Work Forces

Seeking to optimize your organization for the future of work and learning? Join workforce and education strategists Julian Alssid and Kaitlin LeMoine as they speak with the innovators who are shaping the future of workforce and career preparation. Together, they will unpack the big problems these individuals are solving and discuss the strategies and tactics that really work. This bi-weekly show is for practitioners and policymakers looking for practical workforce and learning solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

David Adams: Aligning K-12 Education with Industry Needs 01/20/2026

David Adams: Aligning K-12 Education with Industry Needs David Adams, CEO of The Urban Assembly, discusses why building the bridge between K-12 education and employment must start much earlier than post-secondary education, emphasizing that foundational human skills like self-management and social awareness require years of intentional practice. Drawing on his experience leading a network of 22 career-themed public schools serving over 9,000 students in New York City, Adams explains Urban Assembly's strategic evolution from building schools to developing scalable, relationship-based technology solutions that address systemic pain points in education. The conversation explores how Urban Assembly's tools automate information delivery while preserving human judgment and relationships at the heart of learning, achieving a 92.4% graduation rate across their network. Adams emphasizes the importance of posing real-world community problems to K-12 students to simultaneously foster citizenship and career readiness, offering practical strategies for educational leaders to incorporate social-emotional learning and data-informed career navigation to drive economic mobility. David Adams, CEO of The Urban Assembly, discusses why building the bridge between K-12 education and employment must start much earlier than post-secondary education, emphasizing that foundational human skills like self-management and social awareness require years of intentional practice. Drawing on his experience leading a network of 22 career-themed public schools serving over 9,000 students in New York City, Adams explains Urban Assembly's strategic evolution from building schools to developing scalable, relationship-based technology solutions that address systemic pain points in education. The conversation explores how Urban Assembly's tools automate information delivery while preserving human judgment and relationships at the heart of learning, achieving a 92.4% graduation rate across their network. Adams emphasizes the importance of posing real-world community problems to K-12 students to simultaneously foster citizenship and career readiness, offering practical strategies for educational leaders to incorporate social-emotional learning and data-informed career navigation to drive economic mobility. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces podcast. I’m Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I’m Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry, and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let’s dive in. Julian Alssid: A central theme of this podcast is the need to align our education systems with industry demand. And Kaitlin, you know, we’ve looked at this quite a bit through the lens of higher ed or workforce training, and lately, the conversation seems to keep shifting upstream. Kaitlin LeMoine: It really does. We are hearing more and more that if we wait until post-secondary education to build these bridges, we’re probably starting too late. There’s a growing consensus that we need to be doing this work of connecting education to potential careers much earlier in a learner’s journey. Julian Alssid: Exactly. And when the discussion turns to K-12, it takes on a very specific tenor. It’s not just about early technical training; it’s about foundational human skills—social-emotional learning, resilience, problem-solving—skills that employers tell us are critical for long-term success and take many years of practice to develop. Kaitlin LeMoine: That’s right, Julian. And to really understand how to do that effectively, we need to look to organizations that have been doing this work on the ground for some time, which brings us to today’s guest. We are speaking with David Adams, a leader who sits at the intersection of social-emotional learning and career readiness, creating public schools that actually bridge that gap. Julian Alssid: David is the Chief Executive Officer of the Urban Assembly, a nonprofit organization that creates and supports a network of 22 career-themed public schools in New York City. These schools serve over 9,000 students. The Urban Assembly is dedicated to advancing the social and economic mobility of students by improving public education. Kaitlin LeMoine: A nationally recognized leader in social-emotional learning, David previously served as the Senior Director of Social-Emotional Learning at the Urban Assembly, where he created the Resilient Scholars Program. David serves on the board of directors for EL, EAP, and formerly for the Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning. He also serves on numerous advisory boards, including Teach For America’s Social Emotional Learning Advisory Board. Recognized for his leadership and impact, David has received many honors and awards, including being named one of Crain's 40 Under 40 and receiving a citation from the Mayor of New York City. He is also the author of numerous scientific articles and book chapters on social-emotional learning. In addition to his contributions to education and research, David serves as a civil affairs officer in the Army Reserve and holds an M.Ed. in educational psychology from Fordham University. David, welcome to the Work Forces podcast. We are so thrilled you could join us today. David Adams: I’m so happy to be here today with you, Kaitlin and Julian, to talk about workforce, social-emotional learning, and AI. Julian Alssid: And we are so looking forward to this conversation, David. To kick us off, please tell us a bit about your background in your own words and what led you to your role at Urban Assembly. David Adams: Well, Julian, I’ve been married for about 15 years to my wife, Tamika. I’ve got two kids, Elijah and Isaiah, they’re 12 and 13. And I’m actually from New Jersey but have spent most of my time here in New York City. My focus has been on social-emotional learning because I’ve been really interested in this notion of what underlies academic and life success. And there are a set of skills that we call competencies—things like self-management or perspective-taking, social awareness—like the ability to understand your emotions—that actually end up predicting a lot of what we want young people to be able to thrive with when they graduate our schools here in New York, but also nationwide. So I came in and started working in special education in New York City as their Director of Social Emotional Learning in District 75. Prior to that, I was at Yale University doing some research in England thinking about implementation around emotional intelligence. Then I came to the Urban Assembly in 2017 as their Director of Social Emotional Learning, and I’ve been here ever since, thinking about how we can work with our schools to scale solutions that support student access and thriving across the country. Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. So, I guess as we dig deeper into the Urban Assembly, can you tell us the origin story of the organization and how the organization’s work has evolved over the years? It sounds like you’ve been there for many years, so I’m sure you have a very detailed perspective. David Adams: Well, the Urban Assembly was started in 1997 through our founder, Richard Kahan. And the Urban Assembly was founded in order to think about how intermediaries and public-private partnerships can support academic outcomes in New York City. So what had happened was that there was a prison being built in the Bronx, and some local community partners came together and said, "We don’t want more prisons in our neighborhoods, we want more schools." And so Richard worked with a young Meisha Porter and hired a young David Banks at the time to build a school to support young people’s development. And then, when the comprehensive high schools were being broken down in New York City and small schools were being built in their place, Urban Assembly built 22 of those schools, eight of them being career and technical education schools. Then by like 2017-18, where there was less of a focus on building schools, we started developing—moving from, as I say, "schools to tools." We started developing tools within our schools that could scale to solve challenges in instructional quality, post-secondary readiness and access, and of course, social-emotional learning and development. And those tools—the Resilient Scholars Program, Project Café, the Classroom Automated Feedback Environment, and Counselor GPT—are tools that are designed to support all students coming from the area of social-emotional learning, post-secondary readiness, and instructional quality. Julian Alssid: So you have a pretty rich body of work there, David. Tell us a bit about the successes that the Urban Assembly has experienced as an organization, and particularly as you think about the K-12 alignment to industry needs, and also the success rates in the past taken by Urban Assembly graduates. David Adams: Well, our graduation rate across our schools this year is about 92.4%, which we’re very proud of. We had one of our schools, the Urban Assembly Institute for Math and Science for Young Women, posting a 100% of their graduates last year—so 100% of their students graduated, we're very excited about that. And our students go on to success in the post-secondary context. Our job is not just to graduate our kids, but to think about how to ensure that they have that economic and social mobility that you mentioned. So, we’re actually building a new tool out and it’s called Counselor GPT. And this tool helps our students understand what the labor market is looking like in their local area, helps our students identify what credentials are related to economic and social mobility vis-à-vis getting that credential and being successful, and what the ROI or return on investment is on that credential. We see a lot of students who are pursuing post-secondary paths that don’t necessarily align to economic mobility. And so what we’re doing with Counselor GPT is we’re actually moving students from guessing to guidance. We're helping them think about what credential is necessary to get to the economic or social pathway they want to achieve vis-à-vis two-year degrees, four-year degrees, and certificates. One good example of this is a student—we were just looking at some of the output from this tool—and a student was like, "I didn’t realize how long it would take me to repay my college degree if I chose this major." And so we’re seeing students now really being a little bit more intentional about the decisions that they’re making. And it’s not to say that if you go to a difficult ROI degree, maybe something like art history, that you shouldn’t take it, but you should do it with an informed understanding of what it costs to pursue that degree and what the ROI is when you leave post-secondary institutions like college and beyond. So we're very excited about that tool. We're working with our schools now to pilot that. And the tool has actually been accepted as one of the 10 AI tools that are being piloted in New York City through the Chancellor's AI pilot initiative. Kaitlin LeMoine: Wow. That's awesome. Congratulations. David Adams: Thank you, Kaitlin. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah. So, would love to talk a little bit more about that tool and others. You mentioned this shift, right, from—I liked that concept—of "schools to tools" that can be used across schools and beyond these 22 schools. And I’m wondering, would love to hear a little bit more about some of the other tools that you’ve found great success with over time? And then also, how do you walk that line of what tools can be implemented asynchronously or with tech-based tools, and when do you need that human one-on-one connection? And how do you think about that? David Adams: So all of our tools are relationship-based. So the Counselor GPT tool, while it is a chat-based interface, it also is accompanied by a curriculum that a student could use in their classroom with their counselor or their advisory teacher so that they have the opportunity to not just talk to the bot, but talk to each other about what they’re learning about the post-secondary landscape. So we believe that learning happens through interactions, and we want to make sure that those interactions are with a wide variety of formats—whether that’s online with your chatbot friend, or whether that’s with your counselor thinking about how this conversation has informed what you want to do in a post-secondary context, or whether it’s your real-life friend like Julian or Kaitlin. And we just want to say, "Hey, did you know that X-ray technicians are an 18-month degree, but come out making 75 to 80,000 pretty quickly?" And that’s a conversation that we’re looking to have. Now, to your other question, we’re really excited about our other tool called the Classroom Automated Feedback Environment, or CAFE. And this tool is designed to reduce the cost for teacher feedback. So essentially we have a camera and a microphone, and a teacher videotapes themselves. And within one day, automatically get insights into things like: How many questions did they ask? How often did they ask questions? We have little video-based 10-second clips which show them their redirections, it shows them their summaries, it shows them their previews. And what we’re doing is building judgment and high-quality insights so that teachers can do what real athletes do every day, which is watch themselves play the game, reflect on what went well, and then tune the next play—or the next lesson plan—so that they’re more successful over time. And so we believe that by reducing the cost, we can increase the access, and that’s how we think about scaling from our schools to all schools. Now, the last thing you asked, Kaitlin, is: how do we make decisions? So, we have a strategic priority and it's called "Find Out What Works." And essentially what we do is we look at what we call generalizable problems in our schools. We say, what is a pain point? What's a time problem set? What's a resource problem set? What's an incentive problem set? Or what's a knowledge problem set in our schools that we're seeing that's constraining our school's ability to deliver the highest quality education to our students? Once we identify that problem set, we think about—is this a problem that our schools are facing, or is it a problem that all schools are facing? And we do that through research, conversation, and other ways of pursuing that. And once we identify that it's a problem for more than just our schools, then we start to think about, well, how might we solve this problem? So for Project CAFE, we recognized that getting teachers feedback is a problem set. Teachers need more feedback, more frequently. What's stopping teachers from getting that feedback? Well, it's time, but it's really, at the systems level, a resource—because time is expressed through money, right? You just don't have enough people giving that feedback. Once we realized this wasn't an Urban Assembly problem, we developed a solution against that, which is automating the observation techniques. And then we got that out to market and now it's being used in over nine states by 500 classrooms at the end of this year. Julian Alssid: David, one of the challenges that we hear about in schools is teachers are just so busy trying to get through the day with their core work. And interested to hear from you a bit about the sort of staff and professional development required to implement the tools. Like, what have you known? And also I'd say that a lot of our listeners are organizations that are, you know, EdTech types that are inventing tools that they're bringing out to try to save the world. You've been doing this for years. How do you make it work and work within the context of a teacher who is so burdened and under-resourced in so many ways? David Adams: So I think what makes Urban Assembly special is that we sit adjacent to our schools. We work with our principals, work with our teachers and our educators to really move from "what" problem sets to "how" problem sets. I think we have really deep expertise in how schools work, how schedules work, how high schools deliver on the promise of a high-quality public education. And so when we develop our tools, they’re developed by, with, and through our educators. And very sensitive to what it means to be a first-year teacher in New York City or somewhere else, or even a 15-year teacher. So the tools are—I'd like to think—are intuitive in a space that we are making a decision around how much analysis should be done by people and how much analysis should be done by technology. And my focus is really on leaving judgment to people, but automating information. In the case of Counselor GPT: what labor market trends are available in your area vis-à-vis credentials? Now your decision is how to use that information to make post-secondary decisions. That’s on the teacher, that’s on the student, that’s on the family, right? For CAFE, we’re actually not judging teaching; we are observing teaching and allowing the teacher to judge what they want to from those observations. So we don’t say "this is a good question" or "bad question." We say "this is an open-ended question" or "it's not an open-ended question." We don’t say "this is an effective redirection" or not. We say "this is a redirection," and you can decide how effective that was by watching your videotape and seeing how the students respond. So I think the professional development here is about teaching folks how to derive insights and judgments from the information that we’re providing, which is our goal. Our goal is not to get teachers to act like robots. Our goal is not to get students to always choose the most lucrative career. Our goal is to inform, to create judgment, so that we can improve outcomes for our schools across the country. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and it strikes me too—it’s a two-part model where some of what you’re trying to do for learners, you’re also looking to do for everyone. Like, we’re all humans, right? We’re all trying to figure out what technology can do and what humans can uniquely do. And so to have that experience for both learners and staff and figure out what that teaching and learning looks like across systems, I think is really fascinating and critical, right? Because it feels like teachers are then kind of in that position of being of continuously learning, and then applying that learning to how they're teaching their learners. David Adams: Absolutely. I use the example of student-teacher talk time, right? The goal of CAFE is not to increase teacher talk. The goal of that metric is to have teachers reflect on how they’re giving space to students to have discourse in their classroom to drive their learning. So the goal is not to beat the metric. The goal is to use the metric to inform your decision-making in your classroom. Same thing with Counselor GPT, right? The goal is not to all choose the career that is the highest ROI. The goal really is to reduce the mismatch between what is needed in the industry sector and what students are pursuing vis-à-vis their degree. And how employers indicate what is... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39790810

Mitchell Stevens on Building a Learning Society 01/06/2026

Mitchell Stevens on Building a Learning Society Mitchell Stevens, Professor of Education and Sociology at Stanford University and Co-Director of the Stanford Center on Longevity, discusses the urgent transition from a "schooled society" focused on credentials to a true "learning society" that recognizes and supports learning across the entire lifespan. Stevens explains how the traditional three-stage model of education, work, and retirement is becoming obsolete as Americans move toward 100-year lives amid rapid technological change brought by the Fourth Industrial Revolution. He argues that legacy school structures that are built for durability and stability cannot by themselves prepare people for ongoing adaptation, emphasizing instead that learning happens everywhere: at home, work, and play. The conversation explores how declining fertility rates mean societies must rely on older workers, requiring a fundamental reimagining of human capital investment beyond children and young adults. Stevens calls for new conversations about who is responsible for lifelong employability and offers practical guidance for parents, young people and voters alike. Transcript Kaitlin LeMoine: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort, please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Welcome back. You know, Julian, we spend a lot of time on this show talking about the future of work, but there is a massive variable in that equation that we don't discuss enough, the reality that we are all likely to live much longer lives and need to learn continuously along the way. Julian Alssid: It's so true. Kaitlin, we're moving toward what researchers call the 100 year life. The old three stage model where you learn in your 20s, work for 40 years, and then retire is rapidly becoming obsolete. We can't rely on a one and done dose of education, and need to fundamentally rethink how we access and engage in learning experiences across our lives. Kaitlin LeMoine: Exactly. We need to move from what our guest today calls a school society focused on credentials and early life education to a true learning society where learning is ongoing and achieved through many contexts over one's life. Our guest is leading the initiative to define what that society can look like, mapping out a future where learning work and leisure intersect throughout the entire lifespan. Julian Alssid: Our guest today is Mitchell Stevens, Professor of Education and Sociology at Stanford University. He convenes the Pathways Network and studies history, finance and politics of post secondary education in the United States and worldwide. Mitchell is the author of award winning studies on home education and selective admissions, and his most recent books are Remaking College: the Changing Ecology of Higher Education and Seeing the World: How US Universities Make Knowledge in the Global Era. Kaitlin LeMoine: Mitchell is also co director of the Stanford Center on Longevity, where he convenes the Learning Society initiative. This effort brings together leaders from various sectors to imagine a learning ecosystem that supports all of us across longer and multifaceted life. He's written scholarly articles for variety of academic journals and editorial for the Chronicle of Higher Education, Inside Higher Education, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. We are so thrilled to have you join us today. Mitchell, welcome to the workforces podcast. Mitchell Stevens: Thank you for having me. Julian Alssid: Yes Mitchell, welcome, and we've talked a little bit about your background, but we'd like to have you tell us about your background and what led you to co directing the Center on Longevity. Mitchell Stevens: I would say one of the formative experiences for me, intellectually, as is often the case for academics, was their doctoral work back in the 90s, I studied the home education movement and drove my multi-used car all over the Chicagoland suburbs to talk with men and women who were making, at the time, a very radical decision to remove their children from school and teach them at home. One of the big lessons that home schoolers taught me and now many others, is that the rhythms of conventional schooling that so many of us take for granted are highly demanding and often fairly rigid structures. They are not very flexible for the needs of particular people or even the rhythms of complicated lives. That's really what planted the seeds for what we're currently calling the limitations of a schooled society, one in which not only education and learning, but many social rewards, good jobs, social status, looks of approval from parents and grandparents, is really tied to educational credentials, and especially in the face of very dramatic and rapid changes in the character of work and technological change coming to question whether legacy school structures themselves are the best way to prepare people for ever more complicated futures. Kaitlin LeMoine: So there are many places to jump into based on that explanation. We appreciate, we appreciate you kind of giving a sense of what has led you to this work. I guess one place I'd love to take the conversation to start is we recognize, within the last year, your work on the Learning Society within the Center on Longevity has really taken off. We'd love to hear more about the goals of that initiative and what you've sought to accomplish this year, and where you're where you see it headed. Mitchell Stevens: How we get from home schooling to longevity, I guess, is the second half of that question that I elided the first time around. I came into the Stanford Center on Longevity, just as a professor at Stanford around 2017. Someone encouraged me to go because their assemblies were so good. I was in my mid 50s. I'd been at Stanford for just a couple of years, and I was, frankly, kind of blown away by the intellectual breadth of the conversations of that organization. First of all, we call it the Center on Longevity, not the Center on Aging, right? Aging is a frowny face, right? As in anti-aging and preventing aging and denying aging. Longevity is a strong net positive. It's a gift that the 20th century gave all of us. In fact, Laura Carstensen, the director of the Stanford Center on Longevity, likes to point out that lifespan grew in the 20th century more than it ever had in the entire previous centuries of human history combined. Very large change, say, additional 30 years of life over that decade, and it's happened very quickly. Societies and cultures have not had time to adapt to this gift. What have most societies done? In fact, all societies on earth at present, we parked those additional years in old age. Old age is the most expensive and arguably least fun part of the life course. It's when our bodies are most frail and when our minds are most fragile as well. So the goal of the Center on Longevity, and in fact, a global longevity movement, is to make functional adulthood as long as possible, keep old age short, but extend functional adulthood so that our minds and bodies can enjoy life and contribute to the well being of others for long, as long as we possibly can. And let's say also this is not the Silicon Valley live forever longevity. That's not really the game that the Center on Longevity is playing. We are trying to think about longevity as a civic gift that all of us should be able to enjoy, and in fact, that we need to be able to take advantage of, because also of declining fertility. Around the world, except for Sub Saharan Africa, are experiencing net declines in fertility. So that means that the men and women we're going to need to rely on for economic prosperity and civic health, are going to be older. They're going to be more mature, and so we need to sort of rethink pretty much all of our institutions in order to enable those older men and women to make the best contributions they can to their own lives, to their families, and to their societies. Another tie to the homeschooling movement, however, is that the longevity movement has developed a bunch of terms heuristics to make sense of transitions that we used to think were the sole purview of childhood. One of my colleagues refers to, for example, there's adolescence, but Barbara Waxman calls it middlessence. Middlessence is the transitions that adults make between different life stages. Michael Clinton argues that we don't retire, we should instead rewire, right, so the idea that longer lives require but also allow us to change our lives in fairly fundamental and substantial ways, to have multiple chapters in life that look and feel different from each other. So again, these are the sorts of conceptual tools that once you start to use them, it's really hard to it's hard to move backwards, Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and it's interesting to think about that framing of how to rewire and think differently about these different stages, but without the formal structure of schooling, or without the formal like now I'm going from K 12 to higher ed, right? Like these, these formal moments in one's trajectory. I feel like it's a whole other experience to say, how do we rewire without those formal structures, and what does it look like to structure it for oneself? Mitchell Stevens: That's an excellent point. Kaitlin, I mean, one way to think about the American high school, you know, grades nine through 12, is it's an elaborate machine for enabling the transition from childhood to adulthood. And for relatively more privileged families, the four year college degree is another machine for transitioning from childhood to adulthood. One of the things that's happened with the fact of lengthening lifespans is we've made adolescence one ever longer, right? So demographers talk about a domain called emerging adulthood. There's a lot of cultural ambivalence about what it means to adult as a verb, right? And. I would argue, appropriately, an increasing questioning of, have we scaffolded the transition from childhood to adulthood in the right way? We have high school, then college, and now, sort of an increasing conversation about what the early 20s are like, for example. So while you're correct that, historically, we have created organizational machinery for managing those earlier transitions. It's not necessarily the case that I would want to, you know, mimic that infrastructure for late life, but it's also the case that, as you said, that we don't really have clear rituals for navigating these different transitions. Imagine how, I mean, think of how much psychotherapy is bought and sold. How many support groups and self help books are promulgated because people are looking for mechanisms to make sense of the kinds of transitions that we're talking about Julian Alssid: Well, and so we're really, you know, we talk a lot about, and have for years and built a lot of our work around the notion of continuous learning and lifelong learning and and I'm really interested in speaking of terms, in examining the term you use learning society. And you know, how do you define it? What are the factors that are at play when we think about how we all learn? Mitchell Stevens: Yeah, so the Learning Society project grew out of a year long conversation at the intersection of the fact of lengthening lifespans and the revolutionary changes that AI and related technologies are bringing. There's an extraordinarily large conversation in the United States and globally now about how to prepare people for economic viability and flourishing in the wake of rapid technological change and questions about the extent to which legacy school models are the best way to do that. Very rarely does that conversation get leavened with questions about longevity in the life course. So we talk about the need for adaptability and resilience at work, but we don't talk about the fact that the adaptability and resilience at work that we're going to need from people is going to come from people in their 40s and 60s and 70s. We talk, for example, about how current versions of large language models are good at instrumental tasks but not good at wisdom. We talk almost never about the kinds of men and women in which wisdom is found, right? Wisdom typically resides in older workers, right, whereas flexibility is thought to reside in younger workers. So, you know, putting AI in the future of work discussions alongside the facts of longevity and declining fertility, we think, you know, the men and women, the scores of men and women who have been working with me on this issue, we think that that makes both conversations richer and more substantive. So that dialog is what produced the idea that Julian just mentioned, which was sort of a an overly simplistic, but nevertheless useful heuristic in which we contrast how Americans invested in human beings in the 20th century with how they might invest in human beings in the 21st. In the 20th century, Americans responded to two waves of massive technological change by building schools now during The second industrial revolution, which took place between the Civil War and World War I, Americans created universal mass schooling for children to enable the basic skills of literacy and numeracy that an increasingly industrialized society required in the so called Third Industrial Revolution, the transformations brought about by the semiconductor and the Internet, we massively expanded higher education. We created what the Clinton and Obama administrations called the knowledge economy, and we strongly advocated for post secondary education, aka college for as many people as possible. Those were very substantial investments, and they yielded very strong positive returns, economically, civically. Now we're in the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Schools will not save us this time. It's not the case that we can grow schools or fix schools in ways that will enable the kinds of flexibility and ongoing development that the 21st Century requires, why not? Schools are built for durability and stability. They're built to not change. That's why social scientists talk about chronic reform in education. You notice that we're constantly reforming school? Right? We're constantly fixing something that is presumed to be broken, that's in some ways because of the bureaucratic character of schools themselves. They're set up to be stable, right? And, again, those structures were very good for human capital development in the 20th century. By themselves, they are not going to be adequate vehicles for investing in human capital. Will they be essential civic assets? Yes, right, in some ways, we must organize the first decades of the life course around something like schools, because we oblige adults, we oblige mothers and fathers to go to work all day, right? So we're not going to live without school, right? But nor can we presume that schools, in their current form and by themselves are going to enable the kind of, you know, iterative development that the future needs. So in the past, for example, we, you know, extended what counted as good enough education first from from grade eight to grade 12 to grade 16. Well, do we add another six years to get people ready for the fourth industrial revolution? I don't think so, right? So one of the big goals of the learning society is to just remind people of things that they already know, which is that schools themselves are limiting organizational structures, and we're going to have to think in new ways. Hence, a move from schooling, which happens in bureaucratically organized structures called schools, leading to things called degrees, to something called learning, which happens everywhere, at home, at work, at school, at play, at worship, and that we need to think about ways in which we can fund, scaffold, incentivize, and reward learning wherever and whenever in the life course it transpires. Kaitlin LeMoine: And as you say that Mitchell, it also makes me think about building these skills fairly early on for learners to recognize when that learning is happening and be able to talk about it, call it out, reflect upon it, have it connect or build across either like you're saying formal learning environments or informal environment that we wouldn't call learning or school, but where that same, you know, a certain type of skill or body of knowledge is being explored and developed. It's and you know, it don't require like, it requires that explicit instruction to say, like, how do we build that awareness? How do we build for learners, the ability to say, okay, learning isn't only happening in this one structure called school, but everywhere. Mitchell Stevens: Well, one of the, I find, intellectually satisfying and refreshing parts of this dialog is that Americans have been in conversation about what the essential purposes and content of education should be for a very long time. So say, for example, that we presume that some degree of numeracy and literacy are essential components for economic well being and civic participation. Well, how much literacy and how much numeracy. Right question one. Two are literacy and numeracy enough? Answer, no, but then, but then? What else, right? So these are questions that the architects of early education thought a great deal about these are questions that have been wrestled with by Jean Jacques, Rousseau, John Dewey, Maria Montessori, John Holt, Ivan Illich, right. Is schooling for skills? Yes, is schooling for inculcating a certain kind of character or disposition toward knowledge? Yes. ]How much of one versus the other? We're never quite sure, right? And so what I like about that is that it reminds us that these questions about, you know, what it means to be an adequately educated human being is sort of constantly in flux, right? So that we should embrace this question for our time, you know, rather than see it as a sort of new obligation that has come to us by virtue of artificial intelligence, right? We've been here before, and we're going to be an ongoing dialog about it, even as the Fourth Industrial Revolution unfolds. What is also very satisfying I find about this conversation in the United States is that education and learning is a widely shared cultural value in American life. I always challenge my students. Can you think of any problem in contemporary American life that people do not think schooling or education can help mitigate or improve? And that is true across a broad political spectrum. Americans may disagree on who's responsible for providing education. Whether, for example, the relative role of quote, government, unquote, versus, say, families or communities. But you'll be hard pressed to find a political or cultural constituency in the United States that does not think that more education and learning is generally a good thing. So we have a lot of faith in education and learning, and we actually have a lot of faith in schools, as long as those who are participating in them have some, you know, sense of involvement and participation. So one of the things we're trying to do with Learning Society is sort of take that positive, positive feeling that Americans have toward education and learning and directing it towards sort... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39620560

Work Forces Rewind: Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Bridging the Skills-First Gap 12/30/2025

Work Forces Rewind: Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Bridging the Skills-First Gap Isaac Agbeshie-Noye, Program Director for Widening Pathways to Work at the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) Foundation, addresses the critical gap between employers' intent to adopt skills-first hiring practices and actual implementation. Drawing from his background in higher education and workforce development, Agbeshie-Noye discusses the newly launched Center for a Skills First Future, designed specifically to support small and medium-sized businesses that employ half of all Americans but often lack the resources of large corporations to navigate hiring transformation. He explores the striking disconnect where 90% of employers acknowledge the benefits of skills-first hiring, yet only 15% have actively implemented it, and explains how the Center's many resources—including a Skills Action Planner, resource library, skills-first credential, and vendor database—helps employers determine an achievable place to start rather than boiling the ocean. The conversation addresses frustrations from both job seekers navigating an AI-enhanced application landscape, and employers struggling to distinguish genuine skills from enhanced resumes, while emphasizing that skills-first approaches complement rather than replace traditional degrees by treating skills as the primary currency for understanding what all credentials represent. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Kaitlin: Hello all, hope you are having a wonderful time as we wind down 2025. We are back with another Work Forces "Rewind" episode before we launch our new season. Today, we’re revisiting our conversation with Isaac Agbeshie-Noye, Program Director for Widening Pathways to Work at the Society for Human Resource Management (or SHRM) Foundation. In this discussion, we unpacked the critical gap between the intent to hire for skills and actually implementing the practice of doing so. Among many takeaways, Isaac shared insights on how employers can move toward a true skills-first approach to hiring. We hope you enjoy this conversation. As always, Julian and I want to express our deep appreciation for you, our listeners. We are so grateful for your continued feedback and engagement with the Work Forces podcast. Your support drives the conversations we have and the work we do. Enjoy this Rewind episode, and stay tuned—we’ll be back with brand new episodes to kick off the next season very soon. In the meantime, we wish you a very happy new year! Kaitlin LeMoine: So our conversations on the podcast and in our consulting practice recently, increasingly revolve around the movement to a skills first approach to educating, hiring and developing talent. Julian Alssid: Absolutely Kaitlin and and today we're turning our attention to the employer side of of that equation. And this is a critical conversation for all employers, but it's particularly critical for small and medium sized companies, where half of all Americans work. These smaller companies often lack the dedicated resources of large corporations to measure and track skills development, and it makes it challenging for them to adapt to new hiring models. Kaitlin LeMoine: That's right. And while skills are all the buzz, there can be a real gap between intent and action. According to the Society for Human Resource Management, or SHRM Foundation, 90% of employers acknowledge the benefits of skills-first hiring, but only 15% have actively implemented it. That's a striking gap, and many HR leaders and executives recognize its strategic value, but struggle to implement significant changes. Julian Alssid: Our guest today is uniquely positioned to address this challenge with a particular focus on helping small and medium sized employers unlock a wider range of qualified candidates by valuing a candidate's abilities and understanding how skills relate to traditional credentials. Kaitlin LeMoine: Isaac Agbeshie-Noye is Program Director for Widening Pathways to Work at the SHRM Foundation. Over the last decade, he's served in a variety of leadership roles across nonprofit organizations and higher education institutions, and focused on aligning strategy, culture, and operations to create lasting transformation. He's also been an instructor for undergraduate and doctoral student seminars, exploring his passion for easing student transitions through their educational experiences. Isaac earned his bachelor's degree in sociology from the University of Virginia, as well as masters and doctoral degrees in higher education administration from George Washington University. Isaac, welcome to this podcast. We're so excited to have you on Work Forces with us today. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Julian Alssid: Yes, and thank you for joining us, Isaac. We've talked a little bit about your background. Well, tell us a bit more and what led you to your role at the SHRM Foundation. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: I got here in part because I'm always very fascinated and very passionate about education and how people go about learning things that then activates them to do things. And so working in higher education, and encountering all of these college students that came in at 18, 19, 20, 21 years old with some understanding of the things that they thought that they were going to do for the rest of their lives, that was just really fascinating to me. And then seeing the evolution over time where their mind changed around that thing, that was also fascinating. I ended up getting into workforce development and talent cultivation, because I realized that it wasn't just enough to understand what they were learning when they were on the college campus, I was really intrigued by then what did they do? Like, where did they go? Where did they end up? How did they navigate their careers after they left that environment? And so that kind of helped me think more broadly, beyond getting people to degree attainment to getting them actually to career mobility and to ultimately, a productive citizenry, which is what, which is what the mission of higher education is actually designed to be. And so I got connected to the SHRM Foundation in part because I just have been really fascinated with, how do we get employers into the game even further to understand their role and to help them as they are trying to tap into this workforce that is filled with skills, but yet we're not matching people in ways that are quick, even though we can see some of the ways in which there might be alignment. And so this position is is actually structured to help try and address that, that gap. Kaitlin LeMoine: As we jump into this conversation, we'd love to learn a little bit more about the SHRM Foundation and your role in widening pathways to work. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: The SHRM Foundation is the 501(c)(3) nonprofit arm of the Society for Human Resource Management. And the Society for Human Resource Management is the largest network of HR professionals in the world. And so we have 340,000 members that are then deployed and activated into all types of businesses around the world. And so we believe that we can leverage HR and leverage those professionals to advance social good, which is how the foundation came to be. And so in the foundation, we focus on three bodies of work: strengthening the HR field, because we don't often think about who's going to come behind the current HR folks, and who is actually going to take on the new challenges related to HR, and how are we positioning those folks to be successful in that, and so we have a body of work that's focused there. We have a body of work that's focused on thriving together, and how are we creating cultures of care within employers and employer environments. And so how are we focusing on things like the social determinants of health, about or caregiving or workplace mental health, the types of things that make people feel seen and safe at work in order to continue to be there. And then the third part is my area, which is the widening pathways to work area which is focused on skills first, and the things that we do to help employers adopt skills first approaches. How do we test things, try things out so that we are reducing the risk as best we can for people to adopt initiatives that are going to help talent be seen better. And then the other part of that is untapped pools of talent. So who are we not seeing and how can we create opportunities to see them better and also to get them fully activated in this world of work. And so the SHRM Foundation does all of that, and our goal is to try and figure out where are, what's the messaging, what are the levers, where, who are the partners that we need to bring together to actually make this ecosystem work for job seekers and employers at the same time. Julian Alssid: Tell us a bit more about your area, Widening Pathways to Work. And in particular, we're really interested in hearing about the new Center for a Skills First Future. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: What's so exciting about that portfolio is that we're really trying to figure out what are the things that are getting in the way, and how can we start to solution around those things? And so we know that there are 7.3 million open jobs, and we are highly dissatisfied with that, because it's not because there's a shortage of talent. There's just a shortage of alignment. There isn't those connections and those systems that we're leveraging to make talent visible so that employers can make hiring decisions that make the most sense for them are, to some degree working, and in a lot of ways not working, and that is resulting in a lot of job seekers being incredibly frustrated, and employers also being dissatisfied with what they're getting. And in an age of AI, where we do have some functions that are being shifted based on technology, and we have job seekers leveraging AI to try and make themselves look more visible and competitive, we're in this environment where we have to be having this conversation about how we get these different sides to see each other. So that is what's exciting about the Widening Pathways work, because we are going to have to be considerate of all the things that are happening socially if we're going to make these pathways wider for everybody to walk through them. The Center for a Skills First Future we just launched that in June. We're really excited about that, because this is our try to help meet employers where they are, and that type of work is critical. You've mentioned before about our specific focus on small and mid sized businesses. This is intentional, because for large and enterprise businesses where you are well resourced to try a lot of things. And, you know, figuratively, throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall. You can try a lot of things to see what works. And then you can invest, or make investments based on what you think is working. And you have teams to support that you have, quite frankly, you have teams. To try a lot of different things. For our small and mid sized businesses, they don't, do not have that luxury as much. It's usually a team of one or a team of two that are driving all of the initiatives related to human capital in the organization. And so you can't, you know, it's hard to be thinking about managing benefits and also recruitment, and also employee grievances, and also onboarding and off boarding. And so what we were trying to do is to figure out, how can we put a series of tools at someone's fingertips and let them choose their own adventure? And so that's what the Center really tries to do. So we have four major components of it, where we are trying to take resources and make them most accessible. We have a Skills Action Planner, so any organization can go in and just knowing what's going on at the organization, you can take this assessment, which will give you a readout of your current state and where you are in terms of adoption of skills first practices, and also it maps out for you your desired state based on what you said that you would like to be. And we just then curate a list of resources to help you get from point A to point B. And so we try to remind people, this is this is the time to be ambitious, but we don't have to boil the ocean. So you get overwhelmed when you think about all of the skills first things that you could do. We try to normalize for folks, but it's okay to just do one thing. Just, let's just try that one thing and see how that goes. So whether it is removing degree credentials from a job description, or maybe it's leaning into behavior based hiring, whatever you choose that makes the most sense for where your organization is, we'll give you some tools to at least try and get that momentum going. We have a Skills First credential. It's a one of a kind credential. So for folks that are trying to learn more about what it means to navigate this space and how to navigate some of the barriers you may be running into in your organization, there's a space for you to learn and deepen your skill set so you can help bring others in your organization along, which is really exciting. We have a resource library where we are amassing all of the things scholarly and practically, that have been sourced around this movement, and having it all in one place so that you can search for it however you need to and get access to it. And then for folks that are further along than know this is what I want to do. I just need a vendor, or I need a partner to help me. We have a vendor database where people can go in and just access those professional services that they need to get something off the ground to move closer to implementation. And so we created this hub with the support of 14 coalition partners to really figure out, What do employers need, and how can we make those tools most accessible to them? We're acknowledging we are operating in this space because we have the connections to employers. We're not the only people operating in this space, and everybody has a different lane that they're working in some folks focus on talent. Some folks are focusing on employers. Some are focused on community based organizations. Some are focused on policy. But we all have to be in a conversation together about this, because the ripple effect impact all of us, and so it's great to also have brought together this coalition to be having these conversations together, and so we're excited about the center, and we're excited about how it can hopefully help accelerate adoption for as many people as possible, regardless of how your organization is structured or where you are on your skills first journey. Kaitlin LeMoine: So Isaac, given that you know, this was developed with a coalition of employers, really at the table to help inform. I'm curious to hear a little bit more. What are some of the most pressing challenges you're hearing from employers? Like, what's the perspective of, I know you said, you know, maybe just start with one thing, right? Like, maybe it's hard to take on this whole skills-first bucket of work. But I'm just curious to know, you know, what are some of the perspectives you're hearing from employers and from job seekers in this new, relatively new skills first environment that we're operating in? Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: I'll start with the job seekers. I think that the process is frustrating. This is a tough job market to be in right now, and I say that not only is someone working to widen some of those pathways, but also as somebody that had to navigate that job market. And so I'm three months into this role, and so I also was on the job seeking side, trying to figure out how I get my skills recognized and validated, and this is a hard environment to do that, particularly. When folks are also leveraging AI to make enhancements to their candidate materials, like your resume, your cover letter. And so we're finding that a lot of things because of that look the same. So it becomes really hard for employers to distinguish who has done what. And so that is a very frustrating experience for job seekers to be in, where you want to be actively participating in work, but because of the scale and the size of the job market right now, it's just really hard to stand out on the employer side. We hear a lot about there's a lot of intent, as you mentioned earlier. You know 90% of employers want to be leaning into these skills first approaches. Only 15% have actually done things that's because operationalizing a big idea is hard, and change is harder, especially when you have developed a tradition around certain types of practices that you feel like makes it easier. Like before, a degree was a signifier for you that somebody had some skill or proficiency that you wanted, and you could then filter people out by that. Now we're seeing degrees are not the only place that are telling those stories. Experiences tell us that, skills tell us that, competencies tell us that. And so how do we create an environment where employers can see all of that and then know what to do with it, because it's just so much, and in that environment, not all things operate the same or are created equal? Not all credentials are the same, not all degrees are created equal. So for a hiring manager that's just trying to understand, can this person do what I need? There are so many things to consider to try and get to that answer, and we're then finding people are going through that process of getting through that to that answer, and finding out that that you know, there's more upskilling that's needed, or there are additional supports that are needed in order for that employee to contribute and actively participate. So there's just so many things going on here for employers and for job seekers at the same time, and because there are very few mechanisms for those populations, those audiences, to be talking to each other, that's just harboring more frustration right with the process, because people are not really communicating, and also people are existing with all of these challenges that seem insurmountable to try to fix. So what we're trying to do, at least on the employer side, is make it more digestible, to make it step by step, for us to start thinking about, oh, well, have you considered this? Let's just try this first, and let's see what we're learning from this. Let's understand what success looks like when it comes to this. And one other thing that I'd like to add is, I do want to emphasize, we have chartered this Center for a Skills First Future, and sometimes there's some confusion around what Skills First actually means. And so we are trying to figure out that many different ways that people can be visible to employers and employers can recognize and validate certain skills, but we're not saying that this is a complete replacement for the bachelor's degree, and so we're not working in competition with degrees. We're trying to figure out and get clearer about the ways that degrees also convey a certain set of skills. And so we're trying to treat skills as the primary... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39554030

Work Forces Rewind: Joe E. Ross: Pioneering the Apprenticeship Degree Model 12/16/2025

