/18947456
info_outline
Moral Rights Around the World: Two Case Studies
03/29/2021
Moral Rights Around the World: Two Case Studies
Steve and Katie speak with legal scholar Mira Sundara Rajan regarding the international landscape for artist moral rights protections. Steve, Katie, and Mira dive into two case studies: the Indian case Amar Nath Sehgal v. Union of India (2005) involving government removal of and damage to famous murals from a government building and the more recent controversy surrounding the removal of the Picasso stone murals on the Y-Block government buildings in Oslo, Norway.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/18504515
info_outline
New and Impending Art World Money Laundering Regulations
03/05/2021
New and Impending Art World Money Laundering Regulations
Steve and Katie speak with British art lawyer and General Counsel of Phillips auction house Martin Wilson about European anti-money laundering regulations applicable to art market participants and their recent implementation in the UK. Steve, Katie, and Martin discuss the practicalities of compliance, the general secrecy of the art market, and Martin’s recently published book, "Art Law and the Business of Art."
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/18196307
info_outline
Goodbye 2020 and some art law updates
01/08/2021
Goodbye 2020 and some art law updates
Steve and Katie end 2020 with a few updates on past podcast episode topics, including 5Pointz and moral rights litigation, the Painted Bride mosaic mural battle, deaccessioning in Baltimore, and pandemic related litigation. We look forward to many more interesting topics in 2021!
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/17465720
info_outline
Current Events of Deaccessioning and Cries of Censorship
10/29/2020
Current Events of Deaccessioning and Cries of Censorship
Steve and Katie discuss deaccessioning controversies at the Brooklyn Museum, Baltimore Museum of Art, and Everson Museum of Art in light of new AAMD guidance and the economic and social climate. They also discuss the postponement of the Philip Guston retrospective at the National Gallery, Tate Modern, Museum of Fine Arts Houston, and Museum of Fine Arts Boston due to its depiction of white nationalism. There have been developments on all these topics, so please see our website for up to date information.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/16590407
info_outline
Revisiting the Salvator Mundi by (probably/possibly?) Leonardo da Vinci with Robert Simon
09/14/2020
Revisiting the Salvator Mundi by (probably/possibly?) Leonardo da Vinci with Robert Simon
Steve and Katie speak with old master art dealer and scholar Robert Simon about his discovery of the painting Salvator Mundi attributed to Leonardo da Vinci and sold by Christie’s in 2017 for almost half a billion dollars. They discuss Simon’s purchase of the painting from an obscure New Orleans auction house, the painting’s painstaking restoration and scholarly review, and what we know and don’t know about its history over the last 500 years.
/episode/index/show/artlaw/id/15894812