Work Forces Rewind: Joe E. Ross: Pioneering the Apprenticeship Degree Model Joe E. Ross, President, CEO and co-founder of Reach University and the National Center for the Apprenticeship Degree, discusses Reach University's "apprenticeship degree" model that turns jobs into degrees rather than the traditional approach of obtaining a job post-graduation. The conversation explores Reach's approach to addressing the "hiding in plain sight" talent crisis by serving the 40-50 million Americans in the workforce without degrees who wish they had them. Ross outlines Reach's three ABCs framework: Affordability, Based in the workplace from day one to graduation, and Credit for learning at work. He shares compelling outcomes from Reach's growth from 67 candidates to over 3,000 across eight states, with 70% graduation rates for Pell-eligible students compared to the typical 40-50%. Ross also discusses the National Center for the Apprenticeship Degree's work with 50 institutions across a dozen states, and offers practical steps for listeners interested in getting involved with apprenticeship degrees. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Kaitlin LeMoine: Hello all, hope you are doing well and enjoying the lead-up to the holiday season. As we prepare for our next podcast season, we're closing out the month with a couple of Work Forces "Rewinds", featuring two insightful conversations from this past year. Today, we're revisiting our conversation with Joe E. Ross, President of Reach University. In this conversation, we dive deep into Reach's pioneering "apprenticeship degree" model, which turns jobs into degrees rather than the traditional approach of obtaining a job post-graduation. We hope you enjoy the discussion with Joe as much as we did. While we'll be back with new episodes in the new year, we want to pause to express our appreciation for you, our listeners. Julian and I are so grateful for your feedback, your likes and shares, and your overall engagement with the Work Forces podcast. Your encouragement and perspectives continue to shape the conversations we hold and inform our consulting work every day. We'll be back to kick off our next season soon..in the meantime, we hope you enjoy this episode! Julian Alssid: Welcome back today. We're diving deep into a topic that's central to our work, the evolution of higher education to better serve the modern workforce. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, we are Julian. We've talked a lot about the need for new models, especially those that bridge the gap between learning and earning. So many of our conversations have pointed to the power of apprenticeships and skills based pathways, including our past podcast discussions with Bob Lehrman and John Colborn on the evolution of apprenticeships and the opportunities they afford learners and employers alike. Julian Alssid: That's right. Kaitlan and as we discussed with Bob and John, the apprenticeship movement has been gaining momentum in recent years. Just in August 2025 the Trump administration issued a talent strategy report that calls for the expansion of Federal Registered Apprenticeships, including promoting stronger connections to universities and colleges. Our guest today is at the forefront of this movement, pioneering a groundbreaking model that's reshaping what a degree can look like, the apprenticeship degree. In fact, the apprenticeship degree was called out in the Feds report as a key part of the new apprenticeship initiative. And so today, we'll be discussing this and more with Joe E Ross, President, CEO and co founder of Reach University and the National Center for the apprenticeship degree. Kaitlin LeMoine: Before building Reach, Joe served as president of the statewide association for county school boards in California, and served for 10 years as a locally elected school board member. He previously served as general counsel to a venture studio in several technology startups, and as a deputy district attorney, he acted as sole counsel in numerous hearings and jury trials. Earlier in his career, he served eight years on active duty in the US Navy. The son of a US Postal Service labor custodian, Joe went on to earn degrees from Yale and Stanford Law School. And Joe, we're excited to welcome you to the podcast with us today. Thanks so much for joining us here. Joe E. Ross: Kaitlin, Julian, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Julian Alssid: Yes, indeed, it is a pleasure to have you, and if you will, you know, we've said a little bit about your background, but we'd love to hear you tell us a little bit more, and the story of what led you to co found Reach. Joe E. Ross: Yeah, sure. So first off, I must offer the disclaimer, I never imagined that I would be a college president growing up. That's not the thing that was on my bucket list, among many things, but I do think I, very early on, acquired a conviction that education is the way you build your own future, I think of it as the pen that you need to have in your hand to write your own future. As you mentioned, my biological father worked for the post office as a labor custodian (that means janitor), and my mom died kind of young, and he was injured in an accident. And I was raised starting at age four by my aunt and uncle, and I think in moving into that new household, in my little head, I must have noticed that these adults had careers and they had degrees and they had power over their lives. And I think in my little head, I thought, I want all three of those things, and I got it into my head that education was my way to those things. That's the only thing I can point to as an explanation for why I was such a nerd in school and so motivated in school, and also why later, after trying all sorts of other things with that pen to my hand, I was a Navy officer, I was a prosecutor, I was an ed tech entrepreneur, I always tacked back to education as where my passion was, and so about 15 years ago, I started running an after school program that sought to turn after school staff into teachers, and that was essentially a job embedded, apprenticeship based program, the first of its kind. And I saw this, this potential of combining work with higher ed. And so fast forward to the fall of 2020, Reach University launched as it's in its current form as an accredited nonprofit institution with a very simple mission, which is to turn jobs into degrees, as you said in the intro, as opposed the other way around. And that model is called the apprenticeship degree. Now. Kaitlin LeMoine: So you know. Reach University has a unique B2B2C model, right where you partner directly with employers, but you have this dual customer approach of working with employers but also serving the needs of your learners. Can we dive in a little bit there? I mean, this is a complex model to build. How have you gone about it? Joe E. Ross: Yeah, so it's, it's interesting, it's complex, but it also creates some simplicity as well. If you're running an apprenticeship degree, by definition, you are running a model that's based in the workplace from day one to the day of graduation. In fact, I'll back up. I probably should share for everybody what we mean by apprenticeship degree, and then that will lead lead to the answer. So an apprenticeship degree is defined by elements associated with apprenticeship going back centuries. This is not something that the Department of Labor defined 50 years ago or 10 years ago or this summer. It's something that goes back to a tradition that is very long standing, and apprenticeships had three defining elements that I think of as the ABCs that apply to an apprenticeship degree, a stands for Affordability for the learner, and in this day and age, that means without student debt, apprentices have been asked for their sweat, not for their debt, right? So at Reach University, we made this commitment the beginning, that no one would be would pay out of pocket. No learner would pay out of pocket more than $75 a month for full time enrollment in a full time work embedded degree program that's a for affordability. B stands for Based in the workplace from day one to the day of graduation or the day of completion. An apprenticeship degree starts with a paid job. It ends, or is designed to end, with a better paid job. And C stands for Credit for work, Credit for learning at work. Kind of has a double meaning. Learning at work means literally learning at work, but it also means learning put to work, theory, meaning practice. C also stands for Credential of value. This is not a compromise. It is still a Bachelor of Arts or a Master of Arts or an Associate of Arts. AA does not stand for Apprenticeship Arts Degree. It stands for Associate of Arts degree. So with that definition in mind, let me go back to B based in the workplace. The reason we think of this as a B2B2C model, as opposed to a, B2C model is because you can't run an apprenticeship or an apprenticeship degree without close engagement with employers and for the university. What that means, among many things, is that instead of coming to the university looking for graduates, the employer comes to the university at the front end, bringing the students, you work with employers, and then the employers engage their incumbent workforce, or they actually recruit new employees into jobs that come with degrees. And so what you end up seeing is a lot of partnership work with employers, which is kind of shoe leather and handshaking and presence on the ground, as opposed to buying Google AdWords and competing in the internet for advertising for consumers. And as a result of that, a B2B2C model is much more affordable to execute, and that savings gets passed on to the apprentices, to the learners, in the form of much lower tuition, much more affordability. Julian Alssid: So Joe, your model, in a sense, is helping to solve labor shortages. And want to hear you talk about, like, who these who these learners are, and what kinds of jobs you're preparing them for. This notion that there's like, this talent, and you know the term like hiding in hiding in plain sight, yeah, is really what you're about, yeah. Joe E. Ross: Well, we started five years ago with our teachers college, and we were focused on the teacher shortage. And by any estimate, there's many as 30 to 50,000 structural vacancies, to as much as 300,000 structural vacancies in teaching. And what we discovered is that in the very same buildings where principals were looking for teachers where there were classrooms without permanent staff, in those same buildings, there were a lot of human beings doing other jobs that didn't require degrees. They were working as classroom aides, as library aides, they were in the lunchroom, they were in the office, driving the bus. They were janitors, like my father and each of these individuals share, typically, the same story. At some point, they had to choose that job instead of a degree to take care of their family. For example, we did some research, because this was anecdotal, and this was something we were seeing on the ground, but we did some research. You know, if you look the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there's about 1.3 to 1.5 million classroom aids in this country, if there's only 50,000 teacher shortages, you only need a fraction of those aids, a fraction of those aides to get upskilled, earn a degree, to just end a teacher shortage. That type of ratio plays out in other high demand industries. If you look at nursing, there's a nursing shortage, but there's also a tremendous number of people working in hospitals as patient care assistants, or certified nursing assistants and many other roles who, if we actually treated those people as the talent we need and give them the opportunity to rise up, we would end these labor shortages and we create this upward mobility that we want this country to stand for. We bring it to life in places, particularly rural places that are education deserts. So that's basically the story here we have, on one hand, estimates suggest about 10 million high demand labor shortages in high demand industries, and on the other hand, there's 40 to 50 million people working in the workforce who do not have a degree, but surveys indicate they wish they did have a degree. And if we can actually move higher ed to think about that population, those 50 million people already in the workforce or about to enter the workforce, as the market for higher ed, as opposed to the 3 million graduating from high school every year, or maybe in addition to the 3 million who are graduating from high school every year, it's such a win, win. Higher ed has a new mission, 50 million people who were left out get brought back in, and we address labor shortages in high demand fields, particularly in rural, remote places where often the only answer is to do a grow your own effort, as opposed to recruiting effort. Kaitlin LeMoine: Can you tell us a little bit, Joe about how this model works like a practical level. So you said, right? You know, people learners should be, you know, receiving credit for the work that they're doing on the job. But what does it look like to implement this? Joe E. Ross: I think the apprenticeship degree is always met with this kind of, oh, this sounds too good to be true. Somebody can have a paid job. Half the learning in their degree program comes from that paid job. The other half comes from seminars held at night or on the weekends or asynchronous instruction. There's no student debt. There's a better paid job waiting at the end of it. Employers are feeling labor shortages, individuals are getting upward economic mobility, and people are kind of like, well, that's genius. Too good to be true. How do you do you do it? Just like you just asked, here are some things that need to go into the design approach. First, employers to higher education providers need to work really closely together to make sure that the degree design meets the needs of the employer. In many ways, the employer is the customer here. They should be actually, in many cases, paying for the program instead of the learner, right? So you have to work with the employers to design now and teaching that's fairly straightforward, because every state knows what teachers need to know, and it's pretty common across state borders what teachers need to know. Similarly, in other professions like a nursing or radiological technician or other allied health fields, the standards of what you need to know in those professions as well now, but you still need to work with employers to make sure that the program design works. And then from there, the employers are also your key partners. I said earlier in recruiting their incumbent workforce, or their new hires into these pathways with the promise that their jobs are not just job type jobs, but jobs that turn into degrees and then give you upward mobility after completion of a certain set period of time. In terms of the actual design of the model, part of what's required here is to rethink some practices that are often taken as rules or laws or regulations, but are just habits In higher education. And I'll give you one example. There's something called the Carnegie Unit that is about the ratio of seat time to homework time, essentially. And this is seen as a barrier to work embedded degree programs, because, oh my gosh, we had to have this much seat time, and then people have to, have to do this, this much homework, and then they have to work 40 hours a week. How do you fit it all in? And so one of the things that we did from the beginning said, Look, you can reimagine the Carnegie Unit as being a function of seat time and work time as opposed to seat time and homework time, right? So if you can combine seat time with assignments on the job, or sense making around what you're doing on the job instead of mindless, irrelevant problem sets or whatever the case may be busy work. But actually make work work, the work instead of busy work, the work. You can actually create an environment where for a learner, and this is the objective for a worker, one plus one in this case, equals one. It should feel like their job and their higher education pathway are the same thing. That's the key element of efficiency here that needs to go into the design. And then from there, there's things in a higher education credential that people think, Well, how could you do that in the workplace? For example, you need to know English or critical thinking or history or writing, or all these things that are referred to as general education? Well, it turns out you can carefully design the liberal arts component of almost any professional or occupational degree to be relevant to that occupation. We're designing a program right now in behavioral health, for example. And to get an associate or bachelor's degree, you need something that looks like writing and reading and literature for to be a degree, but you can choose something that's relevant. So we have a semester we're designing where there's two tracks of learning. One is psychology, one, two and three, which is with one faculty member, and then there's practice on the job. And the other track is literature, but it's going to be the literature of mental illness, right? And it's going to feel really integrated with the psychology track, and it's going to be relevant to the job. So that's the kind of curricular design work that I think the apprenticeship degree needs to entail. Because at the end of the day, these are working adults, and we know what working adults need, and we sometimes are really good at giving them what they need at the graduate level, but now we have to give them what they need at the undergraduate level to make sure the associate degree in the bachelor's degree truly is working better. Julian Alssid: It's all about that context, really, and just baking it in all around. So then, given this integration and approach like, what are the metrics that you're using to track and what's your impact today? Joe E. Ross: Yeah, we started with 67 candidates in our pilot cohort in the Louisiana and Arkansas Deltas. That was five years ago. We'll have well over 3,000 candidates across almost 500 school districts in eight states as of this fall. So the program is growing. That's one metric that's important. And in some places, school districts and parishes are reporting the sentiment that their teacher shortage seems to be going away, which is great news, and in part, that's because of programs like, like Reach University, and that's exciting to see when, when do you get to, like, actually solve a major social problem as a nonprofit leader in your life, it's always something on the horizon. We're actually seeing shortages go away, which is amazing. Notably, the population we're serving are overwhelmingly Pell eligible. And so Pell eligibility, I think, is a good proxy for economic need. And any given semester, roughly 70 to 75% of our enrollment is Pell eligible, 37 to 39 year old folks with families and full time jobs,... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39424425

Amber Garrison Duncan: Advancing Competency-Based Education 12/02/2025

Amber Garrison Duncan: Advancing Competency-Based Education Amber Garrison Duncan, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of the Competency-Based Education Network (C-BEN), discusses the evolution of competency-based education from seven pioneering institutions in 2013 to over 600 institutions and 1,000 programs today. Drawing from her experience assessing co-curricular learning outcomes in traditional higher education and later as a grantmaker at Lumina Foundation, Garrison Duncan explains how CBE restores the promise of economic mobility by focusing on mastery of skills rather than seat time. She details C-BEN's systems-level work through initiatives like the Center for Skills and the Partnership for Skills Validation, which build consensus across K-12, higher education, and employers on quality standards for skills assessment and validation. The conversation explores how policy shifts like Workforce Pell and state-level innovations in Alabama, Arkansas, and Texas are accelerating the movement toward skills-based credentials, financial aid, and talent management systems. Duncan emphasizes the urgency of iterative innovation, comparing the current moment to the iPhone era where institutions must test and adapt quickly rather than waiting for lengthy pilot programs, and offers practical guidance for institutions to begin their CBE journey using C-BEN's Quality Framework while building authentic connections between learning outcomes and employer needs. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces Consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort, please check out our workforces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Julian Alssid: You know, Kaitlin, it feels like just yesterday, but it was actually over a dozen years ago now that we were helping to launch College for America at Southern New Hampshire University, which was one of the very first competency-based education models. And back then CBE, it felt like a radical experiment, you know, trying to prove that demonstrating mastery of competencies and not seat time in a course was the key metric to helping people advance their education and careers. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, it's true. And while it does feel like that was just yesterday, the competency based movement has come so far in so many years. While CBE is still viewed as an alternative, non traditional approach by some in the field of education and training, many institutions have and are continuing to holistically implement competency based models to go beyond the traditional credit hour and ensure a curricular emphasis on what learners can do with what they know, and as we think about the intersection of work and learning in which we're all operating, this movement has only been further strengthened as employers further focus on skills based hiring and learners seek to clearly communicate their skills and abilities in a competitive job market. Julian Alssid: Yes, and our guest today is with an organization that's been central to growing the CBE field, Amber Garrison Duncan is Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of the Competency-Based Education Network, or C-BEN. In her role, Amber spearheads initiatives to strengthen collaboration between education and workforce partners with a focus on competency and skill taxonomies and quality assurance before C-BEN, Amber spent eight years as a grant maker at Lumina Foundation, focusing on higher education success. And in her early career, she served in numerous Student Affairs roles at the University of Oregon, Florida State University, the University of Michigan, Hope College, and Texas A&M University. Amber, we're so excited to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Amber Garrison Duncan: Well, thank you for having me. It's so exciting to think back to those early days and just also how far we've come. So it's a good moment to reflect. And so thank you for this opportunity. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, thank you for joining us and for taking this moment in time to both reflect, and I guess maybe, you know, we'll spend a little time thinking about what's ahead as well. So I'm really glad to see you today for this conversation. Amber, and as we get started, we'd love to hear a little bit more about your background and what led you to your role at C-BEN, sure. Amber Garrison Duncan: Well, as you probably heard in my introduction, I had quite a bit of experience on a couple of campuses in higher ed, and are some of what I would call today our legacy institutions that have been around a long time and really are major leaders when you think about higher education. But in my experience there, I was doing assessment in the co-curriculum, and so I was not working in courses, and I was not working in time based measures. I was working on how students apply what they know and can do? How are they doing that and their co-curricular experiences or at work? And then at the University of Oregon, we were just getting to the point where saying, can we validate this and put it on a record for somebody? And so I was having that experience and also saw how hard it was to do, how much of a change it was to think about. Could people be learning outside of the four walls of this classroom, outside this desk, and where are they taking this knowledge? How would I know? And so from that just knew that also it was a lot of change, and was tired as a change maker, banging my head against the wall. So I said, Where else can I go? This is a systemic issue that, again, I worked at institutions across the country. Why is this so hard? And so then decided to pursue something that could support more of the system's change, and was lucky enough to be at Lumina for that which was a really transformative experience for me to see how the ecosystem is set up, why there's a lot of these incentives and barriers to change. And had the fortune to be leading a portfolio called Learning Infrastructure, and that was a portfolio focused on how we make sure that all high quality learning can count. And I learned there that the only way to maybe do that is, if we were to work in competencies and skills. Other countries around the world were figuring this out. We had to figure it out in the US. And luckily, there were seven institutions that said, Hey, we're already trying this Southern New Hampshire being one of those. And so C-BEN's origin story really is, how do we learn as quickly as possible from these seven institutions. Now that was back in 2013 when we were having that initial meeting and conversation. Today we have over 5000 members. There's no way to track fully and know how many CBE programs there are in the US, but we know there's well over 600 institutions that we know of, over 1000 programs. So it's kind of fascinating when we think about turning the ship in higher ed and how hard that is, and that in just 10 years time, we've gone from those early days to where we are now that really are proving out that CBE is a way to provide greater access. It's a way to ensure mastery, for that every learner gets the quality education and the skills they need. And then employers, again, are very much leaning forward to doing their skills based hiring by connecting with CBE programs. So that's like a quick evolution, and my history is just it's all tied up together in those two pieces. And so once I left Lumina, I just said, I really want to continue to be a part of this and continuing to help lead change. And so now I've been at C-BEN for four years, which, again, time flies, but a lot of really exciting progress to see and be a part of people's stories and watch our community grow. Julian Alssid: It is quite a quite a story, and you're right in the thick of it, Amber. And so looking back, you know, you mentioned the seven institutions initially. I'm pretty sure we were, we were one of them at College for America. Amber Garrison Duncan: You were the home of C-BEN at SNHU, yeah. Julian Alssid: Looking back, what are some of the key moments in the evolution of CBE since those early days that led to the growth we see today? Because it really is quite remarkable. Amber Garrison Duncan: It is, it is. Also a couple of things, I would say is we also like to remind folks that CBE, if we look at the theory and science of learning this, goes back 100 years. I mean, we all probably, if we came up through education, we're big fans of John Dewey and thinking about all this. And so it's, it's kind of interesting as like, the old ideas that have new ways of implementing and scaling. And I think that was always our problem, as you looked at the movement in the cities, that people really again, University Without Walls, and we're really trying to do this, but again, it's hard to do this without new tools. And our tools of the moment were not really there. And so early leaders, as technology started to be used in higher ed to say, Can we do this async? Can we do this in a more flexible way? Can we, you know, again, recognize what people already know and can do and move them on a personalized pathway, not treat everybody as a cohort and teach them all the same thing at the same time, right? So as we started to see that world move, I think that's where CBE started to take hold, and it was a lot of early online learning institutions saying, hey, let's try this thing out where, yeah, we've got this moving async, and we know we can kind of personalize this. But what if we did this instead of again based on time and a module that, again, it's based on as soon as you master and being able to lift that is, again, it's no small task. But certainly, I think early movers were trying to reach people that they hadn't been able to serve before. They were trying to make sure that, again, what they were asking people to perform and know and do was relevant. Had payoff for those individuals and those residents in the way that we all hope, that it led to family sustaining wages, that, to me, it was about restoring the promise of higher ed that we really are about economic mobility, and we needed to try something new to reach people in ways that we hadn't before. And so that, I think, has been, as I hear over and over those 600 institutions talking about why they're trying to do this is they're trying to reach people who just wouldn't have maybe come to us before, wouldn't have been able to have that learning. And again, they want to make sure that if I ask you to spend that one Pell Grant, you get, or that Workforce Pell piece, or that that's your one shot for a lot of people. And I want to make sure it's worth it to you, and that you get, again, that economic return, and so CBE really is the solution to provide that. Kaitlin LeMoine: So building off your last comment there Amber, just around, you know, Workforce Pell and where we're headed, right? I mean, we'd love to hear, you know, what are some of the pressing challenges that you see as institutions and organizations seek to work? Work in this complex landscape, and where are there opportunities, especially around, you know, building a skills based ecosystem that involves all these parties, and really not only involves them, but I guess, allows them to collaborate and work together effectively. Amber Garrison Duncan: You know, I think Workforce Pell is a is kind of a bellwether in the policy incentives and things that will start to shift to reward and make sure that we're paying for things that have, again, return on investments, whether that's, you know, we've been working deeply in Alabama and helping them shift their credentials of value onto what are the skills, not just the labor market demand signal and the but what are the actual skills people need, and how do we make sure those credentials are delivering on those skills, and we're paying for that, not just a completion so again, I think Workforce Pell is starting to lean that way. I think more of the accountability measures are going to be headed that way, and quality assurance being tied to that. So I think that's a huge lever for the work that we're doing, and why people can kind of land on this as a solution to answer that. But again, it comes with a lot of challenges. We are, I say we go everywhere skills go. But if you look at where skills go, it's all the proxies of time that are attached to that, so the credit hour and the just getting into the like, where do I go find a person's skills? Well, I've got to go into the LMS, and I've got to hack the course, and then I've got to hack the assessment platform and the la, la, la, la. And it's like, holy cow. So it's definitely not without challenge. And I do feel like, for the first time, we have again, the market has shifted, and people are starting to say we do need to pay attention to how hard that is. Oh, we do need to say again, should we rethink financial aid based on time and maybe have competency based measures? States again are starting to lead the way in that again Alabama, California. Folks are trying to think about new ways to pay for learning based on skills and competencies and not seat time. We're starting to see Arkansas. Just this morning. I was just reading. They were like, we're not going to call it non credit anymore. It's professional skills learning. And like, why do we again have everything attached to credit? Non credit and hours and time and again. I think that we'll continue to explore, but I do think that it also represents a revisioning of the social contract and thinking about how we pay for things as a society at a moment in time when everything feels very disrupted. But how do we have the forum and the space to talk about what that means, and again, disperse funds, or have policies or have employer engagement in these ways that we all feel comfortable with. And so that's where C-BEN, we're spending a lot of our time. How are we building consensus? How do we reshape a system and not replicate things of the past? As we were getting on, we were talking about, we now have an apprenticeship track at our conference, and we have K-12 coming. And I think now that we're starting to see all these innovators are coming up, looking up and saying, let's not build systems the way that we had them before that we don't like. Let's connect them, because people are trying to move between them. And how do we use skills and competencies to do that? And again, find new ways and new paths in this kind of reimagining using skills as the foundation. And that's what gets me too really excited, but that, again, it's a lot of challenge that we're going to have to face, because now we're talking about admissions policies, and we're talking about dual enrollment, we're talking about things that we have we thought we solved, and now we're figuring out we didn't quite solve them, and we'd like to do better. But that is, is, I think the challenge of where we go next is, how do we build together so that as we're innovating, we don't run past each other, or we don't change one side of the system and not the other. People still need that lifelong learning journey, and we've got to be able to again collaborate to do that. Julian Alssid: So it really is this big systemic issue, and it sounds like C-BEN has been spending quite a bit of time thinking about this and trying to build and scale solutions that cut across the education and employer landscape. You know, I will say, while I agree Workforce Pell's, you know, certainly a bellwether. You know, it's not going to be a lot of money. How do we get solutions that have the employers and educators working in new ways at scale. And what do you guys see being done to advance this? You know, like we want to hear about your, you know, your new Center for Skills and the Partnership for Skills Validation. Amber Garrison Duncan: Yes, Workforce Pell, it's going to be a small amount, but it is our first dip in something different, right, a little bit, but still tied to the credit hours, so we still have to figure that out. But baby steps, baby steps, it is, it's a baby step, it's a baby step, it is a big baby step. But I certainly, through the Center for Skills, as we are observing, again, this growth. We said, how do we get to the intersection? And so. That's where the Center for Skills really comes in and says, if we're really talking about not just skills, as in, like, what's the sentence that describes skills we're talking about, what are the new types of evidence we need to base these policy decisions on? If we're saying people should be awarded or recognized based on mastery and demonstration of skill, for award of a credential. But we're also seeing again, employers saying, I want to hire people based on that mastery. I want to pay them. We're seeing a couple weeks ago, I was at Walmart and they gathered a lot of their peers, from Home Depot to Best Buy, saying, how do we restructure our performance based talent management structures. How are we incentivizing people? How do we pay people? How do we provide recognition for their skills? That's a huge shift. Again, collectively, for all of us to be having that conversation. But again, we can't just say, What do I slap a label on, but what's the performance evidence? And that's where the Center for Skills is trying to say, let's have that conversation at the intersection of what assessment means at the end of the day, and that our perceptions and the ways that we've traditionally done assessment has to shift and change. All of us, you know, if we're older than 20, probably are used to standardized tests and multiple choice, and those are great knowledge tests. Those are things we know we can do with great rigor and validity and reliability. But what we're talking about now is a new world where things are based on demonstration of skill. It's what I know, it's what I can do. What are the different contexts I can do that in? So it's a much richer, nuanced conversation, and that means we have to have new assessment tools and new ways of understanding that and that we shouldn't, again, back to this concept of like we shouldn't go build those separate from each other. If we're trying to all use the same evidence, how do we agree? How to create that evidence? What does quality look like? So that's really what the Partnership for Skills Validation is driving that consensus from K-12 to gray, employer to here, you know, we just released the common language. How do you just talk about this in the most common way possible, demonstration of skill performance. We're observing people and their behaviors at work, or we're observing people in their learning experience. How do we talk about it? And then again, what does quality look like, and how do we scale it? And that's what we're trying to drive that conversation and be that catalyst for consensus, so that, again, these things don't get created separate from each other, and then they don't work together. Kaitlin LeMoine: It's really amazing the work you're doing at all these levels, right? The systems it sounds like you're at the systems level. You're at the very tactical level of what does this look like to implement at one institution, or like, how do you change your technical systems to support this work, and then working across... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39224955

Dan Gonzalez: Scaling a Reimagined Approach to Internships 11/18/2025

Dan Gonzalez: Scaling a Reimagined Approach to Internships Dan Gonzalez, Co-founder and CEO of District C, discusses how his nonprofit is democratizing access to authentic workplace learning through Teamship, a reimagined internship model where teams of high school students solve real business problems. Drawing from his background as a physics teacher and education entrepreneur, Gonzalez explains how District C emerged from early conversations about AI's impact on work and the need to develop uniquely human, durable skills. He details the program's innovative design—breaking abstract concepts like "teamwork" into observable behaviors and coaching protocols—and shares how they've made the model accessible to over 7,000 students by embedding it in Career and Technical Education courses. Gonzalez describes their low-lift, high-impact approach to employer engagement that requires just five hours of business partner time across four to five weeks, enabling 700 employers to participate without the complications of traditional internships. The conversation explores their test-and-learn philosophy from startup through scaling, the dramatic student improvement across multiple cycles, and practical strategies for both educators seeking to implement experiential learning and employers wanting to support youth development while addressing real business challenges. Transcript Julian Alssid Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry, and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces Podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Welcome to today's show. It feels like every day we're both reading and hearing about the importance of experiential learning opportunities for students while enrolled in college, and more and more so in K through 12 education, while the importance of these opportunities has been recognized for many years, efforts to develop authentic applied learning in real world contexts at scale have become front and center. Julian Alssid: It's so true, Kaitlin, we're seeing a significant alignment around this. More employers are actively seeking practical, applied skills earlier in the talent pipeline, and educators and learners alike are seeing the value of academic learning applied in real world work environments. Authentic projects are becoming an integral and essential part of the learning experience. Kaitlin LeMoine: Exactly, and with all that being said, we're really looking forward to our discussion today with Dan Gonzalez, co-founder and CEO of District C, a national nonprofit that prepares the next generation of diverse talent for modern work. District C offers a unique program called Teamship, which is a reimagined internship where teams of students solve real problems for real businesses. Julian Alssid: To provide a bit of background. Dan studied engineering at Dartmouth College before becoming a high school physics teacher. After teaching, Dan joined Manhattan Prep, a global leader in test preparation, and became president of the company in 2011 shortly after it was acquired by Kaplan. In 2017, Dan co-founded District C and has been working on its build out since. We're thrilled to have you on the podcast, Dan, and thanks so much for joining us. Dan Gonzalez: My gosh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Kaitlin LeMoine: We're really excited to have the chance to speak with you today, Dan. So as we get started today, we'd love to learn a little bit more about your background and what led you to founding District C. Tell us the story. Dan Gonzalez: Yeah, so one, one interesting, what I think is an interesting kind of founding story about the founding is my wife and I started District C together as co-founders. We started our research back in 2016 and we both quit our jobs at the same time to invest full time in District C. And I think what we were seeing at the time was, you know, obviously people have been talking about artificial intelligence for many, many decades, but around 2016, 2017 the conversation started to come into the national forefront as it relates to work and preparing for work. And we were kind of trying to look ahead and imagine what do we need to be preparing students for if we are kind of confronting this reality of an AI dominated workplace, and so, you know, at the time, this was a couple of years after the code.org put out that video, and there was kind of this national movement around preparing students to be coders and software developers. And the thing that we are trying to imagine is, all right, if, if we are thinking about how to prepare young people for any job in the future with the skills and competencies they need to cut across any industry, how would we design a learning model that would do that? Now you can call them professional skills, durable skills, soft skills, 3Cs, 5cs, 10, Cs whatever you want to call them, but these like uniquely human skills, and that's what we were after, and that's what we set out to try to figure out. Julian Alssid: So you were you? You were talking AI practically before it was born. Dan Gonzalez: Maybe, maybe not, not so, so early. But I would say, Yeah, we were thinking about it back then. And I think, like, obviously looking back now, we feel like it was the right place to be focused. And I would say one challenge we had early on as we were thinking about building a program like the one we built, is a lot of conversation was centered on, as I said, coding, entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial education. And so it was hard to cut through some of that conversation. And even though there was a lot of discussion around portraits of a graduate, how do we help students develop durable skills, soft skills, the default in education, as you all know, is to kind of generally come back to the content and focus on the content. And so things like coding, entrepreneurship, etc., stem where content tends to be at the front and center, those are the things that tend to carry the day in education conversations. So we had a little trouble initially, kind of cutting through some of that and really trying to focus on all right, if we're serious about durable skills, how do we really get down past the abstractions into learning models that really help students develop these things. And so it took, you know, a couple of years of trial and error and experimentation with the model that we built before we started to kind of feel like the conversation was changing. Julian Alssid: Okay, so, how? So, how are you teaching durable skills? What is the program model? Yeah, yeah. This is the question everyone wants to know. Dan Gonzalez: So the program model is called Teamship. You can think of Teamship as a reimagined team-based internship, where teams of students solve real problems for real businesses in the community, and all the while, they're getting coached by an educator who's been trained and certified by District C and so students are getting proactive support as they're going through this generally 25 to 35 hour experience. The thing that we learned early on was putting students in teams and asking them to solve a real problem actually ended up being the easy part of the model. Of course, it takes work to go out and find businesses, engage them, prep them, Tee them up for the experience, etc. And that's a whole system of work that requires attention and care. But I think what we learned was the most difficult part was helping students actually get better at the work. So it's not enough just to create the experience and create the context for the experience to help students actually develop these skills, you actually have to coach them proactively and consistently, and as I mentioned before, kind of break away from the abstractions and get down to observable behavior. So just as an example, if I were to say Julian and Kaitlin and I'm watching you do your Teamwork, you're solving a problem for a business. Just keep in mind, be team players. Respect your teammates. Those are abstractions, right? Students don't really know what to do with that, that kind of coaching. So what we try to do is break those abstractions down into ways of working, tools, protocols, et cetera, that we can coach students on and actually observe those in their work. Instead of, Hey, be great team players. I might say, hey, Julian and Kaitlin, which set of your tools do you think you can pull out to make sure that you're getting better equity of voice in your team conversations, and they should know like, Oh, if I take tool X, I and Z and snap them together, it will create more balance of voice in our team conversation, and our work is going to be better. Our thinking is going to be better, our ideas are going to be better. Trying to break away from the abstractions and get down to the observable behavior. I think that was an insight we had early on that we really tried to build off of in subsequent years. Kaitlin LeMoine: So I feel like that response has...now I have so many other questions about the program model, but I mean, I guess one area I'm curious to hear a little bit more about is so you partner with employers and with schools to offer this program. And what is, what does the program the 25 to 35 hour model, what does that look like in schools? Is it held after school? Is it during the school day? Is it held in collaboration with a classroom instructor? Is there a range? Dan Gonzalez: Yeah, great question. So most of the Teamship experiences that students get are through their schools. And so you're exactly right. We generally partner with Career and Technical Education departments, so at the school district level, at the K 12 level, and then we work with them to identify schools that are going to adopt the Teamship model, to identify teachers that are going to go through our training and certification process. And then we support these teachers in implementing teamship In generally one of two ways. The first way is as a 25 to 30 hour experience embedded in one of their existing courses. The second way is building an entirely new course that is Teamship exclusive. So imagine a semester-long course where students do two or three Teamship cycles over the span of a semester, and each cycle, they're with a different team of students, and they're working on a new problem for a new business. So that's generally that's the predominant model, and the reason for that is, I know from, you know, back when I was young, I thought I wanted to be an engineer. I got an engineering internship because my dad knew someone, right? So I asked my dad, hey, could you help me get an internship within a week? I had it. I think we know that students with family connections and social capital, they generally don't struggle to get these kinds of experiences. But what about everyone else? So one of the keys to the Teamship design was building it so that it could be delivered and provide access to many more students than typically get these kinds of powerful workplace learning experiences. And that meant designing it so that it could be implemented at school during the school day. So that was a key kind of design constraint that we went into many years ago when we built this. Kaitlin LeMoine: I would imagine too to have the opportunity to engage in multiple of these experiences over a learner's journey through their high school experience would be really powerful to, as you said, build upon and continue to practice and learn some of these human or durable skills that you know take time to learn and hone, right? I mean, it's not like this isn't just because you've engaged in one of these experiences doesn't mean you couldn't engage in another, I assume. Dan Gonzalez: Yeah, and you all, of course, are bringing a ton of your own experience to this conversation. That is exactly the right insight. I think it was two years after we started. We piloted our first semester long course. We got 16 students from four different schools in the Raleigh, Durham area of North Carolina, and we essentially taught a course for those 16 students. They did three cycles over a semester, three Teamship cycles. And we were, I think we were taken aback at that the step wise improvement from cycle one to cycle two was kind of astounding. Like, once they get the first one under their belts, they can look back and reflect and say, that's what this is about. This is such a different experience for them, right? It's so different from traditional school. And so once they have one under their belts, they're able to, just like adapt very quickly, set new goals for themselves for the second cycle, and the level of their work just improves pretty dramatically. And so I think we realized in that moment, the most ideal implementation mode is one where students get multiple touches on the ball for exactly the reasons that you mentioned. Julian Alssid: Okay, so, so staying on the path of specifics, this is great. It's really, really fascinating. And so much of what we try to do is unpack and understand, like, the school side I get, how about the employers? I mean, you know you mentioned earlier, like, yeah, sure. You know, most people are getting it's mostly word of mouth. For most people, that's how they found an internship. How are you engaging employers at scale? How do you find and support them? Dan Gonzalez: So we have a team of people that is dedicated just to this work of engaging employers. To date, we've had, I think we're at about 700 employers who have engaged in this work. Some of them engage once. Some of them engage twice, three times. I think we've had some engage as many as nine or 10 times. The number one key is creating an opportunity for employers that is low lift, high impact. So we want to make it as easy as possible for them to say yes, and before they understand the details of the experience and what their role would be. They often come in with the assumption that their role is going to be kind of like it would be for a traditional internship, which is, all right, I'm going to have to manage a group of students over multiple weeks and multiple hours per week, right? And a lot of times, companies are hesitant to do traditional internships or offer traditional internships for high school students. Number one, because there's a whole bunch of like legal considerations when you're working with minors. Number two, they're often skeptical of high school students' ability to add real value to their businesses, right? So what we try to do is counter both of those potential skepticisms, right? So the first thing we say is, look, this is going to be a five hour experience for you over the course of four to five weeks, the first hour or so is going to be working with us to scope the problem. We're going to actually write the problem statement. We're just going to kind of interview you business partner to understand what's keeping you up at night, and then we're going to craft a business problem statement that will be accessible to high school students. And then the rest of those five hours, you're going to meet with the student teams three times, and the first time, students are going to come in and they're going to interview you, they're going to run the meeting. So all you have to do is show up and represent your business and your problem. The second time is a midpoint check in. They're going to come with some initial ideas, maybe ask you a few more questions, and then the third time, they're going to propose their solutions to you in kind of a boardroom style meeting. And so for the business partner, the reaction typically is, so I don't really have to, I don't have to mentor the students full time during this experience, and the answer to that is no, the teacher who's been trained will do that part. And so it's an easy ask that they can say yes to, given that the students are owning those three meetings and facilitating those three meetings, it's easy for the business partner to plug in. And so the first time, we make it easy for them, and they generally want to participate because they want to do good in their community. And then I think they realize that we have evidence to suggest, they realize the power of the opportunity and how much value and benefit they get out of it, and so that's when they're out for a second and third time. So that's kind of the strategy that we try to employ, that we've kind of refined over the years. Kaitlin LeMoine: So Dan, it's really interesting to hear you talk about, as Julian said, both the employer side of this and the school side, as you reflect on, I mean, you said this was you started in 2017 so you've been building this for the better part of eight years at this point. I mean, tell us about your growth trajectory. What are some of the challenges and opportunities you've encountered as you've built District C, because I would imagine that, you know, you've addressed a lot of challenges that maybe others are, you know, wrestling with day to day, and how to make this type of really authentic work, and these types of authentic projects happen in schools and communities. Dan Gonzalez: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that question. When my wife and I started this, we were both first time entrepreneurs, and so we were simultaneously wrestling with like, okay, what's what's like, the education part of this, and then what's the entrepreneurship part of this? Like, we're two new entrepreneurs trying to start something that matters and trying to make an impact. And so I think, like, one of the big challenges for me, just like a personal challenge for me early on, is I went from a job where I would wake up every morning and I'd have eight hours of meetings blocked on my calendar, and it was just back to back to back, right? And then starting District C, I'd wake up in the morning and there'd be nothing on the calendar. All proactive, right? It was all like, go out and make it happen. And that was a really difficult transition point for me. And I think one, I had a lot of impatience early on, and like wanting to see results and outcomes. And I think one learning and reflection is this kind of stuff, like when you're building something new from scratch, it takes, it just takes time. You all know this, I see the head nodding. You know this experience, it takes a lot of time to build traction. I think one of the things that, in retrospect, a good decision we made early on was we didn't, we didn't hold ourselves to getting it exactly right the first time. Instead, we took kind of a test and learn mindset, and so the first thing we did is we got 10 or 11 students around, around the community, and we just tried the first version of the program that we had dreamed up. And we learned so much from that, that first pilot, from that first trial, and we just kept building on it. And honestly, we didn't worry about the business model, we didn't worry about the scale model until we felt like we had enough reps on kind of coaching students through Teamship, where we felt like, oh yeah, this is, this is what we want to kind of put out to market. And so I would say the first phase was proving demand. Do students want to do this? Will business partners engage? And once we... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/39041340

Rick Laferriere: Building Talent Pipelines at CVS Health 11/04/2025

Rick Laferriere: Building Talent Pipelines at CVS Health Rick Laferriere, Lead Director of Workforce Initiatives at CVS Health, discusses his team's 25-year commitment to building what he calls "non-traditional talent pipelines" by partnering with workforce systems, educators, and community organizations to reach individuals who face barriers to employment. Drawing from his own journey starting as a CVScashier in high school and spending over 30 years with the company, Laferriere shares the philosophy behind creating relationships rather than transactions with community partners. He explores the complexities of operating across all 50 states where workforce systems, funding priorities, and political landscapes differ dramatically, emphasizing why customization matters more than one-size-fits-all approaches. The conversation delves into practical strategies for employers looking to engage in workforce development, including the importance of sharing curriculum and training rather than keeping it proprietary, offering work-based learning experiences before hiring, and dedicating resources to build genuine partnerships. Laferriere also addresses the challenge of measuring success in work that carries both quantitative and qualitative value, explaining why his team takes pride in the fact that only 30% of program participants come to work for CVS while the other 70% strengthen the broader community workforce. He calls on employers to get curious, join workforce boards, and find champions within their organizations who can balance passion for community impact with demonstrating business value. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort, please check out our workforce's podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Julian Alssid: Welcome back. For a long time, the education and workforce system was tasked with preparing people for jobs, with employers often playing a more passive role. But that dynamic has shifted, with employers increasingly leading the way on workforce development. Kaitlin LeMoine: It's true, Julian employers have stepped into that gap, not just to solve their own talent gaps through internal training and upskilling initiatives, but also through broader partnership initiatives designed to expand the overall talent pipeline, to reach and educate those who may otherwise not know about those career opportunities, or those who previously faced barriers to employment or educational attainment? Julian Alssid: Yes, absolutely Kaitlin. And as more companies are seeking to innovate in this space, it's helpful to look at models that are established and continuing to respond to the evolving needs of their industries and the labor market. Our guest today is Rick LaFerriere, Lead Director of Workforce Initiatives at CVS Health. Rick leads CVS award winning programs that are designed to create opportunities for people facing barriers to employment, partnering with education, community organizations and government agencies to build bridges to meaningful careers. Rick serves as the advisor to CVS Health Abilities in Abundance programming, and has oversight of CVS, highly regarded Workforce Innovation and Talent Center concept. He also contributes his time and expertise in the workforce space to several advisory and workforce boards locally and nationally. Rick, welcome to Work Forces. Rick Laferriere: Thanks, Julian, Kaitlin, nice to see you both and glad to join you today here. This is great. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, thanks so much for being with us today, Rick. It's great to see you as well, and looking forward to jumping into this conversation today. So as we get started, could you please tell us a bit more about your background, your trajectory, and what led you to your current role at CVS Health? Rick Laferriere: I've been with CVS Health for over 30 years. I actually started in a local CVS Pharmacy store when I was in high school as a cashier. And so my career here started at entry level in our stores, doing customer service. And at the time for me it was, it was a job to make money, to save money to go to college. And interestingly enough, it turned out to be a lot more than that. I ended up staying with CVS throughout my time at college. I went to school at Boston College and ended up working at CVS all throughout my college career, and when I graduated from college, realizing I had five years with CVS and an opportunity to continue in the management program, I jumped at it. It was an easy transition for me from college into the workforce and to the full time workforce. And so I ended up working on our retail side of the business for about eight or nine years as a store manager in the management program, being at ground level, really working with customers and patients in our stores. And then one day, at the end of 2007 I got a tap on my shoulder asking me if I wanted to run our brand new Regional Learning Center in Boston, which was this new concept of having a training facility, co located inside of a community partner, and in this case, it's Jewish Vocational Services in Boston, where we could work together with JVS and other community organizations and government agencies and the educational community to provide individuals from the communities we serve with the opportunity to engage in workforce and education. And at the time, I'll be honest, I didn't know much about it. I didn't know much about this team. I didn't know much about the workforce or the education space. I had had all my time at retail, but it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. So not knowing a lot about it, I said, sure, let's go for it. Let's do this. And so at the beginning of 2008 I joined the Workforce Initiatives team. Still here today, 17 plus years later, and it's pretty amazing to me to think about this journey, because I never expected to be here. I never expected that this, this was going to be my career. I never expected that I would be so invested in workforce and education and supporting people with barriers to employment. But I quickly realized after I joined the team that this was this was my calling. This is where I wanted to be. I wanted to be in this space. I had the passion, the creativity, the interest of doing it. So hopefully, my career has grown since I've been with the team. This is my fourth different position on the team. I'm now co leading the team, along with two of my colleagues. We have a team of about 40 across the country. And so when I think about the work that our team does, and I think about my own pathway here, they're very similar. We want people to engage in careers with us, because you never know where you'll end up. And I did not know that I would end up here, but I certainly am glad I did. Julian Alssid: You're the embodiment of walking the walk, I guess, or talking the talk, or whatever that term is, even though it's really, really cool. So today, then Rick, your current role, you know, what are the main workforce challenges that you're looking to solve in this role? And some of the key initiatives? Rick Laferriere: Our workforce initiative team has actually been around for 25 years, and at the core of what our team does, it's building what we call non traditional talent pipelines. Think of a traditional talent pipeline is what your talent acquisition team is doing the standard sort of recruiting approach. Our team takes a non-traditional approach, which is working with the workforce system and with education, looking at individuals who tend to be overlooked, who tend to face barriers to employment, and working with the community, working with government to build programming that helps folks attain the skills they need to come to work for us. And folks know CVS Health, mainly because of CVS Pharmacy, which are our retail stores. And of course, we've got, you know, we've got thousands of stores across the country. Retail tends to be a very high volume, high turnover type of industry. And so, you know, part of the strategy for our team and our company is, how do we find people who we've never engaged with, and have not been in the workforce, or have never considered retail for a variety of reasons, and get them interested in coming to retail. And so for us, you know, there's a bit of an existential need for talent. You know, we're constantly looking for folks for our stores, for the front part of our stores, for the pharmacy part of our stores. And you know when, when you've been doing this for as long as we've been doing it, you discover that the community has, in some way, shape or form, engaged with us at some time, but they may not know enough about our careers and our opportunities. And so there's, there's a portion of that, which is just engaging the community about what it's like to work here. But at the same time, the other part of this is being a solution to filling skills gaps and to providing people with opportunity to enter the workforce. And so for us, we are constantly hiring. We're constantly growing. You know, healthcare, even retail pharmacy is still growing. So we always need talent. And if you, if you're doing it the same way with your talent acquisition folks, or you're doing it, you know in a traditional way that others are doing it, you're gonna you're gonna run out of you're gonna run out of talent to find at some point. And so our team's job is to find new talent and find folks who have not been engaged or don't feel like they fit into the workforce or have a barrier, and so that our team is is in the community, doing that, digging deep to find folks who want to come and work for us, opening the doors to opportunity, showing them what it's like to work at CVS, and then putting someone like me in front of them, saying, I started at entry level in this company, and now Here I am. I never thought I'd be here, but here I am in a leadership role, you know, 30 plus years later, and so we really try to frame it up to the community that we want to work with them. We want to provide you with skills and training and opportunity to come and work for us and grow and eventually thrive. Kaitlin LeMoine: It strikes me as you painted the picture of how you have that conversation with an individual around like here are the opportunities available through CVS that there really is this, this customized approach to working with individual learners, but even I would imagine the community organizations themselves. I'm curious, building on that, what are some of the challenges and opportunities that you've come across as you address workforce needs, recognizing that I would imagine each area is different, and that you work across many states and regions. Rick Laferriere: Yeah, each area, region, state, is completely different, and that is the biggest challenge our team faces. Which is finding out how we best fit into workforce. You think about how workforce is set up broadly, you know, in the flow of federal or state dollars into workforce, programming and education, every state has a different priority. Every state is focused on different industries, has different populations, has different political goals as well, and all of those pieces factor into what workforce looks like. And so as a company that has a presence in all 50 states, we need to figure out how we best fit into those landscapes in each of the 50 states. What we do here in Massachusetts, which is home for me in terms of workforce, is entirely different than what it looks like in Texas, than in Florida, than in some western states. But the Northeast tends to be a bit more similar in terms of workforce and how states support workforce and the industries here. But if you're not familiar with sort of what that looks like as an employer. You're going to struggle to find your place in that workforce system. And if you come at it with a one size fits all approach, or you come at it with, you know, say, a team or an individual as an employer that is walking in with with no knowledge and no understanding of how workforce and education works in a particular region or state, you're not going to succeed. You're going to need folks who can dig deeper and understand the landscape and understand how all of that works, and also express what you're looking for as an employer. So you know, for us, it's it's challenging to understand all of those different spaces, but our team was built and designed to do just that, to understand how workforce operates. And of course, we have to do that as a big national corporation. If you're a more regional or local employer, you're able to dig in deeper where you are. And so, you know, there's certainly a little less complication for the smaller employer dealing in a smaller area, but as a big national employer, you've got to figure out everybody's systems. And so we've deployed a team that does just that, that learns and understands what what each workforce system is doing, how they're funded, how they're funding vendors or providers, what the adult ed landscape looks like, what the community college landscape looks like, the education, all of those pieces are important factors into what we do to build programming that likely is very customized, not just to us as an employer, but customized to the population, the funding, or the community partner or the provider that's doing it and really building something that works locally. Because what we found is that if we build a book and we just hand that book out to everybody and we go, here's the book, it's not going to work. It isn't going to work for a certain population. It's not going to work for a certain region, all of those pieces. So for us, customization is critical and key, and thankfully, CVS has invested in a team like ours to figure that out. And so I think that, you know, we're really well positioned as a team to do that, because we get local, because we understand, you know what, what the priorities are in each state with the federal government as well, and that helps us do our jobs even better. Julian Alssid: Well, and I imagine that understanding what those priorities are within the state and in your industry even more broadly, also requires some gazing into the crystal ball, or at least making some bets about the future of the healthcare industry and and how employers can play a role in addressing anticipated needs. Can you speak to that a little bit? I mean, how do you do that? Are you doing that? And what are you seeing in your crystal ball? Rick Laferriere: That's the really interesting part of our jobs. Our team has to be equally focused, both internally and externally. Internally in that we need to work with our internal leaders to understand what their needs are for talent and what is coming down the road. We're a healthcare company, so obviously, things are changing almost daily in the healthcare space, in terms of healthcare delivery, in terms of the types of care or the types of services we can provide the community, things such as vaccinations or primary care that are that are coming a little bit closer to outlets like ours. That's a whole new frontier for us as a company, we've traditionally been in the healthcare space, had pharmacists and pharmacy technicians and, to some degree, nurses, and now we're looking at expanding into the primary care space and more broadly, into nursing. And we are serving, you know, the Medicare population, with Medical Assistants and with doctors and so all of these things are fascinating. They make our jobs very, very interesting, and we have to have some understanding of how folks get into those roles, get licensed or get the skills they need to do those jobs. And obviously, for doctors and pharmacists, it's years of schooling for pharmacy technicians or for medical assistants or, to some degree, nurses, that doesn't require that amount of schooling or professional certification. And so we tend to kind of look in those areas there, and we'll talk to our internal folks and say, what are the positions you're looking for now, where are we going with this down the road? So we can, as a team, get in front of our community stakeholders such as education and community colleges and adult ed and say this is what's coming. So if you build training for this, it will be job driven training. It will be training that leads to a real job that is coming now, that's coming down the road, that's, that's now, that's that that will, that will sustain long into the future. And of course, in the healthcare space, like that's everybody's questions all day. How is artificial intelligence gonna impact all of this? And I'm not sure we know yet. Yeah, it's, it's, it's very interesting, but it's out there. And so these are the conversations we have to have internally, which is, tell us your talent needs, tell us where you're seeing gaps. I'll give you another quick example. Actually, internally, some of the conversations we're having with our retail leaders is around pharmacists. They see down the road a shortage of pharmacists coming because young students in high schools are not going into pharmacy schools at the rate they were going into pharmacy schools 10 years ago. And so they're already sounding the alarm and asking us and our team to get involved at the high school level exposing students to pharmacy that can be something as simple as having some classes or curriculum on pharmacy or pharmacy technician, or giving students a work based learning opportunity while they're in school, but those are some of the nuances of our work, where you wouldn't think we're recruiting pharmacists as a team from the workforce system, but we do have a place in ensuring that We're helping to cultivate talent in some way, shape or form. So all of these conversations happening internally, big challenge for our team now externally, we've got to take everything we just learned from our partners internally and go externally and go, This is what we see coming. This is what's happening, and largely the workforce, system, community providers, they'll have a sense for that, but when they hear it from the employer, that validates that thinking, it really validates the hey as a workforce system, broadly, we've got to go down this path. We've got it. We've got to get more focused on health care. You know, certainly here in New England and in Massachusetts, where I am, you know, healthcare is a big focus, because we have large, you know, regional healthcare systems that are constantly in need of talent. So largely community partners and educators know that here, but they may not know, hey, medical assisting is going to be huge in three years. Hey, you know, we're going to have a need for pharmacy technicians, because they're going to be operating, they're going to be operating closer to the, what we call the top of their license, which is, they may be doing immunizations, which is not something pharmacy techs have traditionally done, but a certain, you know, state board of pharmacy allows it. Yeah, we're going to do that. We want to notify our partners of that, because what we do as a team has a long tail. It takes time. It takes time to build programming. It takes time... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/38896020

Van Ton-Quinlivan: Scaling Allied Health Workforce Solutions 10/20/2025

Van Ton-Quinlivan: Scaling Allied Health Workforce Solutions Van Ton-Quinlivan, CEO of Futuro Health, discusses her approach to addressing the shortage of critical allied health workers — the 65% of the healthcare workforce including medical assistants, phlebotomists, and technicians. Drawing from her experience leading California's Community College system and founding Futuro Health in 2020, Ton-Quinlivan explains how her organization has trained over 10,000 adults through a debt-free model that integrates 40 education partners with data-driven coaching and wraparound support. The conversation examines broader lessons about adult learner success, including why live coaching proved more valuable than debt-free education in scholar testimonials, how essential skills curriculum with digital badges builds confidence for adults re-entering education, and why scaling such a model required building an ecosystem rather than becoming an accredited institution. Ton-Quinlivan emphasizes that workforce development requires staying the course with aligned money, metrics, and data to embed innovation into organizational DNA. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our workforces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Welcome back. You know Julian, our conversations on the podcast and in our consulting work are often about tackling workforce development challenges at scale. It's challenging just to design and implement effective workforce development initiatives, let alone scale them. Julian Alssid: Absolutely Kaitlin, inevitably, these initiatives require collaboration and commitment from employers, educators, public sector leaders, community partners, and learners alike. Needless to say, this is a tall order to pull off in a single community or region, and exponentially more complex when we talk about working across regions. Kaitlin LeMoine: And our guest today has a unique perspective on how to go about making this complex work happen with a career that spans the private, public and nonprofit sectors. She's gone from leading a massive higher education system to founding a nimble, innovative startup in 2020 that has since trained and supported over 10,000 adults across the US as they completed credentials and qualifications for Allied Health careers. Her work is a powerful example of how to effectively prepare untapped talent for career success. Julian Alssid: Our guest is the legendary Van Ton-Quinlivan, chief executive officer of Futuro Health. I joke. I've known Van for many years, and she really has been a true standout in the field. And she's a nationally recognized leader in workforce development. She was formerly executive chancellor of the California Community Colleges and currently serves as an appointee to the California Health Workforce Education and Training Council. She's the author of Workforce RX and host of a podcast by the same name, promoting agile, multicultural solutions for employers, educators, and workers. Van has been named one of the top 50 women leaders in healthcare, and she holds an MBA and a master's in education policy from Stanford University. We are so excited to have you on the podcast, Van, and thanks so much for joining us. Van Ton-Quinlivan: Oh, I'm so delighted to be here, Julian and Kaitlin, to be amongst leaders who are also thinking and trying to solve big problems in the area of education and workforce development. Kaitlin LeMoine: We really appreciate you joining us for this conversation today, and look forward to kicking it off with hearing a little bit more about your background and what led you to your current work. Julian gave a bit of a bio there, but would love to hear more from you. Van Ton-Quinlivan: You know my expertise in workforce development. I got my chops doing it in the private sector with a company of 20,000 men and women, where I brought them from having no opinion in workforce development to being an industry recognized national, national best practice. And then I went into the higher education system with the California Community College driving the workforce mission where, you know, I started in sort of the worst of days where we had about 100 million made available for career technical education program, and by the time that I serve, finished my two terms, it went from 100 million to 200 million, to 700 million to over a billion dollars. And so faced a big quandary when, when I was approached by Kaiser Permanente and its partners after stepping off from the community colleges, they said, geez, for two years, we've been wrestling with how to grow the next generation of allied health workers. And allied refers to the 65% of the healthcare workforce that we know we all need those volumes in our backyard. So you know, they're the emergency medical technicians that come when we have an accident, the medical assistant that checks you in, or the x-ray tech or the lab tech. So a lot of the technicians that are trained through credentials and less than a four year degree, they are the allied health workers. And right now you know, 75% of healthcare facilities report that they have workforce pains in this area. So when Kaiser Permanente and their partners approached me, I had to look in the mirror and really just reflect on the level of risk and how scary it is to go from running a billion dollar system to now going into a startup environment, and what if it didn't work. I think we all have these qualities when we make big career decisions. Fortunately, I had friends that reminded me of my early days, which was that, you know, I'm first generation who came from Vietnam through the war and education opportunity was made available to me, and I feel very grateful for that, and and I do feel the the role that I had with the community colleges was a pay it forward role where, and this role is also paying for the opportunity that I had to others. And so with that realization, I was able to overcome my own internal self doubt, and said, you know, really, for many of us who are on the innovation side, it's like, if it's not us, then then who? And so I'm glad to be bringing a lot of the best practices learned from the private sector, the public sector and into the nonprofit sector infant or health, to see which combinations of best practices can really get the untapped adult learners to be able to get their credentials and qualifications for that first or next healthcare career. Julian Alssid: So looking at the untapped adult worker population and allied health careers, can you speak a little more to the problems that you're seeking to solve related to that population? And really, how does the Futuro Health model work. Van Ton-Quinlivan: Right now the labor market is having its adjustments with all the federal cuts. So I'm going to put that aside for the moment, because the macro, the macro context. The bigger problem is that we have an aging nation. And when you go over age 65 for example, all of us will consume more health care, which means that you're going to need more caregivers, right? And roughly, you know, 30, 40ish years ago, there were 12 working adults available for every one person over age of 65, Today it's roughly seven. And in about, you know, a little over a decade from now, it's going to be 4. So we have a shrinking adult population that is available to get in to compete for all the roles, much less the roles that are in care. So that is sort of the macro trend, and why we should be thinking about this space as well as other spaces. Now, when it comes to the individual adults themselves. You may be wondering, well, what's the problem for them? I mean, given this big need, well, we did four focus groups, including one that was in all Spanish, to learn what were the difficulties. And of course, you know, the first thing that came up was, of course, the theme of flexibility in the delivery, right? The second was, aside from cost, is the navigation, the navigation. So even if you knew you wanted to become a medical assistant, the path to go from here to there was not obvious. And so the noisiest of the options tended to be your private, proprietary option, which then led to the problem of three, which is even for those in the focus group who made it into healthcare careers at these entry level steps, they were so laden by debt, they were just stuck at the bottom rung. So we had considered all of that in the mix in order to create a path to getting credentials and qualification. Because you know, both of you know that healthcare is one industry that if you don't even have the qualifications, you can't even get the interview, right. It's highly credentialed compared to other industries. So that was sort of a good problem space to figure out how to apply the best practices of workforce development and see if we can design a way that could work for adults, or to be able to transition adults into the qualification and credentials they needed. Kaitlin LeMoine: I'm just curious to learn a little bit more. It seems like you have a heavily networked approach in this work. How do you go about building out this model with your many partners? Van Ton-Quinlivan: Workforce development is a team sport, not an individual sport. So it's like, how do you wrap the ecosystem into and fold the ecosystem in a way that, you know, everybody can do what they do best? So when we initially started, you know, many of the healthcare employers, of course, this sort of happened right at the beginning of the pandemic, their impression was, nobody wants to get into healthcare, right? People were not interested in healthcare, so we activated a set of partners and provided them tools that were heavily tied into the data science, our data science acumen to go out and scout and recruit, to take advantage of healthcare workers, to scout and recruit communities, friends and family networks. And it turned out that it was absolutely a myth that people were not interested in healthcare roles. They were interested, they just couldn't figure out how to navigate through. And so we even during the pandemic, when enrollment was declining, I know at the California Community Colleges, it was as severe as like, 20% decline in enrollment. Year upon year, we were able to hit all of our enrollment numbers to bring adults back in. So, you know, it's the gal who is the security guard in the hospital. She's one of our Scholars. So she became a Futuro Health Scholar after taking care of her mother, who had cancer, and coming to the realization that she potentially could be a caregiver and like to be in service of others. And then she found a Futuro Health flier, and we were able to get her phlebotomist credential. I know she moved from security guard into a role that was in caregiving. It's really how do you break into healthcare when you're sitting on the sidelines. Julian Alssid: Putting on your pre Futuro Health hat for a moment when you were dealing with the all the workforce development of the system, interested to hear what you're learning through the development and growth of Futuro Health that can be applied across industries. We were starting with some big numbers. So for example, in California alone, the need was for 500,000 more allied health workers. To begin looking at that, it's a design problem. We had the option with the capital we were given by the health system, we had the option of becoming an accredited institution ourselves. But we said, My goodness, how are we going to solve a 500,000 person problem by growing cohorts of 25, 25, 25, 25 right? I mean, it's a scaled dilemma. So we changed the way we looked at and I said, Well, how do we begin designing at 1000, 2000, 3000 and a time in order to begin tackling this dilemma? And so our approach Julian was, let's build the ecosystem of education partners, and now we have roughly 40 education partners whom we integrate into the student experience. And so our data science tells us, and our coaching tells us what is the best match in terms of which institution, which program, is mapped to the learner. The key, though, this is the key. The key is whether the education institution has the data exchange capability with us, because most of our partners, education partners, exchange data with us on a daily basis, right? So we know, we know where the scholar is, where we needed to intervene. And because we're shepherding their entire journey, and thanks to sponsorships from employers and state agencies, you know, they're coming out debt free as a result of going through this journey. So it's really important for us to not only provide the wraparound that is the live touch throughout their entire journey, but there's the technical education program, of course, vetted, curated based on industry demand. So we have 40 education providers. And everywhere we expand, we source, and vet and integrate new education providers. And then the last part, which is really interesting, is how we have leveraged an essential skills slash soft skill curriculum as the way to effectively onboard adults. And this is interesting itself. We had tried onboarding adults, because before we unlocked the full scholarship, which is fairly expensive to us, could they take two academic courses, like anatomy or physiology, for example. It turns out that that didn't actually predict their success so much as they're confident, building their confidence to re enter education. And so that's, that's one area we're super proud that we unlocked some some experimentation and it has worked. Kaitlin LeMoine: So building on that last example, actually, Van, I'm curious taking a step back on this. I mean you're drawing from many years in this field, and many experiences across public, private sector, given what we're seeing, you know, with respect to economic shifts and technological shifts, and you know, thinking about how we best support learning for adults, what do you believe? Or what are you seeing in some of the best practices around how we support learning in this in the context of a skills based economy where there's just so much shift and change happening. Van Ton-Quinlivan: I know you've had speakers talk about the skills based economy and the importance of credentials, and I'm just going to translate it to what we have experienced with our Futuro Health Scholars. And these are 1000s and 1000s of them, right? And what's so interesting is, even though they have gone through the Futuro Health experience debt free, they never talk about, oh, thank you, thank you so much for for you know, the that we came through debt free, they actually talk about those moments when they were going to stop, those moments they were going to quit, those moments that were really hard, and it was the live coaching that carried them through those moments of hardship. So when it comes to the question, for example, should AI replace coaching? We have so far decided that our population that we're working with, and it's 90% culturally diverse, with about roughly 50% linguistic diversity, very important for healthcare, because it begets trust. We have decided that the live coaching that is essential for the learners right now, so the AI, your applications of AI, improvement on the data can all be on the back end, but that is what the Scholars have valued way more than other things that we thought would be more important. The other thing Kaitlin that we saw was, you know, we have this unique curriculum called Human Touch Healthcare, which is focused. I mentioned that focus on the essential skills and soft skills, and they're all instructed by seasoned healthcare workers who can put it into context. And as they finish each of those modules, you know, they earn a badge, a digital badge, and the pride in which these adults take in being able to post these badges and have the acknowledgement it may be that the positive reinforcement is very critical to building the confidence of many adults who are sitting on the sidelines of learning right now. So I think in the broader context, as we think about the shrinking K 12, and where do we find and how do we tap into adults that maybe not participating or we need to upskill them, the success coaching, making the journey simpler, of course, figuring out the costs, but also, like, how do you, how do you continue to have the positive reinforcement throughout? I mean, these, these are not, these are not things that have been sufficiently designed into traditional education systems, but it helps us all. Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely right? Those interim milestones of success, right, that don't just come when you finish the course, but like those moments along the way that provide that continual what you're saying, positive reinforcement and the acknowledgement, like, yes, you have done this, keep going. Van Ton-Quinlivan: I can is really important. I mean, most of us waited until the earning of our degree in order to get that reinforcement, but right? I think when we're dealing with these, the non-traditional learners that are now becoming more standard, we just have to rethink how we structure their experience. Julian Alssid: Well, and you're sort of leading right into what I was thinking, which is, as we watch this world unfold economically and demographically, and in terms of education, and what that means, and the choices folks are making about how to advance their education and careers, what do you see as the as the biggest challenges, both in healthcare and even beyond, for the, you know, for the people who are this band of partners that are coming together to try to, you know, advance, help people advance their careers and grow the economy. Van Ton-Quinlivan: You know Julian, I wonder if you see that we're going to need to be more fluid with our education processes and systems because of how many different ways people are tapping into education, and yet we want them. We know that, Jeff Strohl over there, just issued a report called Falling Behind: How Skills Shortages Threaten Future Jobs, and he says that there's going to be a need to add additional 5.25 million workers with post secondary credentials, of which 4.5 million is a bachelors and above, and this is during the time period of 2024 to 2032. The bachelor's and above is getting very, very expensive these days, right? And then there's a lot of skepticism. So how we get people to partake in the education process and how to convert it over to the degree pathway, is super important. So you know, the prior learning credit, all the transcripting that your guests are talking about. The hard barriers between education and who provides it is likely going to soften over the future. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and yeah, you said, it also makes me think about even, like, the technical systems behind how this happens, right? Like, how do we make sure that we have the back end software and ability to say, Okay? Like, how do we make this credential portable? How do we know that we know what it means here will mean the same thing somewhere else, right? I mean, there's just so much at play there around making, I guess, the... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/38640625

Audrey Patenaude: Navigating Early Career Hiring in the AI Era 10/07/2025

Audrey Patenaude: Navigating Early Career Hiring in the AI Era Audrey Patenaude, CEO of RippleMatch, discusses the rapidly evolving landscape of early career recruiting in the age of AI and how the RippleMatch recruitment automation platform is transforming the hiring process for both employers and emerging talent. Drawing from her background scaling AI companies, Patenaude explores the challenging reality documented in recent research: fewer entry-level roles are available due to AI automation, while demand rises for "entry plus" candidates with verified AI fluency and strong power skills like critical thinking, adaptability, and communication. She explains how RippleMatch addresses the application overload problem—where candidates submit over 300 applications to land one role—by using skills-based matching to connect qualified candidates with employers, saving hiring teams 70% of resume review time while giving candidates a 20x better chance of getting interviews. The conversation delves into practical strategies for recent graduates to build portfolios of AI projects and document real-world experience, and for employers to create "AI centers of excellence" within their recruiting teams. Patenaude also discusses the shifting definition of entry-level work, the rising importance of interview readiness and communication skills, and why career preparation increasingly needs to begin in middle school to help students navigate this new paradigm where AI skills are becoming as fundamental as internet literacy. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in the higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort, please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. At the intersection of work and learning right now, there's a confluence of challenges for employers and employees alike at all stages of the application and hiring process. In particular, we're seeing an increasing impact on early career professionals, as documented in the recent Burning Glass Institute report, "No Country for New Grads", and the "Stanford Digital Economy Lab paper, "Canaries in the Coal Mine: Six Facts About the Recent Employment Effects of Artificial Intelligence". There are fewer jobs available for early career graduates due to the impact of generative AI, which can accomplish many of the job activities previously done by early career professionals. Julian Alssid: Absolutely Kaitlin. And alongside this complexity, AI has also shifted how prospective employees look for and apply for new roles, and how companies go about recruiting and hiring talent. Just last season, we talked with Sean VanDerziel, President and CEO of the National Association of Colleges and Employers, about how employers are using AI for screening resumes, but also how the use of AI by job seekers to generate thousands of resumes is leading some employers to return to in-campus recruiting to find, you know, quote, legitimate candidates. Kaitlin LeMoine: And then there's also the impact of AI on the very tech platforms and tools that HR talent development and career services teams use to support their own recruitment and hiring efforts. Needless to say, we're facing a complex set of circumstances, and it seems like just the right moment to speak with someone working on this set of challenges every day. Julian Alssid: Which brings us to today's guest, Audrey Patenaude is the CEO of RippleMatch, a recruitment automation platform that seeks to transform how emerging talent connects with opportunity in the age of AI before joining RippleMatch, Audrey spent much of her career in the AI space and helped teams scale through rapid growth and innovation. At RippleMatch, she's focused on building a platform that levels the playing field for candidates while helping employers discover and hire the next generation of AI skilled leaders. Welcome to Work Forces. Audrey. Audrey Patenaude: Yes, thank you. Julian Kaitlin, thank you for having me today. Excited to be here. Kaitlin LeMoine: We're excited to have you with us, Audrey. So, as we kick off today, can you please tell us a bit more about your background and what led you to your role at RippleMatch? Audrey Patenaude: I'll start with a little bit about my journey and why I really connected to RippleMatch's vision. I'm originally from Quebec City, a very charming but very cold part of Canada. And over there, I studied business and marketing in college, but when I got out of school, there were not a lot of marketing jobs in Quebec City, especially this was before remote work, and there were not a lot of tech companies with offices over there. So after college, I had to work some marketing jobs for small local companies for a while, until this one job opened at an AI company that had offices both in Canada and the US. And I remember at the time, all my friends whom I graduated from college with were all fighting for this one exciting job that we had in our, you know, in our backyard, and I got lucky enough to get it, and I think that this gave me some perspective on how the right opportunity can really change the course of your life, if you're lucky enough to, you know, be at the right place, at The right time and get noticed. So years later, I moved to New York, and that AI company grew a lot, and we went through an IPO, and I got very lucky along the way to be supported by amazing leaders and mentors and learn in that fast growing environment with a lot of innovation, and then got the chance to move to the city that I love and now consider home. So when came time for my next chapter, I met with the team at RippleMatch, and I immediately saw how, you know, to me, this platform felt like a way to push some of that luck forward, to help other candidates like me land jobs that could change their lives and open up so many doors for them, so it's really a motivating mission for me to work on every day and get to see the real life impact of it for candidates in the world and employers alike. Julian Alssid: Audrey, speak to us a bit about what are the problems that RippleMatch is trying to solve for those employers and candidates and universities alike. Audrey Patenaude: You touched on it a little bit earlier. But RippleMatch is the marketplace for AI, skilled emerging talent. What that means, or where that talent is, is folks early in their career that know how to leverage AI across all types of roles, and that can be really these amazing contributors that make a huge difference inside companies, and part of the reason why is because Gen Z is leading the use of AI, especially bringing their own tools to school and and work. So the problem that we are solving for employers right now we're seeing employers starting to think very differently about hiring and team design with AI, they are thinking a lot about how to design their teams in a way that will leverage AI intelligence with human intelligence working alongside each other, and what is the best way to build a team that's going to be efficient with the best tools and skills set up, and that's across, you know, go to market teams and technical teams. And in that design of the new, you know, modern team across different function, entry level is no longer seen as a training ground where employers on board a lot of super junior green talent and give them very easy but laborious tasks as they learn the ropes of the job, because, as you mentioned before, now, tasks like data entry, data enrichment and cleaning, or very basic support tickets can be or are being automated by AI. So we're seeing that instead of junior specialists, employers are looking for AI enabled generalists, for example, years ago or recently, if you were going to hire a junior marketer, you would very often look for a profile of a junior professional with very deep expertise or specialization in one part of marketing. So for example, you're looking for a HubSpot expert. Now that profile is changing to looking for someone that has amazing power skills, so someone who's really resourceful, has critical thinking, is going to be very adaptable and very collaborative and with AI and being able to leverage AI tools that deep specialization in one tool is not as critical or as valuable anymore, because you can use AI to figure things out, to build workflows amongst multiple tools, and you're going to innovate much faster and be able to contribute a lot more than that previous profile of a very kind of niche set of expertise. So yeah, employers are looking for these candidates with AI skills who can contribute and innovate quickly, and at the same time, power skills are becoming even more important because AI is automating some of these hard skills. So the net here for employers, and where the challenge comes is that the bar for entry level talent is rising, but at the same time, inbound volume and noise is up more than ever with AI, as you were saying, allowing candidates to send out a lot of resumes or to use ChatGPT to produce a cover letter or resume. The challenge that we help with is helping employers find top talent that's ready for today's workforce by connecting them with candidates that have verified AI skills, power skills, and technical skills. So basically getting them straight to the right talent with the right assessed skills, so that they can spend more time reviewing and interviewing and qualifying these top candidates. Kaitlin LeMoine: So what does it look like to do that? Because, like you said, this is such a complex moment where employers are inundated with applications like, how does your platform work to help verify the skills that job seekers have? Audrey Patenaude: The way it works is that we replace that application overload and traditional resumes that you would get on a traditional job board with skills-based matching so employers enter the criteria that they're looking for in terms of not just background in education, but also the skills that they want for this role, in terms of AI skills and AI fluency, but also power skills and technical skills, and they get matched with candidates who have verified these skills through courses and assessments. So we know that they know how to use these tools, that they are good communicators, because they've taken these assessments that they can showcase on their profile, and they apply to the jobs that they are qualified for through our platform, which is really for them, a guided experience to find their path in this market and to build and showcase the skills that will get them hired. So it's a little bit like the dating app that you need to find the job in this AI-disrupted market that just cuts out all of the noise on both sides. Julian Alssid: Given that then, as we kind of move to this more skills focused marketplace, how, what are some of the successes, and then, what are some of the challenges that you're, you know, you're experiencing with both, again, both the employers and we're interested also in from the employee side as well. Audrey Patenaude: Obviously, it's a tough market for students. AI is automating entry level work, as you touched on, and I think there's generally a more conservative and cautious ethos around hiring in most industries. So it's a bit of an overwhelming job market for them, where the major that you studied in may not perfectly translate into the kind of jobs that will be available to them today and tomorrow, and with all that uncertainty, the reflex is obviously to send out as many job applications as possible, and our latest survey data shows that candidates were submitting over 300 applications on traditional job platforms in order to land one role. So that's obviously a lot of work and overwhelming for candidates, but also for employers. So what we're doing is really helping them build that skills and personality profile, when they can really showcase what they can do and who they are, instead of being one more resume in a sea of thousands and thousands. Kaitlin LeMoine: And how about on the employer side? What are some of the successes and challenges you're seeing there, as you know, build out this platform? Audrey Patenaude: For employers, I think one of the challenges is on leveraging AI in their own internal workflow can sometimes be a bit of a challenge depending on the industry or the size of the company. You know, in our case, AI doesn't impact matching or decision making from employers on on candidates, so it's never an issue when teams actually look into but it's something where just the word AI can sometimes make some IT teams a little nervous, or it can make also recruiters or TA professional nervous in terms of how much is it going to change my work? Do I want it to change? And we really encourage recruiters to see AI as a co-pilot that helps them to do more of that busy work that can just be sped up and automated, but that they are in the driver's seat and they are making the decision it's just allowing them to spend more quality time with the best candidates. But in terms of successes, it's been really amazing to see how transformative this better way of connecting employers and candidates can be on both sides, because, as I was saying, our you know, matching connects only qualified matches on both sides together. We're able to save our employer partners around 70% of the time that we didn't normally spend on resume review, because there's none of the you know, unqualified noise coming in. It's only basically a pipeline of qualified candidates. So that's been pretty transformative, especially in today's market where ta teams are slimmer, there's less budget, there's less resources. So that time saving has been really, really huge, and for candidates, we're giving them a 20 times better chance of getting an interview than if they were to submit an application on traditional job boards, which is also really encouraging and much better for them. It's really great to hear from candidates who write to us after they got a job to thank us for how transformative this was for them in the job search, and how reassuring it was to finally hear back from companies instead of being ghosted. Julian Alssid: Well, it's, it's so interesting though, Audrey, because you're, you're sort of helping then to cut down on the noise and improve efficiency in this process. And but if what you said earlier rings true and is an ongoing pattern this, and we've been seeing this for years, although with AI now, the acceleration is just massive. Is the rising skill demand for entry level? And I'm almost wondering, like, is there going to be an entry level anymore? Like, what is, you know? Is there really, you know? So you're making this more efficient. You're helping employers, in a way, hire fewer people, but with much more precision. Is this a blip, or is this, you know, where? Where do you see this coming? A little prognosticating. Audrey Patenaude: To what I was saying earlier. I think that the profile of what it means to be entry level talent and the demand for it is going to change. We're calling this new type of entry level roles, entry plus, where you're not, you know, expected to come in, and, as I said, like, take a long time to ramp and contribute, because you have to learn very basic skills or do your junior work for a while. You're expected to come in, and, you know, be able to use AI to ramp up really fast, and to start innovating really fast, and to learn new tools really fast. So I think that we're looking at a profile where there may be a little less roles in some industries, but that these contributors make meaningful impact really quickly, and that with the folks that will be able to use AI the best, it's going to be pretty competitive for that talent. And we're already seeing some headlines about the salaries going up for this kind of young talent. That's really AI savvy. So I do think that there's going to be a revived demand for entry level with these right AI skills, and it's also going to be potentially pretty lucrative roles for these candidates too. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, yeah, it makes me wonder too. This is kind of transitioning a little bit to the higher ed side, but I'm just curious. Like, what do you see that meaning for, like, your higher ed partners right around like, what does this mean for we're talking about the skill needs going up. So what does it mean for career services professionals and those helping rising college graduates with this process of not only finding a job but also building that skill set that you're talking about to be entry plus. Audrey Patenaude: Of course, universities and career services are, you know, working as best as they can to get their students to be job ready and market ready. I think the challenge is that what it means today is evolving very, very fast. It had already been transforming after COVID with the rise of remote work, the way that candidates would connect with opportunity was already a little bit different. It was already getting harder. I think now it is accelerating and getting even harder, because that skill bar is rising and is also changing really quickly. So we see a lot of university partners coming to us to help bridge that gap in the job search, whether for an internship or for a first job out of school, to help alleviate some of the stress and how overwhelming the job search process can be, and the guide directing them to a place where they can receive matches that they are qualified for, which gives them a higher level of confidence when they apply to these roles, that they are a right fit for them, and that they will have a higher odd of getting an interview, but then also identifying the skills that they might want to build, learn, and showcase in order to increase their odds of landing a job. So for example, it may be good for me to take a class in prompt engineering online and be able to showcase to employers that I've taken that but it's also some things as simple as interview readiness. Interview readiness is a big challenge that we hear from a lot of our partners, even before you know the rise of AI and even before the bar got higher on the skills, on the technical skill side, just knowing which candidates is ready for an interview and will have the right communication skill to succeed and to succeed in your interview process was already a big challenge. So that's both kinds of learning journeys that we want to help provide candidates to build these skills and then showcase them, and then, you know, be able to translate that into recruiter sourcing. So yeah, we have universities coming to us and just basically wanting to get us in front of their students to help ease that job search process right after they graduate. Julian Alssid: Well, and we've had numerous discussions at this point about how this process is being pushed down to younger and younger and younger students. Just thinking back to last season, Jean Eddy from American Student Assistance, talked with us about middle school is where it really has to all begin. It's too late, if it's later than that, and I'm guess, I'm wondering is it, is it too early to say or from where you sit, are you seeing that this greater emphasis on building work experience, building those skills, building the interview and... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/38441015

Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Bridging the Skills-First Gap 09/23/2025

Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Bridging the Skills-First Gap Isaac Agbeshie-Noye, Program Director for Widening Pathways to Work at the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) Foundation, addresses the critical gap between employers' intent to adopt skills-first hiring practices and actual implementation. Drawing from his background in higher education and workforce development, Agbeshie-Noye discusses the newly launched Center for a Skills First Future, designed specifically to support small and medium-sized businesses that employ half of all Americans but often lack the resources of large corporations to navigate hiring transformation. He explores the striking disconnect where 90% of employers acknowledge the benefits of skills-first hiring, yet only 15% have actively implemented it, and explains how the Center's many resources—including a Skills Action Planner, resource library, skills-first credential, and vendor database—helps employers determine an achievable place to start rather than boiling the ocean. The conversation addresses frustrations from both job seekers navigating an AI-enhanced application landscape, and employers struggling to distinguish genuine skills from enhanced resumes, while emphasizing that skills-first approaches complement rather than replace traditional degrees by treating skills as the primary currency for understanding what all credentials represent. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Kaitlin LeMoine: So our conversations on the podcast and in our consulting practice recently, increasingly revolve around the movement to a skills first approach to educating, hiring and developing talent. Julian Alssid: Absolutely Kaitlin and and today we're turning our attention to the employer side of of that equation. And this is a critical conversation for all employers, but it's particularly critical for small and medium sized companies, where half of all Americans work. These smaller companies often lack the dedicated resources of large corporations to measure and track skills development, and it makes it challenging for them to adapt to new hiring models. Kaitlin LeMoine: That's right. And while skills are all the buzz, there can be a real gap between intent and action. According to the Society for Human Resource Management, or SHRM Foundation, 90% of employers acknowledge the benefits of skills-first hiring, but only 15% have actively implemented it. That's a striking gap, and many HR leaders and executives recognize its strategic value, but struggle to implement significant changes. Julian Alssid: Our guest today is uniquely positioned to address this challenge with a particular focus on helping small and medium sized employers unlock a wider range of qualified candidates by valuing a candidate's abilities and understanding how skills relate to traditional credentials. Kaitlin LeMoine: Isaac Agbeshie-Noye is Program Director for Widening Pathways to Work at the SHRM Foundation. Over the last decade, he's served in a variety of leadership roles across nonprofit organizations and higher education institutions, and focused on aligning strategy, culture, and operations to create lasting transformation. He's also been an instructor for undergraduate and doctoral student seminars, exploring his passion for easing student transitions through their educational experiences. Isaac earned his bachelor's degree in sociology from the University of Virginia, as well as masters and doctoral degrees in higher education administration from George Washington University. Isaac, welcome to this podcast. We're so excited to have you on Work Forces with us today. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Julian Alssid: Yes, and thank you for joining us, Isaac. We've talked a little bit about your background. Well, tell us a bit more and what led you to your role at the SHRM Foundation. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: I got here in part because I'm always very fascinated and very passionate about education and how people go about learning things that then activates them to do things. And so working in higher education, and encountering all of these college students that came in at 18, 19, 20, 21 years old with some understanding of the things that they thought that they were going to do for the rest of their lives, that was just really fascinating to me. And then seeing the evolution over time where their mind changed around that thing, that was also fascinating. I ended up getting into workforce development and talent cultivation, because I realized that it wasn't just enough to understand what they were learning when they were on the college campus, I was really intrigued by then what did they do? Like, where did they go? Where did they end up? How did they navigate their careers after they left that environment? And so that kind of helped me think more broadly, beyond getting people to degree attainment to getting them actually to career mobility and to ultimately, a productive citizenry, which is what, which is what the mission of higher education is actually designed to be. And so I got connected to the SHRM Foundation in part because I just have been really fascinated with, how do we get employers into the game even further to understand their role and to help them as they are trying to tap into this workforce that is filled with skills, but yet we're not matching people in ways that are quick, even though we can see some of the ways in which there might be alignment. And so this position is is actually structured to help try and address that, that gap. Kaitlin LeMoine: As we jump into this conversation, we'd love to learn a little bit more about the SHRM Foundation and your role in widening pathways to work. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: The SHRM Foundation is the 501(c)(3) nonprofit arm of the Society for Human Resource Management. And the Society for Human Resource Management is the largest network of HR professionals in the world. And so we have 340,000 members that are then deployed and activated into all types of businesses around the world. And so we believe that we can leverage HR and leverage those professionals to advance social good, which is how the foundation came to be. And so in the foundation, we focus on three bodies of work: strengthening the HR field, because we don't often think about who's going to come behind the current HR folks, and who is actually going to take on the new challenges related to HR, and how are we positioning those folks to be successful in that, and so we have a body of work that's focused there. We have a body of work that's focused on thriving together, and how are we creating cultures of care within employers and employer environments. And so how are we focusing on things like the social determinants of health, about or caregiving or workplace mental health, the types of things that make people feel seen and safe at work in order to continue to be there. And then the third part is my area, which is the widening pathways to work area which is focused on skills first, and the things that we do to help employers adopt skills first approaches. How do we test things, try things out so that we are reducing the risk as best we can for people to adopt initiatives that are going to help talent be seen better. And then the other part of that is untapped pools of talent. So who are we not seeing and how can we create opportunities to see them better and also to get them fully activated in this world of work. And so the SHRM Foundation does all of that, and our goal is to try and figure out where are, what's the messaging, what are the levers, where, who are the partners that we need to bring together to actually make this ecosystem work for job seekers and employers at the same time. Julian Alssid: Tell us a bit more about your area, Widening Pathways to Work. And in particular, we're really interested in hearing about the new Center for a Skills First Future. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: What's so exciting about that portfolio is that we're really trying to figure out what are the things that are getting in the way, and how can we start to solution around those things? And so we know that there are 7.3 million open jobs, and we are highly dissatisfied with that, because it's not because there's a shortage of talent. There's just a shortage of alignment. There isn't those connections and those systems that we're leveraging to make talent visible so that employers can make hiring decisions that make the most sense for them are, to some degree working, and in a lot of ways not working, and that is resulting in a lot of job seekers being incredibly frustrated, and employers also being dissatisfied with what they're getting. And in an age of AI, where we do have some functions that are being shifted based on technology, and we have job seekers leveraging AI to try and make themselves look more visible and competitive, we're in this environment where we have to be having this conversation about how we get these different sides to see each other. So that is what's exciting about the Widening Pathways work, because we are going to have to be considerate of all the things that are happening socially if we're going to make these pathways wider for everybody to walk through them. The Center for a Skills First Future we just launched that in June. We're really excited about that, because this is our try to help meet employers where they are, and that type of work is critical. You've mentioned before about our specific focus on small and mid sized businesses. This is intentional, because for large and enterprise businesses where you are well resourced to try a lot of things. And, you know, figuratively, throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall. You can try a lot of things to see what works. And then you can invest, or make investments based on what you think is working. And you have teams to support that you have, quite frankly, you have teams. To try a lot of different things. For our small and mid sized businesses, they don't, do not have that luxury as much. It's usually a team of one or a team of two that are driving all of the initiatives related to human capital in the organization. And so you can't, you know, it's hard to be thinking about managing benefits and also recruitment, and also employee grievances, and also onboarding and off boarding. And so what we were trying to do is to figure out, how can we put a series of tools at someone's fingertips and let them choose their own adventure? And so that's what the Center really tries to do. So we have four major components of it, where we are trying to take resources and make them most accessible. We have a Skills Action Planner, so any organization can go in and just knowing what's going on at the organization, you can take this assessment, which will give you a readout of your current state and where you are in terms of adoption of skills first practices, and also it maps out for you your desired state based on what you said that you would like to be. And we just then curate a list of resources to help you get from point A to point B. And so we try to remind people, this is this is the time to be ambitious, but we don't have to boil the ocean. So you get overwhelmed when you think about all of the skills first things that you could do. We try to normalize for folks, but it's okay to just do one thing. Just, let's just try that one thing and see how that goes. So whether it is removing degree credentials from a job description, or maybe it's leaning into behavior based hiring, whatever you choose that makes the most sense for where your organization is, we'll give you some tools to at least try and get that momentum going. We have a Skills First credential. It's a one of a kind credential. So for folks that are trying to learn more about what it means to navigate this space and how to navigate some of the barriers you may be running into in your organization, there's a space for you to learn and deepen your skill set so you can help bring others in your organization along, which is really exciting. We have a resource library where we are amassing all of the things scholarly and practically, that have been sourced around this movement, and having it all in one place so that you can search for it however you need to and get access to it. And then for folks that are further along than know this is what I want to do. I just need a vendor, or I need a partner to help me. We have a vendor database where people can go in and just access those professional services that they need to get something off the ground to move closer to implementation. And so we created this hub with the support of 14 coalition partners to really figure out, What do employers need, and how can we make those tools most accessible to them? We're acknowledging we are operating in this space because we have the connections to employers. We're not the only people operating in this space, and everybody has a different lane that they're working in some folks focus on talent. Some folks are focusing on employers. Some are focused on community based organizations. Some are focused on policy. But we all have to be in a conversation together about this, because the ripple effect impact all of us, and so it's great to also have brought together this coalition to be having these conversations together, and so we're excited about the center, and we're excited about how it can hopefully help accelerate adoption for as many people as possible, regardless of how your organization is structured or where you are on your skills first journey. Kaitlin LeMoine: So Isaac, given that you know, this was developed with a coalition of employers, really at the table to help inform. I'm curious to hear a little bit more. What are some of the most pressing challenges you're hearing from employers? Like, what's the perspective of, I know you said, you know, maybe just start with one thing, right? Like, maybe it's hard to take on this whole skills-first bucket of work. But I'm just curious to know, you know, what are some of the perspectives you're hearing from employers and from job seekers in this new, relatively new skills first environment that we're operating in? Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: I'll start with the job seekers. I think that the process is frustrating. This is a tough job market to be in right now, and I say that not only is someone working to widen some of those pathways, but also as somebody that had to navigate that job market. And so I'm three months into this role, and so I also was on the job seeking side, trying to figure out how I get my skills recognized and validated, and this is a hard environment to do that, particularly. When folks are also leveraging AI to make enhancements to their candidate materials, like your resume, your cover letter. And so we're finding that a lot of things because of that look the same. So it becomes really hard for employers to distinguish who has done what. And so that is a very frustrating experience for job seekers to be in, where you want to be actively participating in work, but because of the scale and the size of the job market right now, it's just really hard to stand out on the employer side. We hear a lot about there's a lot of intent, as you mentioned earlier. You know 90% of employers want to be leaning into these skills first approaches. Only 15% have actually done things that's because operationalizing a big idea is hard, and change is harder, especially when you have developed a tradition around certain types of practices that you feel like makes it easier. Like before, a degree was a signifier for you that somebody had some skill or proficiency that you wanted, and you could then filter people out by that. Now we're seeing degrees are not the only place that are telling those stories. Experiences tell us that, skills tell us that, competencies tell us that. And so how do we create an environment where employers can see all of that and then know what to do with it, because it's just so much, and in that environment, not all things operate the same or are created equal? Not all credentials are the same, not all degrees are created equal. So for a hiring manager that's just trying to understand, can this person do what I need? There are so many things to consider to try and get to that answer, and we're then finding people are going through that process of getting through that to that answer, and finding out that that you know, there's more upskilling that's needed, or there are additional supports that are needed in order for that employee to contribute and actively participate. So there's just so many things going on here for employers and for job seekers at the same time, and because there are very few mechanisms for those populations, those audiences, to be talking to each other, that's just harboring more frustration right with the process, because people are not really communicating, and also people are existing with all of these challenges that seem insurmountable to try to fix. So what we're trying to do, at least on the employer side, is make it more digestible, to make it step by step, for us to start thinking about, oh, well, have you considered this? Let's just try this first, and let's see what we're learning from this. Let's understand what success looks like when it comes to this. And one other thing that I'd like to add is, I do want to emphasize, we have chartered this Center for a Skills First Future, and sometimes there's some confusion around what Skills First actually means. And so we are trying to figure out that many different ways that people can be visible to employers and employers can recognize and validate certain skills, but we're not saying that this is a complete replacement for the bachelor's degree, and so we're not working in competition with degrees. We're trying to figure out and get clearer about the ways that degrees also convey a certain set of skills. And so we're trying to treat skills as the primary currency here for us to even understand what degrees tell us when they come across or when applications come in. And so that is one misconception that I'm hoping to clarify, is that we are not trying to campaign against degrees. We're not saying degrees are not valuable. They obviously have a lot of value, but the underlying thing around a degree, a degree is supposed to signify skills and abilities and competencies, and so we're trying to figure out, how do we get closer to that, so that whether you have a degree or not, you can still be seen and can actively participate in this job market and contribute to the workforce. Kaitlin LeMoine: Right. And so that everyone is communicating their skills regardless of what degree or credential has been attained. It's about this is the important thing for everyone. Yep. A lot of sense, yep. Julian Alssid: Right. And it brings us back to that interplay between work and learning and education. And again, it's complicated. We can't separate these all out artificially. Isaac Agbeshie-Noye: Yeah, they're all in... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/38310425

Joe E. Ross: Pioneering the Apprenticeship Degree Model 09/09/2025

Joe E. Ross: Pioneering the Apprenticeship Degree Model Joe E. Ross, President, CEO and co-founder of Reach University and the National Center for the Apprenticeship Degree, discusses Reach University's "apprenticeship degree" model that turns jobs into degrees rather than the traditional approach of obtaining a job post-graduation. The conversation explores Reach's approach to addressing the "hiding in plain sight" talent crisis by serving the 40-50 million Americans in the workforce without degrees who wish they had them. Ross outlines Reach's three ABCs framework: Affordability, Based in the workplace from day one to graduation, and Credit for learning at work. He shares compelling outcomes from Reach's growth from 67 candidates to over 3,000 across eight states, with 70% graduation rates for Pell-eligible students compared to the typical 40-50%. Ross also discusses the National Center for the Apprenticeship Degree's work with 50 institutions across a dozen states, and offers practical steps for listeners interested in getting involved with apprenticeship degrees. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the Work Forces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Julian Alssid: Welcome back today. We're diving deep into a topic that's central to our work, the evolution of higher education to better serve the modern workforce. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, we are Julian. We've talked a lot about the need for new models, especially those that bridge the gap between learning and earning. So many of our conversations have pointed to the power of apprenticeships and skills based pathways, including our past podcast discussions with Bob Lehrman and John Colborn on the evolution of apprenticeships and the opportunities they afford learners and employers alike. Julian Alssid: That's right. Kaitlan and as we discussed with Bob and John, the apprenticeship movement has been gaining momentum in recent years. Just in August 2025 the Trump administration issued a talent strategy report that calls for the expansion of Federal Registered Apprenticeships, including promoting stronger connections to universities and colleges. Our guest today is at the forefront of this movement, pioneering a groundbreaking model that's reshaping what a degree can look like, the apprenticeship degree. In fact, the apprenticeship degree was called out in the Feds report as a key part of the new apprenticeship initiative. And so today, we'll be discussing this and more with Joe E Ross, President, CEO and co founder of Reach University and the National Center for the apprenticeship degree. Kaitlin LeMoine: Before building Reach, Joe served as president of the statewide association for county school boards in California, and served for 10 years as a locally elected school board member. He previously served as general counsel to a venture studio in several technology startups, and as a deputy district attorney, he acted as sole counsel in numerous hearings and jury trials. Earlier in his career, he served eight years on active duty in the US Navy. The son of a US Postal Service labor custodian, Joe went on to earn degrees from Yale and Stanford Law School. And Joe, we're excited to welcome you to the podcast with us today. Thanks so much for joining us here. Joe E. Ross: Kaitlin, Julian, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Julian Alssid: Yes, indeed, it is a pleasure to have you, and if you will, you know, we've said a little bit about your background, but we'd love to hear you tell us a little bit more, and the story of what led you to co found Reach. Joe E. Ross: Yeah, sure. So first off, I must offer the disclaimer, I never imagined that I would be a college president growing up. That's not the thing that was on my bucket list, among many things, but I do think I, very early on, acquired a conviction that education is the way you build your own future, I think of it as the pen that you need to have in your hand to write your own future. As you mentioned, my biological father worked for the post office as a labor custodian (that means janitor), and my mom died kind of young, and he was injured in an accident. And I was raised starting at age four by my aunt and uncle, and I think in moving into that new household, in my little head, I must have noticed that these adults had careers and they had degrees and they had power over their lives. And I think in my little head, I thought, I want all three of those things, and I got it into my head that education was my way to those things. That's the only thing I can point to as an explanation for why I was such a nerd in school and so motivated in school, and also why later, after trying all sorts of other things with that pen to my hand, I was a Navy officer, I was a prosecutor, I was an ed tech entrepreneur, I always tacked back to education as where my passion was, and so about 15 years ago, I started running an after school program that sought to turn after school staff into teachers, and that was essentially a job embedded, apprenticeship based program, the first of its kind. And I saw this, this potential of combining work with higher ed. And so fast forward to the fall of 2020, Reach University launched as it's in its current form as an accredited nonprofit institution with a very simple mission, which is to turn jobs into degrees, as you said in the intro, as opposed the other way around. And that model is called the apprenticeship degree. Now. Kaitlin LeMoine: So you know. Reach University has a unique B2B2C model, right where you partner directly with employers, but you have this dual customer approach of working with employers but also serving the needs of your learners. Can we dive in a little bit there? I mean, this is a complex model to build. How have you gone about it? Joe E. Ross: Yeah, so it's, it's interesting, it's complex, but it also creates some simplicity as well. If you're running an apprenticeship degree, by definition, you are running a model that's based in the workplace from day one to the day of graduation. In fact, I'll back up. I probably should share for everybody what we mean by apprenticeship degree, and then that will lead lead to the answer. So an apprenticeship degree is defined by elements associated with apprenticeship going back centuries. This is not something that the Department of Labor defined 50 years ago or 10 years ago or this summer. It's something that goes back to a tradition that is very long standing, and apprenticeships had three defining elements that I think of as the ABCs that apply to an apprenticeship degree, a stands for Affordability for the learner, and in this day and age, that means without student debt, apprentices have been asked for their sweat, not for their debt, right? So at Reach University, we made this commitment the beginning, that no one would be would pay out of pocket. No learner would pay out of pocket more than $75 a month for full time enrollment in a full time work embedded degree program that's a for affordability. B stands for Based in the workplace from day one to the day of graduation or the day of completion. An apprenticeship degree starts with a paid job. It ends, or is designed to end, with a better paid job. And C stands for Credit for work, Credit for learning at work. Kind of has a double meaning. Learning at work means literally learning at work, but it also means learning put to work, theory, meaning practice. C also stands for Credential of value. This is not a compromise. It is still a Bachelor of Arts or a Master of Arts or an Associate of Arts. AA does not stand for Apprenticeship Arts Degree. It stands for Associate of Arts degree. So with that definition in mind, let me go back to B based in the workplace. The reason we think of this as a B2B2C model, as opposed to a, B2C model is because you can't run an apprenticeship or an apprenticeship degree without close engagement with employers and for the university. What that means, among many things, is that instead of coming to the university looking for graduates, the employer comes to the university at the front end, bringing the students, you work with employers, and then the employers engage their incumbent workforce, or they actually recruit new employees into jobs that come with degrees. And so what you end up seeing is a lot of partnership work with employers, which is kind of shoe leather and handshaking and presence on the ground, as opposed to buying Google AdWords and competing in the internet for advertising for consumers. And as a result of that, a B2B2C model is much more affordable to execute, and that savings gets passed on to the apprentices, to the learners, in the form of much lower tuition, much more affordability. Julian Alssid: So Joe, your model, in a sense, is helping to solve labor shortages. And want to hear you talk about, like, who these who these learners are, and what kinds of jobs you're preparing them for. This notion that there's like, this talent, and you know the term like hiding in hiding in plain sight, yeah, is really what you're about, yeah. Joe E. Ross: Well, we started five years ago with our teachers college, and we were focused on the teacher shortage. And by any estimate, there's many as 30 to 50,000 structural vacancies, to as much as 300,000 structural vacancies in teaching. And what we discovered is that in the very same buildings where principals were looking for teachers where there were classrooms without permanent staff, in those same buildings, there were a lot of human beings doing other jobs that didn't require degrees. They were working as classroom aides, as library aides, they were in the lunchroom, they were in the office, driving the bus. They were janitors, like my father and each of these individuals share, typically, the same story. At some point, they had to choose that job instead of a degree to take care of their family. For example, we did some research, because this was anecdotal, and this was something we were seeing on the ground, but we did some research. You know, if you look the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there's about 1.3 to 1.5 million classroom aids in this country, if there's only 50,000 teacher shortages, you only need a fraction of those aids, a fraction of those aides to get upskilled, earn a degree, to just end a teacher shortage. That type of ratio plays out in other high demand industries. If you look at nursing, there's a nursing shortage, but there's also a tremendous number of people working in hospitals as patient care assistants, or certified nursing assistants and many other roles who, if we actually treated those people as the talent we need and give them the opportunity to rise up, we would end these labor shortages and we create this upward mobility that we want this country to stand for. We bring it to life in places, particularly rural places that are education deserts. So that's basically the story here we have, on one hand, estimates suggest about 10 million high demand labor shortages in high demand industries, and on the other hand, there's 40 to 50 million people working in the workforce who do not have a degree, but surveys indicate they wish they did have a degree. And if we can actually move higher ed to think about that population, those 50 million people already in the workforce or about to enter the workforce, as the market for higher ed, as opposed to the 3 million graduating from high school every year, or maybe in addition to the 3 million who are graduating from high school every year, it's such a win, win. Higher ed has a new mission, 50 million people who were left out get brought back in, and we address labor shortages in high demand fields, particularly in rural, remote places where often the only answer is to do a grow your own effort, as opposed to recruiting effort. Kaitlin LeMoine: Can you tell us a little bit, Joe about how this model works like a practical level. So you said, right? You know, people learners should be, you know, receiving credit for the work that they're doing on the job. But what does it look like to implement this? Joe E. Ross: I think the apprenticeship degree is always met with this kind of, oh, this sounds too good to be true. Somebody can have a paid job. Half the learning in their degree program comes from that paid job. The other half comes from seminars held at night or on the weekends or asynchronous instruction. There's no student debt. There's a better paid job waiting at the end of it. Employers are feeling labor shortages, individuals are getting upward economic mobility, and people are kind of like, well, that's genius. Too good to be true. How do you do you do it? Just like you just asked, here are some things that need to go into the design approach. First, employers to higher education providers need to work really closely together to make sure that the degree design meets the needs of the employer. In many ways, the employer is the customer here. They should be actually, in many cases, paying for the program instead of the learner, right? So you have to work with the employers to design now and teaching that's fairly straightforward, because every state knows what teachers need to know, and it's pretty common across state borders what teachers need to know. Similarly, in other professions like a nursing or radiological technician or other allied health fields, the standards of what you need to know in those professions as well now, but you still need to work with employers to make sure that the program design works. And then from there, the employers are also your key partners. I said earlier in recruiting their incumbent workforce, or their new hires into these pathways with the promise that their jobs are not just job type jobs, but jobs that turn into degrees and then give you upward mobility after completion of a certain set period of time. In terms of the actual design of the model, part of what's required here is to rethink some practices that are often taken as rules or laws or regulations, but are just habits In higher education. And I'll give you one example. There's something called the Carnegie Unit that is about the ratio of seat time to homework time, essentially. And this is seen as a barrier to work embedded degree programs, because, oh my gosh, we had to have this much seat time, and then people have to, have to do this, this much homework, and then they have to work 40 hours a week. How do you fit it all in? And so one of the things that we did from the beginning said, Look, you can reimagine the Carnegie Unit as being a function of seat time and work time as opposed to seat time and homework time, right? So if you can combine seat time with assignments on the job, or sense making around what you're doing on the job instead of mindless, irrelevant problem sets or whatever the case may be busy work. But actually make work work, the work instead of busy work, the work. You can actually create an environment where for a learner, and this is the objective for a worker, one plus one in this case, equals one. It should feel like their job and their higher education pathway are the same thing. That's the key element of efficiency here that needs to go into the design. And then from there, there's things in a higher education credential that people think, Well, how could you do that in the workplace? For example, you need to know English or critical thinking or history or writing, or all these things that are referred to as general education? Well, it turns out you can carefully design the liberal arts component of almost any professional or occupational degree to be relevant to that occupation. We're designing a program right now in behavioral health, for example. And to get an associate or bachelor's degree, you need something that looks like writing and reading and literature for to be a degree, but you can choose something that's relevant. So we have a semester we're designing where there's two tracks of learning. One is psychology, one, two and three, which is with one faculty member, and then there's practice on the job. And the other track is literature, but it's going to be the literature of mental illness, right? And it's going to feel really integrated with the psychology track, and it's going to be relevant to the job. So that's the kind of curricular design work that I think the apprenticeship degree needs to entail. Because at the end of the day, these are working adults, and we know what working adults need, and we sometimes are really good at giving them what they need at the graduate level, but now we have to give them what they need at the undergraduate level to make sure the associate degree in the bachelor's degree truly is working better. Julian Alssid: It's all about that context, really, and just baking it in all around. So then, given this integration and approach like, what are the metrics that you're using to track and what's your impact today? Joe E. Ross: Yeah, we started with 67 candidates in our pilot cohort in the Louisiana and Arkansas Deltas. That was five years ago. We'll have well over 3,000 candidates across almost 500 school districts in eight states as of this fall. So the program is growing. That's one metric that's important. And in some places, school districts and parishes are reporting the sentiment that their teacher shortage seems to be going away, which is great news, and in part, that's because of programs like, like Reach University, and that's exciting to see when, when do you get to, like, actually solve a major social problem as a nonprofit leader in your life, it's always something on the horizon. We're actually seeing shortages go away, which is amazing. Notably, the population we're serving are overwhelmingly Pell eligible. And so Pell eligibility, I think, is a good proxy for economic need. And any given semester, roughly 70 to 75% of our enrollment is Pell eligible, 37 to 39 year old folks with families and full time jobs, and so they're eligible for Pell. And the typical graduation rate at the undergraduate level for someone who is Pell eligible is a shocking 40 to 50%. In our program. It's on track to be 70% for all our almost all of our cohorts. And I think actually, we have a tailwind in this case, because the number one reason that people who are Pell eligible drop out is economics. They need a job, but in an apprenticeship degree, they already have a job. So you've removed one of the major barriers to completion of a college degree when you pair the degree with a paid job from beginning to end. And so it's not surprising that we're seeing much better completion rates. We also look at retention, you know, the you know, retention is kind of along the way. The most challenging year for a Pell eligible first generation student is the first year of college. And so you really, you can't lose 30 or 40% in year one and have anything close to a 70% graduation rate, obviously, four years later, five years later, and and so we tracked that first year persistence really carefully, and we constantly, actually... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/38115150

Kaitlin and Julian on Work Forces: Past and Future 08/26/2025

Kaitlin and Julian on Work Forces: Past and Future Kaitlin LeMoine and Julian Alssid turn the microphone on themselves to kick off Season 5 of the Work Forces podcast. As they approach their 50th episode, the co-hosts reflect on their journey and the dramatic shifts they've witnessed at the intersection of work and learning. Kaitlin and Julian discuss the evolution of workforce development from a fringe topic to a central national priority, highlighting how this shift has been influenced by economic, political, and technological changes. They unpack the rise of a skills-based ecosystem, noting how the traditional "once and done" model of education has become obsolete in an era of rapid technological change, particularly with the widespread adoption of generative AI. Drawing on their consulting work and insights from past guests, the co-hosts emphasize the imperative of cross-sector collaboration and human-centered design in bridging the gap between education and industry. They stress that experiential learning is now the new currency of opportunity, and human connection remains the "secret sauce" for success. Kaitlin and Julian offer practical advice for leaders navigating this period of unprecedented change. They encourage listeners to embrace agility and partnership, keep their eye on the prize of helping individuals thrive, and anchor their work in human purpose to build a more equitable and prosperous future for all. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to the workforces Podcast. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with innovators who are shaping the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: This podcast is an outgrowth of our Work Forces consulting practice. Through weekly discussions, we seek to share the trends and themes we see in our work and amplify impactful efforts happening in higher education, industry, and workforce development all across the country. We are grateful to Lumina Foundation for its past support during the initial development and launch of this podcast, and invite future sponsors of this effort. Please check out our Work Forces podcast website to learn more. And so with that, let's dive in. Kaitlin LeMoine: So Julian, we're at an exciting point here, kicking off Season Five. Can't believe it. We're rapidly coming up on 50 episodes and two years of hosting this podcast. Thanks to all of our guests and listeners who have supported this work so far, and we're excited to be in this new season, and it felt like a good moment to welcome everyone and take this moment to share our own perspectives. It feels like a good time to flip the mic back on ourselves and share a bit of our own thinking at this evolving and fast moving intersection of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Yes, it indeed is a milestone moment for us, Kaitlin, as we embark on Season Five here, and it's been such a pleasure working with you, consulting with you, and podcasting with you. And also, I'm so grateful to our guests and our audience for making this possible. It's just as as we had hoped from the beginning, as this kind of grew out of our consulting, it really has just become kind of a natural corollary and feedback loop for us to keep learning and sharing and learning and sharing. So let's learn and share with one another today. Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely well, the feeling is mutual. Thank you for your partnership over the last few years in this work and in our consulting efforts. And yeah, excited to dive in with this conversation today. So I guess to kick us off, Julian, you know, given your many years in this space and in the last few years of our work together, you know, how are you seeing the intersection of work and learning, changing and evolving. What are you paying attention to? What are you thinking about? Julian Alssid: I keep going back to the same point when I really think back to my like, 35 years in the field. You know when I started this, and even when we met over a decade ago, this was still fringe work. It was people interested in workforce development were basically the people who were working on workforce development in one form or another, and it has gone from front to center, I think, driven mostly by economic imperative, you know, by rising skill demands and gaps between learners and employers and everyone trying to find a better way to come together. It's been enforced, and I think, fed further by policy. So for example, I mean, I guess I will say it's and have been saying this for a long time too. It's really been kind of an apple pie topic that cuts across the political spectrum, and so, you know, and we're and we're even seeing that with all the change going on now. The Biden administration, previous administration, made significant investments in workforce development, and that helped to accelerate and focus attention across industry and government and education. And just recently, the Trump administration released its new talent strategy report, which kind of lays out a plan for a more streamlined system. Now, of course, these approaches are very different, and I think along with that is this kind of great sense of uncertainty, like, well, where will these new policies drive us and so it's, it's kind of like we're all dressed up and not exactly sure where to go. Kaitlin LeMoine: Right. Well, and everything's moving so quickly too, right? Like it's it's the policy, it's also the tech space. It's also how industries are shifting very, very quickly, and just trying to keep pace and kind of keep all of these different changes on our radar screens while still moving the work forward feels like a key challenge. Julian Alssid: Yeah. So, yes, absolutely. I mean, and there's just so many pieces of this to unpack. I mean, what do you see as, like, what is, what is rising to the surface for you? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah? I mean, I think that one of the things that strikes me that feels distinct from other points, I guess, in my work in this field over the many years is that I feel like there's so much happening for employers and industry, for educators, whether in K 12 or in higher ed, and for learners, kind of all at the same time. And maybe it's partially that, you know, the focus of my work has shifted to over the years, like from being very focused on implementing one program, or one initiative, or thinking about tactically, how to go about doing things, versus also now operating at a level of thinking about how does this broader landscape impact work with different types of clients, but it just feels like there's so much movement for employers as they think about how to hire and train and recruit the next generation of employees. Then there's the next generation of learners, and how we are educating those individuals, whether they're from some of our podcast conversations, right, like in middle school, or whether they're in higher ed or adult learners who are looking to advance further. And then for the actual people you know, for those learners, as they're looking for jobs and looking to advance. It just feels like there's so much movement, so much at stake, and it's like this moment of de siloing wherever possible, because we're all like, there's this recognition that employers can't do this work without educators. Educators can't do this work without employers, and we need this feedback loop in order to really try to all advance in this complex intersection of work and learning together, that's I feel like, really top of mind for me at this moment. Julian Alssid: Yeah, it is. It is so complex. And I like to try to think about like, well, what are the kind of, what are the threads that run through it all? Kind of try to bring some clarity and and one that that keeps popping to mind for me is this whole idea of the the rise of a skills based ecosystem that, you know, I think that you know that there was so much talk for years about, you know, kind of the knowledge based economy and, and I do think we are, on some level, shifting to more of a skills based economy. And I was even just thinking back to like interviews we did. I remember Matt Siegelman from Burning Glass Institute talked about the study that Burning Glass had done back in, I think '22 that showed that at that point, the average job had seen 30% of its skills replaced in five years. And so this whole idea of kind of the one and done model of education becomes obsolete. And by the way, that 37% figure came before the widespread adoption of generative AI. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah. So what does it mean now? Right? Julian Alssid: Yeah, exactly. Are we moving now? Right? It was bad enough then, and you could see the gaps, and you could see people employers complaining about not getting the skills, and people frustrated with their education, saying they're not getting what they need. And yes, but I think what we're seeing now is employers are increasingly prioritizing skills and competencies. Their still certainly their leadership has degrees, but it's definitely moving to the fore. Kaitlin LeMoine: No, I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I think one thing that stuck out to me from our past, from our episodes this past season, kind of building on that, you know, were a couple of different conversations just around this integration of, like, career advice, support, and transparency, kind of across this ecosystem and certainly being built more into the educational experience. Like you know, whether it was our conversation with Nisha Taylor, with NACE regarding both the career competencies and making the skills and competencies that learners are acquiring clear and transparent, like how to talk about those things with employers, how to make it ring true to employers. And then even thinking back to Scott Carlson and Ned Laff with their Hacking College book, and thinking about how do we really make the experiential learning more embedded through, like, a field of study type approach in the higher ed experience, right? Like, so it's like, I think what you're saying about this knowledge based economy and this becoming more front and center there, I think is more and more great work being done around, how do we bridge that gap and make the language we're using clear across employers and learning institutions, so that it's like this is what people know and can do, and learners know how to communicate it. And actually the transparency thread is has been woven into our consulting work as well. We support clients in researching and determining learning pathways that lead to career progression in order to make opportunities clearer for both learners and employees, who may themselves be at very different stages of their career journeys. So, you know, I guess really, so much of it's about being explicit, about naming the skills being acquired in a way that's useful for learners, especially at this moment with AI where it can be really challenging to make oneself distinct. And really, so much of it's about being able to communicate your knowledge, your experience and what you know and can do. Julian Alssid: Exactly, and it's really leading so many of the institutions to adapt their curriculum and embrace this sort of new model of education that focuses on skills and practical applications. So how do you do that, while maintaining, you know, academic standards to the degree that you feel those. Are important, you know, we know those academic skills, or are the skills that carry people longest in their careers and and I think part of what also adds to this complexity is this proliferation of new tools to kind of inform and support the entire learning and advising and hiring cycle, right? So it's a blizzard of information and activity that all revolves around this kind of rise of a sort of skills based ecosystem and redefining the role of education. Kaitlin LeMoine: No, I think that that's right. I mean, and it does make me think about, like, what does all of this mean for us? Like, in our consulting work too, right? Like, because, because, I think for all of us, I mean, every time we're on this podcast, right, there's this element of like, how can we be forces in this work? How do we apply this work to our own our own lives, our own efforts? It feels like it's like we're talking about these big picture challenges and and areas of opportunity and like, as as we're talking it's making me think, well, as we go about our own work, I think one of the things we're trying to do is both drive projects and initiatives forward in collaboration with our clients, while also being mindful and aware of this landscape and remaining kind of up to date on what's happening, what's current, right? And like, trying to decipher, okay, what do we need to pay immediate attention to, and what's like a thread to be monitoring, but like, we keep the work going, right, right? Like, that feels like a piece of the work that's just now inherent in everything we take on. As far as, like, one idea for, like, practical implementation of all this learning. It's just part of how we approach it now. Julian Alssid: No, for sure, and it's interesting because I think it calls for sort of a level of discipline on our part, as well as our clients or partners, that didn't exist previously. It's just, again, trying to keep the focus on what we are trying to accomplish? So for example, and that just keeps bringing me back to like, what are the what are the things that matter, no matter how much is changing that you need to keep the handle on and and one that comes to mind for me, and I look back at last season and thinking about our consulting, as well as is the imperative of partnerships and the need for cross sector collaboration. And you know, the idea that no one partner can do this alone is way, way too complex. Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely, and that's where so much of where consulting work takes place, as the external partner that helps develop and facilitate these partnerships to ensure stakeholder alignment and a continuous feedback loop that allows different partners to bring their unique vanity points and perspectives to the table, while also being mindful and aware of the broader landscape in which we're all operating and collaborating and working together can help to unearth where there might otherwise be hiccups, like you were thinking of it this way. Oh, I was thinking of it that way. How can we come together before we design a solution? Julian Alssid: Exactly, I'm thinking about the work we're doing now with a community college in Massachusetts and its partners around manufacturing. It really is about what each partner brings to the table that's unique. In this case, the educators educate, the employers run businesses. There's a lot of nuance there in the perspectives, and how do you communicate them, and how do you get everyone on the same page so they can, right up front, have the basis for a solid partnership that's going to ultimately make a difference? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is difficult and complicated work. Julian Alssid: Yeah, and it's often why we're brought in as consultants. So given all of that, what can people do to be forces at this rapid time of change and transition? Kaitlin LeMoine: And maybe this sounds too optimistic, but there's a part of me that's like, let's continue to drive good work forward, right? There's so many amazing programs, initiatives like that are really focused on helping learners succeed, meet their next milestone, their next goal, whether it's workforce development, a training program, you know, four year degree, whatever it is, right? Like, there's so many great initiatives moving like, I think at moments of, like, a lot of change in transition. It's almost like, don't stop, like, there's the need to slow down and reevaluate and be aware of what's going on. But also, there's just so much need that, like the work will continue in some way, shape or form. And I think, like I'd said earlier, the other thing is really to remain as much as possible, like remaining current, right on, on these shifts, maybe without it letting without any one new bit of information totally driving you in a totally new direction. Because I think it can feel like oh, wait a minute, this is the new the newest information on AI, what do we do with this? And it's like, well, how does that new information fit within the existing strategy you have in place? How can you learn from that information or incorporate it without maybe it upending? Like, you know, whatever your strategy or plan is, those are a couple things that stick out to me. Julian Alssid: Yeah, it's. Funny as you say that, what popped in my mind is, you know, technology alone does not solve the workforce challenges totally, at least not yet. But in fact, I think for me, two points that kind of come to the fore in terms of what we can do to be forces in this time of change as well. One is the main one is just to kind of keep our eye on the prize, because it is, as you say, so easy to get caught up in the swirl or chase down rabbit holes and and at the core, you know, the intersection of work and learning is about helping individuals thrive and growing the economy. It's kind of this dual customer focus, as we like to say, and so I think therefore our clients, our customers, our audience and us all need to embrace agility and partnership. We really need to adopt this mindset of continuous learning and adaptability, because this things are changing, and they're gonna keep changing and changing. I mean, you know, we're like again, we've barely begun to factor in AI to what the impact on work, and if you look at the amount of money being invested, it's going to have an impact, no matter what the reports today are telling us. Kaitlin LeMoine: The impacts are already happening, right? Julian Alssid: They're already happening, but they're going to be way more massive than anyone will probably realizes or wants to admit. You know, I think back to the conversation we had even a couple of seasons ago with Pardis Madhavi, who's, you know, former university president who talked with us in Season Three about how leaders of institutions have to embrace a high tolerance for failure and a culture of nimbleness and, you know, in order to remain relevant, and I think that's something we all need to do. And then the other is just not to lose sight of the fact that this all has to be anchored, this work has to be anchored in human purpose. I mean, that's the secret sauce, right? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, no, I think one of the things that sticks out now more than ever, and it's come up in a couple of our podcast conversations with, I think, with Matt Siegelman and Julia Freeland Fisher just around, like the human connection piece, right? Like so much of, I think what's happening now is re emphasizing the importance of human skills and like, how do we make sure those connections remain and that we continue to build skills like problem solving and critical thinking and communication, right, like not let go of those skills as as these other technological advancements, as you said, right, continue to push us in new in kind of unchartered directions. Kaitlin LeMoine: It was on Jean Eddie this, this quote kept popping out at me as I went back to listen to our earlier podcasts in preparation for this discussion, is Jean Eddy from American Student Assistance said that the goal is to help students find a path that makes their hearts sing. And I think ultimately we've just got to keep that human focus. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yep, yep. I think that's right. Julian Alssid: So with that said, you know, here we are ready to launch our next set of interviews, where we will certainly continue to unpack and delve into these... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/37925050

Work Forces Rewind: Scott Carlson and Ned Laff on Hacking College 08/12/2025

Work Forces Rewind: Scott Carlson and Ned Laff on Hacking College Scott Carlson and Ned Laff, authors of "Hacking College," discuss how to craft a higher education experience that intentionally links student learning to future work and career success. They emphasize the necessity of a proactive and personalized approach to higher education, tapping into students' passions and hidden intellectualism. Carlson and Laff champion a field of study approach, empowering students to actively design their undergraduate degrees, unearth hidden job markets, and leverage faculty expertise. They underscore the significance of cultural and social capital, urging institutions to adapt and support this student-centric model. The conversation illuminates the ways that higher education administrators and faculty, and students themselves, can personalize the learning experience to ensure higher ed graduates are well-equipped to navigate diverse career opportunities. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Happy summer all. We're back with one more rewind episode featuring Scott Carlson and Ned Laff. And in this conversation, we dive deep into their new book Hacking College. Amongst many topics, we discuss a framework to approach college and the college experience with a personalized focus on future careers and long-term goals. We hope you enjoy this conversation and look forward to kicking off our next season in our next episode. So Julian, I've noticed a real shift in our conversations lately, both with clients and on the podcast, we seem to be delving deeper into the complexities of the school-to-work transition, especially for young adults and for working adults. Julian Alssid: It's true. Kaitlin, and it really highlights the increasing complexity of that transition. The job market is constantly evolving, and it can be tough for students to figure out where they fit in, especially with so many opportunities hidden from public view. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a tall order for educators and institutions too. For example, faculty are being asked to wear many hats and skills like career advising can sometimes feel separate from their day to day roles and require new sets of tools and related training. Julian Alssid: Right? It's not just about helping students find a job, but about guiding them through a process of self discovery, exploration and network building and helping them understand their own interests and strengths and how those connect to real world opportunities. Kaitlin LeMoine: And that's where I think our guests today, Scott Carlson and Ned Laff, have some really valuable insights. They've literally written the book on this. It's called "Hacking College", and we're talking to them on the book's release date. Julian Alssid: Yes, and congratulations, guys. The book offers a framework for faculty and staff to help students take a more proactive and personalized approach to their college experience with a real focus on future careers and life goals. Kaitlin LeMoine: Though we'll ask Scott and Ned, to give their own background, Scott's a Senior Writer at The Chronicle of Higher Education, where he's been writing about the trends shaping higher education for over 25 years. As his LinkedIn profile states, he writes about where education is headed, how it serves or doesn't serve students and the public, and how the sector can stay relevant and resilient. Julian Alssid: And Ned has over 35 years of experience in higher ed, helping students design successful undergraduate experiences. He's held leadership roles at numerous colleges and universities focused on academic advising, curriculum development and student engagement. Kaitlin LeMoine: Scott and Ned, welcome to Work Forces. Congratulations on the publication of this book, and we're excited to dive in with you today to learn more about Hacking College. Ned Laff: Thank you so much. Scott Carlson: Thanks for having us on. Julian Alssid: So to get the conversation started, love to hear a bit more about your respective backgrounds and how you came together to write this book. Scott Carlson: Well, as Kaitlin had said, I was at The Chronicle for about 25 years. I've you know, in the years leading up to the pandemic, I was writing a lot about inequality and the path from college to work. I wrote a couple of Chronicle reports about the future of work and how students wind up getting jobs. And in writing some of this, these reports, and writing some of these stories, the follow up stories in The Chronicle, I had been getting a lot of notes from one Ned Laff who had been contacting me and had been working in this area for some time. And this is, in fact, how we got to know each other and got to meet each other, because Ned was just writing me over and over again about, oh, there's a better way. There's a better way to do this. I'll let him take the story from there. Ned Laff: Yeah, I have the work that I had been doing in higher ed. It's hard to call it something like advising. It's, it's in this middle, middle ground. I got into this when I was a grad student at the University of Illinois in Urbana, where I was working in a program called Individual Plans of Study, where students could design their own academic major, provided it couldn't be done in any of the colleges at the University of Illinois Urbana. And what we began to find out working is that students would be coming in and we would help them figure out how they could do essentially, the heart of an individual plan of study, but underneath the rubric of a major. And that started to raise questions in my mind about what is the nature of a college curriculum from the eyes of a student. What is the relationship of a college curriculum to the world of work? If there is this giant thing called the hidden job market, which is not advertised in career services, you don't see it on, you don't see it on. Indeed. You don't see it anywhere. And what does this mean in terms of student engagement, and how students can tap what they're genuinely interested in, what we call hidden intellectualism, and how they actually better engage learning and and the university they're at. And I would send Scott these. I'm like, probably about 100 emails a week, just nagging them. I got something here. I got something here. Just give me five minutes, though. Kaitlin LeMoine: You share about this in this, in the book, a little bit. We'd love to hear about how the book title came to be. And can you share a bit about the major challenges you hope to tackle when writing this book? Scott Carlson: Well, I think when I was writing some of that stuff for the Chronicle about the path from college to work, I was sort of following along the kind of narrative that everyone else sort of follows. And it's, you know, it's sort of about skills. What do you do with liberal arts education? How do you get students to land internships and all of that. And you know, really, one of the points that we that we make in hacking college is that a lot of that just sort of comes about by luck. For a lot of students, they just sort of happen to run into the right person who shows them how to play the game, or they come from a lot of social and cultural capital that sort of paves the way to where they want to go. And part of what we're trying to do with hacking college is to describe, kind of, the principles of how people wind up creating valuable undergraduate degrees. We're kind of looking at the whole issue of what is the empty college degree. You know, the empty college degree being sort of this degree that is a quote, unquote useful major, and then a bunch of other stuff in the degree that doesn't really knit together. And a lot of students graduate with that kind of degree. You know, we think this is like a huge part of what drives the national conversation about underemployment and of the value of college right now, and that emptiness being sort of the main problem there. And so with Hacking College, we're trying to tackle this, this question like, how do you actually get to something that's valuable? The term hacking comes from the notion that colleges sort of set up a bunch of rules around, you know, how do you get through? How do you, what do you major in? How do you, how do you fill up the rest of the undergraduate degree? And we're using the metaphor of hacking we're talking about like, how do you, how do you use these different structures that you find in college and then knit them together in a conscious way? How do you, how do you create opportunities and create a program that plays off the strengths that you already bring to college? This is a big part of the hacking metaphor there, coming out of the work of Bruce Schneier, who talks about how hacking is across society. People hack the tax code. People hack regulations, government regulations. People hack their lives in all sorts of ways. And of course, the wealthy hack college in hiring expensive college consultants, in, you know, in lining up opportunities for their children in all sorts of ways. How can we do this for students who don't bring these kinds of resources to the undergraduate experience? Julian Alssid: So Ned, you so in the book, I think you used the term earlier, you described approaching this undergraduate experience as a field of study. Ned Laff: Yes. Julian Alssid: What does that mean? What exactly do you mean? And how does approaching college with that lens impact their learner experience? Ned Laff: The interesting thing about using field of study is, I asked students once, can you tell me the difference between your college faculty and your high school faculty, and they couldn't and it was a wonderful experience, because what it meant was basically 90% of what faculty have to offer, what a university has to offer, is invisible. So when you look at faculty, faculty are field of study specialists. They aren't just, I'm a professor of English or I'm a professor of biology, they are I'm a professor of environmental biology, and I'm looking at the migration patterns of whales. And that is looking at it is defining a problem which we call in the book wicked problems, which demand a multi disciplinary approach. And how you approach those wicked problems depends on how you define it. So it's not unusual to hear students come out and say, I just graduated with my degree. I'm at Northwestern University. I actually heard this the other day at the gym. I'm at Northwestern University. I'm graduating, and I have no idea what I'm doing with my degree. I don't know how it adds up, because no one had ever asked them a question like this. I'm going to go into accounting. I have no idea what. Talking about, can you explain that to me? And as soon as you ask for that explanation, whole bunches of things open up. And among those things that open up are all this possibility in what Scott and I call the hidden job market. So the other part of field of study is that it brings an outward looking perspective into how students think inwardly about the college. When they begin to do this, what they realize is there's three basic components to an undergraduate education. When you look at most colleges, right, Gen Ed, the major, and what are you going to do with the rest of the hours, which is almost a third or more of your hours? Sometimes it could add up to 50 hours, because some courses in the gen ed count for the major. Well, when you look at a degree audit, it's except for the basic required courses. It's blank spaces to be filled in. How you fill that in is either going to lead to a profound field, the study for you, where you're using the that thing that you're interested in, your hidden, what we call hidden intellectualism, to guide the way you start looking at the learning opportunities on campus and filling these pieces in so they integrate and they fit together. So Gen Ed links with elective courses, which link with how you select what you want to take from this thing called the major department, and how you begin to identify faculty by their fields of specialty. So for instance, take psychology. There's developmental psychologists, there's social psychologists, there are psychologists that focus on Labor and Industrial Relations. There are cognitive psychologists, neuroscientists, all of those, if, depending on how you're going to look at the problem you want to study, all of those represent a different way of organizing the learning opportunities on campus. How you organize those learning opportunities that starts building out a field of study. But the other thing that's important in doing this is finding out who is doing that thing you want to do, because all of a sudden you walk out into the world, right? And this world, by the way, could be faculty doing their research and they're discovering things that, wow, if I was to do it all over again, I would be doing this for my course selection instead of that, because this is what I'm encountering right now, and students can bring that information back into how they begin to design what their curriculum or their course of study is, and that's the difference. It's an active design process, not from an advisor or a faculty member talking about degree requirements, but from a student designing the pieces of their curriculum. Julian Alssid: Just going back for a minute. I mean, this makes all the great sense and and I think anyone you know, so many of us can hearken back to that faculty or administrator that kind of helped us help the lights go off. But I guess I do wonder, and I don't know, maybe I'll love this one to you, Scott, this requires a bit of a mind shift for a lot of faculty. I mean, I don't think you know, they signed on to be the Career Counselor, the social networking expert, along with the, you know, the content expert and expert instructor. So A, what's your view about that? And B, how are we going to get from here to where you guys think we need to go? Scott Carlson: I mean, I think what you're asking is sort of what I'm picking up from what you're asking is, you know, an implement, an implementation sort of factor here, like, how does this actually happen on a college campus, right? And so kind of part, you know, what we envision, you know, we wrote Hacking College in this very conversational style that allows anyone to read it and anyone to sort of adopt the practices there. Because, you know, on one hand, people you know, they sort of asked us, do you want after this, this book came out of a story that I wrote for The Chronicle called the crusade against terrible advising, right? And after the article came out, you know, Johns Hopkins Press and others had asked, Do you want to turn this into a book? Do you want to write a book about advising? And we really didn't want to write a book about advising. We wanted to write about these structures that cause students to fall off the path. And in writing the book, we wanted to write it in this accessible style, because we sort of felt that everyone on a campus should be able to read this and then work with the students that they, in particular, have in their orbit. That's how you're going to sort of increase, increase the touches that that students have with people on campus, right? We can't just sort of lay this all on advisors, or lay this all on faculty advisors, and in part of the part of implementing this, part of what we're getting at is that what the colleges can do is they can, they can sort of adopt this as a mind frame at the colleges where everyone is sort of speaking this field of study, language and instructing students how to how to go about this, how to talk to people, how to find these contacts that are going to help instruct them in how to design their undergraduate degree. Now, these can be faculty members, but we're hopeful that when the students do encounter the faculty members, when they are working with them. They're working with the faculty members that share this kind of passion, or this hidden intellectualism, or this area of interest, this place where they're going to have a head start on the conversation, because they're already into what the faculty are talking about. And those faculty members, members then will be motivated to work with those students, because those students are in the area that they're interested in. I mean, a big part of the social capital that we talk about in hacking college comes through cultural capital. You know, the conversation about social capital is everywhere in higher ed right now. It's about who you know, right? But a big point that we're making in hacking college is that what drives the social capital is the cultural capital. It's the stuff that you're bringing as a person to the other person in making this link across interests, hidden intellectualism, obsessions, that kind of thing. So this is, I think, a big key to sort of making these relationships work. Ned Laff: And another part of it is this is very much the student is agent. So there's a student in doing this, they're creating networks. So it's not like I'm I am dependent on a faculty member. There could be three or four faculty members. There could be somebody in student affairs that they talk to, they go out on what we call this research, investigative inquiry, and start talking to people in the areas that they're interested in, and they're bringing information back there. Then they can sit, perhaps with somebody in an advising office and say, Here, I've got all this information. Now, how do I put the how do these pieces start to come together so that I can graduate under the requirements of a major, right? But design the pieces so it gets me to where I want to go. So it's very much a process of students building out their social capital, building out their cultural capital, learning how to network with people on campus and off campus, right? These are all the skills that everyone says people need, right? But they're doing this to design their undergraduate field of study. So in the process of doing their undergraduate education, all these mystical skills of oral communication and teamwork and stuff, they're all coming together, because what's driving it is the students' hidden intellectualism and their vocational purpose. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, I mean, I really appreciated in the in the book, when you know you had a line, it's not where you go to college, but how you do college that matters. That really stuck out to me. And I think, you know, as as we're thinking about the the social and cultural capital, and you know, one point in the book, you raise this concept of the hidden jobs, and you take it in a slightly different direction than I think we sometimes hear it talked about like it's not just about what's posted on LinkedIn as a job opportunity or not, but really that other definition around like pulling back the curtain of the world of work and helping learners really get an understanding of what are all the different job opportunities and career paths available in what might be. I mean, you, I love the scenario of working in a museum, right, like, but would love to, would love just to hear you talk a little bit more about that and what that, you know, what going down that path, through those hidden jobs, can really unearth for learners. Ned Laff: You know, this is where students, all of a sudden, everything changes for them. I sent this... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/37757265

Work Forces Rewind: NACE's Shawn VanDerziel on Colleges & Employers 07/29/2025

Work Forces Rewind: NACE's Shawn VanDerziel on Colleges & Employers Shawn VanDerziel, President and CEO of the , kicks off a special three-part series exploring the crucial intersection of higher education and industry. Drawing on his extensive experience in HR and recruitment, VanDerziel discusses how the evolving economy is reshaping entry-level hiring practices and the growing importance of skills-based recruitment. He highlights the challenges facing both employers and higher education institutions, including the “language gap” that prevents students from effectively articulating their skills to employers. VanDerziel also examines how AI is transforming both recruitment strategies and career services, drawing employers back to campus recruiting while offering new opportunities for understaffed career offices. The conversation offers practical strategies for helping students translate their academic experiences into workplace-relevant skills, ultimately strengthening the vital bridge between post-secondary education and meaningful employment. Transcript Kaitlin LeMoine: Hi all, hope you all are doing well. As we plan for our next podcast season, we're posting a few Work Forces Rewinds featuring some of the insightful conversations you may have missed from this past season. We hope you enjoy them as much as we did. While we'll be back with new episodes in the coming weeks, we want to pause to express our appreciation for you, our listeners. Julian and I are so grateful for your feedback, your likes and shares and overall engagement with the Work Forces podcast. Your encouragement and perspectives continue to shape the conversations we hold on the podcast and inform how we approach our consulting efforts as well. We hope you enjoy these Rewind episodes and we'll be back to kick off our next season soon. So here we go. Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian. We've spent a lot of time on this podcast exploring the connections between higher ed and industry. Among many topics, we've discussed experiential learning, skills based education, business, higher ed partnerships and the impact of AI. We've examined how colleges are continuing to adapt to workforce needs and how innovative collaborations are aligning academic programs with evolving career opportunities. Julian Alssid: That's right Kaitlin, and we're excited to share that we've partnered with the National Association of Colleges and Employers, or NACE, for a special three part mini series focused on a really critical piece of the higher ed-industry connection. Kaitlin LeMoine: For our listeners who may be less familiar, NACE is the leading professional organization for career services and university relations and recruiting professionals. As described on their website, NACE empowers and connects the community of professionals who support, develop, and employ the college educated workforce. Julian Alssid: This series will examine the work happening at the crucial intersection of learning and work in three parts. First, we'll discuss the broader landscape surrounding college career services and recruiting. Then we'll explore NACE's latest research, including projections for the class of 2025, and finally, we'll look at how leading colleges and employers are putting these insights into practice. To kick off today's conversation, we're honored to be joined by Shawn VanDerziel, President and CEO of NACE. Kaitlin LeMoine: Shawn, thanks so much for joining us today. We're excited to have you on this podcast. Shawn VanDerziel: Well, thanks for inviting us. I'm excited to be here with you all. Kaitlin LeMoine: So, Shawn, as we jump in today, can you please give us some background on yourself and what led you to NACE. Shawn VanDerziel: Sure I've had a windy road to my current position. I'm going to start back way back into college and move quickly through my career, so you can see the perspective by which I approach my work. I graduated from a large state school with my undergraduate and had no idea what I was going to do with my degree, and I had an opportunity to move to Chicago afterwards, which was a great move for me. And I found my first position working in college admissions, student enrollment, which was a natural for me, because in college, I was one of those overly involved students. I was a first generation student, so I didn't have the same resources as as many others may have had, and and wasn't quite sure how to approach my job search, etc, but I knew some things from my college experience, such as like giving campus tours, working with the admissions office, leading student groups, and I found my way into admissions. It was a great way to start my career. Worked my way up, and I got really burned out, and but what can I do? I was so tired of traveling all the time, being up until 10 o'clock at night, going to college fairs at high schools, all of those things. And so I thought, how can I transition these skills into something else? And I thought about recruiting, recruiting employees. So I was recruiting students. Why couldn't I recruit employees? And I found an organization that was really interested in me because of my connection to college students. They were very interested in connecting with college students to their employment opportunities. It was the first time that an outsourced service. Well, I should say, Fortune 500 company, utilized a outsourced service to fully take over the recruitment function. And so I worked for a company called Norrell Corporation, which was a billion dollar staffing company at the time, and we took over Bank of America's recruiting function for their Midwest region because they were expanding banks. So they were opening over 100 banks throughout the Chicagoland area in a period of about a year and a half. And I started as the recruitment manager, hiring all of these folks who are going to work in these banks, particularly through their management trainee programs and for tellers. And they wanted college students to be involved with that. So I was back on college campuses, looking for those students. Well again, I got really burned out, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the i being an outsourced service is a no joke kind of job. And I thought again, like, how can I transition this? And I already had the recruitment experience. I had always wanted to work at a museum, and finally, I had the skill to actually do something in a museum, and that was to work in a human resources office within a museum which is very niche, but I found a job and that I could apply for, and I actually got the job. And so I spent almost 25 years at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, which is one of the world's largest natural history museums, and I worked my way up from a human resources rep doing recruitment and employee relations to becoming the Chief Human Resources Officer, Chief of Staff. And I oversaw lots of different departments over time, including our IT department, our education department, marketing for a short while, and also oversaw our Board of Trustees and the functions related to that. While I was at The Field Museum, I built a really large internship program that included over 200 interns every summer. And that experience led me to NACE, the National Association of Colleges and Employers as a volunteer, I became a volunteer leader and eventually the Chair of the Board of NACE. Over a decade ago, when the executive director of NACE was about to retire, I became a part of the search process, and was lucky enough to actually be offered the job at the end of that executive search process. So five years ago, I started as this President and CEO of NACE, and am so delighted to be representing this organization to the world. Julian Alssid: Always so great to hear peoples' origin stories. And so tell us a bit more about NACE. So give us an overview, if you will, Shawn and and then the role that nice really plays at the sort of intersection of higher ed and industry. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, simply put, that's exactly what we do. We bridge post secondary education to employment. We're all about outcomes and equitable outcomes for all students who pursue post secondary education. What that means on a day to day basis is that we are a membership association that represents folks who work on college campuses, mostly in the career services offices. So we represent every type of college and university, small, large, private, public, community college, four year, you name it, that's about two thirds of our members. One third of our members are the employers who go into college campuses and recruit college students for employment opportunities, for full time internships, co ops, apprenticeships, you name it, the full gambit of opportunities. We represent close to 3,000 organizations, and over 17,000 almost 18,000 individuals are a part of the association. Kaitlin LeMoine: Wow. Yeah. So this is, this is an extensive operation you have going on, and I would imagine, thank you. Thank you for the background you provided, because it just feels like, wow, you're drawing on, I'm sure, all the different skills and experiences gathered over the years, especially both on the college recruitment side and then on the employer recruitment side as well. It's quite striking. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And one of the things that on important work, really important work. And we're not insular, so meaning, like we just don't do things for our members. We do things for the public at large, so that they understand what's happening with the outcomes of students. So at the center of everything that we do is research. We're a knowledge based organization, so we're able to study the employment market from a variety of perspectives. We can see what's happening at college campuses to prepare students for employment opportunities. We can talk with students about what they're looking for in their jobs and how they're being prepared for jobs in their careers, and we talk to the employers about what they're looking for and how those other two pieces need to evolve to meet the growing and demanding needs of the workplace of the future. Kaitlin LeMoine: Amazing. So with all that being said, given the rapidly shifting environment that we're currently operating in this very dynamic space, we'd love to dive into a couple of different areas that you just that you mentioned, and that NACE raised recently as part of a recent more environmental scan. I believe you posted about it on LinkedIn not too long ago. So one question we have is, first, how do you see the current economy and economic outlook reshaping how employers are hiring entry level talent, and how, with a different lens how colleges are preparing those learners for success as well. Shawn VanDerziel: What we know right now is that the employment market is contracting so there are fewer opportunities for college graduates to join the workforce as compared to, let's say, two or three years ago, and that is from general full time employment all the way through to internships. With that we also know that employers are continually telling us that there's a gap between what college students offer and what they're looking to hire. So they have, they have made a bunch of shifts in their hiring and how they hire, which is no different than the general employment landscape. So we keep hearing about skills based hiring. Well, this has caused employers, particularly with early talent to really focus on that skills based hiring. So what they're saying is, is that in the old days, they would look at students who had a particular major, and they would look to see what their grade point average is as a starting place for the hiring process, and today, they're telling us for some jobs, we will do that, particularly highly technical jobs that require technical skills. So if you're going to be an engineer, Well, you certainly don't want someone working on your airplane who didn't get good grades, right? So you want to know that they're the top of their class because they have the knowledge to do the job. So they might still be screened by GPA. But if I'm looking for someone who's going into a management trainee program of some sort, that's more of a generalist or etc, I might think a little bit more broadly. I don't necessarily have to have someone who has the highest GPA. What I want is someone who has the skills and competencies to do the job. So how am I then going to find that person? Well, I have to substitute something in there to screen that person by we know from talking to employers that work experiences in general are very important to them. So anytime a student can demonstrate work experiences, and they can list what they actually gained in skill or competency in that work is super important, and they look for internship experience, either internship experience with them as their that student's employer, or they look for industry experience. So did the person have an internship in something that's closely aligned? And those are the students that they're saying they probably have the skills to do the job. They're also, of course, doing things like keyword searches and and using AI as part of part of the recruitment process. But they're really trying to dig down to find students who are going to succeed long term, and that's also one of the reasons that they invest so much money, particularly large companies, into internship programs, because we know that internship programs are the number one return on investment for employers from a recruitment perspective, the cost value is there for them. They know that they can convert at least 50% of those interns into being full time employees. They know that when they hire that student who starts as an intern, they're going to be with the company, more likely a year later and more likely five years later. We know that we've got that that data data to back it up, so the return on investment is really there. So we're finding more and more interest from employers and and partnering with schools to make sure their internship programs are solid. We're also finding that they are returning to campus, so they've been doing hiring on the web for quite some time. They've been focusing on it virtually, but they're also finding a need to get back in person so that they can weed through some of the talent a little bit more quickly. Julian Alssid: That's so interesting that they're they're coming back. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, absolutely. And AI has a lot to do with that, and we certainly can talk more about AI and how that's impacting everything, but there's an impersonalization that's happening, and there really is a business case for for getting back on campus and finding that talent. Julian Alssid: Yeah, so before we go into AI, which definitely we want to hear more about, it's all the rage, as you may have heard, interested to talk a little bit more about the skills based practices, because there's been some written about how... The Burning Glass Institute and Harvard Center on Workforce wrote a piece a few months ago, which, of course, could be ancient history at this point, that companies were not picking up so much on on skills based practices. And so I'm interested to hear your take on that. You know, I get it with respect to the jobs where they're they are looking for skills. But how is it? Are they integrating this more broadly into their organizations? Are you seeing that? Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. So employers in our surveying do say that they, the majority of them, are doing some type of skills based hiring. Where they are doing it is either through keyword searches as an example, in screening the resumes through automated systems or the the other bulk is through behavioral based interviewing questions. So when a student actually lands an interview, being able to talk through with them what they have actually accomplished, and what they have the ability to be able to do based upon the skills and competencies that they've gained. And so by providing those concrete examples, they're able to kind of dig through that. But it also goes back to what I was mentioning just a few minutes ago, which is around they're kind of substituting when they say skills based hiring, what we say academically doesn't necessarily match what employers are doing logistically. There's always this gap between industry and higher ed and the language. And this is a really good example. And so when, from an academic perspective, we think of skill, we think, well, gosh, you're looking for someone who has great verbal speaking skills, right? You can do public speaking. Okay, great. So then, how do you screen for that? Well, what are those employers going to do to find that they're not going to put a test in place to have every candidate come through and do some kind of speech, right? That's not what they're going to do to get to that skill. What they're going to do is they're going to look on that resume and say, oh, gosh, did this student have an internship? And in that internship, did they use their verbal communication skills? Did they designate that on there? So if that skill is not listed, the employer isn't going to find it as a starting place, and then they're not going to be able to dig deeper on it when they get them into an interview. So this comes full circle to what's happening on campuses and preparing students to be career ready, and bridging that employment because we have an onus in higher education with these students to help them to articulate their skills and their competencies in a way that an employer can translate it and employers speak a totally different language. They want the shortcut. They want to get to the candidate in the fastest way possible. So they are going to put any mechanism in place to do that. And so it behooves us to help those graduates to be able to articulate it in every which way, all of the experiences that they have, right? So it doesn't even have they can come from unexpected ways. It could come from student activities. It could come from work study. It could come from a whole variety of places that a student may have obtained skills and competencies throughout their college career. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, it's really interesting to hear you talk about the language gap that exists Shawn and kind and the difference between, you know, maybe how, on the academic side, we describe a skill, and then the shortcut language that employers might use, I feel like that's, that's an area that we've I feel like has, you know, it's been around for for so long now, and it feels like there's just, there's more and more great work happening around how to close that gap. And you know, I think that if we're going to turn to the conversation of AI, it seems like there's some really interesting work there that might be able to support some of the closing of those gaps. But then there's also some new challenges that emerge as well. So would love to transition over to talk a little bit more about AI and how what you're seeing from the perspective of both use on the employer side with respect to recruitment and hiring, and also when we think about career services and preparing learners for really bridging that gap between post secondary and employer.... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/37593305

Work Forces Rewind: Jean Eddy on Youth Career Exploration 07/15/2025

Work Forces Rewind: Jean Eddy on Youth Career Exploration Jean Eddy, President & CEO of American Student Assistance (ASA), discusses how middle and high school students can develop career awareness and gain meaningful workplace experiences before college. Drawing on research showing middle school as the optimal window for career exploration, Eddy details ASA's digital platform approach, which reaches 15 million students through engaging, mobile-based tools that help them discover interests and connect to potential career paths. She emphasizes the critical "testing and trying" phase where students need hands-on experiences, highlighting ASA's grant-making initiatives that fund intermediary organizations bridging gaps between schools and employers. The conversation explores scaling these efforts through policy engagement and community buy-in, with Eddy advocating for making career exploration an integral part of education rather than a disconnected add-on for teachers while offering practical collaboration strategies for all stakeholders to help students find paths that "make their hearts sing." Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. We've spent much of our time on this podcast exploring learning and career pathways, especially for college students and adults, and while those conversations are important, we also know that it helps learners when they begin a process of career exploration much earlier on in their academic journeys. By the time someone gets to college, it can often be too late for foundational career exploration. We need to help K-12 learners develop an awareness and curiosity of various career options, get them age appropriate experience and help them link their academic interests to the world of work. Julian Alssid: That's right, Kaitlin, and it's something we both know firsthand. We both started our careers in innovative high schools, where we each designed project based and experiential learning opportunities intentionally integrated with internships and real world experiences. We so, you know, we understand the complexities of this work, particularly figuring out the right level of exposure to workplace skills and experiences for young people, you know, how do we best help them explore, gain experience, build social capital and discover their likes and dislikes? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, it is about developing the skills and awareness learners need to navigate the world of work and thinking about practical implementation. It's about working with employers who can meaningfully support this process, and about providing educators with the time and creative space to make these integrated learning experiences happen. Julian Alssid: This is a complex topic to unpack, and that's why we're so pleased to have Jean Eddie with us today as President & CEO of American student assistance, or ASA, she's leading the charge in changing how kids learn about careers and prepare for their futures. Jean is an accomplished leader with over 30 years of experience in higher ed, and has held leadership positions at Rhode Island School of Design, Brandeis University, and Northeastern University. She's a nationally recognized speaker and subject matter expert, cited frequently in major publications and a contributor to forbes.com Jean is deeply committed to student success and is the author of crisis proofing today's learners, and co host of The One Question Podcast with Michael Horn, who was a recent guest on Work Forces. Jean, we're looking forward to discussing ASA's innovative approaches to career readiness for middle and high school students, and how you're reaching them in new and novel ways. Welcome to Work Forces. Jean Eddy: So happy to be here, looking forward to the conversation. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, so are we Jean. It's such a pleasure to be with you today. So as we dive into today's conversation, can you please tell us more about your background and what led you to ASA? Jean Eddy: What is interesting is I met a colleague this morning for breakfast, quite early, and I worked with that person at one of the colleges that you mentioned. We were talking about the fact that we worked with a lot of young people who are on a college campus, and they really didn't know why they were there. And my colleague was basically saying that he oftentimes felt as though he was taking care of young people who were really not they couldn't find their own way. And I would have to say it reminded me of my own journey. I was in high school, and no one approached me about what was next. Never talked about it, never got prepared for it, etc. And if it weren't for the fact that I ended up, after leaving high school, going to a community college, I was lucky, you know, I met people who were interested in me and wanted to kind of show me some way or some path. Who knows where I'd be right now. But I guess, you know, I ended up in higher education because I was so taken with my own experience at a community college. And I worked in higher ed, as you said, for a number of years, but I worked with a lot of young people who really didn't know why they were in college, and I would say that some of them really should have taken another path, and instead, went on to college, spent an awful lot of money that they didn't need to spend, and then ended up with quite a bit of debt that they had to repay somehow, some way. So fast forward now to ASA. I became involved with ASA because ASA is a federal guarantor, and as a person who worked in higher ed I was on the board of ASA for a number of years. And why, why I was interested in ASA is because of the fact. They were really committed to helping young people. It was a very personal relationship, which with a lot of guarantors. It was not but at ASA, it was. And I stayed committed because I was so interested in how they interacted with students. When I was asked to become the CEO here, which was eight years ago now, we were talking about how we could think about working with young people before a problem arose. What we were doing was basically trying to put a band aid on something at the end of the day, rather than getting in front of the problem to see what we could do about that. So we did an awful lot of research and found out that the best time to really talk about careers was in middle school, and that seems kind of young, you know, sixth grade, seventh grade, but what we found was is that kids who are in that age bracket are really open to exploration. They aren't hardwired that they want to do this or they want to do that, and furthermore, their friends haven't made such a huge impact on them that they don't they were willing to go and find their own way. So we then did research about, how do we interact with these young people? What's the best way to do that? And we tried a number of things, but at the end of the day, what we found was we needed to kids meet kids where they are, and that's on a mobile device that's on their cell phone. So like it or not, 97% of the kids who are between 13 and 18 year old, 18 years old, have a cell phone. And so we created mobile, friendly programs that would allow young people to, first off, go out and have fun. Because to me, learning is all about fun. Let's start with that. It doesn't need to be something that's imposed and sometimes treacherous. It's rather what can be fun. So the first thing we developed was something that allowed a young person to have fun, but to basically do puzzles and games, which actually came up with kind of an indicator of things that somebody was good at, but moreover what they liked to do. And then we showed them all kinds of ways to be able to get to that in a successful career. And it's not to say at someone who's in the sixth or seventh grade is saying I'm going to be an X, but rather, I'm interested in these things. And let's see all the possibilities for if you're interested in this, what is possible. And then we went on to build more programs that allowed kids to test and try, which is really key here, testing and trying, having them figure out, maybe I like this, but is there some aspect of it that I really can't do or I don't want to do? And so when we develop these programs, testing and trying, really came in in high school, and the reason for that is by the time students leave high school. We want them to have a plan. And so it's not that again, that they have a road that's absolutely mapped out, but rather, this is the this is the path I can take to see what might come of this, to see what might come with what I love to do with what I'm good at. And can I be able to relate this to that job, that career, that pathway? Julian Alssid: Great to hear the bit about your journey and and the genesis of ASA. So. So now, what are the Could you give us an overview where you are now at ASA with the types of initiatives that you're focused on, and what are the key problems that you know you're looking to, the key challenges or problems you're looking to solve. Jean Eddy: So, you know, the initiatives that we are working on currently, you know, I mentioned the digital we have four digital programs which really bring students from the discovery phase right on through the testing and trying, you know, getting a mentor, getting an apprenticeship, understanding how to be able to get ready for to dress for success, all those kinds of things. There are many, many things kids can do there. We have about 15 million kids on our platforms at any given time. They're between 13 and 18 years old. But in addition to that, we also work with schools, school districts and states who are interested in infusing this kind of a career exploration into their into their curriculum. The biggest one I always talk about is Delaware. Delaware is the nice sized state you can get your arms around it. So we worked with a couple of other funders to basically put career exploration into middle schools in Delaware, so every kid in Delaware has an opportunity to do this kind of career exploration. But I think the biggest challenge we have is the next step is the testing and trying. Because I would have to say, I. So we need employers to be able to help us do that. But any employer will tell you, and I've talked with many, they don't have the infrastructure to be able to provide that, and sometimes they are. They are quite hesitant to get into this, because, again, they don't have the staff, they don't have the know how, and they cannot figure out how to connect with the school district with a system. So a lot of our initiatives are now working with intermediaries places who basically go in and they take care of the things that need to happen at the high school and things that need to happen with the employer, and we do a lot of funding in those respects. My favorite is the caps network. They are national, and they basically give they work with employers and they work with schools to be able to have kids have first hand experiences in how a career could actually map out in a given field. They are beyond impressive. I could talk about them all day, but there are many of them. There are also states who get involved in this, and I will pick on Rhode Island native Rhode Islander, we've worked with skills for Rhode Island for a number of years. They are great intermediaries in basically bringing employers and schools together to provide apprenticeships and internships for young people to test and try. So I think that that is, that is, I'm going to say next big Frontier, we need more opportunities to connect employers and schools in a way that makes sense, and it actually it works for everybody. Kaitlin LeMoine: That last point, you just ended on Jean right? I feel like that's where the rubber meets the road. And all of this work is like, how to make these, these relationships happen? What are you I know, you know you mentioned the intermediary work. What are some of the best practices, or like strategies that you know that are working well to bridge those gaps? Because I think that for so many you know whether, whether it's actually higher ed institutions, K 12 institutions, employers. It's about like, how do we bridge those worlds and in a scalable way? Jean Eddy: So, I think that there are a few things, getting the word out is incredibly important, thought leadership and getting people to understand or or be able to see the kinds of opportunities that are available. But moreover, the funding that is available. There are a lot of programs out there right now, and we participate in some of these funds, which basically back financially, back opportunities for employers and schools to be able to come together and do this kind of work. And one thing I didn't mention before is the amount of grant making we do, and the grant making we do has everything to do with those kinds of opportunities. Historically, we've given up between $10 and $20 million a year, and it is to fund those kind of opportunities where they have not existed before, or to grow networks that you know have started off but have not how to reach across the country, because what we're trying to do is impact kids everywhere. You know, not only in the places that I think, with the northeast, we have so many colleges and universities, we are so focused on kind of these connections, but there are parts of the country where that's not the case, and particularly in the middle of the country. You know, it's really up to us to do a better job in connecting those intermediaries who work in those places to provide opportunities for young people who otherwise are thinking, Okay, what do I do next? You know, what are my opportunities? And they're not as I would not say that there's not a rich as rich of an offering as there could be, because kids just don't know. Julian Alssid: So I get the scaling with, you know, your the digital stuff, and how that you know you've been able to reach so many young people directly, I guess my big question is, with the work, with the intermediaries, or the sort of the partnerships, how does that scale? And how do you ensure that it can live beyond the life of your grants? Like, how does this get baked in to what communities do, what educators do, what employers do, and then, how do you scale that? Jean Eddy: You know, we worked with the state of Massachusetts, and we funded a program that basically put pathways into high schools. It was one of Governor Baker's big initiatives and part of his legacy, I would have to say, the idea in doing some of these things. And we did it in Delaware as well. We did it in Rhode Island. As you start to fund these programs, you do it with the hope that you're working with policy makers who are going to encourage the state legislature to put it in the budget and have it move forward. And that has happened in every single one of these cases, I would have to say you have to have buy in, not only from the intermediary and the school and the employer, but you also need buy in with policy makers, because if they don't believe this. Yes, and they don't see, I'm going to say a road map for a state prospering. It's not going to go anyplace. But again, in the state of Massachusetts, we have an enormous shortage in the trades, construction, tech, skill trades, and we worked with the workforce council here to try and develop programs that would allow us to be able to, I'm going to say, start the pipeline for the jobs that we cannot fill and and that, I think, is really it's a problem that we have across the country. We have so many unfilled jobs right now, and I do believe that half the reason why we have that is because young people are not aware of those jobs, and we're not doing the best, the best work we could possibly do, in making sure they know it, but moreover, that they could try those things and find that they could fall in love with something that they didn't even know was existing. Julian Alssid: Interestingly, we have been working in Massachusetts on the very topic, actually, with the community college and focused on manufacturing. And it's incredible the opportunities that are going wanting because kids and their families know nothing about these roles and the paths associated. Jean Eddy: You know, just this morning, I was listening, I think it was on NPR, they were talking about the fact that there are wait lists for kids in technical high schools, and that they are trying to now impose a lottery system to let young people in, just that is such a telling update on on what is happening in this state. But moreover, in this country, we should be thinking about, how do we integrate the aspects of those vocational high schools into all of our high schools to give kids an opportunity. And I'm not saying that there aren't high schools who do that, because there are, but it usually requires either a principal or a super superintendent who has that drive and that feeling in their gut that this is what has to happen, and then they make it happen. We need more of that. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, and that combination of both of the leadership, and then, as you mentioned earlier, Gene, the financial backing as well, right to, like, especially for some of the more technical programs that require a lot of equipment and, like, lab space, right? I mean, like, the infrastructure required in some cases is is more significant than others. But like, that's another huge factor in this whole effort. One thing that I find really fascinating about the different digital solutions that ASA has built is it seems like it's a pretty low lift for schools to implement and for learners to engage with I'm curious, how do what's the split? I guess, that you see across like learners who engage with these tools on their own as individual users, versus who are introduced through a classroom like experience like, how do learners come to these materials? Maybe individually? How do they find that? Jean Eddy: So I would say, by and large, young people come to us directly. We have, obviously, connections with teachers, with superintendents, etc. And many will use our products as a way to have a hybrid experience. As far as career exploration is concerned, they are using it for that purpose. So they're basically saying, Go out to asa.org, look at this, look at that, etc. But by and large, most of it is coming from kids who come directly to us. And I think I when we first started talking, I talked about the fact that I wanted kids to have fun. So what we basically do, I'm going to say, we invade the time that young people are using their phones, which is on average, five hours a day, which is frightening to me, frankly. But we approach them and it's something that they can take it or leave it. So we go through Tiktok, Snapchat, Instagram, etc. We throw out these things. Invite kids to come in. They either do it or they don't. Most of the time, we find they do it. We have a high level of engagement, but it's got everything to do with that. They're seeing it as this is curious, this is fun, and then suddenly we're opening up another world to them, and then kids stay and so we have four platforms, and it's amazing to me that they keep going. And of course, again, it's all about fun. So I think that that is really the key to this, and what is really, really important, particularly with with young people in this, in this generation of young people, they want agency. They want... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/37415945

Holly Zanville: Mapping the Skills-Based Learning Ecosystem 07/01/2025

Holly Zanville: Mapping the Skills-Based Learning Ecosystem Holly Zanville, research professor at the George Washington University Institute of Public Policy and founder of the Learn and Work Ecosystem Library, discusses her approach to organizing information about the rapidly evolving skills-based learning landscape. Drawing from her extensive background across education, state systems, and philanthropy, Zanville explains how she created a specialized digital hub that curates resources about key ecosystem components. She explores the growing tension between degree-centric and skills-based approaches in higher education, highlighting how institutions are navigating the "both-and" reality of offering traditional degrees alongside competency-based programs. Zanville shares insights from her collaboration with the Society for Human Resource Management's new Center for Skills First Future, which aims to transform hiring practices for 100,000 employers over the next decade. The conversation examines how employers across five leading industry sectors are implementing skills-based hiring practices, while addressing the critical need for better information sharing and standardized language across the fragmented learn-and-work ecosystem. Zanville emphasizes the importance of collaboration and community engagement in building resources that serve learners, educators, employers, and policymakers navigating this complex landscape. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian Alssid: Kaitlin feels like every day the way we help people advance their learning and careers becomes more and more complex. Kaitlin LeMoine: Indeed it does, Julian. From employers rethinking hiring practices with skills based approaches to educators, redesigning learning models with AI and experiential learning, our podcast guests have highlighted many new models and cutting edge innovations, and we see these efforts impacting our consulting projects as well. Julian Alssid: Absolutely, and keeping track of this dynamic and ever changing environment is no small feat. It requires a deep understanding of what's working, what's not, and how all these interconnected pieces fit together. Kaitlin LeMoine: Which brings us to our guest today. We're so excited to be speaking with a leader who is doing just that, making sense of this intricate and ever changing ecosystem. Julian Alssid: We are thrilled to be joined by Holly Zanville. Holly is a research professor at the George Washington University Institute of Public Policy and codirector of the Program on Skills, Credentials and Workforce Policy. She's also the founder and lead of the Learn & Work Ecosystem Library. Previously, Holly co-led the national initiative Credential As You Go and served as a strategy director at Lumina Foundation. Her background includes leadership positions at state higher education systems and boards in Oregon, Washington, and WICHE, as well as academic roles at community colleges and non-traditional university programs. Kaitlin LeMoine: So without further ado, Holly, welcome to Work Forces. We're looking forward to learning more about your work. Holly Zanville: I am so glad to be joining you today. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, thank you for being with us. So as we get going, Holly, can you please tell us? I mean, Julian talked a little bit about your background, but we'd love to hear more from you about your background and what led you to founding the Learn & Work Ecosystem Library. Holly Zanville: Great. So as you already heard, my background is pretty wide ranging. I've worked in K 12, community colleges, universities, non traditional programs, coordinating boards and systems in states and in philanthropy, as the strategy director at Lumina Foundation and all those jobs really, I realized recently carry one thread, and that kind of reminds me of what I've always really cared about, and that is my long-standing interest in both information, the quality information and systems, believing that if we're going to make improvements in all of our systems, in education and workforce, we're going to have to seed these relationships and work in collaboratives. And so a lot of my work over the years has really focused on acting like a system and making improvements in systems and sharing information and collaborating. So that's a little bit of my background and what brings me, I think, to really the topic of the Learner and Work Ecosystem Library. And, you know the why. Where did this idea even come from for a library? And actually, it started with my work at Lumina Foundation, when several of the national foundations were starting to pay attention to changes in credentialing that were going on, and especially noting that 40 million some Americans who come under that title that we don't like called some college and no credential. So they had some background in college work, but they never received any credential. And we were really increasingly concerned about what we could do to help with these kinds of issues. So at that time, and this was about 2017, 2018 about 40 of the foundations, mostly national foundations actually came to a meeting to compare notes. How could we really better learn about what investments we were all making on these issues of importance, particularly around micro credentialing, was just coming to the fore around that time so that we could maybe leverage our monies to make them go farther, because we could all see what was coming in the tea leaves. So the outcome of that meeting was actually a call to action, and folks were saying, well, could we develop a map? Could we try to map out the key initiatives, the big footprint initiatives that were being funded mostly by the foundations at that time to improve our information about them, and once we maybe could get the map, maybe we could collaborate more effectively as a group of foundations. So being a person who likes system work and challenging work and mapping, et cetera, I raised my hand to work on this. And so a small number of us from a few of the foundations actually designed what a map of key initiatives might look like, and we put on the map who was working on initiatives, because who's doing the work is really important for us to know. And then we classified them into some key categories. There were actually, over a period of years, three versions of the map, and I think this speaks to how quickly changes were going on in the innovation space of the nation, and Lumina posted it at its website. There's still remnants of it at the website. And one of the things we could all see was that there were important philanthropic investments in all these areas. They were growing, because we could see the number of actual things on the map growing every year, and that there were many collaborations that were going on we were picking up among states, employers, higher ed institutions. And that one really interesting thing to us was that managing a lot of these big scale initiatives were coming from intermediaries, the third party groups that we all know that play such an important role in helping, particularly with collaborations. So this was a really interesting area I became extremely interested in, and my read of the system that we were all looking at the map was that it was going to keep growing in importance and confusion and be marked by lack of information. And so I really wanted to expand the mapping effort then so we could take this a little further. That really was not a priority of the foundation at that time. They wanted more direct funding of the innovative initiatives. And so that was when I left philanthropy to go, after 15 years, to become a research professor at George Washington University. And I kind of took it on as a personal mission to here's my I'm going to bring in FedEx as an example. So I decided it would be good to come up with a bitter airplane that could deliver needed information. And it would, but it would be a specialty airplane. It'd be like a FedEx airport with special airplanes that we'd be carrying specialized information about the learn and work ecosystem. So I started, I reached out to lots of experts around the US. I think many of them have probably been on your podcast, and we designed the special collection and called it a library, the learn and work ecosystem library. It's really a hub. It's like an airport, as it were, where we collect, we curate, we coordinate digital content about key components of the ecosystem. We think there are maybe 12 of them. And if you go to our library, you'll see what the 12 are. There are key topic reports for more in depth coverage of what some of the leading topics are going on in the ecosystem. We included those initiatives and special projects that are working to improve the ecosystem, like we did on the original map, that mostly are, I think 80% of them are probably funded by foundations. So the foundations are playing a big role, and have been in, in fueling the innovation agenda, I think, for the US. We also identified the organizations doing the work and several other features. So we opened for business our little airport in late 2022. We've been growing really quickly. Now we're using AI to help users who come to us to find information using more natural language queries, and we've been adding just two features, and then I'll stop. I'll stop here. We've entered into partnerships with other organizations. If it was FedEx, we found that people have a lot of baggage, and they need to have a place to put their information, and they don't really put it. It's easier for them to put it at a place like the library, where we can host it, and then all their members and other groups can come and see that information there, rather than putting it in a siloed website among all these different collaborators, and furthermore, we're working with a lot of organizations to test the usability of the other library. Does this really meet information needs? Because we're so early, we need to keep testing the waters about that. So we've grown from a few 100 artifacts at launch to over 1500 now we have a glossary of nearly 600 terms that are used throughout the learn and work ecosystem, and we've made that available free to organizations that want to put the glossary at their website, so that as visitors come to their website but they don't know what some of these terms mean, like, what does a micro credential mean, or what is badging and what's up skilling and re skilling, what are skills versus skills based hiring, we have all that captured, and they can put our our glossary, if they like, there and or folks can just be advised to come to our library where we have terms. Julian Alssid: Given your work now at the intersection, or should I say, the learning and learning and work airport, perhaps we'd like to talk first about the education side of the equation. And we know that one of the themes that has been taking on greater and greater prominence, and we've talked a lot about it on our podcast, is a focus on skills and competencies. And so we're interested to hear your take on how educational organizations and institutions are shifting their efforts to focus more on skills and competencies. And if you could give us an example or two that we should follow. Holly Zanville: So the library and or the airport where education is takes up a lot of space at the airport, as it should, because the preparation of folks for jobs is a very large effort that we all care so much about and is so important to our economy. So but, but to go back to something we've been witnessing for several years now, this growing dilemma for higher education, the big question, should we remain degree centric and continue our literally 200 plus your focus on college degrees as maybe the best preparation for good jobs in the US, or move to shorter term credentials of value. And I'm purposely portraying this dilemma as an either or, but we know that there's growing recognition that the answer really has to be both and. So the and the reason is that higher ed has to be closely aligned to workforce demands by both employer demands and student demands, and there are significant needs and some different needs by industry sectors. So we can't have the same answer for everybody. So degrees and licenses are essential for professional jobs in medicine, nursing, law, architecture, engineering, and a much longer list than that, but there are a growing number of other types of credentials, shorter term credentials, like certificates, badges, micro credentials, energy certifications, that they do have value in many areas of the workforce, and they're often used in which is a good thing, I think, a combination with traditional degrees like associate degrees, baccalaureate and The various graduate level degrees and the impacts of AI are changing and coming on strong, because it's really impacting job getting and job keeping in major ways. So we don't think higher ed, I don't think anyone thinks higher ed can throw away the traditional degrees they offer, but I think there's growing agreement that higher ed needs to update their offerings and expand their offerings to meet changing workforce demands through shorter term credential options. So within this dilemma, along comes the competency based education push for the last, oh, I don't know, more than a decade. And then comes the skills agenda, coming on really strong, with employers who are asking candidates for jobs, but they're also asking their own employees, do you have the right skills for the jobs we have open, show us what you know and can do. And the emphasis is really increasingly on can do. So how are we going to know when somebody has the right competence skills? And I would say that higher ed tends to use the word competencies more to define the learning outcomes that occur in higher ed programs. And employers tend to use the skills word more, but they're coming together, and those words are graying, and now everyone is using the terms back and forth across those fences. If there are actual fence lines between higher ed and important, some of us think there are, but they're coming down, and movement is rapidly approaching. So to answer your question directly about competency based, many of the higher institutions have been shifting their focus toward competencies and actually skills to better align with workforce needs. And we're noting, which we think is really interesting, that educational institutions are adopting frameworks to do this, all kinds of credentialing systems and partnerships to understand what should the new array of credentials be? And we're seeing institutions that are doing both. They're doing both, and they have a portion of their programs that are competency based, are mostly competency based, but there are other programs at their institutions that are not so what's interesting is to have both curricular models on the same campus. But there are also some institutions, but the research data shows that there's relatively few, maybe only about 15 institutions that either are entirely or mostly comps based education. So even though the conversation is rich around competency-based education, the actual number of institutions that have really gone to the major full shift, pretty few, except we know that the ones that have made the shift are very well known. And I'm just, I have a short list of them here. You know Western Governors University Capella, University of Wisconsin Extended Campus, their flexible option, Walden, Charter, Oak College, Purdue Global. And then there's some that are mostly competency based, but not entirely: Southern New Hampshire, Texas, A & M University has several Northern Arizona University, Thomas Edison and Central New Mexico Community College, Austin Community College. I won't go through the whole list, but the point is that we're in the middle of a shift. Some people have already put the landing gear down on their plane, and I think they're saying, well, we've done the areas of programs that really are competency based, like, like nursing that is, or cybersecurity that are led by national organizations that are very strong on here are the competencies in this profession. But there are other ones, particularly the liberal arts, that are not being led as much to being set up as competency based programs. So the institutes have to make their piece, and we all have to put together a system which has a little bit of a lot of things, and this is creating, I think, a lack of information about who's got what and why is this important? So once you accept the fact that differences are good and there's a good reason why we have these differences, then you move to this question of, are we creating a system that is really confusing for employers to understand, for students to understand, for policymakers to understand, for faculty. Yes, we are. We're sorry. We're all sorry about that. But in fact, it's a more difficult learn and work ecosystem now than we've had in the past. And there are some organizations that are making it a little clearer, and on the competency based side, especially, Julian, you asked for an example. I think one of the best ones is the Competency-Based Education Network, or C-BEN. They've really been growing rapidly, working with institutions that really want to understand how to do compass based education and why to do it, and what happens on a campus where you've got both-ands, how are they, how they are navigating the choppy waters. So I would say that through the kinds of workshops, webinars, training opportunities, C-BEN provides, they're a really good example on the higher ed side for competency based education. And I've already named some of the institutions that are really on that side. So I think I'll stop there, because I think that's a lot of the background, least that I think about when I, when I think about the competency based side of things with higher risk. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well and and I think what you've just talked us through there Holly shows right exactly the complexity that we're facing here, and that with this confusion, the need for a library is more and more essential. I just had one quick follow up regarding the library. Who is the primary target audience for the library? Is it professionals in the field? Is it learners themselves? Could it be both? Holly Zanville: It's all, and in fact, when we have a slide, when we do slide presentations, it has 26 stakeholder groups, and when you go to the library, you can do a search by your stakeholder group, so you could be primarily a policymaker interested in content. You could be a credential provider interested in content. You could be an employer and workforce. You could be a workforce board. You could be more aligned with the data structures around that side of the shop. You could be more of a journalist trying to understand, where do I go to get information and examples for stories. So and students we're really hoping are using the library, particularly students that might want to get a job someday working in this with the think tanks, with the research and policy think tanks, the intermediaries that I talked about where, if you're in graduate school now, and you might be in education or political science or economics, you'll get some of this information, but you are not. I just would bet no one's going... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/37204155

Steve Lee on a Coalition Approach to Workforce Impact 06/17/2025

Steve Lee on a Coalition Approach to Workforce Impact Steve Lee, CEO of SkillUp Coalition, discusses how his nonprofit technology platform connects nearly 3.5 million workers without college degrees to career training and job opportunities nationwide. Drawing from his diverse background spanning corporate law, educational technology, and philanthropy, Lee explains the coalition's "data-driven, heart-led" approach that ingests labor market data from partners and tests it with real workers to improve outcomes. He shares insights on navigating AI's impact on gateway jobs like customer service, emphasizing the shift toward skilled trades, advanced manufacturing, and green jobs as more automation-resistant career paths. Lee discusses the importance of balancing national reach with regional customization through 35 localized sites that reflect specific labor market demands, and explains how combining "air game" technology with "ground game" wraparound services creates more effective worker support. The conversation explores practical strategies for building mutually beneficial partnerships in workforce development, with Lee advocating for humility, value-addition, and collective impact as essential elements for scaling upskilling efforts and addressing intergenerational poverty. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin Lemoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. A central focus in our consulting practice and on this podcast is practically how to make meaningful connections between the various organizations and resources that exist to help people close gaps and advance their careers. Julian Alssid: Absolutely, we've seen a surge of new tech products designed to bridge skills gaps, connecting individuals with training programs and with the employers who can hire them. And key to their success are solutions that are designed for and responsive to the needs of the end user. Kaitlin LeMoine Precisely. And that's why today we're excited to dive into a conversation with a leader who is at the forefront of using technology to connect millions of workers to meaningful career opportunities. Our guest is Steve Lee, the CEO of Skill Up Coalition. Steve has a fascinating career journey that began as a corporate lawyer, then saw him found and successfully exit an educational software company and work at Bain & Company. He then transitioned to the social sector, including a significant role at the Robin Hood Foundation, before taking the helm at Skill Up. Julian Alssid: Steve brings a blend of business acumen and a deep commitment to social good, and we're looking forward to speaking with him about how to upscale efforts in a world of rapid change, especially with the increasing influence of AI. Since launching Skill Up in 2020, Skill Up's nonprofit technology platform has already connected nearly 3.5 million workers without a college degree to career training and job supports nationwide, and the coalition now includes more than 150 partners. Impressive. Kaitlin LeMoine: Truly. So Steve, welcome to Work Forces. We're so glad you could join us to share more about these impactful efforts. Steve Lee: I am so honored and thrilled to be here. Thank you both very much for the current show. I will say my family, says I'm a dork and so, true story and so anyway, just thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and looking forward to the conversation. Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. Well, as we get started, can you please tell us a bit more about your background and what led you to your work at Skill Up Coalition. Steve Lee: So as you, as you alluded to. I was in a private sector for a good chunk of, let's say, the first half of my career, but I've always sort of been interested in having some impact on the social side. I had a really good conversation with a nonprofit leader when I was in the private sector, and she said something which I thought was really interesting. She said, Steve, I've been doing this work for 50 years, and I serve young people and adults. And she said to me that when I serve young people, there's a very good chance that 30 years later I'm gonna see the same person to serve their needs. And what that struck me is this idea of not only just poverty, but this idea of intergenerational poverty, where poverty goes to multiple generations. I'm like, damn, this is not good. This is not the country I want to live in. So what the heck can we do about it? And so that's one of the main reasons I joined philanthropy, is to think about a way, in a very small way, obviously, right where I could have some impact, if you will, in a small way, on this idea of improving what I think is one of the biggest scourges in this country is intergenerational poverty and the fact that half of 30 year olds in this country now are worse off than their parents were when they were 30. You know, inflation adjusted, that is a very bad step. All right, that's what, that's what that that's what drives me with the work I do. It's why I came to Skill Up. Because I feel like one of the ways is you can, one of the ways you can address that is, if you have stable wages for good work you have stable families, you have stable kids, and the kids can do better in life. Because every parent in the world, I don't care who you are, rich, poor, you know, Democrat, Republican, urban. It doesn't matter. Every parent wants to carry do better in life, every single parent. So when we're doing a very, very bad job of that. And so that's why I take this work that we do at scope is important, and why the ecosystem is important. So that's the reason. Julian Alssid: It's really sobering when you see those stats about declining wealth, and we've got to fix this, because we've helped create this mess - our generation, the concentration of wealth. And I mean, we could go on, but tell us a little bit more about who Skill Up serves, who you're looking to serve in this kind of intergenerational approach and the range of initiatives that you've developed. Steve Lee: We are, we're primarily designed to serve STARS, if you know that terminology, those are Skilled Through Alternative Routes, which is basically folks that don't have a college degree. We have a particular focus on the lower rung of that ladder, right? Those who are maybe on public benefits, those are the most marginalized in this country. And we serve youth all the way to dos, and on this journey, I think the most important thing for this journey for us is the fact that we are a coalition, so it's actually our official name. We're not, we're not Skill Up we’re Skill Up Coalition. That's actually our IRS registered name, and that means a lot to us, because we're a small nonprofit, right? What the hell are we going to do by ourselves? Like nothing, like literally nothing, right? So we can only do something if we work together with some of our core partners. And if you go to our site, you can see some of our core partners. These are folks who are leaders in the field, and we do our best right to add value into that ecosystem. We can talk a little bit more about what value means, but the most important thing for us as an organization is to truly partner for mutual benefit. This is one of what our funders love to say, mutual benefit. It's actually pretty hard to do mutual benefit, to work with others to create collective effect. I can give you examples of that, but that is one of the most important things we can do. Kaitlin LeMoine : Please say a little bit more about that when you say mutual benefit. Let's dive in there a little bit. Steve Lee: Yeah. So let's talk about what I think is one of our key jams, right? One of the core value sets that we have, one of our core principles is to be data driven, heart led. I've always liked that term, because as a technology nonprofit, we are driven by data. Obviously, I'll talk about what that means. But everything we do, we hope, is for the benefit of workers, right? And we have workers at scale, and we've learned the time. And so one of the coolest ways that I think we work with partners is on the data side. And let me explain what that means. So we have become a platform for low wage workers, where people are coming to us to some degree with data sets, and what they want to do is they want to test those data sets with real workers to get their worker voice on whether this stuff works or not. So I'll give you some examples. There are some really interesting data sets on the employer side. Groups like American Opportunity Index, which is funded by Burning Glass in partnership with the Schultz Family Foundation. There's a Credential Value of Index, I think that's what it's called. Used to be called EQOS, which has sort of the signals of quality for training programs in America. What these programs, what these data sets have, is really, really good data, but they have no way to surface that data with real workers. And so what we're doing is we're ingesting those data sets, and then we're spitting those data sets into the arms of workers across America, using a skills platform as a vehicle to do that, and then we're learning to see what works for real workers. This is what I call heart led right? What's the worker voice? What are they telling us what works and what doesn't work? And then we're spitting that back into our partners to improve their data sets. So it all comes full circle, this idea of ingestion, spitting out data, learning from data, and going back to the original source as a full circle, that's like, really, really important, I think, in the broader ecosystem. And I think we're one of the few platforms that can actually do that right, because we have technology, we have good UX/UI, we have workers, we can send things out to, and then we can test a real scale, like 10s of 1000s, right? Within a week or two, to have statistically significant data that comes back to us that we can inform the field that's a real value, and that's what that's mutual benefit, like, we're helping our workers, right? And in theory, we're also helping the data sets. That doesn't happen all the time, like mutual benefits, actually pretty hard, but that's one example, Kwsaitlin and how we're thinking about mutual benefit, particularly around benefit, particularly around data, because I think that is probably one of our biggest jams, is the ingestion of data, plus the data driven heart led, right? The ability to access workers and get their workable voice. Kaitlin LeMoine: That's a complex space in which you're sitting to build that mutual benefit with, as you said, right, like the end users, like the people you're looking to serve, as well as with your data partners. Steve Lee: Correct. Kaitlin LeMoine: Living in the middle of that space, I imagine, is exciting and also pretty complicated. Steve Lee: You know what's interesting? What I've learned is, like, this is gonna get very wonky, but like, data is it's basically just like a bunch of fields. But what's tricky is that you have to match those fields like this is, like, wonky data stuff, and like, actually matching those fields to collect the right information to get out to the right is actually very tricky, right, because there are so many fields. So that's actually the hard work. But once you get there, it can be pretty powerful. In terms of stuff that you learn. Julian Alssid: So Steve, just sticking with this one a little bit longer. Again. Steve Lee: Sure. Julian Alssid: This is the geeking out, because I think our listeners will be very interested. We want to talk about AI and the workforce. But of course, are you using AI in this effort to then sort of mine and collate and organize this data? Steve Lee: Yeah, we're using AI, I think, so why call this idea of more stuff and better stuff? So this is like, like third grade English, right? And so what we can do with our, with our AI, is the data sets that we have, we can have more of the things that we want. And what I mean by that is that our main call to action for our users is, hey, what's the right career you have? What could work? What career do you want? What job do you want? And three, you probably need some kind of training to get the right credential to get the job. All right? So what training is available to you? So what AI can do is that it can surface up more opportunities that we wouldn't be able to surface up, but for the power of AI. So that's one, and second, we could be better at what we offer. One of the things that we pride ourselves as being high quality, and we curate all the opportunities. And the curation is done a lot by data sets, plus desk research. The desk research can be somewhat replaced by AI, right? So rather than having a human, or in conjunction with a human, you have AI to make that research better, and so you have better stuff that we show up as high quality content, as opposed to just having a human, plus data sets, plus you have more stuff, because there are some things that we're missing, because it's a big country or a small nonprofit, right? And so more stuff, better stuff is not what we're doing in terms of the things that we power. The other thing we're doing around AI is what I call horizontal integration. So as you guys know, the journey from a low wage worker starting to look for a job, to finding the job, can actually be more than just a few inches. It can be miles and miles and miles, right? It takes a long time. It takes months, sometimes years, right? And so if our users stick with us, what we can do with AI, no matter where they are in their journey, you can offer AI as a recommendation, no matter where you are. So your beginning part of the journey, AI will make some kind of recommendation to Julian saying, We think you should do A, B and C, but Kaitlin is further along in her journey and is about to interview for a job. We could offer a different AI experience. So can say, hey, you should think about doing this for an interview, things of that sort. And AI can do that almost like when you do a Google search. Now, you don't see this, you don't see the search results. You see Google AI, overview, right? That's the first thing you see. Similar concept for us, no matter where you are, you're going to get something around AI, and then hopefully that helps you drive to at&t organizations. So that's a horizontal integration, right? And the vertical is more stuff, better stuff. Julian Alssid: Are the learners, workers, whatever you're calling the clients. Are they staying with you? I mean, you've, you've now, you know, you do have this growing data set. Steve Lee: It's the trickiest wicket of a direct to consumer platform. You know, unless you're Meta or Google, it's hard for direct to consumer users to stick right. And we have the same issues as others. I always say about roughly half of our users drop off after sort of initial experience and then, but the other half stick around to some manner of form. And the first that's actually pretty good, right? As a direct to consumer, nonprofit, right? So we're actually proud with, like, the half that stick. But what our partners say sometimes, even if they come and they bounce, maybe there's value that you just don't know. They come, they browse a little bit, they leave after 30 seconds, you don't know, you don't know what value you've had. So our friend was like, okay, the fact they don't stick around for you. That's okay, because maybe they have some value just in the 30 seconds that spark an idea, and then they go someplace else. But maybe we sparked an idea. We just don't know that Julian. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and we are living at such a, you know, complex moment with respect to the labor market and the shifts we're seeing there. And I'm curious, Steve, you know, to hear you speak a little bit to that as it pertains to the platform and other initiatives you're working on as well, because I can imagine, you know, part of what you're saying about whether people stick or not, I mean, it has to for sure. That has to do with all these other shifts that are happening in the broader landscape. Steve Lee: You know, it's funny. One of the things that we think a lot, I think about a lot, is where, where's the puck going? I'm a big hockey fan of all things. And you know, as a kid. I used to follow Wayne Gretzky, and he had like, three eyes in the back of his head. He knew where the puck was going, right? And we're not that, but we try to prognosticate. And there are data sets that do this kind of stuff, right, and there's desk research. Yeah. And so to be very specific about it, in the world of AI, because that is where the puck is going. In fact, that's where the puck is. How do we have a platform that is going to serve the worker now and serve the worker two years from now and five years from now? The thing that's come up most recently, and it's fairly, fairly obvious, is the world of skills, trades, advanced manufacturing, uh, green jobs, things of that sort that have come to the fore recently, one, because there's been a lot of money that's been pumped into through the Biden administration, right? Rightfully so. But also, I think people are realizing that this might be sort of what I call the anti AI, right, as we think about, like, entry level jobs. And we've sort of, there's been research, some recent research through BGI and some others. Let's say, you know, college grads are not getting hired as much in the most recent cycle, in part, maybe because of AI, right? So we don't know what's going to be bounced right because of AI. I happen to think even though some of the jobs that Skill Up has now will be bounced because of AI, and if that's the case, then we shouldn't have those jobs anymore, right? Let's be honest. So we're trying to think about where the jobs are so we think skilled trades, advanced manufacturing, there's a piece of that. We have some pretty big efforts afoot right to do that across America, tied to some big federal federal grants with a couple of key partners, and tied to some community colleges that are doing, I think, really cutting edge work on some of the training aspects around getting people the right credential for some of these advanced manufacturing, green jobs, and I think some of the stuff will be important. Yeah, this is it takes a long time to get this to fruition. We're working on that now, as I want to call the anti AI, right? As we incorporate AI into our specific product experience. Julian Alssid: As we're trying to hone in on the future and where the puck's going. What are you learning and what are some of the challenges you're facing? Steve Lee: I think we're learning something. But what I just say, right, yeah, which I think, and this applies to Skill Up, because Skill Up's main jam is to help people get what we call gateway jobs. And the discipline knowledge that Opportunity@Work has created through their STARSs Tear the Paper Ceiling Campaign. The challenge with gateway jobs in the world of AI is, I think some of those gateway jobs ain't gonna be here. Like, I really don't right think about things like, like, a customer service rep. I'm going to use that as an example. That is, that is one of our gateway jobs, at least. I think it is right. You think that's gonna be around three years from now? I don't know. All right, let's say that's the level of scale. So I think what we're learning now is that some of those things ain't gonna be here anymore. The challenge is, if that's... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36941495

Niesha Taylor: Best Practices to Bridge Higher Ed & Industry 06/03/2025

Niesha Taylor: Best Practices to Bridge Higher Ed & Industry Niesha Taylor, Director of Career Readiness at the (NACE), concludes our three-part series with Jessica Perez from LaGuardia Community College and Bryan Quick from Abbott, showcasing how institutions and employers are successfully implementing NACE's career readiness competencies. The conversation explores practical examples of breaking down silos between higher education and industry, from LaGuardia's digital badging program that has provided 700+ students with paid internships to Abbott's skills-based hiring approach achieving a 70% intern-to-full-time conversion rate. Taylor emphasizes the critical need for faculty professional development to help students articulate their classroom learning as career-relevant experience, while Perez and Quick describe how career readiness competencies create a common language across the education-to-employment bridge. The discussion offers actionable strategies for creating supportive environments where students can confidently showcase their skills and for employers to develop comprehensive frameworks that prioritize workforce readiness over traditional degree requirements. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the third and final installment in our special mini series with the National Association of Colleges and Employers, or NACE. In our first episode, we spoke with NACE, President and CEO, Shawn VanDerziel, who provided a high level overview of the college career services and recruiting landscape. And then we dove deeper into the data in our second episode with Mary Gatta, who leads naces research efforts. Julian Alssid: Now in this third episode, we'll explore how colleges and employers are optimizing academic programs, career services, and recruitment practices for our evolving economy. We're excited to be joined by Niesha Taylor NACE's, Director of Career Readiness, with a background as a former Dean for Academic Innovation and Career Success at the City University of New York's Gottman Community College and Senior Director for career pathways at the New York Jobs CEO Council, Niesha draws on her range of experiences bridging higher ed and industry in her role at NACE. In an exciting new twist for Work Forces, Nisha will join us today, along with a college and business leader who work actively with NACE to implement innovative models. Jessica Perez, Director of the Center for Career and Professional Development at LaGuardia Community College -- my former employer, too, Jessica, we'll have to talk about that -- and Bryan Quick, Director of Global University Relations at Abbott. Jessica Perez: To give a bit more background, Jessica oversees the SOAR Experiential Learning Program, the Almezzi Foundation Career Fellows Program, CUNY Career Launch, Spring Forward and several other internship programs at LaGuardia. She's also an adjunct assistant professor at Lehman College and a Career Research & Development Consultant for Virginia Peninsula Community College. And Bryan is the head of Global Early Careers at Abbott, responsible for a worldwide team accountable for the design and delivery of the enterprise strategy to attract and recruit next generation talent. In his role, he oversees a global team dedicated to building strong partnerships with universities and managing early talent engagement programs. Jessica and Bryan are both involved with NACE, serving on various committees and in leadership committee roles. So welcome to you all. We're excited to have you with us for today's conversation. Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. So as we jump in today, Niesha, we'll start with you. Can you please tell us more about your background and your role at NACE. Niesha Taylor: I think the sort of critical first chunk of my time that makes sense to mention here is that I worked in higher education for many, many, many years, always with a focus on increasing access and really expanding economic mobility for the City University of New York students. I came out of K through 12 background, so I've always been thinking about that, that access point, and helping students become more successful and really get the most out of their college opportunities. In the last couple of positions I had, I worked on a variety of grants and initiatives that really worked to integrate career thinking into higher education. That actually started with Jessica Perez. I'll say she kicked off all of my thinking in this area. Gave me the sort of sort of background tools. That's the first time I heard of NACE and learned a little bit about the NACE career competencies, which I'm sure we'll talk a lot about in today's conversation. So really helping students see how they're learning and academic experience and beyond academic experience, were things that were really relevant to mention and put forward in connecting into their first career opportunities. So as that happened for me in higher education, I got deeper and deeper into the commitment to helping students really see that next step beyond college. In the role that I had at Guttman Community College, I kind of learned more and new ways of connecting career thinking into the classroom. Working with faculty quite a bit, which was really where I started to do a lot of faculty professional development to help them see how to bring the academic experience, sort of in connection, or bridging into the world of first jobs and first interviews for students. As I headed into the New York job CEO Council, my first step outside of higher education, it made me really understand how siloed higher education can be, and how much more we need to connect with employers and really help students see that bridge more clearly, take those steps more directly. And so that's really kind of what landed me at NACE is kind of building that firmer stance for students understanding how their learning connects into the first step into career. So NACE has developed itself in this area of career readiness, and again, that connects to this idea of understanding core competencies, those competencies that employers are looking for. I'd worked with those so much over the last stretch of years, and had started to work with NACE in building an assessment tool for those career competencies. And that kind of walked me towards the experience of starting, as you know, working with NACE full time and doing a lot of faculty professional development and really connecting into our employer partners to see how NACE competency development could really be developed across that bridge into employment. Yeah, I think that's kind of the sort of core story there and and really, the area that I oversee is really called Career Readiness and and connects down into the focus on those competencies and career learning in the classroom and beyond the classroom for students. Julian Alssid: Can you talk a little bit more about, you know, kind of how then you're, you know, what are the tools and services that that NACE offers, and you talked a bit about your faculty development work and the competency work, obviously, and and then how are you working with both educators and the employers to break down these silos? Niesha Taylor: What's interesting is that there's such a strong presence at NACE of career services professionals and leaders, and they have for many, many years, been focusing on those career competencies as a kind of foundation and a structure to integrate into various student experiences. So NACE really, has for many years worked with career services folks, and I think part of what's happening now is there's a broader awareness that this is a critical part of the college experience, and they're looking for ways to expand the professional knowledge and really tap into the professional knowledge of career services and stretch it across colleges. So what that looks like is always continuing to have deep and focused conversations with career services professionals, but help them advocate for expanding that focus across a college experience, so connecting it into academic affairs, teaching faculty about it, having program development that builds NACE competencies over time, so that it's not it really can't sit just with career services, especially because career services are typically very under resourced. They just cannot stretch. I mean, Jessica will tell you maybe some of the numbers of like, how many students her office is supposed to serve, and it is often true that there's not enough people in career services to have, like, a decent caseload of students. So NACE works a lot to help a college see how to start to integrate that career thinking across the experience, how leadership can get on board, how faculty can start to learn what's going on, and then how to build just an ethos of focus on career readiness from beginning to end of an academic experience. So that's really the higher ed side. And I think that numbers are something like 75% of the colleges we work with engage career readiness and the core career competencies, something like 30% do that really across the college. I think about 40% do it in a like department wide or stretched across a couple of departments. LaGuardia actually does a really beautiful job at it expanding, but it's, it's really rare that a college gets and really spreads it across the college experience, which is ideal for a student so NACE really brings in efforts to the college to help do that work, particularly to me, that's faculty professional development for the most part. But we also might work with, let's say, if it's focused in career services already, might expand it into advisement, for example, or take it over into student leadership work or things like that, to start to take those next steps, but it's a lot of professional development and support and community engagement to get that going. On the employer side, it's working with recruitment folks, and you'll hear this story from Bryan, more specifically, of understanding that so many colleges. Across the US are really building on this idea of of career readiness and how to engage that conversation as they're focusing and talking to students on college campuses, and then how to help them build their skills as they're coming into early, early career or internship programs at the college so that trying to sort of create the common language across higher education into employment, so that students can really leap, you know, and grow as they enter into those first layers of employment on the other side. And that work is newer to me, but really is exciting. It's, you know, you'll hear this story, but it's there are so many employers that I've spoken to are really grabbing this idea and being able to tell the story better for students as they're bridging over into employment as well. Great. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, thank you so much for explaining at a high level how you go about doing this work across higher ed institutions and with employers. And so we're excited to dive into a couple of examples. Jessica, I guess, and Niesha, let's let's start there. Can we talk a little bit about the relationship between NACE and LaGuardia Community College, and you know, how did the relationship develop, and what have been some successes you've experienced in your work together, and some challenges or things you're working on as well. Jessica Perez: A little bit about my history when I started in higher education back in 2009 I think I'm aging myself now, but that's when I first was introduced to NACE being the Assistant Director of Career Services at Bronx Community College, which is also part of the City University of New York. And my involvement started it very simple as resources, right access to professional development, really being up to date with industry trends, that was really the goal of being involved with NACE and then let's fast forward to my role at LaGuardia Community College. When I first started at the college about maybe a few semesters in, we started this new initiative of co-curricular transcripts, and how could we document the student experience outside of the classroom, but with that twist of career readiness. So what we started, and that was when my work started with Niesha, was that we developed digital badges at the college in different areas, but I'll speak specifically what we did in career services. We have the Career Readiness Digital Badging program, which still exists to this day. We started very small with just federal work study students, providing professional development to those students so they have a real experience versus, right, not just being in a front desk answering phones. And then what we did was we aligned the job descriptions of the students for each department to the competencies, and I also aligned with the competencies of the college. So again, we're speaking one language when it comes to competencies, right? Because competencies, the word competencies, could be very foreign to our students, and from there, it has evolved to our current SOAR Experiential Learning Program, which is funded through the LaGuardia Foundation, and students are placed in entry level internship positions related to their major. So if they're interested in accounting, we will find them an entry level accounting position, and they will do a 12 week internship, and they get paid a $2,000 stipend, and they get awarded a digital badge. So actually, I just presented on Friday with some colleagues at City Tech, which is also part of CUNY, and we were talking about these microcredentials, and the value that students find. It motivates them to want to complete the internship, and they also build self confidence for our students. So again, right to answer the original question, that's what has allowed me to continue being involved with NACE and also in various leadership roles, because I'm very passionate about the work, especially for our first generation students that is mostly our population within CUNY, and helping them find value in their own career readiness and also leverage career connectedness across the college so because really, career is we all own it right? Career services, we lead the work, but we need our stakeholders and our partners, specifically faculty, to be successful in this work, and they have been my biggest stakeholders. Julian Alssid: I'm interested to hear a little bit more about kind of the successes and challenges that you've experienced in this work. Jessica Perez: Sure. So successes I just mentioned that, right? We want to, we have a really successful internship program. We've, we've provided at least 700 students with paid internships that have earned digital badges, which have led for them to either find a second internship, I get hired at a second internship on their own because of the career readiness competencies, or the student has been hired by the employer, or even found independently, right with our resources, another job which right a couple of years ago that was unheard of for community college students, that they're completing at least two internships before graduation. That's a major success. But again, that's all thanks to right? The framework that NACE has developed that we've been able to tweak and make our own at LaGuardia. Challenges, of course, is getting buy in from across the board, right? Especially when it came to the digital badges. Not everyone... They feel that it's extra work on the student or it's extra work on them, whether it's right, whether it's a staff or faculty member. So it's really having those conversations of what is the value, especially from the student perspective. They are finding the value in this. They are finding it helpful, and it's helping them align what they're learning in the classroom in their minds, right to what they're doing outside of the classroom. Because when they're meeting with an employer and Brian, you could probably speak to this, right, they don't know how to articulate what they're learning in the classroom as experience. They say, I have zero experience. Now let's talk about the different projects you've done, research projects, service learning activities, they're like, oh, wow, I actually have a lot of experience in this area. But again, it's our job as career services professionals or higher education educators, right in general, to educate, coach, and and help students articulate these skills that they actually have. So I would say that it's a strength, but also a challenge getting students to really be able to understand that they are proficient in these skills. It's just a matter of they. I had a sorry, I'm gonna go into a little rant, but a student of mine, and actually in one of the courses I teach, didn't feel confident that they actually have skills to put on their LinkedIn. But it's a coaching and saying, Hey, what have you done in the classroom, in this in this class? Oh, you've done two presentations. What does that mean? Oh, I have communication skills. Yes, you're able to present. And he's, he's done an excellent job in doing that. So again, it's about coaching and bringing that awareness to the students, to be able to share and not feel shy, to show off everything they've accomplished. Niesha Taylor: If I could jump in here too. So I really learned about the challenges when I was first working with Jessica. We were working on a project that brought advisors together with faculty. We were doing, like an advisement team, and it was the first time I like Jessica, just like, brought her folks to be a part of those teams, and then where things went well, faculty members who had been kind of like, I would like, say, dismissive of career services under started to understand the depth of knowledge that those folks brought to the table. This happens over and over again. It's worth mentioning that, like in higher education, there are all of these hierarchies where the faculty feel that this is a side thing. It's an over there thing. And so the more we can really dispel those myths and really raise up the expertise of this group of folks that have a critical function at the colleges, I think we start to help to bring that conversation into the classroom and help because it shouldn't be that a student goes to that class that you just described, where they presented twice, but they never thought of what that real learning meant and how to bring it into the into the room. And I always use that idea of showing off Jessica, because I have met so many CUNY students who like I think there's a lot of sort of cultural barriers to that, that feeling of what you're supposed to do in an interview, which does feel like showing off or bragging. And so I had a faculty member I worked with who framed it nicely. She said she'll have her students practice talking about what they accomplished, and then she'll ask them to do it again with pride and try to put their shoulders back and say, like, what would this look like if you walk in and you just feel like I really do have an amazing set of skills here, and I'm going to tell you about it, so that articulation point is really critical. When we do faculty professional development at NACE we make sure not only that a faculty member understands how to point to those experiences that might work on a resume or in an interview, but that the student is handed the opportunity to talk about it, to say those things, to try to... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36833245

Mary Gatta: Decoding Career Trends Through NACE Research 05/27/2025

Mary Gatta: Decoding Career Trends Through NACE Research Mary Gatta, Director of Research and Policy at the (NACE), continues our three-part series exploring the intersection of higher education and industry. Gatta shares up-to-date insights from NACE's latest Job Outlook Survey, highlights the growing importance of experiential learning for the job prospects of new graduates, and discusses the significant shift from GPA-based hiring to skills-based approaches, with two-thirds of employers now implementing skills-based practices. Gatta also emphasizes the critical need for faculty involvement in helping students translate classroom learning into career-ready competencies. The conversation offers valuable research insights for higher education professionals, employers, and students navigating the evolving landscape of college-to-career transitions. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Welcome to the second interview in our three part mini series with the National Association of Colleges and Employers, or NACE. In our first interview with NACE, President and CEO, Shawn VanDerziel, we discussed the broader landscape surrounding College Career Services and recruiting. Shawn provided an overview of the field and NACE's work, highlighting its central role as a knowledge-based organization with research at its core. Today, we're looking forward to delving deeper into that research with Mary Gatta, who leads NACE's research efforts. Julian Alssid: As Director of Research and Policy, Mary brings over 20 years of experience in teaching, research and advocacy on issues of education, employment and retirement, inequity. Her work focuses on evidence based research analysis, developing solutions around economic security, education, and workforce policies. Before joining NACE, she held faculty and research positions at the City University of New York, Gottman Community College, Rutgers, University's Center for Women and Work and Wider Opportunities for Women in Washington, DC, which is, I think, Mary, where we may have actually first met. Mary Gatta: It was it was where we met, yep. Julian Alssid: Indeed. So welcome to Work Forces. Great to have you. Mary Gatta: Thank you for having me. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes. So great to be with you today, Mary. Thanks so much for joining us. And as we get going today, can you please tell us more about your background and your role at NACE. Mary Gatta: I come out of higher education. For the most part, I spent most of my career in higher ed, in faculty roles. My training is in sociology, so I have a PhD in sociology, and my study, my research, and also a lot of my teaching has really been around work and understanding the impacts of education on labor market rewards, looking at the impacts of systemic inequities and how to mitigate them. So when I joined NACE as our director of research and public policy about four years ago, I was really excited, because the work that we do in terms of our research work at NACE really focuses on how to better understand the outcomes, the career outcomes, of college graduates, how to understand it across lines, levels of equity, and also how to understand the employer side, like, what are employers looking for in recent college grads? So it was a really great opportunity to kind of marry all of that for my own career, and also we know how important evidence-based research is around career outcomes for college graduates and for university recruiters. So that has been, is, really the focus of our research work at NACE. Julian Alssid: So tell us a little bit more. I mean, at NACE, you're sitting on a real trove of data. So I know you must be in, you know, in researcher heaven, tell us a little bit about that data that you sit on, and add a little bit more about the types of specifically the types of reports you generate, and who uses them and who they're intended for. Mary Gatta: We do a variety of surveys for our research throughout the year, and we in terms of kind of our samples, we are using...we're fortunate that we're able to survey our members, both our higher education members, who mostly sit in the career service kind of field, and also our employer members who really focus on university recruiters. And what we do throughout the year is do research, sort of, on career centers, right, career services. So what's going on in higher ed? What's going on with employers coming to campus to recruit career fairs? Kind of those basic benchmarks. We also, on the employer side, look at recruiting benchmarks. So what does the recruiting cycle look like, right? What is the hiring cycle look like for college grads? What is the hiring cycle for internships? What are the projections for the upcoming graduating class in terms of entry level hires? What are employers? How are employers thinking about things like skills based hiring, for example, and skills based practices. So throughout the year, we survey both our higher ed and our employer communities on those topics. We also, once a year, do a student survey, where we send that out in the spring through our higher ed partners to students, right where we are able. You know, how are students thinking about experiential learning? What have been their experiences? How are students thinking about the job market? What have been their experiences on how many interviews have they had? How have they sourced those interviews through career fairs, except networks. This year, for the first time, we did over this past summer, a survey of early career talent. So we surveyed college grads who are one to 10 years out to kind of look a little deeper into their outcomes. How did things like experiential learning opportunities during their college tenure impact their career outcomes? And then the final little piece of data. We do is our it's not little, it's actually quite big. Is our first destination survey, which is we look at aggregated levels of what are the outcomes six months post graduation. So we're in the process now of collecting that data for this class of '24 and then that report will be out in the fall. Kaitlin LeMoine: So you are busy, you're there's a lot you're collecting from a lot of different stakeholders, and really, living at the intersection of these worlds is really fascinating. Can you tell us? I mean, there's so many different directions we could go in this conversation. But given that you've recently conducted the job outlook for 2025 can we start there? Like, what have you learned? Mary Gatta: Yes. So we have just released, this is hot off the press, our Job Outlook Survey, which is a survey of our university recruiters of employers about what the job outlook looks like for the class of 2025. And we do this survey twice a year, I should say once in the fall, and getting those projections and then again in the spring. So what we are seeing now from our very, very hot off the press data is that right now, college hiring, college graduate hiring, is expected to be about flat, right? We're just seeing about a .6% increase. And just to put this in a little context, in comparison, in the fall, when we surveyed our employers, their projections was they were expecting hiring to increase over 7% from last year from the class of '24 levels. So I think that's a really important data point that we now that we're into the spring, and we're seeing basically a flat increase, a flat hiring projection, really not much of an increase from last year. When we go a little deeper into it, we see that about 65% of the employers in our survey intended to just maintain last year's hiring level, and a little less than a quarter expected to increase that. And just related to that, we do an internship survey every year looking at the benchmarks and the hiring and in our internship survey that we conducted just this past winter, we saw that employers were expecting to bring in fewer interns this year than they did last year. They are projecting a decrease in about 3% in intern hiring. So that's sort of an early sign that there might be some softening going on around hiring, because typically our job outlook projections and our internship projections felt like kind of run or pretty much aligned. So where that's sort of just some other interesting point that we're seeing right now. Julian Alssid: Mary, can you? Can you tell us a little bit of what you're saying by industry? I mean, are there particular, is there anything that jumps out at you with those terms? Mary Gatta: Yeah, no, we're kind of seeing it pretty comparable across industries, and so I don't think what we're seeing specifically in terms of industry, it seems to be relatively steady overall. When we look specifically at some industries, we are seeing some hiring projections with increasing around wholesale trade industry, management consulting, and transportation, and some decreases, larger decreases In chemical manufacturing, like pharmaceutical manufacturing, computer and electronics manufacturing, and motor vehicle manufacturing. But of course, with any industry analysis, you know, our Ns are really important here, so I would just take that a little bit into consideration, but that's pretty much what we're seeing. Kaitlin LeMoine: It's interesting to hear you speak about what sounds like a separate survey done around internships, but seeing that there's also a slight decrease there. And yeah, I feel like we're hearing kind of across the landscape the importance of experience and going into the job market with experience. I'm curious just to hear your thoughts. Mary Gatta: We did a survey about two years ago, on employers, and 80% of employers told us the best return on investment they get for recruiting strategy is internships. And further to that, in our job outlook, we collect data on using the GPA as a filter. So what that means is our employers using the GPA to filter out college grads and back in 2019, before COVID, about 75% of employers said, yeah, they're using the filter. The GPA is a filter. Now we're seeing that decrease to about anywhere between 30 and 40% of employers. And what's replacing that (and it's even for employers that are still using the GPA) is experiential learning, so having internship experience, work experience, and also being able to articulate your skills. So I think even though we're seeing this dip in internship and projections of internship hiring, experiential learning writ large, is really important as a recruitment strategy. And then just added on to that in our early career talent survey that we conducted over the summer, we ran the analysis of students who did some type of experiential learning, whether it was an internship, whether it was undergraduate research, whether it was work, study, study abroad, and those who did not. And what we found in the first one to three years after graduation, those who were experiential learners had more jobs, career satisfaction, saw a higher value to their higher ed, and had an average of $15,000 higher salary. We very much have consistently seen in our research the importance of experiential learning, coupled with (and experience learning is a great way to do this) being able to fully articulate what are the skills that you're learning, be it in the classroom or in a co curricular. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, well, that's it's really, I appreciate you broadening the lens on internships to really be about that experiential education piece, and the recognition that maybe it does come from an internship, or maybe it comes from your involvement with a student activity or a club or leadership experience, or what have you. So I think that's a really interesting and important call out at a time where experiential education just feels so important to kind of demonstrating skill sets, right? And being able to articulate. Mary Gatta: Yeah, being able to demonstrate skill sets. And also, I mean, there are other important benefits. Think about social capital, type benefits, right? Access to mentors, networks, you know, kind of an understanding of work. All of that is really important that comes from experiential opportunities. Julian Alssid: Looking beyond the job, the job outlook report, can you speak a little bit more to some of these trends that you're seeing that are sticking out in following the tracking of, you know, skills, skills based hiring. Love to hear more about that, what you're seeing and how that ties back to all of what we're talking about. Mary Gatta: What we're seeing in our research for about the past two years now is that when we survey our employers, if they're using skills based hiring, almost two thirds of them say they are. They're using skills based hiring at some point in the recruiting process, 90% of those employers say they're using it at the interview stage, and two thirds say they're incorporating skills based hiring in the screening process. So another three quarters also said that they've developed skills based job descriptions, for example, and more than half use a kind of a skills based interview rubric. And then obviously assessments kind of play a role here too, that we know. And about 40% of our employers created internal assessment tools to assess skills, and another quarter or so use external created tools. So I think the skills based hiring. I mean, the fact that two thirds of our employers are saying they're using it at some point, shows it's really important, and it's really important that college grads, and that we help prepare college grads to be in an interview, in a have a resume and a cover letter that is focused around skills based hiring, right? And that incorporates those practices. And this ties also to what I said earlier about the decline of the GPA, right? So experiential learning is part of that right? Employers are looking for experiential learning. But also employers tell us that they really do want students to be able to articulate their skills and competencies, so and be that you know in their interview, be that through their descriptions, etc, through that a work portfolio. That is really important. Another, you know, critically important thing that employers are telling us to be helping prepare students and college grads for that will help give that, get them prepared, and give that and for it like up. Julian Alssid: So then, how do these trends kind of shape the advice and the guidance that nice provides, you know, career services professionals and students and employers. Mary Gatta: Yeah. So I think our resource is helpful, you know, across the board, right? So when we're able to get our data, whether it be around skills based hiring the GPA from employers, higher ed career service centers, faculty, staff, etc, are able to then incorporate that into their workshops, into their curriculum in the classroom, right? So having that knowledge of what employers are looking for from amongst college grads will help them maybe adapt syllabi, for example, to align course outcomes with competencies, career readiness competencies, right? So the students can then kind of share with a prospective employer. You know, in my sociology course, for example, I was able, I learned sociology and theory and methods, but I also developed critical thinking skills by engaging in a research project. Or I developed, I worked in teamwork on a group project on X, so that data is really important. The data also from our student survey. For example, we ask our students, what are they looking for in jobs, like, what are the benefits they're looking for? What are the attributes of the job, you know. And overall, our data shows they're looking for economic security type benefits, right, job security, for example. So that helps to inform employers right when they're recruiting students on what the graduates are looking for and what college grads are looking for. So that is really, I think, helpful. I think what's exciting about our early career talent survey, for example, is for the first time, we were able to kind of look at, you know, in, you know, in a self reported way. Obviously, all the data from students is self reported. But how, for the data around experiential learning, for example, how we're able to see a correlation between taking or participating in experiential learning opportunities during your college years and the impact on your early career. And that's informative for students. That's informative for parents to talk with their students, to talk with their children about. So I think that's really also helpful. And, you know, we also have, you know, compensation guides, for example, internship compensation guides that are helpful for employers to sort of gauge, you know, intern pay. We do a salary survey every year, and I should say, our first destination survey, which is the survey that we have on, what are, what are the outcomes six months out, that is open to the public, so that is not behind a paywall at NACE. And you can, we have a dashboard, and you can filter that by type of, you know, type of school region, the northeast, the southeast, etc, the west. And that can also help you think about by major. So it gives you, gives students, it gives, you know, everyone really a sense of, you know, how, what are the outcomes across different whether it's geographic variables, types of Carnegie classifications, etc. So I think you know, college outcome data is really important, because obviously it helps to inform a student's decision about their major, their career path, but it also helps inform both employers and higher ed professionals about the each other, right? Because they're both really important part of the college recruiting. Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely Mary, and I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about how kind of some of these shifts that are happening, like, for example, when you raise skills based hiring or an emphasis on internships, I'm curious to know. I mean, given your years in this space, what are some of the trends you've kind of seen shift pretty significantly over time. And in addition, I mean, you know, what are those shifting? Because when you've seen those things shift over time, what does that make you think about future state, you know, where we are now and where we're headed? Mary Gatta: One of the things, I think, is, and it's something we're working on at NACE, is really engaging faculty in these conversations, connecting career services and faculty more directly. We do know from our student survey that students go to their faculty for career advice. You know, speaking as a former faculty member, you know, we need to help ensure that our faculty are able to connect the amazing work that we're doing in the classroom in our disciplinary area with careers, right? And that work, you know, really requires us not to really change our syllabi significantly in any way, but, or what we're teaching differently in any way, but what it really does, it just kind of overlay on, you know, what are the I'm learning these sociological skills, right? Or I'm learning these skills in biology, but what, how does it, how do I help my students translate that to in an interview? How do I help my students connect that? How do I engage in some type of experiential learning with my students in the classroom on that? So I think we are seeing more and... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36727050

Shawn VanDerziel: NACE’s Role within Higher Ed & Industry 05/20/2025

Shawn VanDerziel: NACE’s Role within Higher Ed & Industry Shawn VanDerziel, President and CEO of the , kicks off a special three-part series exploring the crucial intersection of higher education and industry. Drawing on his extensive experience in HR and recruitment, VanDerziel discusses how the evolving economy is reshaping entry-level hiring practices and the growing importance of skills-based recruitment. He highlights the challenges facing both employers and higher education institutions, including the “language gap” that prevents students from effectively articulating their skills to employers. VanDerziel also examines how AI is transforming both recruitment strategies and career services, drawing employers back to campus recruiting while offering new opportunities for understaffed career offices. The conversation offers practical strategies for helping students translate their academic experiences into workplace-relevant skills, ultimately strengthening the vital bridge between post-secondary education and meaningful employment. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian. We've spent a lot of time on this podcast exploring the connections between higher ed and industry. Among many topics, we've discussed experiential learning, skills based education, business, higher ed partnerships and the impact of AI. We've examined how colleges are continuing to adapt to workforce needs and how innovative collaborations are aligning academic programs with evolving career opportunities. Julian Alssid: That's right Kaitlin, and we're excited to share that we've partnered with the National Association of Colleges and Employers, or NACE, for a special three part mini series focused on a really critical piece of the higher ed-industry connection. Kaitlin LeMoine: For our listeners who may be less familiar, NACE is the leading professional organization for career services and university relations and recruiting professionals. As described on their website, NACE empowers and connects the community of professionals who support, develop, and employ the college educated workforce. Julian Alssid: This series will examine the work happening at the crucial intersection of learning and work in three parts. First, we'll discuss the broader landscape surrounding college career services and recruiting. Then we'll explore NACE's latest research, including projections for the class of 2025, and finally, we'll look at how leading colleges and employers are putting these insights into practice. To kick off today's conversation, we're honored to be joined by Shawn VanDerziel, President and CEO of NACE. Kaitlin LeMoine: Shawn, thanks so much for joining us today. We're excited to have you on this podcast. Shawn VanDerziel: Well, thanks for inviting us. I'm excited to be here with you all. Kaitlin LeMoine: So, Shawn, as we jump in today, can you please give us some background on yourself and what led you to NACE. Shawn VanDerziel: Sure I've had a windy road to my current position. I'm going to start back way back into college and move quickly through my career, so you can see the perspective by which I approach my work. I graduated from a large state school with my undergraduate and had no idea what I was going to do with my degree, and I had an opportunity to move to Chicago afterwards, which was a great move for me. And I found my first position working in college admissions, student enrollment, which was a natural for me, because in college, I was one of those overly involved students. I was a first generation student, so I didn't have the same resources as as many others may have had, and and wasn't quite sure how to approach my job search, etc, but I knew some things from my college experience, such as like giving campus tours, working with the admissions office, leading student groups, and I found my way into admissions. It was a great way to start my career. Worked my way up, and I got really burned out, and but what can I do? I was so tired of traveling all the time, being up until 10 o'clock at night, going to college fairs at high schools, all of those things. And so I thought, how can I transition these skills into something else? And I thought about recruiting, recruiting employees. So I was recruiting students. Why couldn't I recruit employees? And I found an organization that was really interested in me because of my connection to college students. They were very interested in connecting with college students to their employment opportunities. It was the first time that an outsourced service. Well, I should say, Fortune 500 company, utilized a outsourced service to fully take over the recruitment function. And so I worked for a company called Norrell Corporation, which was a billion dollar staffing company at the time, and we took over Bank of America's recruiting function for their Midwest region because they were expanding banks. So they were opening over 100 banks throughout the Chicagoland area in a period of about a year and a half. And I started as the recruitment manager, hiring all of these folks who are going to work in these banks, particularly through their management trainee programs and for tellers. And they wanted college students to be involved with that. So I was back on college campuses, looking for those students. Well again, I got really burned out, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the i being an outsourced service is a no joke kind of job. And I thought again, like, how can I transition this? And I already had the recruitment experience. I had always wanted to work at a museum, and finally, I had the skill to actually do something in a museum, and that was to work in a human resources office within a museum which is very niche, but I found a job and that I could apply for, and I actually got the job. And so I spent almost 25 years at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, which is one of the world's largest natural history museums, and I worked my way up from a human resources rep doing recruitment and employee relations to becoming the Chief Human Resources Officer, Chief of Staff. And I oversaw lots of different departments over time, including our IT department, our education department, marketing for a short while, and also oversaw our Board of Trustees and the functions related to that. While I was at The Field Museum, I built a really large internship program that included over 200 interns every summer. And that experience led me to NACE, the National Association of Colleges and Employers as a volunteer, I became a volunteer leader and eventually the Chair of the Board of NACE. Over a decade ago, when the executive director of NACE was about to retire, I became a part of the search process, and was lucky enough to actually be offered the job at the end of that executive search process. So five years ago, I started as this President and CEO of NACE, and am so delighted to be representing this organization to the world. Julian Alssid: Always so great to hear peoples' origin stories. And so tell us a bit more about NACE. So give us an overview, if you will, Shawn and and then the role that nice really plays at the sort of intersection of higher ed and industry. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, simply put, that's exactly what we do. We bridge post secondary education to employment. We're all about outcomes and equitable outcomes for all students who pursue post secondary education. What that means on a day to day basis is that we are a membership association that represents folks who work on college campuses, mostly in the career services offices. So we represent every type of college and university, small, large, private, public, community college, four year, you name it, that's about two thirds of our members. One third of our members are the employers who go into college campuses and recruit college students for employment opportunities, for full time internships, co ops, apprenticeships, you name it, the full gambit of opportunities. We represent close to 3,000 organizations, and over 17,000 almost 18,000 individuals are a part of the association. Kaitlin LeMoine: Wow. Yeah. So this is, this is an extensive operation you have going on, and I would imagine, thank you. Thank you for the background you provided, because it just feels like, wow, you're drawing on, I'm sure, all the different skills and experiences gathered over the years, especially both on the college recruitment side and then on the employer recruitment side as well. It's quite striking. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And one of the things that on important work, really important work. And we're not insular, so meaning, like we just don't do things for our members. We do things for the public at large, so that they understand what's happening with the outcomes of students. So at the center of everything that we do is research. We're a knowledge based organization, so we're able to study the employment market from a variety of perspectives. We can see what's happening at college campuses to prepare students for employment opportunities. We can talk with students about what they're looking for in their jobs and how they're being prepared for jobs in their careers, and we talk to the employers about what they're looking for and how those other two pieces need to evolve to meet the growing and demanding needs of the workplace of the future. Kaitlin LeMoine: Amazing. So with all that being said, given the rapidly shifting environment that we're currently operating in this very dynamic space, we'd love to dive into a couple of different areas that you just that you mentioned, and that NACE raised recently as part of a recent more environmental scan. I believe you posted about it on LinkedIn not too long ago. So one question we have is, first, how do you see the current economy and economic outlook reshaping how employers are hiring entry level talent, and how, with a different lens how colleges are preparing those learners for success as well. Shawn VanDerziel: What we know right now is that the employment market is contracting so there are fewer opportunities for college graduates to join the workforce as compared to, let's say, two or three years ago, and that is from general full time employment all the way through to internships. With that we also know that employers are continually telling us that there's a gap between what college students offer and what they're looking to hire. So they have, they have made a bunch of shifts in their hiring and how they hire, which is no different than the general employment landscape. So we keep hearing about skills based hiring. Well, this has caused employers, particularly with early talent to really focus on that skills based hiring. So what they're saying is, is that in the old days, they would look at students who had a particular major, and they would look to see what their grade point average is as a starting place for the hiring process, and today, they're telling us for some jobs, we will do that, particularly highly technical jobs that require technical skills. So if you're going to be an engineer, Well, you certainly don't want someone working on your airplane who didn't get good grades, right? So you want to know that they're the top of their class because they have the knowledge to do the job. So they might still be screened by GPA. But if I'm looking for someone who's going into a management trainee program of some sort, that's more of a generalist or etc, I might think a little bit more broadly. I don't necessarily have to have someone who has the highest GPA. What I want is someone who has the skills and competencies to do the job. So how am I then going to find that person? Well, I have to substitute something in there to screen that person by we know from talking to employers that work experiences in general are very important to them. So anytime a student can demonstrate work experiences, and they can list what they actually gained in skill or competency in that work is super important, and they look for internship experience, either internship experience with them as their that student's employer, or they look for industry experience. So did the person have an internship in something that's closely aligned? And those are the students that they're saying they probably have the skills to do the job. They're also, of course, doing things like keyword searches and and using AI as part of part of the recruitment process. But they're really trying to dig down to find students who are going to succeed long term, and that's also one of the reasons that they invest so much money, particularly large companies, into internship programs, because we know that internship programs are the number one return on investment for employers from a recruitment perspective, the cost value is there for them. They know that they can convert at least 50% of those interns into being full time employees. They know that when they hire that student who starts as an intern, they're going to be with the company, more likely a year later and more likely five years later. We know that we've got that that data data to back it up, so the return on investment is really there. So we're finding more and more interest from employers and and partnering with schools to make sure their internship programs are solid. We're also finding that they are returning to campus, so they've been doing hiring on the web for quite some time. They've been focusing on it virtually, but they're also finding a need to get back in person so that they can weed through some of the talent a little bit more quickly. Julian Alssid: That's so interesting that they're they're coming back. Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, absolutely. And AI has a lot to do with that, and we certainly can talk more about AI and how that's impacting everything, but there's an impersonalization that's happening, and there really is a business case for for getting back on campus and finding that talent. Julian Alssid: Yeah, so before we go into AI, which definitely we want to hear more about, it's all the rage, as you may have heard, interested to talk a little bit more about the skills based practices, because there's been some written about how... The Burning Glass Institute and Harvard Center on Workforce wrote a piece a few months ago, which, of course, could be ancient history at this point, that companies were not picking up so much on on skills based practices. And so I'm interested to hear your take on that. You know, I get it with respect to the jobs where they're they are looking for skills. But how is it? Are they integrating this more broadly into their organizations? Are you seeing that? Shawn VanDerziel: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. So employers in our surveying do say that they, the majority of them, are doing some type of skills based hiring. Where they are doing it is either through keyword searches as an example, in screening the resumes through automated systems or the the other bulk is through behavioral based interviewing questions. So when a student actually lands an interview, being able to talk through with them what they have actually accomplished, and what they have the ability to be able to do based upon the skills and competencies that they've gained. And so by providing those concrete examples, they're able to kind of dig through that. But it also goes back to what I was mentioning just a few minutes ago, which is around they're kind of substituting when they say skills based hiring, what we say academically doesn't necessarily match what employers are doing logistically. There's always this gap between industry and higher ed and the language. And this is a really good example. And so when, from an academic perspective, we think of skill, we think, well, gosh, you're looking for someone who has great verbal speaking skills, right? You can do public speaking. Okay, great. So then, how do you screen for that? Well, what are those employers going to do to find that they're not going to put a test in place to have every candidate come through and do some kind of speech, right? That's not what they're going to do to get to that skill. What they're going to do is they're going to look on that resume and say, oh, gosh, did this student have an internship? And in that internship, did they use their verbal communication skills? Did they designate that on there? So if that skill is not listed, the employer isn't going to find it as a starting place, and then they're not going to be able to dig deeper on it when they get them into an interview. So this comes full circle to what's happening on campuses and preparing students to be career ready, and bridging that employment because we have an onus in higher education with these students to help them to articulate their skills and their competencies in a way that an employer can translate it and employers speak a totally different language. They want the shortcut. They want to get to the candidate in the fastest way possible. So they are going to put any mechanism in place to do that. And so it behooves us to help those graduates to be able to articulate it in every which way, all of the experiences that they have, right? So it doesn't even have they can come from unexpected ways. It could come from student activities. It could come from work study. It could come from a whole variety of places that a student may have obtained skills and competencies throughout their college career. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, it's really interesting to hear you talk about the language gap that exists Shawn and kind and the difference between, you know, maybe how, on the academic side, we describe a skill, and then the shortcut language that employers might use, I feel like that's, that's an area that we've I feel like has, you know, it's been around for for so long now, and it feels like there's just, there's more and more great work happening around how to close that gap. And you know, I think that if we're going to turn to the conversation of AI, it seems like there's some really interesting work there that might be able to support some of the closing of those gaps. But then there's also some new challenges that emerge as well. So would love to transition over to talk a little bit more about AI and how what you're seeing from the perspective of both use on the employer side with respect to recruitment and hiring, and also when we think about career services and preparing learners for really bridging that gap between post secondary and employer. Where is AI, you know, used well, where is it less effective? And you know, where do we still have work to do? Shawn VanDerziel: I'll start with the employers. So as I mentioned earlier, employers are using it for screening, most definitely, and they've been doing that for a long time, using various AI technologies to help them screen resumes. But an interesting thing is happening right now, which is because of the explosion of AI, there are some employers that are seeing an explosion of resumes hitting them, and because of these bots that are out there, and there are fake candidates that are hitting employers by the hundreds of thousands. And there are job seekers who are literally sending out thousands of resumes at a time. And so when that happens, an employer... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36631050

Ellie Bertani: Driving Social Impact & ROI in Philanthropy 05/13/2025

Ellie Bertani: Driving Social Impact & ROI in Philanthropy Ellie Bertani, President and CEO of GitLab Foundation, discusses the foundation’s unique approach to philanthropy that prioritizes ROI, risk-taking, and speed to support economic mobility initiatives. Drawing from her cross-sectoral experience in nonprofit, public, and private sectors, Bertani explains how the foundation measures impact by tracking how every dollar invested aims to generate at least $100 in additional lifetime earnings for people living below a living wage. She shares success stories from a portfolio of over 120 grants across Colombia, Kenya, and the United States, highlighting investments in areas like green jobs, short-form credentials, and technology infrastructure. Bertani also discusses their Learning for Action Fund, which helps grantees build monitoring and evaluation capacity, and offers practical advice for nonprofits on becoming more outcomes-focused through agile, data-driven approaches to program design and implementation. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian Alssid: On the workforces podcast. We feature a range of companies and organizations offering various programs, products, and initiatives that live at the nexus of work and learning. Some are funded through public dollars, other through private investments, and we don't always dive into those details in our conversations. However, today we're taking a slightly different approach and speaking directly with the leader of a foundation that's focused on supporting a range of innovative organizations seeking to solve significant challenges. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, Julian, we're looking forward to this conversation. The mission of the GitLab Foundation is to improve lifetime earnings through access to opportunities by supporting organizations in a number of different focus areas. The Foundation seeks to have impact in three different geographic regions, Colombia, Kenya and the United States. The foundation's focus on ROI is particularly distinct. They pay close attention to how their dollars contribute to the total lifetime earnings for low income families. Julian Alssid: Yes, and at a time in which we're navigating significant change in the world of work and learning from policy shifts, economic uncertainty, the rapid advancement of AI, we're looking to dive deep into a conversation with the President and CEO of GitLab Foundation, Ellie Bertani. We'll discuss how they monitor and measure impact and ensure that every dollar spent drives true and lasting change. Kaitlin LeMoine: With a background in the nonprofit, public and private sectors, Ellie brings a shared value cross-sectoral approach to drive sustainable impact. Prior to joining the GitLab Foundation, Ellie spent 10 years in the private sector with roles at Wells, Fargo and Walmart, and much of her work focused on frontline worker economic stability and mobility. Earlier in her career, Ellie spent nearly 10 years in the nonprofit and public sector, including positions with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the US, State Department, Third Sector Capital Partners and Rotary International. Ellie, thanks so much for joining us for today's conversation. We're so excited to have you with us. Ellie Bertani: Oh, I'm so grateful for the invitation. It's great to be here. Julian Alssid: Yes, Ellie, thank you so much. And if you would tell us about your background and what led you to GitLab Foundation. Ellie Bertani: As you can tell, my background is a mix of 10 years in the nonprofit and philanthropic space early in my career, and then 10 years in the private sector, and I've really tried to combine perspectives of what makes each of those sectors impactful and what can contribute to drive social change into GitLab Foundation, as we have launched it and founded it two and a half years ago. I think in particular, we're trying to say, what are the most important factors that drive great investment in the private sector, some approaches from venture capital in particular, that we think, when translated into a philanthropic setting, can really help us make evidence based smart decisions, help us move really quickly as an organization, and help us find these really sort of diamonds in the rough jewels of projects or organizations that have great new ideas that can really help people who need economic mobility get money into their pockets and move up the ladder. Kaitlin LeMoine: So you're starting to take us in this direction, Ellie, but can you provide, I know we said a little bit about the GitLab Foundation, but can you know you provide more of a background on on an overview of the foundation, and really what makes your investment strategy unique? Ellie Bertani: We are a global, independent, private foundation, as you said, working in three markets today. We have a mission to improve lifetime earnings through access to opportunities. And we really think about economic mobility pretty broadly. We think there are tremendous number of factors that can help support an individual to grow their earnings over time. Some of those supports may be skills development and workforce training programs. Some of those supports may be things like early education and earlier in their lives, their access to great opportunities at younger ages, and some of those may be access to technology solutions that can help them navigate or find new opportunities as they're working through their lives. But we really take I think there are three different things that make our investment approach a bit unique in philanthropy, first is our focus on ROI. Here we estimate and track the impact of every investment that we make using a unique what we call North Star return on investment methodology. That means for every dollar that we invest, we seek to drive at least $100 in additional lifetime earnings for people who live below a living wage. We seek out solutions that lead people to pathways to prosperity, and we recognize that it's really important to have financial stability as a foundation to drive economic mobility. The second thing that is a bit unique about us is we have a pretty high risk tolerance. We believe that philanthropy is in a unique position to take risk and test out new social innovations in a way that others, for example, the public sector, really can't, since they're using taxpayer dollars. And so building on that unique capability, we are willing to bet on unproven ideas and also to invest in our grantees' ability to build evidence of whether their ideas work, and also to learn through iteration how their ideas can be improved. And I think this, this ability to seek out risky projects, is something that we would encourage other philanthropies to do as well. And then the third thing that we do that is a bit different is we really move with speed. We believe in getting capital as quickly as possible to organizations who are driving change. That's why we've designed our processes to be as grantee friendly as possible, asking for just enough information to help inform our decision making and make some good bets. And this, I think, is demonstrated by the fact that over our first two years, we've made over 120 grants and moved almost $35 million quickly to high potential ideas. So that's what really, I think makes this difference. Julian Alssid: Well, so Ellie picking up on that. So you have this, you've developed rapidly, then pretty big portfolio. Well, how do you develop maybe a little bit more on that? And how do you then monitor this portfolio that is in different focus areas and has different kind of time and impacts horizons? Ellie Bertani: How we develop the portfolio is very much sort of a building upon the scientific method. We lay out a series of hypotheses of what we think is important, what is driving the labor market? For example, in the United States, where do we see opportunity and growth, and where can we make bets in that space? So for example, last year, we made a lot of bets in the green jobs space, as you might imagine, when there was significant industrial policy and investments in the CHIP and IRA acts that were really fueling growth in the energy sector and other sectors. So where we think we can make a good bet and also see the potential maybe to leverage other dollars, government dollars or other foundation dollars, we think we'll get a higher return on investment, that's one example. We're also making a pretty big bet in the short form credential market, college degrees aren't for everyone. Lots of people are turning towards shorter form training programs, as you all know quite well, but there's not yet a lot of evidence for which of those programs are the best, which deliver skills that employers are really seeking, which will really drive increased income for people. And so we're actually investing in helping make that market have a clear signal of value. That is to identify which programs are actually the best. And we've made some big investments in in that work. But that's all built on this hypothesis that if we can solve that problem, it will really drive earnings for potentially millions of people here in the United States. So that's a little bit about how we develop our portfolio around certain hypotheses that we will learn over time if they're working or not. In terms of monitoring our portfolio of projects, I think again, what makes us a little bit unique is, first, we work directly with grantees to tailor grant requirements, because we see economic mobility as having lots of inputs, lots of ways to drive improvements. Some programs maybe one year long, and we'll be able to build something quickly and see results quickly. Often, technology projects are like this, you can really see quickly if they're working or not. Sun like skills training programs take multiple years to understand if they're working or not. And so we we adjust the time periods, the amounts given, etc, and try to be very flexible with our grantees, allowing them also to adjust mid project if they need to go in a new direction, and then for monitoring and evaluation. You know, most funders don't support their grantees in efforts to measure their impact. We understand that those investments are important, that it can be complex, costly and high effort to conduct robust impact measurement. And so we actually. Have a fund supporting grantees to do just this. We launched it last year. It's called our Learning for Action Fund, and in its first iteration, and invested in 12 grantees from our portfolio to build their monitoring and evaluation capacity to both improve their own program designs by capturing feedback from their participants and allowing them to iterate their programs and to build evidence for what's working. And we are hopeful that as grantees, are able to build that evidence and prove what's working that will inspire other funders beyond us also to invest in some of this great work. Kaitlin LeMoine: You know, I'm struck by how responsive the foundation is, it sounds like to the needs and kind of priorities of the different organizations that you invest in. I mean, both from, like, the tailoring of, like you said, some of, I guess, how people even, like apply for these, these funds, but also, and like, the kind of things they're looking to achieve once they've obtained the funds. But also this, this focus on monitoring impact, right? Because I think, like in this space, that can be really challenging and doesn't always have a short time horizon associated with it, depending on the initiative or the program. So I mean, I'm curious, Ellie, can can you share a couple of examples of grantees that are demonstrating impact, and then maybe we can dive into some of the challenges and learnings you're seeing as well. Ellie Bertani: Two organizations that I wanted to highlight that I think are great examples of really interesting, unique, high ROI projects that we're excited about. So the first is an organization you may know called Upwardly Global. Upwardly Global is an organization here in the United States that helps immigrants translate their skills from prior jobs or careers from their home countries to to re credential them and allow them to employ those skills here in the United States, as you probably recognize, there are a lot of barriers when someone is immigrating, and often, many immigrants end up in rather low wage jobs like house cleaner jobs or Uber drivers or things they can quickly get to sustain their families, but aren't harnessing everything they have brought with them from their prior life and upwardly global really helps people go through the process of re credentialing, demonstrating those skills, pointing them towards the right programs that will allow them to then join the workforce in a much more productive way. So they're already doing great work. Upwardly global came to us saying, we really have this vision of expanding our work to serve more and more refugee serving agencies across the United States. What we want to do is kind of some what I would call unsexy infrastructure work. We want to build a learning management system so that we can codify all the work we do and train other organizations to do it, which would dramatically expand our reach across the United States to serve more and more people. And other funders hadn't been willing to make this investment, but we saw, based on how we model and analyze grant potential return on investment, that this was going to be a really high leverage investment and really drive many more people to have higher income. So we made the bet. They implemented the system. We have seen great results as of this work continuing, we've estimated that this will contribute to increasing annual income per person of the program by about $19,000 so really high returns for the investment we made. The second one I would call out is one of our grantees in Colombia called Kuepa EduTech. So cuepa has recognized that in Colombia there's a growing demand for hospitality and services because of the growing ecotourism and tourist industry, and we invested in a pilot program to help low income students be trained in these programs, to provide personalized coaching and to iterate a program so that other funders would come along and grow it over time, we've seen great success In this program, showing that, in some cases, the graduates are now doubling their earnings from below living wage there to over $6,000 a year per person, which is significantly above living wage in Columbia. And so, you know, we estimate that for only about $1,000 we will drive more than double increases to their lifetime earnings over time. So really, again, a really high return on investment now in terms of learnings, right? So I'll give one example of a grantee that you know, we invest in risky things. So many things don't work out. We see about two thirds of our prod. Projects, if we're doing a really good job or panning out as we had hoped, about 1/3 may not be, and that's to be expected. What we really look for, though, is these grantees who are learning and iterating as they go. So we invest in generation Kenya. Generation is a multi national organization that focuses on increasing skills, country by country across the world, and in Kenya, they launched this, really at the time, very innovative project, to help Kenyans, particularly in urban areas, gain skills, to be to have technical skills, and become freelance, digital freelancers in the open marketplace, the theory being, if they could then be employed by Americans, for example, their earnings would be significantly higher than if they were working for local and local jobs that are relatively poor paying with the continuing push into AI and the rapid changes the technology space, what originally seemed like a really exciting, high potential program over the first year ran into some significant challenges with the second and third cohorts gaining employment. The first cohort did great. The second and third really faced some significant challenges, and so they were forced. The grantee came to us and said, we think we should stop the program. We think we should save the funds and reallocate them to some higher potential initiatives. And we said, Thank you. Thank you for coming to us. Thank you for raising this as an issue. Thank you for recognizing this challenge. We were happy to see them pivot the strategy and repurpose the funds quickly and recognize the challenges they were facing. So, so all this to say, you know, this is a normal course of things. When you're making a high risk investments. What we really look for is the learnings and the ability of flex and pivot. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I would say that, you know, I appreciate like, Thank you for sharing that that set of lessons learned. And I think you know having some of that story is is on your website as well. And I think it's really valuable to put that out to the community, right to say, like, here's what happens. Like, it's not always like a linear path to success. Sometimes it's actually about yes, let's repurpose or let yes, we're learning along the way, and what can we do differently? And I think showing models of how that work happens is really important, because I think, as you're saying, right, more many times, that's what occurs, especially with a lot of these social impact initiatives. It's not a linear path to success, and it's and there are so many external factors impacting these projects along the way, absolutely. I mean, just in the last few months, we can see how external factors can change all sorts of dynamics for nonprofits and philanthropies trying to make bets. So as long as the leadership team is one that is recognizing learning, we're willing to continue investing and betting on those teams. Julian Alssid: So Ellie, even in less tumultuous times, I'd say that the field has been littered with good ideas that have come and gone with grants. And I'm really interested in hearing a bit about how, how do you work with your grantees to, you know, to ensure that they're to try to give the best chance of life beyond this grant like, how do you leverage these investments in that respect? Ellie Bertani: Although we're young, we recognize that we would like to go beyond the check in terms of support to our grantees. And so with two of our three funds, currently, we have started implementing grantee cohorts and grantee support to those cohorts. So I'll give two examples of what that looks like today. We have an AI for Economic Opportunity Fund. We were one of the first foundations to invest in this space. And I say that not to toot our horn, but because we have learned a lot along the way since we started over two years ago, about what helps a grantee be successful when they're building a new technology, particularly a technology that it is itself evolving so quickly through our first cohort and our first fund, we were very fortunate to form early on a partnership with open AI, and that has really matured in the second cohort, to them offering engineering support for all of the grantees going through our second cohort, we host monthly meetings, bring all of the grantees together focused on a specific topic, each time, from topics ranging from ethical use of AI and building ethical frameworks for building and implementing AI in your own organization, all the way to highly technical... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36548165

Kerry McKittrick: Transforming State Workforce Systems 04/29/2025

Kerry McKittrick: Transforming State Workforce Systems Kerry McKittrick, Co-Director of The Harvard Project on Workforce, shares research conducted in partnership with the National Governors Association on how governors are reshaping workforce development to address labor force challenges. She identifies key trends including agency mergers, stakeholder engagement, dual-customer approaches, innovative funding, and investments in wraparound supports for underrepresented populations. McKittrick highlights how states focus on industry partnerships in emerging sectors and emphasizes the importance of data-informed regional strategies. She explains how successful pilot programs using governor's reserve funds can lead to permanent state policies, offering practical guidance for practitioners to adapt research insights to local contexts. Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. You know Julian, when we talk about and use the term workforce development, it can sound like we're talking about one system, but really it's an interconnected web, like set of systems. It's not just one thing. Julian Alssid: A web is a good way to put it. You've got education and training programs, employer needs, government policies, economic data, new technologies and people seeking to advance their careers. So all these different pieces, and they're all influencing each other, you can't really address one without thinking about the others. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, exactly. It requires so much collaboration. Educators need to talk to employers. Policy makers need to listen to communities. And it's not just a top down function either. It's you need to you need input from the people going through the trainings and the workers trying to navigate their careers as well. Julian Alssid: Which is why I'm excited that we're talking with Kerry McKittrick today from the Harvard Project on Workforce. Kerry is helping to make sense of the work happening across these interconnected systems. Kaitlin LeMoine: The Harvard Project on Workforce is an interdisciplinary applied research project between the Harvard Kennedy School, the Harvard Business School and the Harvard Graduate School of Education that examines workforce development and the future of work from these various vantage points. In Kerry's role as co-director, she leads the project's policy, research, and partnership strategy, and spearheads initiatives focused on building better pathways to economic mobility. She has co-authored multiple papers focused on education, training and career navigation, and she speaks regularly about issues at the intersection of education and work. Julian Alssid: And prior to joining The Project on Workforce, Kerry was a senior manager at Jobs for the Future and served as a senior policy advisor on education workforce, civil rights and child welfare policy for Congressman Jim Langevin. She started her career in politics serving as a campaign manager for Massachusetts State Rep Ken Gordon. Thanks so much for joining us today. Kerry. Kerry McKittrick: Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast and excited to chat. Kaitlin LeMoine: We're excited to connect and chat with you today as well, Kerry. Thanks so much for joining us here. So as we jump in today, can you please tell us a bit more about your background and your role at The Project on Workforce? Kerry McKittrick: Absolutely. So I come from a political policy background, and it was actually through that work, through working with a congressman from Rhode Island, Jim Langevin, who really was interested in career and technical education, that my eyes were kind of opened to the workforce development and career and technical education world. And you know, I found it really interesting, because unlike many policy areas, it's pretty bipartisan. We were able to find some great agreements across Democratic sides and Republican sides and between employers and educators. Everyone sort of agreed that this type of approach was extremely necessary to both fill what was called at the time, you know, the skills gap, but also expand equity and so, you know, I did that work in Washington, got a little bit tired, as you may imagine. My, you know, my, my heart goes out to all the folks still doing this work. It's really amazing in Washington. But wanted to kind of dig deeper into the broader ecosystem. And as you were saying, really understand all of the different players and their roles and their unique levers for driving economic mobility. So I was fortunate to work at Jobs for the Future and now at The Project on Workforce. I'm thrilled to sit at the intersection of all of these players and try to make research accessible. So often I feel like research is on one side and practitioners are kind of on the other, and so it's important to ground the practice conversation in the evidence. And really, our mission is to build better pathways to economic mobility for workers and learners who haven't been served well by our systems in the past, and so we advance research on, you know, education and workforce transitions. We focus on the role of community colleges and regional economic development, the, I would say, role of career navigation supportsin economic advancement and workforce policy and education policy about the state and federal levels. Julian Alssid: So Kerry, so you do indeed sit in the in the middle of it all, and which is, which is great, and your research coming out of the center has been out of the project has been quite, quite amazing. As we seek to remain kind of current on the, you know, on the future of work and learning, what are some of the trends you're seeing, and tell us about some of your most research and related findings. Kerry McKittrick: I think that's a great question, because things are shifting pretty rapidly beneath our feet. And, you know, it's, it's a complex, complicated time to be doing this work. I think one of the things we're focused on at the project is really shifting workforce policy at the state level. And you know, we recently released a report focused on the role of governors in shaping workforce development systems, and we focused on governors because they have a unique position, both under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act from the federal level, as well as over the states agencies which we know workforce touches everything from education systems to economic development systems to child care and transportation, all of these issues are really interconnected, and governors have a unique ability to bridge those gaps, and so we wanted to understand, because there is a lack of research on this topic and on what states are doing at the workforce level. Wanted to understand what governors were focused on, what were their priorities, what are some of their strategies and processes that they're deploying as they try to address low labor force participation. And I call that out, because when we were interviewing governor's workforce advisors to do this research, 60% discussed low labor force participation as a key driving factor that was contributing to their workforce development strategy. And so I can go a little bit deeper, but I'll highlight five trends that we saw at the state level. The first is that organizational structures are shifting across states. So we're seeing, in a lot of cases, agencies being merged, whether that's education and workforce agencies or workforce and economic development, we're seeing new stakeholder driven engagement, stakeholder driven approaches to WIOA planning. So we asked about, you know, some of the Workforce Opportunity Act, I think the listeners know we owe is the acronym for that. But in many cases, you know, these are resource intensive processes, but states are really engaging with stakeholders and understanding both, both with employers, with industry associations, to really understand the challenges that they're facing. And then the third piece was this dual customer approach to workforce development, so serving both employers and individuals, both job seekers and job holders. And so I think you know, balancing that, that support between quality jobs and job demand, is something that came up in our interview, 75% of folks mentioned this is the tension they were addressing. And then the last two trends are really trying to address some of the challenges with WIOA funding, federal funding in general, coming up with creative approaches, using governor's reserve funds in innovative ways. And then the last is, you know, really investing in targeted training towards youth, towards underrepresented populations, like justice involved folks, and investing in wraparound supports. So 60% of the folks we talked to mentioned childcare as a really important component of a workforce development strategy, particularly in the wake of COVID, folks, we're seeing, you know, so many caregivers leaving the workforce. And right now, the challenge in many states is how to bring people back, and how to adopt this sort of whole of life, whole of government perspective, to workforce development. Julian Alssid: So that's, that's a lot. It's a very, very you're what you're seeing. So it's very comprehensive, very systemic. It's, it's, it's great to know that states are moving in these directions. Are there priorities that are standing out among the kind of array of shifts you're seeing that cut across states, yeah. Kerry McKittrick: Yeah, that's a great point. I would say the industry partnerships really focusing on key sectors at the time that we were doing these interviews, which was during 2024 from April through December, folks were really focused on clean energy. They were focused on semiconductor manufacturing. A lot of these industries that actually were being targeted by the Biden administration for industrial policy. So we're seeing that states are really investing in industry as partners, in some cases, providing incentives for folks to hire underserved populations. In other cases, building, you know, kind of customized training programs. In other cases, this is a extremely, I think, promising practice, providing business navigators, so a point of contact for a business to help navigate the workforce system, which is not easy to do. So I think there are a lot of exciting, promising practices out there, and focusing on this drill customer approach is certainly something we're seeing become more of a trend. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I'm wondering. Kerry, going back to one of the first things you said around the priorities you had mentioned, or the five trends, rather, you had mentioned agencies that are merging. And I was just curious to hear a little bit more about that. What are some of you know, kind of, what are you seeing merge, and what are the reasons for it, for those mergers to be occurring? Kerry McKittrick: So in some states, there's been efforts to merge education departments and workforce development departments. And in part, this makes it slightly easier to braid funding. So there are a lot of, you know, obstacles to braiding Perkins or education funding and workforce funding. But because workforce funds are so low, and we could have an hours on conversation about that, there's, you know, really a need to kind of be creative and berating funds. So that's kind of one piece. The other reason we saw was trying to build workforce pipelines that start at the youth level. So starting in K-12, with career and technical education, moving through community colleges up to workforce and community colleges starting to serve a real kind of integral role as upskilling institutions for their communities. So an effort to build these pipelines, one in four of the states we talked to mentioned youth apprenticeships as a priority. So merging these agencies helps folks to really improve the coordination across the board. And then I would say the other piece, the other emerging that we were seeing was, and this wasn't across the board, right? This was just, you know, several states was economic development or commerce with workforce, and this allowed for more business services to be integrated with workforce services, and a few of those that I just mentioned, but we're seeing, you know, one of the trends that I've observed is really the use of workforce policy as business engagement policy. Because businesses, you know, it's, it's far more than just, perhaps the tax incentive for moving to a specific area. It's really incentivizing workforce support and workforce investment, because this is what businesses need to and it's also helping states grow. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, well, and it's interesting to think, you know, to kind of hear these are the different ways that really, these different players are almost de siloing their efforts, right? Like, like you're saying about building that pipeline, what does it look like to build a an education and economic development pipeline, kind of like, K on up, right? Like, let's, let's start at the very beginning, and and all work together, kind of throughout and across these systems. So that's that's exciting to to hear you're seeing as, like, kind of an emerging trend in this space. Kerry McKittrick: Exactly. And I think another thing I'd add to that is career exploration becoming a bigger trend, especially at the youth level, and understanding that, you know, many people might not know what a career in semiconductor manufacturing is, I think I still don't. So for young people you know, to really have the opportunity to explore, to figure out, you know, this is something that could leverage my talents. This could be something I want to do. Is an effective and kind of exciting way to go, I would say, you know, one of the other things I would add around this career navigation and career support piece is the need for more career coaches. So in addition to the child's care, the child care trend, half of states mentioned career navigation or career coaching as a priority, both at the youth level but also at the adult level. But there's an acknowledgement that there's a massive shortage of coaches, and then the funding for for these support services is also pretty low. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah. I mean, I think we've seen in our work, like, it's almost like, there are all these new there's there's new industry, sub-industries within industries, there are new jobs that it's like, what are these jobs? Right? Like you hear it, but then it's actually like, what do you. Do day-to-day. It seems, as you're saying, it just feels like there's so much work to be done around like further defining these new and emerging roles that you know maybe haven't been around that long, or have experienced really significant shifts in recent years. Julian Alssid: So it sounds like it's kind of you're seeing different flavors or different accommodations around the country, and the way governors are tackling this and and I'm interested you're one of the things we've seen in the past with with some of the reforms you know, that involve collaboration among education, workforce and economic development actors, is that they kind of come and go with leaders and administrations. So what do you see states doing to kind of bake this work? You talked about some, you know, merging of agencies and that sort of thing. But even on, like, the highest sort of coordination level, like how who's who's leading this work for states. Kerry McKittrick: In part, because, you know, we did see some of the merging of agencies as a key lever that was implemented with new administrations. So it was something that governors could do right away. I think, you know, we did hear in our interviews that different transitions across administrations was difficult, particularly given, you know, usual funding silos. But you know, one thing that I think is interesting, one of the things we drilled down on was the use of Governor's reserve funds. So these are the governor set aside funds under the Workforce, Innovation Opportunity Act, and in some cases, so this, you know, is something from year to year that that could change. You know, states have their plans, but governors ideally have some flexibility and some discretion over where these funds go. In some cases, you know, folks actually said, Oh, well, it's been decided by the administration before us. It's it's hard for us to use this as a priority. In other cases, you know, it was used to backfill administration costs. But what I want to highlight here, which I think is interesting is that there was a case in there are certain cases in which people are using these funds to test ideas that are then that that, once they prove the efficacy, can then be signed into law and funded at the state levels. So I want to, and I think that's a really interesting way of continuing it post, you know, post a certain administration. So an example of this is Washington state. So the governor launched an initiative called economic security for all, which provided, using the governor's reserve funds, which provided wraparound supports and financial assistance for folks just above the WIOA threshold, income threshold. It did that for four years. Studied it found massive wage gains and had huge success. And because of that, the state signed it into law and added state appropriations to fund it. So this was able to kind of continue past the administration, which I think is a really promising use for those funds when they're available. I mean, again, you know, the small funding levels continue to be a challenge, especially for small states, who still have to maintain the data systems right, who still have to administer a lot of these, you know, these practices, but don't have as much funding as a larger state does, just based on the formula. Kaitlin LeMoine: So building on that, that last comment, certainly, you know this, the small dollars, I guess we would say, is maybe one of the challenges here, but based on on, you know, your research and findings, what do you see as some of the more the other challenges to address that states are addressing or working to address around the effective use of WIOA dollars and other workforce funding dollars as well. Kerry McKittrick: Yeah, I think, you know, lack of good data and information is a real challenge. Folks are, you know, investing in data systems, there's a great you know, data, quality data, workforce quality fund through workforce innovation, and many states are investing in state longitudinal data systems. So there's progress there, but this is still a place where we could use a lot of investment and a lot of improvement. We've done some analysis of state WIOA websites, this was a few years ago, and found that many of them, the most of them, didn't have clear outcomes data on earnings or completion rate or employment after a training program. So not only does this, you know, harm an individual who's trying to use WIOA services to upskill, but it also is makes it difficult for states that are trying to direct resources or allocate resources strategically. So I think we need a lot more investment in data systems so we can understand what works and provide information for, you know, job seekers, so they can make the decisions that are right for them. Julian Alssid: So Kerry, you know, I know you're you say you're a regular listener, and we do appreciate that. And as... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36328265

Dana Stephenson & Dave Savory: Scaling Experiential Learning 04/15/2025

Dana Stephenson & Dave Savory: Scaling Experiential Learning Dana Stephenson and Dave Savory, co-founders of Riipen, discuss their journey creating a platform that connects students with project-based experiential learning opportunities. The conversation explores how work-integrated learning can bridge the gap between education and employment through flexible experiences that complement traditional internship models and help students gain valuable experience and transition more successfully into the workforce. Stephenson and Savory share insights on the evolution of experiential learning from limited co-op programs to a more accessible continuum of opportunities that help overcome barriers for both students and employers. The discussion also examines emerging trends, including the growth of dedicated experiential learning roles at institutions and development of regional learning ecosystems. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian Alssid: Kaitlin, it feels like every day we're hearing more about the challenges facing new college graduates entering the workforce. Kaitlin LeMoine: It's true. Julian, some hiring managers say recent grads are unprepared for the world of work, and employers are increasingly seeking candidates with work experience, even for entry level positions. It's a pretty tough landscape to navigate out there Julian Alssid: Yeah, and that's where work based learning becomes so critical. More and more jobs require experience so so we have to build experiential learning into learners academic programs, but developing effective experiential learning programs at scale can be incredibly challenging for both employers and educators Kaitlin LeMoine: Which is why we're so excited to have Dana Stephenson and Dave Savory of Riipen with us today. Ripen is tackling this issue head on by providing a work integrated learning platform and ecosystem. Julian Alssid: Dana is Riipen’s, Co founder and CEO, and he launched Riipen with a vision to end underemployment by ensuring every learner can access authentic, project based experiential learning opportunities. And Dave is Riipens, co founder and VP of experiential learning, with over 15 years of experience and entrepreneurship and business development. He brings us to this important work. Kaitlin LeMoine: Dana and Dave, welcome to Work Forces. We're looking forward to learning more about how Riipen is, making work based learning accessible at scale. Dana Stephenson: Thanks, Kaitlin, thanks, Julian, great to be here. So as we dive in today, can you please tell us more about your respective backgrounds and your current roles at Riipen, and from there, we'd love to hear more about the problems that you're looking to address through Riipen. Dave Savory: Sure. Yeah, thanks great to be here. Thanks for having us on. My name is Dave Savory. I'm one of the co founders of Riipen, and lead our experiential learning team. Really, in my day to day role, I focus on working really deeply with partners across a pretty diverse range of industries, in higher ed workforce, intermediary groups, government as well as funding partners. So really thinking through and excited to invest in really new models that can remove barriers and create more access to experiential learning programs, and so excited to share a little bit of that work today. Dana Stephenson: Yeah, Dana Stevenson, Co founder and CEO of Riipen. We're building the world's fastest growing and largest work-based learning marketplace, connecting to students to companies through short term skills specific projects where students get experienced professional connections and find the jobs they love and employers gain fresh insights from the next generation of leaders and decision-makers and build and diversify their talent pipeline for upcoming roles in their in their organization. And we were an incredibly mission driven company. And I think, you know, the mission for us is really all about entering under employment globally. It's an exciting story of sort of where that came actually. The story really, really kicks off where Dave and I met back in business school, back in back to 2012. Dave Savory: Yeah, we actually, well, we actually met in 2010 very serendipitously. We were in an orientation of our business school program at University of Victoria, we randomly sat next to each other and and instantly had a lot of mutual kind of values and alignments. And the following year, we actually had a course together where a faculty member came in and kind of ripped up the Harvard Business Review case and and brought in a CEO of a local mid sized company in the Victoria area, and basically said, hey, everyone this, instead of doing a case of a textbook, everyone's going to break up into groups and we're going to do a real project for credit on this company's kind of strategic crossroads that they were, that they were at, and Dana and I were in the same group, and we had quite a bit of work experience before entering our undergrad experience, and we just thought this was amazing in terms of, like, how to better engage with the learning and really apply the learning. And we had the CEO came in with a few team members. They presented their organization. We had a few kind of check in meetings with them throughout the semester, and at the end of the semester, the team came back, and they kind of did a Shark Tank kind of experience for every group, presenting their recommendations. And we just came out of that experience with just like so much more enthusiasm around like, Hey, why can't more of our experience, our courses that we're doing, who all that all have relevant kind of real world applied projects that are built into them. Why can't most of why can't more of them be with real employers that are going to help us build our network, develop our skills, grow our portfolio and our resume of experience, and that was really kind of our light bulb moment for why we started to go down the path of building record. Julian Alssid: Yeah, that's so cool. So Dana, how has the experiential learning landscape evolved since you started? Dana Stephenson: Right? A ton. Dave's, you know, the story we just described takes us back to 2010, 2012 we were part of the University of Victoria. So Riipens, a Canadian company born out of the University of Victoria as a student project for students. But one of the main reasons why we focused on on this project-based experience model is that in Canada, maybe people audience may or may not know. But in Canada, Northeastern, the co op model that Northeastern and Drexel and universities in Cincinnati and the US are so well known for it among others. In Canada, Co Op is huge. Almost every student, every institution offers a Co Op program, highly sought after, really well funded, really one of the most amazing experiences that we've had. So when, when we first got into this space in Canada, experiential learning, work, integrated learning, was really all about the co op model, but in the programs that we're offering Co Op, by no surprise, just like we're seeing in the US right now, I think Northeastern is now harder to get into than Dartmouth, given some of the stats that we're seeing, unsurprisingly, in Canada, the programs that we're offering Co Op were highly sought after getting a lot a lot of a lot of enrollment. The challenge is, at the time 2 million students across Canada, only about 200,000 students were getting access to a co op, so a huge supply and demand problem. And we started thinking to ourselves that there's got to be really a better way. There's got to be a more flexible approach to help reach students earlier on and throughout their education pathway. Dave mentioned we had a lot of experience when we got into this, when we were early on going through our education pathway. So we had no problem getting our Co Op, but we were shocked to find out how many students were in their their third year and had no work experience. So I think where we see things evolve is that traditionally, when people think about work based learning in the higher ed context. They've been thinking about the more traditional Co Op model. They've been thinking about the more traditional internship model. But the evolution is now what we're really excited about is that more folks are really starting to see this on a full continuum. Learners have all faced different barriers. They might be in different geographic locations. They might have other jobs that might have to hold on, hold on to to help pay for their higher education degree or program, they might have loved ones that are taken care of, a whole bunch of different barriers. And so the beauty of having an entire continuum is you can meet the students where they are. We can have a whole bunch of different types of approaches, going from lower intensity, shorter duration opportunities that can fit within a course or fit in a co-curricular setting, all the way up to higher intensity, longer duration experiences like a full blown internship, Co Op or apprenticeship and everything in between. And that's part of the, probably one of the most exciting evolutions that we've been seeing over the last little bit. Dave Savory: Yeah, and I just add to that, it's been interesting to kind of see just the evolution and the nature of how a lot of these experiences, like when we first started, a lot of the experiences that we were supporting, of course, we're an online platform, but a lot of the the educators and the employers that we are working with were doing in person kind of collaborations. And then obviously, as the as the pandemic happened, there was a massive push to remote and virtual collaborations between employers and students, which obviously has amazing benefits in terms of breaking down barriers for learners who are not in parts of the country that have access to a lot of employment or industry opportunities. And now we're kind of seeing a bit of a push back towards some sort of hybrid model where we're very focused on, how do we how do we take the best from the remote kind of virtual model, but then how do we actually layer in kind of a local or regional ecosystem element to it, so that learners are actually getting experiences with organizations that are relevantly close to them. And so we're seeing a really nice, just kind of trend of how some of these regional and and statewide ecosystems are starting to blossom. Kaitlin LeMoine: So you've presented kind of all the it sounds like there's a full suite and range of offerings that you try to provide to both, I would imagine, kind of, it's kind of a three sided marketplace, right? So, I guess for employers, institutions and learners, you're looking to provide kind of a range of opportunities, work based, learning opportunities, or positions or projects. How do you go about doing that? Like, can we get a little bit into the nuts and bolts of like, of, you know, we're thinking about thesecurrent trends. How is your How are you building your company in response to those trends? Dana Stephenson: I will say one point of clarification. So we do offer a whole suite, but we're very vertically deep on the project based experience. And what's excited with the project based experience is that it can be 10 hours long completed over two weeks. It can be individual or group, or it can be 250 hours long can be completed over two semesters and everything in between. And that's really what gives it the flexibility, and really ensures that you can have these high quality experiences where students are focused on developing skills rather than some of the experiences that you do sometimes see out there. We all know that some internships are better than others, and you can really ensure that you're focusing on career relevant skills as part of that project and solving a real business challenge in your community or around the world. So we don't do traditional internships. We don't do traditional Co Op programs, just to be clear on that. But what's really exciting is most of our partners, actually, the vast majority of our partners, realize that the fastest way left in a world of really challenging supply and demand in the internship and Co Op space. One of the fastest ways to grow your internship and Co Op supply is to actually do more project based experiences that attracts more employers. They engage as a stepping stone. They convert those into Co Op and internship employers. And of course, it prepares your students to go land those so we're extremely complimentary, but we are very much focused on the on the project based. So how do we do that? We've got an entire you name it. We really are a marketplace on one side of the marketplace. We attract employers. We work with our partners to help them activate their networks of alumni, activate their networks of even Co Op and internship employers who want to, who want a wider variety and wider spectrum of things that they can do to engage students. We have our own channel partners with business associations and chambers and all sorts of organizations where we have a one to many approach to reach employers. And then, of course, we do our own outreach. We provide a platform that just makes it really easy for companies to come on and start to input all their ideas, all their challenges, all the goals that they're trying to achieve. And it starts to pump out a whole bunch of different project ideas that they can put into our ecosystem and make those available to our academic institutions. So typically, we've got anywhere from 3000 to 5000 live projects in the marketplace waiting to be matched to an educator to provide to their students at any given time. We completely oversubscribed that side. So we've actually flipped the supply and demand challenge, and the employers are now, rather than students competing for jobs in this marketplace, companies compete to work with students. The other side of it is we have our partner institutions, and they come on and it's really all the whole system here is very educator driven, so the educators get to be learned very early on. That if we can put the educators in the driver's seat and allow them to create the experience that aligns with their learning objectives, and then we can use the platform to help them communicate in that experience in a way that helps the employers and the educators be speaking the same language. Then we can make these really meaningful matches and get these projects that align with the business and talent needs but also align with the learning sections of the program embedded directly to the curriculum. So we that's sort of like half the battle right there. We just really build this marketplace offer the opportunities for these to connect at the right project, the right educator for the right students at the right time. And that helps with you know, the larger we grow, the more we scale up, the easier that becomes, the more valuable that becomes for everyone who's participating in our in our in our network. And then we have a whole suite of tools. So once you actually launch these project based experiences. We've learned from our partners that, how do I manage my students? How do I help make sure that my students are communicating well to the employers, having meaningful conversations? How do I track them through? How do I survey them before, during and after? How do I create opportunities for reflection on the skills that they're developing as part of these projects? All of that is built into the platform so that our partners can manage it. They can track it, they can measure it, and they can really see how much these interventions, these project based experiences, are improving students, retention, students, improving students, student success, student completion rates, and, of course, ultimately, student employment outcomes. Dave Savory: Just build on that by really focusing on the project based model, we're really tapping into a pool of employers, primarily small and medium sized employers that aren't traditionally engaging in more formal kind of apprenticeships or internship or Co Op model, because they are a big lift and they're quite resource intensive for smaller organizations to to really support well. And so by working with employers who are kind of thinking through more, smaller, flexible, project based experiences, we're able to to engage an audience that isn't participating in some of those traditional models. And that's really helped us to grow that side of the ecosystem very well. Julian Alssid: It's quite an undertaking. I mean, it sounds like there's a lot of moving parts. And I'm interested to hear a little bit about I'm interested to hear more about how you actually build this. Dave, is this like, Do you have a team of folks who are developing these projects? How do you, you know, what's the level of involvement on the part of the employers and the other partners? And then I really want to hear about challenges. What keeps you guys up at night? Dave Savory: Well, I mean, we do have a great team on both sides of the ecosystem, supporting educators and our academic partners, as well as our foyer partners. And on the employer side, we're really focusing on, we almost recruit and engage employers in a just in time, way based on kind of the needs and demands that we're seeing from our educators and our academic partners. We and we've learned over time that when they actually see a tangible opportunity at a institution that they recognize and it's a call to action of a real program that's accepting applications that helps small, medium sized businesses, any any business really be like, yes, I want to do that. Or maybe that's not a good fit, but I want to post my project into the ecosystem. And so the way matchmaking happens is it goes both ways, so employers are able to apply to an educators program, and vice versa. A lot of great a lot of our educators are actually really good at going into the employer side of the ecosystem, searching for projects that are aligned with their courses, and actually reaching out and being proactive to employers. And so we see success kind of both ways. We've also really been investing and leveraging AI in the Riipen system to just remove friction points for just saving time and helping employers, obviously, creating content and thinking of project ideas is, is it can be a challenge. How do I write a project that's a really good fit for for an educator, that would be a good project for their class? And we've always had really great templates built out, but really, in the last year and a half, two years, we've built into the platform the ability for employers to go in and just type out ideas that they're interested in doing and use our project AI tools to create a project scope that's really well defined and is designed in a way that can be embedded into into a course. And then we have kind of a an assessment of when they're looking to apply to courses, if their project is a good fit, green, yellow or red, and if it's if it's a great fit, that really increases the match rates, but it also helps employers think through, okay, well, what do I need to do to add into this project, or change the project scope to make sure it is aligned with what an educator, what an academic partner, is looking for? One of the one of the major... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/36028515

Matt Sigelman: Navigating the Skills Landscape of the Future 03/31/2025

Matt Sigelman: Navigating the Skills Landscape of the Future Matt Sigelman, President of the Burning Glass Institute, discusses the crucial role of real-time labor market data in guiding workforce development and helping stakeholders navigate the evolving skills landscape. Sigelman highlights the rapid evolution of skills, noting the decreasing 'half-life' of skills and the growing importance of lifelong learning. The episode explores how workforce systems can adapt to these changes, including the need for better training infrastructure and a focus on career progression. Sigelman also examines the impact of artificial intelligence (AI) on the future of work and the importance of complementing AI with human skills to ensure a more equitable and prosperous future. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. So Julian, for years, we've been helping clients navigate the messy intersection of work and learning, and using and interpreting labor market data has been essential to help inform and guide the direction and decision making of various stakeholders, ranging from business and industry to higher ed and training providers. Julian Alssid: It's true Kaitlin, but early on, data tools were limited government data lags, which made it hard to keep up with pace of change, and the tools available were also challenging to use or interpret, which which made it difficult to adopt the use of this data across whole teams and organizations. Often, data analysis was housed under, you know, one person, or in a small analytics shop, which further like limited ongoing use by the individuals charged with educating and training and hiring. And to compound this all further, students and workers were even further removed from labor market data and related trends. Kaitlin LeMoine: And that's why the work of our guest today is so critical. Matt Sigelman, president of the Burning Glass Institute, has dedicated his career to unlocking new avenues for mobility, opportunity and equity through skills. He and his team created the field of real time labor market data, a breakthrough innovation which has transformed how we understand and navigate the world of work. Julian Alssid: Matt's work has cracked the code of an increasingly dynamic labor market tracking demand for 10s of 1000s of skills across 30 countries before before launching the Burning Glass Institute, he was CEO and then Chairman of Lightcast for over 20 years, and worked at McKinsey & Company and Capital One. Matt also currently serves as a senior advisor at the Harvard Project on the workforce, and is founder of the elementary school mainline classical Academy. Is it? He writes widely on the job market, and it's consulted frequently by public officials and the global media. Kaitlin LeMoine: Matt, welcome to Work Forces. We're so excited to have you with us today. Matt Sigelman: It's great to be together. Thanks so much for having me. Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. Well, so as we jump into the conversation today, can you please tell us a bit about your background and your current role at the Burning Glass Institute. Matt Sigelman: As you pointed out, I spent 20 years before starting the Burning Glass Institute, building what's now come to be called Lightcast. What a lot of people don't realize is that, like cast started not as a data company, but as a job matching company. We built a engine for first being able to read people's resumes, and then to be able to what they call resume parsing, and then to be able to match them to jobs. And it was a successful little business and we wound up doing a lot of work in state and local workforce systems, providing them the the matching engines that were used to be able to support clients and connecting them with work. And this was around kind of the start of the Great Recession, when suddenly a lot of workforce agencies found themselves inundated with people, many of whom weren't traditional kinds of workforce system customers. People who are professionals or from a wide array of occupations and, you know, we had this great engine and, and what we realized, though, is that it could only work well if it could connect people with jobs. There had to be jobs for them to be capable, to be connected to and what, of course, your listeners who work in workforce systems know is that employers haven't always been so forthcoming in connecting and putting their jobs in front of workforce systems. And so what we essentially had was this Ferrari engine flight plucked down inside of a Yugo. Right, you know, it searched across the 100 jobs that happened to be listed on, on what effectively was an online bulletin board in, you know, in a workforce center. And so what occurred to us is that we were solving the wrong problem. We were solving a one on one matching problem. That is to say, how do I match Matt with a specific job? But so much of the problem that we have in workforce development, economic development, in policy, but also in the world, of education and employers? Well, is a planning problem. It's not a one on one matching. It's a problem. It's it's a how do it's a it's a population genetics problem, right? Like, how do you connect this group of people with these kinds of jobs? Because that's when you can start to plan. And so we started scratching our heads and said, Why is that not happening? And what we realized is the same reason why our matching engine was constrained. The fact that there weren't a lot of jobs in one place was the same reason that a lot of that planning wasn't happening. And so we said, Well, gee, this is this is strange right now. Pretty much most job postings. And I think this was largely true, then it's certainly a lot more true 17 years later today, that pretty much most job postings across whether you're talking about very entry level jobs, whether you're talking about highly skilled professional jobs, are posted online. And so instead of having to rely on employers to come to you, you could actually go and just scrape their jobs. And so we we built a whole system of spiders to crawl the web and bring back what ultimately became millions of job postings every day. But our ambition, again, was, was not so much to create a bigger database for a matching service. Our ambition really quickly became to be able to say, what do those jobs say? How can they help us plan more effectively, so that we're not leaving people, leaving training, leaving policy at the mercy of the spot market, where it's like, okay, what jobs happen to be available today? But instead to be able to think ahead and say, Hey, what's the training that we're gonna need to be what are the programs that we're gonna need to invest in? So, what we did is we started to develop all these coding engines to be able to make sense and interpret, make sense of and interpret all the jobs that we're bringing back. And that was sort of the birth of what people have come to refer to as the real time labor market industry. And it's, it's evolved greatly since then, and I'm proud of the work that Lightcast and others are doing, to continue to advance those data. I left that three years ago, and I left it because as powerful as the data are, I came to realize that a lot of what's missing is the ability, is, the trend is, is the translation and transformation layers? How do we use these data to affect fundamental transformations? And a lot of that really isn't necessarily about the data themselves. It's not about software, but it's about working together with stakeholders in the field and solving things very experimentally, because a lot of these big problems, the big, thorny problems that we're all trying to solve, well, inherently, they haven't been solved yet. So the Institute is a fully independent nonprofit data laboratory to advance research and practice at the intersection of the of the future of work and the future of learning, where our goal is to undertake the kinds of experiments that advance economic mobility, that build community prosperity and that ensure that we're, we're seeing better outcomes for workers and learners. Julian Alssid: It's great Matt to hear you tell the story, and you know kind of I've, I've known you and really followed you through this, most all of this process, and I'm glad that you're now at the intersection of work and learning and trying to help solve these, these thorny problems. What? What are some of the trends that you're seeing now? And you know, at that intersection and in particular areas of research that you're really excited about and are kind of looking to further unpack. Matt Sigelman: So when I think about the intersection of work and learning, what's shaping the imperative there and shaping the greatest sets of transformations is the level of dynamism and skills. We're used to thinking about a labor market that's denominated by jobs and a lot of the prognostication that we see is about jobs going away, new jobs being born. What we see instead is that the greatest changes are happening at the layer of skills. What are the skills that it takes to land a job? What are the skills that get accrued within a job, and what's the dynamism that's reshaping those skills that's really important, because the skills affect not only what it takes to get a job, but they affect how you get your next job. You think about a job transition, you're essentially taking the skills that you just learned, and you're moving from job to job. And what we're seeing is a tremendous rate of skill change. People often talk about a half life of skills. Listeners won't be surprised to hear that that half life is quickening and quickening. Well, quickly, we did some work a few years ago with our colleagues at BCG, where we found that the average job has seen 37% of its skills replaced in just the prior five years, and that was before generative AI. So here's the thing about it, though, when we think about that pace of skill change, we really sort of assume it's about technology change, and there's certainly no small amount of that, but the greater set of changes are actually about skills blending from across domains. Think about a field like marketing. You know, we all know people in marketing, they tend to be very nice people because they went into marketing because they know how to talk to people well. So you have right brain people, and all of a sudden marketing is becoming a data driven sport. So you have right brain people who need to be able to use left brain skills, not hard to find marketing people, but try finding a marketing person with SQL skills, and the job becomes much harder to fill. It comes, you know, starts to command big salary premiums. So we're seeing that kind of phenomenon around the market. Here's why I talk about that as as the key imperative shaping the intersection of work and learning, because what it says is that a educational model of once and done learning. You go to high school, maybe you go to college, and then you sort of never look back and go a step into your career. A model like that that was already challenged is increasingly broken or perhaps risible at minimum. I think you could say it's inadequate. Maybe that was a more polite way of saying it so. What it says is that there's 165 million US workers in the workforce, and the vast majority of them are in a position where they need to be able to acquire new skills, and they need to be able to acquire new skills on the fly. And we need an infrastructure for that. The logical infrastructure that we have things like our workforce system is tremendously under invested. Think about the scope of Workforce Investment monies that actually get allocated towards skill training, talking about a few 100 million dollars out of a couple billion of total WIOA funds a year. You think about our community colleges, which are slightly better funded, but the vast majority of, or at least significant majority of community college enrollments right now are into we're called degree transfer programs and not to workforce training. And so we really are leaving people to navigate their transitions without much guidance and without the resources to acquire the learning that enables them to move up, that gives them a greater chance of making sure that each of those transition is an opportunity for greater economic mobility. The average US worker right now will see 12 career transitions over the course of her career, and each of those transitions is an opportunity to either move up or to stay put or perhaps even fall back. And right now, we are not helping people systematically to discover what are the skills that will help them move up? What are the skills that are in demand that will allow them to command a premium? What are the skills that will prepare them for the future? And even if we help them discover those skills, we don't provide them with an infrastructure to acquire them. So you know that says to me that there's a whole big space around around lifelong learning. It has implications for higher ed, because right now, higher ed has largely surrendered that space to online players, and I think there's a big opportunity for colleges and universities in a time that they're seeing enrollments thin. It also has implications for how we think about non degree credentials and what it takes to make them successful. Kaitlin LeMoine: I think that what you've said about kind of this moment of both the reality that the skills are changing very, very quickly, right? And what's needed as far as the half life of, kind of like, what's most up to date, as far as job relevant skills is shifting more and more quickly, kind of at the same moment as perhaps we're all needing to rethink, what does it look like to keep up to speed. I guess I'm wondering, like, who's whose job is this to figure this out, right? Because it feels like it's both on the it's, it maybe lives with the individual. It might live with employers. It certainly could live with higher ed and training institutions, but only if learners are going to them. So kind of, how do we think about, you know, how we all work to solve this challenge? It's a really, really big one that you're raising here. Matt Sigelman: So I'm so glad you raised this, this question. There's right now no shortage of dysfunction in the market. For the most part, what we have is a system in which the responsibility for navigation rests with individuals themselves, with individual workers and learners. And that's a problem because individual workers lack information, they lack counseling, and they lack liquidity, both financial liquidity and time liquidity. They lack the financial liquidity to be able to invest in training and the time liquidity to be able to have the time to do it when... Kaitlin LeMoine: Or even be aware that they need to do it right. Matt Sigelman: Exactly. And so if you sort of think about where there would be logic in this. There'd be a lot of logic in employers investing. There'd be a lot of logic in the public investing in this. But both are encumbered right now by issues of cost, time and risk. We've got employers who, whether logically or not, wind up getting obsessed with what economists call free rider problems, right? You know, I've got a workforce that's likely to turn over very quickly, and it's true that, you know, in a lot of roles, retention is historically low and and so you know, why should I, as an employer, invest in training somebody who's likely to be leaving now, there's, there's all sorts of good logic for why they should, but, but regardless, you can understand the perception of how it's hard to for an employer to get a return on investment when the time duration of their return is is likely to be so low. But it doesn't change the fact that employers, the ones who are in the best position to signal to their employer, to their employees, right? You know, you would want an employer to say, Hey, Matt, I'm struggling to fill these jobs up here, and I think you could fill them, I want to pay you more. Here's the learning that I want you to take on. Here's the training I'm going to invest in you to get. The public has significant stake in this as well as we think about, you know, kind of our modern Sputnik moments in our global contest for economic competitiveness, as we we try to navigate an increasingly fraught geopolitical environment, the ability to be able to have a highly skilled workforce working in the kind of sectors that we think are going to be most important means that we need to have the opportunities to invest. But here too, I think, you know, we're, we're struggling with issues of, of cost on the one side, of planning on the other, which is, which is a time question, how do we predict where those changes can be and what the sequence of those changes going to be? And so, as a result, what we have, and by the way, educators, likewise, are either asleep at the switch in the sense that they're not offering the kinds of programs that are oriented towards selling degrees. And they are also where they are trying to promote things. Are trying to promote their programs. They're self interested. Not surprisingly, I think here's where we can change this dysfunction. And been lucky to be collaborating with a group of of 30 people in in a project at Stanford right now being led by by Mitchell Stevens, where we're really trying to say, what would what the new economics of learning be, if you were trying to think about moving from an educated society where education happens at the start of a career to a learning society? Where learning happens throughout a career. I think you can imagine sets of structures that allow us to both reduce risk through more effective information sharing, through better signaling, but also to share risk. You can imagine financial structures, for example, where if employer invests in an employee and training employee and the employee leaves that the employer gets a tax credit, regardless of whether the employee is still at the firm, proportionate to the amount somebody's income rises, which, by the way, is something you could fund out of the greater tax revenues that you get when people are earning more. So there's structures that we could put in place that would allow us to reduce risk, having better Labor Market Information Systems, having better mechanisms for employers to share data on the training that they're investing into their workers. Having better assessments of credentials, are all mechanisms that we can put in place, and some of which, you know, we're trying to advance at the institute. Julian Alssid: I almost feel like we haven't even gotten to AI yet. So speaking of which, you know, as AI is sort of rapidly, you know, permeating all. How do you see, how do you see it impacting today and the future of work and learning, you know, short and long term, and, and, and, you know, and kind of the construct you're laying out for us. Matt Sigelman: So there's a couple of effects that we've been we've been studying one that I've been working on, together with, with Mike Fenlon, who was formerly the the Chief Human Resources Officer at PwC, and with Joe Fuller, professor at Harvard Business School, and a colleague on the Harvard Project on the Workforce. And what we've been looking at is how AI is going to reshape learning curves. It turns out, what we found from... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/35943845

Jean Eddy: Impacts of Career Exploration on K-12 Learners 03/18/2025

Jean Eddy: Impacts of Career Exploration on K-12 Learners Jean Eddy, President & CEO of American Student Assistance (ASA), discusses how middle and high school students can develop career awareness and gain meaningful workplace experiences before college. Drawing on research showing middle school as the optimal window for career exploration, Eddy details ASA's digital platform approach, which reaches 15 million students through engaging, mobile-based tools that help them discover interests and connect to potential career paths. She emphasizes the critical "testing and trying" phase where students need hands-on experiences, highlighting ASA's grant-making initiatives that fund intermediary organizations bridging gaps between schools and employers. The conversation explores scaling these efforts through policy engagement and community buy-in, with Eddy advocating for making career exploration an integral part of education rather than a disconnected add-on for teachers while offering practical collaboration strategies for all stakeholders to help students find paths that "make their hearts sing." Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. We've spent much of our time on this podcast exploring learning and career pathways, especially for college students and adults, and while those conversations are important, we also know that it helps learners when they begin a process of career exploration much earlier on in their academic journeys. By the time someone gets to college, it can often be too late for foundational career exploration. We need to help K-12 learners develop an awareness and curiosity of various career options, get them age appropriate experience and help them link their academic interests to the world of work. Julian Alssid: That's right, Kaitlin, and it's something we both know firsthand. We both started our careers in innovative high schools, where we each designed project based and experiential learning opportunities intentionally integrated with internships and real world experiences. We so, you know, we understand the complexities of this work, particularly figuring out the right level of exposure to workplace skills and experiences for young people, you know, how do we best help them explore, gain experience, build social capital and discover their likes and dislikes? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, it is about developing the skills and awareness learners need to navigate the world of work and thinking about practical implementation. It's about working with employers who can meaningfully support this process, and about providing educators with the time and creative space to make these integrated learning experiences happen. Julian Alssid: This is a complex topic to unpack, and that's why we're so pleased to have Jean Eddie with us today as President & CEO of American student assistance, or ASA, she's leading the charge in changing how kids learn about careers and prepare for their futures. Jean is an accomplished leader with over 30 years of experience in higher ed, and has held leadership positions at Rhode Island School of Design, Brandeis University, and Northeastern University. She's a nationally recognized speaker and subject matter expert, cited frequently in major publications and a contributor to forbes.com Jean is deeply committed to student success and is the author of crisis proofing today's learners, and co host of The One Question Podcast with Michael Horn, who was a recent guest on Work Forces. Jean, we're looking forward to discussing ASA's innovative approaches to career readiness for middle and high school students, and how you're reaching them in new and novel ways. Welcome to Work Forces. Jean Eddy: So happy to be here, looking forward to the conversation. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, so are we Jean. It's such a pleasure to be with you today. So as we dive into today's conversation, can you please tell us more about your background and what led you to ASA? Jean Eddy: What is interesting is I met a colleague this morning for breakfast, quite early, and I worked with that person at one of the colleges that you mentioned. We were talking about the fact that we worked with a lot of young people who are on a college campus, and they really didn't know why they were there. And my colleague was basically saying that he oftentimes felt as though he was taking care of young people who were really not they couldn't find their own way. And I would have to say it reminded me of my own journey. I was in high school, and no one approached me about what was next. Never talked about it, never got prepared for it, etc. And if it weren't for the fact that I ended up, after leaving high school, going to a community college, I was lucky, you know, I met people who were interested in me and wanted to kind of show me some way or some path. Who knows where I'd be right now. But I guess, you know, I ended up in higher education because I was so taken with my own experience at a community college. And I worked in higher ed, as you said, for a number of years, but I worked with a lot of young people who really didn't know why they were in college, and I would say that some of them really should have taken another path, and instead, went on to college, spent an awful lot of money that they didn't need to spend, and then ended up with quite a bit of debt that they had to repay somehow, some way. So fast forward now to ASA. I became involved with ASA because ASA is a federal guarantor, and as a person who worked in higher ed I was on the board of ASA for a number of years. And why, why I was interested in ASA is because of the fact. They were really committed to helping young people. It was a very personal relationship, which with a lot of guarantors. It was not but at ASA, it was. And I stayed committed because I was so interested in how they interacted with students. When I was asked to become the CEO here, which was eight years ago now, we were talking about how we could think about working with young people before a problem arose. What we were doing was basically trying to put a band aid on something at the end of the day, rather than getting in front of the problem to see what we could do about that. So we did an awful lot of research and found out that the best time to really talk about careers was in middle school, and that seems kind of young, you know, sixth grade, seventh grade, but what we found was is that kids who are in that age bracket are really open to exploration. They aren't hardwired that they want to do this or they want to do that, and furthermore, their friends haven't made such a huge impact on them that they don't they were willing to go and find their own way. So we then did research about, how do we interact with these young people? What's the best way to do that? And we tried a number of things, but at the end of the day, what we found was we needed to kids meet kids where they are, and that's on a mobile device that's on their cell phone. So like it or not, 97% of the kids who are between 13 and 18 year old, 18 years old, have a cell phone. And so we created mobile, friendly programs that would allow young people to, first off, go out and have fun. Because to me, learning is all about fun. Let's start with that. It doesn't need to be something that's imposed and sometimes treacherous. It's rather what can be fun. So the first thing we developed was something that allowed a young person to have fun, but to basically do puzzles and games, which actually came up with kind of an indicator of things that somebody was good at, but moreover what they liked to do. And then we showed them all kinds of ways to be able to get to that in a successful career. And it's not to say at someone who's in the sixth or seventh grade is saying I'm going to be an X, but rather, I'm interested in these things. And let's see all the possibilities for if you're interested in this, what is possible. And then we went on to build more programs that allowed kids to test and try, which is really key here, testing and trying, having them figure out, maybe I like this, but is there some aspect of it that I really can't do or I don't want to do? And so when we develop these programs, testing and trying, really came in in high school, and the reason for that is by the time students leave high school. We want them to have a plan. And so it's not that again, that they have a road that's absolutely mapped out, but rather, this is the this is the path I can take to see what might come of this, to see what might come with what I love to do with what I'm good at. And can I be able to relate this to that job, that career, that pathway? Julian Alssid: Great to hear the bit about your journey and and the genesis of ASA. So. So now, what are the Could you give us an overview where you are now at ASA with the types of initiatives that you're focused on, and what are the key problems that you know you're looking to, the key challenges or problems you're looking to solve. Jean Eddy: So, you know, the initiatives that we are working on currently, you know, I mentioned the digital we have four digital programs which really bring students from the discovery phase right on through the testing and trying, you know, getting a mentor, getting an apprenticeship, understanding how to be able to get ready for to dress for success, all those kinds of things. There are many, many things kids can do there. We have about 15 million kids on our platforms at any given time. They're between 13 and 18 years old. But in addition to that, we also work with schools, school districts and states who are interested in infusing this kind of a career exploration into their into their curriculum. The biggest one I always talk about is Delaware. Delaware is the nice sized state you can get your arms around it. So we worked with a couple of other funders to basically put career exploration into middle schools in Delaware, so every kid in Delaware has an opportunity to do this kind of career exploration. But I think the biggest challenge we have is the next step is the testing and trying. Because I would have to say, I. So we need employers to be able to help us do that. But any employer will tell you, and I've talked with many, they don't have the infrastructure to be able to provide that, and sometimes they are. They are quite hesitant to get into this, because, again, they don't have the staff, they don't have the know how, and they cannot figure out how to connect with the school district with a system. So a lot of our initiatives are now working with intermediaries places who basically go in and they take care of the things that need to happen at the high school and things that need to happen with the employer, and we do a lot of funding in those respects. My favorite is the caps network. They are national, and they basically give they work with employers and they work with schools to be able to have kids have first hand experiences in how a career could actually map out in a given field. They are beyond impressive. I could talk about them all day, but there are many of them. There are also states who get involved in this, and I will pick on Rhode Island native Rhode Islander, we've worked with skills for Rhode Island for a number of years. They are great intermediaries in basically bringing employers and schools together to provide apprenticeships and internships for young people to test and try. So I think that that is, that is, I'm going to say next big Frontier, we need more opportunities to connect employers and schools in a way that makes sense, and it actually it works for everybody. Kaitlin LeMoine: That last point, you just ended on Jean right? I feel like that's where the rubber meets the road. And all of this work is like, how to make these, these relationships happen? What are you I know, you know you mentioned the intermediary work. What are some of the best practices, or like strategies that you know that are working well to bridge those gaps? Because I think that for so many you know whether, whether it's actually higher ed institutions, K 12 institutions, employers. It's about like, how do we bridge those worlds and in a scalable way? Jean Eddy: So, I think that there are a few things, getting the word out is incredibly important, thought leadership and getting people to understand or or be able to see the kinds of opportunities that are available. But moreover, the funding that is available. There are a lot of programs out there right now, and we participate in some of these funds, which basically back financially, back opportunities for employers and schools to be able to come together and do this kind of work. And one thing I didn't mention before is the amount of grant making we do, and the grant making we do has everything to do with those kinds of opportunities. Historically, we've given up between $10 and $20 million a year, and it is to fund those kind of opportunities where they have not existed before, or to grow networks that you know have started off but have not how to reach across the country, because what we're trying to do is impact kids everywhere. You know, not only in the places that I think, with the northeast, we have so many colleges and universities, we are so focused on kind of these connections, but there are parts of the country where that's not the case, and particularly in the middle of the country. You know, it's really up to us to do a better job in connecting those intermediaries who work in those places to provide opportunities for young people who otherwise are thinking, Okay, what do I do next? You know, what are my opportunities? And they're not as I would not say that there's not a rich as rich of an offering as there could be, because kids just don't know. Julian Alssid: So I get the scaling with, you know, your the digital stuff, and how that you know you've been able to reach so many young people directly, I guess my big question is, with the work, with the intermediaries, or the sort of the partnerships, how does that scale? And how do you ensure that it can live beyond the life of your grants? Like, how does this get baked in to what communities do, what educators do, what employers do, and then, how do you scale that? Jean Eddy: You know, we worked with the state of Massachusetts, and we funded a program that basically put pathways into high schools. It was one of Governor Baker's big initiatives and part of his legacy, I would have to say, the idea in doing some of these things. And we did it in Delaware as well. We did it in Rhode Island. As you start to fund these programs, you do it with the hope that you're working with policy makers who are going to encourage the state legislature to put it in the budget and have it move forward. And that has happened in every single one of these cases, I would have to say you have to have buy in, not only from the intermediary and the school and the employer, but you also need buy in with policy makers, because if they don't believe this. Yes, and they don't see, I'm going to say a road map for a state prospering. It's not going to go anyplace. But again, in the state of Massachusetts, we have an enormous shortage in the trades, construction, tech, skill trades, and we worked with the workforce council here to try and develop programs that would allow us to be able to, I'm going to say, start the pipeline for the jobs that we cannot fill and and that, I think, is really it's a problem that we have across the country. We have so many unfilled jobs right now, and I do believe that half the reason why we have that is because young people are not aware of those jobs, and we're not doing the best, the best work we could possibly do, in making sure they know it, but moreover, that they could try those things and find that they could fall in love with something that they didn't even know was existing. Julian Alssid: Interestingly, we have been working in Massachusetts on the very topic, actually, with the community college and focused on manufacturing. And it's incredible the opportunities that are going wanting because kids and their families know nothing about these roles and the paths associated. Jean Eddy: You know, just this morning, I was listening, I think it was on NPR, they were talking about the fact that there are wait lists for kids in technical high schools, and that they are trying to now impose a lottery system to let young people in, just that is such a telling update on on what is happening in this state. But moreover, in this country, we should be thinking about, how do we integrate the aspects of those vocational high schools into all of our high schools to give kids an opportunity. And I'm not saying that there aren't high schools who do that, because there are, but it usually requires either a principal or a super superintendent who has that drive and that feeling in their gut that this is what has to happen, and then they make it happen. We need more of that. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, and that combination of both of the leadership, and then, as you mentioned earlier, Gene, the financial backing as well, right to, like, especially for some of the more technical programs that require a lot of equipment and, like, lab space, right? I mean, like, the infrastructure required in some cases is is more significant than others. But like, that's another huge factor in this whole effort. One thing that I find really fascinating about the different digital solutions that ASA has built is it seems like it's a pretty low lift for schools to implement and for learners to engage with I'm curious, how do what's the split? I guess, that you see across like learners who engage with these tools on their own as individual users, versus who are introduced through a classroom like experience like, how do learners come to these materials? Maybe individually? How do they find that? Jean Eddy: So I would say, by and large, young people come to us directly. We have, obviously, connections with teachers, with superintendents, etc. And many will use our products as a way to have a hybrid experience. As far as career exploration is concerned, they are using it for that purpose. So they're basically saying, Go out to asa.org, look at this, look at that, etc. But by and large, most of it is coming from kids who come directly to us. And I think I when we first started talking, I talked about the fact that I wanted kids to have fun. So what we basically do, I'm going to say, we invade the time that young people are using their phones, which is on average, five hours a day, which is frightening to me, frankly. But we approach them and it's something that they can take it or leave it. So we go through Tiktok, Snapchat, Instagram, etc. We throw out these things. Invite kids to come in. They either do it or they don't. Most of the time, we find they do it. We have a high level of engagement, but it's got everything to do with that. They're seeing it as this is curious, this is fun, and then suddenly we're opening up another world to them, and then kids stay and so we have four platforms, and it's amazing to me that they keep going. And of course, again, it's all about fun. So I think that that is really the key to this, and what is really, really important, particularly with with young people in this, in this generation of young people, they want agency. They want... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/35694180

Scott Carlson & Ned Laff on Hacking College 03/04/2025

Scott Carlson & Ned Laff on Hacking College Description Scott Carlson and Ned Laff, authors of "Hacking College," discuss how to craft a higher education experience that intentionally links student learning to future work and career success. They emphasize the necessity of a proactive and personalized approach to higher education, tapping into students' passions and hidden intellectualism. Carlson and Laff champion a field of study approach, empowering students to actively design their undergraduate degrees, unearth hidden job markets, and leverage faculty expertise. They underscore the significance of cultural and social capital, urging institutions to adapt and support this student-centric model. The conversation illuminates the ways that higher education administrators and faculty, and students themselves, can personalize the learning experience to ensure higher ed graduates are well-equipped to navigate diverse career opportunities. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. So Julian, I've noticed a real shift in our conversations lately, both with clients and on the podcast, we seem to be delving deeper into the complexities of the school-to-work transition, especially for young adults and for working adults. Julian Alssid: It's true. Kaitlin, and it really highlights the increasing complexity of that transition. The job market is constantly evolving, and it can be tough for students to figure out where they fit in, especially with so many opportunities hidden from public view. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a tall order for educators and institutions too. For example, faculty are being asked to wear many hats and skills like career advising can sometimes feel separate from their day to day roles and require new sets of tools and related training. Julian Alssid: Right? It's not just about helping students find a job, but about guiding them through a process of self discovery, exploration and network building and helping them understand their own interests and strengths and how those connect to real world opportunities. Kaitlin LeMoine: And that's where I think our guests today, Scott Carlson and Ned Laff, have some really valuable insights. They've literally written the book on this. It's called "Hacking College", and we're talking to them on the book's release date. Julian Alssid: Yes, and congratulations, guys. The book offers a framework for faculty and staff to help students take a more proactive and personalized approach to their college experience with a real focus on future careers and life goals. Kaitlin LeMoine: Though we'll ask Scott and Ned, to give their own background, Scott's a Senior Writer at The Chronicle of Higher Education, where he's been writing about the trends shaping higher education for over 25 years. As his LinkedIn profile states, he writes about where education is headed, how it serves or doesn't serve students and the public, and how the sector can stay relevant and resilient. Julian Alssid: And Ned has over 35 years of experience in higher ed, helping students design successful undergraduate experiences. He's held leadership roles at numerous colleges and universities focused on academic advising, curriculum development and student engagement. Kaitlin LeMoine: Scott and Ned, welcome to Work Forces. Congratulations on the publication of this book, and we're excited to dive in with you today to learn more about Hacking College. Ned Laff: Thank you so much. Scott Carlson: Thanks for having us on. Julian Alssid: So to get the conversation started, love to hear a bit more about your respective backgrounds and how you came together to write this book. Scott Carlson: Well, as Kaitlin had said, I was at The Chronicle for about 25 years. I've you know, in the years leading up to the pandemic, I was writing a lot about inequality and the path from college to work. I wrote a couple of Chronicle reports about the future of work and how students wind up getting jobs. And in writing some of this, these reports, and writing some of these stories, the follow up stories in The Chronicle, I had been getting a lot of notes from one Ned Laff who had been contacting me and had been working in this area for some time. And this is, in fact, how we got to know each other and got to meet each other, because Ned was just writing me over and over again about, oh, there's a better way. There's a better way to do this. I'll let him take the story from there. Ned Laff: Yeah, I have the work that I had been doing in higher ed. It's hard to call it something like advising. It's, it's in this middle, middle ground. I got into this when I was a grad student at the University of Illinois in Urbana, where I was working in a program called Individual Plans of Study, where students could design their own academic major, provided it couldn't be done in any of the colleges at the University of Illinois Urbana. And what we began to find out working is that students would be coming in and we would help them figure out how they could do essentially, the heart of an individual plan of study, but underneath the rubric of a major. And that started to raise questions in my mind about what is the nature of a college curriculum from the eyes of a student. What is the relationship of a college curriculum to the world of work? If there is this giant thing called the hidden job market, which is not advertised in career services, you don't see it on, you don't see it on. Indeed. You don't see it anywhere. And what does this mean in terms of student engagement, and how students can tap what they're genuinely interested in, what we call hidden intellectualism, and how they actually better engage learning and and the university they're at. And I would send Scott these. I'm like, probably about 100 emails a week, just nagging them. I got something here. I got something here. Just give me five minutes, though. Kaitlin LeMoine: You share about this in this, in the book, a little bit. We'd love to hear about how the book title came to be. And can you share a bit about the major challenges you hope to tackle when writing this book? Scott Carlson: Well, I think when I was writing some of that stuff for the Chronicle about the path from college to work, I was sort of following along the kind of narrative that everyone else sort of follows. And it's, you know, it's sort of about skills. What do you do with liberal arts education? How do you get students to land internships and all of that. And you know, really, one of the points that we that we make in hacking college is that a lot of that just sort of comes about by luck. For a lot of students, they just sort of happen to run into the right person who shows them how to play the game, or they come from a lot of social and cultural capital that sort of paves the way to where they want to go. And part of what we're trying to do with hacking college is to describe, kind of, the principles of how people wind up creating valuable undergraduate degrees. We're kind of looking at the whole issue of what is the empty college degree. You know, the empty college degree being sort of this degree that is a quote, unquote useful major, and then a bunch of other stuff in the degree that doesn't really knit together. And a lot of students graduate with that kind of degree. You know, we think this is like a huge part of what drives the national conversation about underemployment and of the value of college right now, and that emptiness being sort of the main problem there. And so with Hacking College, we're trying to tackle this, this question like, how do you actually get to something that's valuable? The term hacking comes from the notion that colleges sort of set up a bunch of rules around, you know, how do you get through? How do you, what do you major in? How do you, how do you fill up the rest of the undergraduate degree? And we're using the metaphor of hacking we're talking about like, how do you, how do you use these different structures that you find in college and then knit them together in a conscious way? How do you, how do you create opportunities and create a program that plays off the strengths that you already bring to college? This is a big part of the hacking metaphor there, coming out of the work of Bruce Schneier, who talks about how hacking is across society. People hack the tax code. People hack regulations, government regulations. People hack their lives in all sorts of ways. And of course, the wealthy hack college in hiring expensive college consultants, in, you know, in lining up opportunities for their children in all sorts of ways. How can we do this for students who don't bring these kinds of resources to the undergraduate experience? Julian Alssid: So Ned, you so in the book, I think you used the term earlier, you described approaching this undergraduate experience as a field of study. Ned Laff: Yes. Julian Alssid: What does that mean? What exactly do you mean? And how does approaching college with that lens impact their learner experience? Ned Laff: The interesting thing about using field of study is, I asked students once, can you tell me the difference between your college faculty and your high school faculty, and they couldn't and it was a wonderful experience, because what it meant was basically 90% of what faculty have to offer, what a university has to offer, is invisible. So when you look at faculty, faculty are field of study specialists. They aren't just, I'm a professor of English or I'm a professor of biology, they are I'm a professor of environmental biology, and I'm looking at the migration patterns of whales. And that is looking at it is defining a problem which we call in the book wicked problems, which demand a multi disciplinary approach. And how you approach those wicked problems depends on how you define it. So it's not unusual to hear students come out and say, I just graduated with my degree. I'm at Northwestern University. I actually heard this the other day at the gym. I'm at Northwestern University. I'm graduating, and I have no idea what I'm doing with my degree. I don't know how it adds up, because no one had ever asked them a question like this. I'm going to go into accounting. I have no idea what. Talking about, can you explain that to me? And as soon as you ask for that explanation, whole bunches of things open up. And among those things that open up are all this possibility in what Scott and I call the hidden job market. So the other part of field of study is that it brings an outward looking perspective into how students think inwardly about the college. When they begin to do this, what they realize is there's three basic components to an undergraduate education. When you look at most colleges, right, Gen Ed, the major, and what are you going to do with the rest of the hours, which is almost a third or more of your hours? Sometimes it could add up to 50 hours, because some courses in the gen ed count for the major. Well, when you look at a degree audit, it's except for the basic required courses. It's blank spaces to be filled in. How you fill that in is either going to lead to a profound field, the study for you, where you're using the that thing that you're interested in, your hidden, what we call hidden intellectualism, to guide the way you start looking at the learning opportunities on campus and filling these pieces in so they integrate and they fit together. So Gen Ed links with elective courses, which link with how you select what you want to take from this thing called the major department, and how you begin to identify faculty by their fields of specialty. So for instance, take psychology. There's developmental psychologists, there's social psychologists, there are psychologists that focus on Labor and Industrial Relations. There are cognitive psychologists, neuroscientists, all of those, if, depending on how you're going to look at the problem you want to study, all of those represent a different way of organizing the learning opportunities on campus. How you organize those learning opportunities that starts building out a field of study. But the other thing that's important in doing this is finding out who is doing that thing you want to do, because all of a sudden you walk out into the world, right? And this world, by the way, could be faculty doing their research and they're discovering things that, wow, if I was to do it all over again, I would be doing this for my course selection instead of that, because this is what I'm encountering right now, and students can bring that information back into how they begin to design what their curriculum or their course of study is, and that's the difference. It's an active design process, not from an advisor or a faculty member talking about degree requirements, but from a student designing the pieces of their curriculum. Julian Alssid: Just going back for a minute. I mean, this makes all the great sense and and I think anyone you know, so many of us can hearken back to that faculty or administrator that kind of helped us help the lights go off. But I guess I do wonder, and I don't know, maybe I'll love this one to you, Scott, this requires a bit of a mind shift for a lot of faculty. I mean, I don't think you know, they signed on to be the Career Counselor, the social networking expert, along with the, you know, the content expert and expert instructor. So A, what's your view about that? And B, how are we going to get from here to where you guys think we need to go? Scott Carlson: I mean, I think what you're asking is sort of what I'm picking up from what you're asking is, you know, an implement, an implementation sort of factor here, like, how does this actually happen on a college campus, right? And so kind of part, you know, what we envision, you know, we wrote Hacking College in this very conversational style that allows anyone to read it and anyone to sort of adopt the practices there. Because, you know, on one hand, people you know, they sort of asked us, do you want after this, this book came out of a story that I wrote for The Chronicle called the crusade against terrible advising, right? And after the article came out, you know, Johns Hopkins Press and others had asked, Do you want to turn this into a book? Do you want to write a book about advising? And we really didn't want to write a book about advising. We wanted to write about these structures that cause students to fall off the path. And in writing the book, we wanted to write it in this accessible style, because we sort of felt that everyone on a campus should be able to read this and then work with the students that they, in particular, have in their orbit. That's how you're going to sort of increase, increase the touches that that students have with people on campus, right? We can't just sort of lay this all on advisors, or lay this all on faculty advisors, and in part of the part of implementing this, part of what we're getting at is that what the colleges can do is they can, they can sort of adopt this as a mind frame at the colleges where everyone is sort of speaking this field of study, language and instructing students how to how to go about this, how to talk to people, how to find these contacts that are going to help instruct them in how to design their undergraduate degree. Now, these can be faculty members, but we're hopeful that when the students do encounter the faculty members, when they are working with them. They're working with the faculty members that share this kind of passion, or this hidden intellectualism, or this area of interest, this place where they're going to have a head start on the conversation, because they're already into what the faculty are talking about. And those faculty members, members then will be motivated to work with those students, because those students are in the area that they're interested in. I mean, a big part of the social capital that we talk about in hacking college comes through cultural capital. You know, the conversation about social capital is everywhere in higher ed right now. It's about who you know, right? But a big point that we're making in hacking college is that what drives the social capital is the cultural capital. It's the stuff that you're bringing as a person to the other person in making this link across interests, hidden intellectualism, obsessions, that kind of thing. So this is, I think, a big key to sort of making these relationships work. Ned Laff: And another part of it is this is very much the student is agent. So there's a student in doing this, they're creating networks. So it's not like I'm I am dependent on a faculty member. There could be three or four faculty members. There could be somebody in student affairs that they talk to, they go out on what we call this research, investigative inquiry, and start talking to people in the areas that they're interested in, and they're bringing information back there. Then they can sit, perhaps with somebody in an advising office and say, Here, I've got all this information. Now, how do I put the how do these pieces start to come together so that I can graduate under the requirements of a major, right? But design the pieces so it gets me to where I want to go. So it's very much a process of students building out their social capital, building out their cultural capital, learning how to network with people on campus and off campus, right? These are all the skills that everyone says people need, right? But they're doing this to design their undergraduate field of study. So in the process of doing their undergraduate education, all these mystical skills of oral communication and teamwork and stuff, they're all coming together, because what's driving it is the students' hidden intellectualism and their vocational purpose. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, I mean, I really appreciated in the in the book, when you know you had a line, it's not where you go to college, but how you do college that matters. That really stuck out to me. And I think, you know, as as we're thinking about the the social and cultural capital, and you know, one point in the book, you raise this concept of the hidden jobs, and you take it in a slightly different direction than I think we sometimes hear it talked about like it's not just about what's posted on LinkedIn as a job opportunity or not, but really that other definition around like pulling back the curtain of the world of work and helping learners really get an understanding of what are all the different job opportunities and career paths available in what might be. I mean, you, I love the scenario of working in a museum, right, like, but would love to, would love just to hear you talk a little bit more about that and what that, you know, what going down that path, through those hidden jobs, can really unearth for learners. Ned Laff: You know, this is where students, all of a sudden, everything changes for them. I sent this one to Scott recently because I didn't know this existed. There is a national Egg Board. I mean, isn't that cool? It's it's a national organization, and what they deal with is eggs, the eggs you eat. So that means, when you think about it, they have to have a director, they have to have communications, they have to have organizational structure. There's all these things out here. You will never see the National... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/35493730

Frederick Wehrle: Optimizing Adult Learning with AI 02/16/2025

Frederick Wehrle: Optimizing Adult Learning with AI Frederick Wehrle, Assistant Dean for Academic Innovation and Learning at UCLA Extension, discusses his research on using AI to optimize adult learning. Wehrle focuses on developing AI-powered instructional tools and approaching learning and course design from a neuroscience perspective. He shares practical strategies for educators and learners to keep pace with the changing needs of industry, including advice on the best ways to use AI for learning and development. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Julian Alssid: We spend a lot of time in the show, in our consulting engagements, talking about best practices for building effective, engaging programs and learning experiences for adult learners. It's a topic I find endlessly fascinating. Kaitlin LeMoine: As do I Julian, building programs grounded in the principles of andragogy, and allowing adult learners to demonstrate what they know and can do is so critical. Julian Alssid: Couldn't agree more. And I often think back to our time at Southern New Hampshire University, where we helped to build College for America that project based, competency based online program was a real breakthrough moment in higher ed. Kaitlin LeMoine: It really was. College for America was designed to reach adult learners who had many skills but had not previously earned a college degree. The program offered them a way to demonstrate mastery of competencies through projects aligned to real world deliverables that met academic requirements in an online and asynchronous format. Julian Alssid: Our guest today is doing some really fascinating work in the space of adult learning and course design, taking the notion of learning, design and optimization to a whole new level. Kaitlin LeMoine: He certainly is. We're excited to have Frederic Wehrle on the show with us today. He's the Assistant Dean for Academic Innovation and Learning at UCLA Extension. Frederick joined UCLA in 2023 after serving at UC Berkeley Extension since 2018. Before immigrating to the US, Frederick led accreditation and International Relations at business schools in Paris, France. He's held faculty and administrative positions in France and in the US, and served as an advisor and mentor to startups, nonprofit organizations and universities worldwide. Grounded in research on innate and in learned behavior, Frederick focuses on developing AI powered instructional tools and applications of those tools to adult learning. Essentially, he's approaching learning from the perspective of neuroscience and exploring how we can optimize it. Welcome to Work Forces, Frederick. Frederick Wehrle: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for the very kind intro. I'm very excited to be with you. Julian Alssid: Well, and we're excited to have you here as well, Frederick, welcome to get us rolling here. Caitlin said a bit about your background, but we'd love to hear in your own words about your background and what brought you to your work. Frederick Wehrle: Most fundamentally, I would say my background is in behavioral sciences, human behavioral sciences. I specialized during my studies, actually, back in Germany, on behavioral ecology, neuroscience, anthropology and bioinformatics, and my key interest there was innate behavioral patterns and pre existing biases. So things that we are born with in terms of mental pathways, and I've been fortunate to be able to do a PhD in Paris at the Sorbonne where I was specializing in consumer behavior, which is kind of this subgroup of management and marketing sciences that actually looks how marketing and marketers are able to manipulate people, and then tries to explain how that works and give the tools to corporations and policy makers, I would say, to regulate if necessary. So when I was saying hey, I actually study, from a biology or biological perspective, how humans react without knowing that they do or act without knowing that they do, that was very interesting for the people in that field. And so that really was, let's say, my education background, I was able and lucky to become a faculty relatively early on in business schools in France, and put my my work to practice and apply a lot of this neuroscience into my teaching, and then very quickly, was asked to use it to design courses, design programs, to design entire degree programs, review the entire structure, if you want, of of schools through accreditation processes, build new types of partnerships and so on internationally. And when I got the opportunity to move to the US in 2018 there was an opportunity at UC Berkeley, and their continuing education division, extension division. I was very excited, because I've been I've been concerned with AI laying off millions of people or displacing millions of people, 10 years ago already, and I was mostly concerned because I didn't find anyone particularly at that time concerned. And I thought, with the background that I have and the theories that or the research I was pursuing, I'm effectively on to figuring out how we can make education at least three times more effective and efficient. So here in California, first at UC Berkeley and now at UCLA, this is really what I'm pursuing, and that is really figuring out how how to teach differently so that learning becomes much, much more effective. Kaitlin LeMoine: So can you tell us a little bit about what your current research is focused on and what you're learning. I mean, I'm intrigued by the concept of, you know, making education at least three times more effective, right? So, like, let's, let's dive in there. Frederick Wehrle: Despite the fact that it was over five years in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley and so on, I'm still humble. I'm only 3x ing. It not 10x ing. And yeah, they would not be happy. I couldn't pitch this to Google, probably. But the interesting perspective is that, unfortunately, let's say neuroscientists really haven't looked into how learning happens naturally through most of our lives, before the late 2000s, so about maybe 15 years ago or so, and actually started working on animals, and later figured it out with humans. And it's quite fascinating to see how that relatively recent research paints a very different picture of how we learn. For me that can be easiest understood if we think about what we're doing right now. So we're having a conversation. We're talking about things that we have some mental representation of education. Our brains are active. And in this situation, everything I'm saying, I don't have to repeat. You don't have to write it down and put it on a Quizlet card and learn it by heart and so on. Everything I say, maybe with one or two repetitions, you're able to assimilate. That's actually the proper term for this process in neuroscience, you assimilate that information into an active framework in your brain, a schema, and that active framework adapts to that new information, and so it's memorized. And so effectively, this process of learning, contrary to what still most education scientists and learning scientists believe, does not have any blockers. So the system that most education is still built around is a system of repetition. Because also in neuroscience, we were able to prove that if you have to learn something anew, completely anew, without any context and without any mental frameworks active or schemas active, you have to build those frameworks. You have to repeat, repeat, repeat, and that's how synaptic pathways are built and reinforced until they they're there, and that is usually now, if you look at the broader picture and child development or human development, that's really just how humans learn very early on in their childhood, like the famous light switch that you kids click 100 times until they figured out the principle of the light switch, right? But once you have that framework, once you like this basic pathway is built through repetition, and then, especially as you have kind of finalized building those frameworks, you're really switching most of the time, throughout your life, into this other pathway that has been discovered only more recently, which is information is just assimilated into active frameworks and those frameworks adapt unless You sit at school in a classroom that is sterile or at least out of context, and you learn from a book out of context, from a person out of context. And for me, the these things were, particularly, as I say, egregious, and became very, very clear when I was working in business schools back in France, or early on, even in my career, because in France, like in Germany, you have a system, or systems that are very popular, which is called apprenticeship models. And the most fascinating thing there is, is that you have a very large amount of students studying their entire three year bachelor program (Europe is three years for bachelor's,) or your two year master, either full time studying or in an apprenticeship where you work about 60% of the time and then you study about 40% of the time. What is fascinating about this is, all students finish on time. If I share this oftentimes here in the US, people like pause and scratch their heads and say, how's that possible? Especially like, there are institutions that really are extremely proud and adamant about saying that you really need to be full time otherwise, like you can't dedicate yourself and so on and so forth. And I think that's true. If what you're studying is sciences, where you actually spend a lot of time in sciences or even humanities and so on, but you are, like doing it, and you're preparing for university environment you want to become a researcher, then, yes, you're effectively doing an apprenticeship in in the university, but for many, many other fields, it doesn't make sense. So this is the background, if you want that I'm basing my work on. And I find it particularly fascinating to think about workforce development and to do this in continuing education, because the, let's say the good instructor and the good learning designer in this field already knows that the best and most efficient way to teach is to be able to kind of capture the students where they are, is to be able to understand who they are like with what knowledge do they come in there, and then, if it's in a life interaction likework with with what they bring to the table and their experiences, and organize in a way where they can share and practice with their experiences. So this is a very good background for me to to push that forward and formalize it a little more, to be honest, though, I must say, much more of a experimentalist than I'm a theorist. So I do spend much more of my time, or have over the last decade, experimenting, building the types of courses, running them, seeing how they work and so on, rather than spending my time writing literature reviews and contributing to a relatively set field of research, which is all based on a very different approach to education. Julian Alssid: So given your your approach as an experimentalist here, and we're, you know, Kaitlin and I are also very grounded and in this kind of bringing together, this intersection of work and learning, which we think you know clearly has to be theoretical in many respects. But ultimately, people need a job. They need to apply themselves. And flashing forward to from eight years ago, when you saw the future, what do you see as some of the greatest opportunities for using generative AI in learning and course design, and also, conversely, what are some of the biggest challenges? Because it seems to be the story of the day. Frederick Wehrle: Yes, it's the story of all our lives. So I'm actually hopeful that through the work I'm doing, also with colleagues, we're able to to provide some some way through this, I can maybe start with the challenges, because that's maybe top of mind for many people. In my experience, interestingly enough, I think the biggest challenge comes from a lot of resistance from the people that are the faculty, instructor slash expert, or also the instructional designers, the learning designers, who I think, like in many professions, don't feel very easy about the introduction of AI because it seems like it is getting at the core of what they are doing and what they're contributing. And having spent a lot of time, evidently, like overseeing these types of teams and being with a lot of colleagues, I realize it's justified in a certain way, because nobody has given many people that are not deeply into AI a framework and somewhat of a roadmap to where this all will go, and it's certainly not a goal of what this will look like at the end. So if you want as an as an experimentalist, the beauty here is that I was able to work out, and am working out with some colleagues of universities across the US a framework on how to effectively use generative AI for course content development, either in the role of a subject matter expert, so the AI can take the role of subject matter expert, and an instructional designer can actually go and build the entire baseline of a course, if you want, that then gets reviewed and analyzed by a human subject matter expert, or in the other form of an instructional designer, where subject matter expert has the help to effectively design the entire baseline of a course with generative AI. The point of us coming together is to figure out how to do this in a structured way, provide a framework how that looks like, and demonstrate how you get to a very high quality output and how much time that can save you, for example. Now, the interesting thing is, we're doing this because at that point the entire all the professions in the entire industry will say, like, okay, so we can actually get this if we do XYZ, if we follow that pathway. Now we can adopt it without having that much fear, because we see that all the jobs across the entire if you want production line are maintained. And the beauty is, once we have a little bit more time back on our clocks in all the different roles, we can now actually think of using a generative AI or just, let's say, the classroom to do other forms of education and things that we never have been able to do as much as we want to do. So if I talk to any instructional designer or learning designer, they're always unhappy about the fact that they never get to really roll out all the amazing methods of instructional design, or learning design, for all the activities they could do. Spend more times focusing on what different learning methods they could apply. Never spend enough time on the actual if you want learning structure, never spend enough time on case studies, or the assignments could be much better, much deeper, and so on and so forth. If I talk to faculty and subject matter experts, they always fall short on time in terms of sharing their research, sharing their practice, what they actually love, if they're teaching live, they really love the live interaction, right? But what they do is a lot of times it's just roll down a slide deck that they spend all that time preparing, then they're actually not really prepared to share anything else. So ultimately, the beauty there as a first step is that generative AI, by accelerating a lot of the groundwork, will be able to allow you, as an instructor, for example, to spend much more time engaging with the students. If you're able to build an entire learning experience relatively quickly. As a learning designer, then you can think about, what can we do beyond just the course production to make sure the learners have the opportunity to learn more effectively. And this is where I get particularly excited, because that's where it then comes the second part of AI. Now we can use AI to do something that is very much akin to the better way of learning, which is simulations, which is personalized content, which is activities that allow you to learn in a pseudo social environment, that is things that allow you to be much more applied, and so on and so forth. So we are. We're able to use generative AI to do groundwork, and then we're able to use generative AI with this neuroscientific background that I shared with you to create new formats of education. Kaitlin LeMoine: It does occur to me, Frederick, as you're talking, and be curious as to your thoughts on this, that really you know you, you, we began this conversation with you, talking about the process of, for adult learners, of really assimilating existing information into or new information into an existing framework. And it occurs to me that, I mean, with, with AI, even if, like you said, right, it's maybe, maybe you've been aware of it for many, many years, and maybe now people have been aware of it for a year or so, adults are, I think, developing a new framework around AI. And so, how does you know? What is that work? What does it look like to apply your own kind of research, and the research around neuroscience and like related adult learning principles to this advent of this new age that we live in. Frederick Wehrle: I think it's almost like a perfect storm on education and learning at the moment, and the pressure is as much on higher education, secondary education as it is on workforce development. I think the forces that are coming together is that leads to adult learners asking for more, asking for efficiency in learning, and are just not ready and willing to sit through content just cause, just because. Somebody put it into a framework. And it actually turns out, in my experience, that the educators themselves do not particularly enjoy producing the baseline content. They'd actually much rather spend the time and their time and energy on what is valuable. So in terms of AI and workforce development, I've two perspectives. The first one is a lot of people need and want to learn more about AI and how that will impact their their work. And the second one is the environment. And AI enables them to learn anything that they need to move ahead and go further in their in their jobs, and stay ahead in their careers, or maybe even in certain situations, change their careers. So the first one how to learn about AI, I think the most critical part there is similar to what we're trying to do with that group of partner universities, institutions, organizations have to invest into, let's say, the experimenters in innovation labs and structures that will allow their organization to paint a picture of what it will look like in the future. Otherwise, you will always have that, that very strong resistance. And for you as a person, it is very difficult any individual kind of it's very difficult to to navigate the path of insecurity. And I think right now, with AI learning, there's so much out there. How do I stay informed? There's so much FOMO, and you feel like any hour you spend on that one thing, if you're interested in this, is a hour you lose, because then you didn't focus on the other thing. So you never feel on top of the situation. So I think there is a lot of work to be done by organizations to actually invest into people that are able to provide frameworks and an outlook of what it will look like if your organization is not doing that, and you are an individual, I always recommend actually going to events if you have the opportunity, be it... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/35303800

Matt Evans: Julius Education & the Future of Workforce Tech 02/04/2025

Matt Evans: Julius Education & the Future of Workforce Tech Matt Evans is CEO of Julius Education, a company that provides workforce technology tools to help job seekers and employers navigate fast-developing industries. Matt shares his background in emerging fields, including online learning and water technology, and his journey to Julius Education. He highlights the lack of detailed data on occupations, particularly in sectors like clean energy, where job titles are often inconsistently used. The conversation also explores the challenges and opportunities of using technology to provide granular, real-time data for effective workforce planning and engagement. Evans provides examples of successful partnerships and offers advice for building new models. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. So Julian, it's been fascinating to see how many of our recent conversations on the podcast and in our consulting projects keep coming back to the need for a dual customer approach to bridging talent gaps, one that provides employers and learners or job seekers with the tools they need to navigate fast developing industries. Julian Alssid: Absolutely, Kaitlin. It's a topic that's becoming more and more critical, especially with a rapid emergence of AI transforming the labor market and emerging sectors like advanced manufacturing, life sciences and clean energy are being particularly impacted, and we're seeing employers in those sectors struggle to find qualified candidates and job seekers often don't know what jobs exist and have the opportunities out there aligned with their own interests. Kaitlin LeMoine: Absolutely, that's right, and we've been hearing from so many of our guests about the growing mismatch between the skills that employers need and the skills that job seekers possess. This is especially true in fields that are being rapidly transformed by changing technologies and AI where the pace of change is accelerating and the skills gap is widening. Julian Alssid: Yeah, and it's not just about finding people with the right technical skills, but also about fostering those human skills like critical thinking, communication, and problem solving that are essential for success in any field. Those are the skills that will set people apart in an AI driven world. Kaitlin LeMoine: Definitely. And that's why we're so excited to have Matt Evans, CEO and co founder of Julius Education, join us today. Julius education is a workforce technology company that addresses the talent needs of fast moving industries such as energy, semiconductors, advanced manufacturing and others to help them keep pace with the rapidly changing economy using AI and machine learning, the company addresses talent gaps to make sure employers, learners and job seekers have the information they need to navigate these dynamic sectors. Julian Alssid: Before Julius, Matt was a Senior Vice President at Pearson, where he led the Online Learning Division and served a large network of university partners and adult learners. He's also a co founder of Imagine H2O A leading water Technology Accelerator. So he knows a thing or two about fostering talent in emerging fields. Kaitlin LeMoine: So without further ado, Matt, welcome to Work Forces. Matt Evans: Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Kaitlin LeMoine: Thank you for joining us. Welcome and we'd love for you to jump in now and to we'd love to hear more about your background and what brought you to your role at Julius Education. Matt Evans: We are a workforce technology company. We use AI and machine learning to provide really, first of its kind, industry specific labor market intelligence and a suite of workforce tools to support fast moving industries keep up with the pace of change, as you alluded to Kaitlin. And so our work spans the industries that are really dynamic to the economy, from energy and semiconductors, advanced manufacturing, biotech, and we work with a really interesting set of partners from industry such as major employers and industry associations, to regional coalitions, to government agencies at the federal, state and and local level, who are all focused on this work in my background, as Julian you alluded to, has been in the education technology space for the past 20 years, and most Recently at Pearson at the same time, for the past 15 years or so, I've been on the board of this organization driving water technology innovation called Imagine H2O and what that experience really drove home for me was for all these critical industries, Water among them, but not exclusively. We need new technologies, we need new policies, we need new forms of capital for these industries to thrive. But there's this whole people component, which historically has not been getting the same level of attention, and so that's really was the the innovating spirit behind Julius particularly in these industries, which we alluded to Kaitlin, which are going through significant change, with new jobs coming on board, new skills required, new employers popping up, and so that really is the context for for the work that we do at. That Julius, Julian Alssid: Yeah, well, it's certainly, it's certainly timely, Matt. I guess I'd love to hear, we'd love to hear some more about the problems that Julius is trying to address. You know, kind of digging a little bit further. Matt Evans: The core problem that our partners are facing is they simply don't have the data on the occupations that they care most about. So when they're trying to answer questions like, What is the demand in my region, in my specific industry, for specific roles down the job title level, if they're trying to understand, what are the skills and credentials that employers are actually looking for. If they're trying to say what is the future going to look like across all these dimensions, they just don't have the data that they need to understand that. And so with our approach, using AI machine learning, we're able to ingest large unstructured data sets and give them a real time view in the way that their industry talks about these jobs for which data previously, there had not been any data currently available for it. So that's the kind of the core the core problem. I think the change context that Kaitlin was teeing up is certainly exacerbating a lot of this dynamic so with the ripples of technology through the industries that we've touched on that's creating real complexity for folks who are in key decision making. Seats to say, how do I align an ecosystem or my resources to drive workforce outcomes? How do I understand exactly what employers need today and also going forward for the jobs that are important to them, for other stakeholders, like learners and job seekers, they're trying to understand what is this field? What are these job titles? What are the career paths when I go to indeed.com What am I supposed to be putting in here? What are skills do I have today, and how do they transfer into this potentially exciting new industry for me? So those are some of the kind of core problems at the stakeholder level that we are, that we are seeing folks had historically been trying to get at this. This is not a new problem, even though it's been exacerbated now by accelerants and change in technology. You've been trying to get at this with legacy tools. So doing things like employer surveys is one approach to get data on the local labor market needs that is often challenging, just given response rates and also given latency of getting the data back. And these things, entries are moving so quickly that often that data is stale by the time the surveys come back. If it's kind of 12 or 18 month cycle, other approaches have been to say, hey, can we use legacy data sets that oftentimes are some version or tied somehow to Bureau of Labor Statistics, SOC data. That's a little wonky, but that that that sock code folks may be aware of on this podcast, but that's also challenging, because those are really economy wide views, and they don't work for the industries in which we are, which we're focused on, or, you know, third folks may have great data for their industry down five jobs deep, but what they're really need is something that goes 250 jobs deep for their particular industry, within energy or within semiconductors, advanced manufacturing, biotech, etc. So really, that core issue is where Julius comes in, and we are supporting our partners really, with this very detailed, industry specific depth of data, and so we just take a fundamentally different approach to to provide that for, again, for these occupations that the data just doesn't hasn't previously existed. Kaitlin LeMoine: What is your process for beginning to unearth that level of detailed data? Matt, as you said, right, there are so many legacy tools, but what does it look like to live in this space of kind of rapid change and transformation, and how do you go about remaining current in that. Matt Evans: It's almost setting up the data infrastructure is kind of the way we think about it. Because, as you're alluding to, it doesn't really do folks any good to have kind of a, just a one time snapshot about what's going on across these, these, these jobs or labor market data that they care about. It's really how does their repeatable and ongoing view into these, these data needs. And so that's where our where our own kind of proprietary data and AI classification models provide for that ongoing data infrastructure which provides a current view on an ongoing basis. So that really is kind of the foundational piece of it, which is it gives us that ongoing pulse and allows us to continue to keep up with the pace of change with these industries, not just for today, but going forward as well. Great. Kaitlin LeMoine: So I mean. Diving a little bit deeper, please tell us. What are some current projects that you're working on, either within clean energy or any other sector you'd like to discuss. And what are you learning? Matt Evans: In clean energy? There's, there's a ton of things to point to. Maybe I'll call out two or or three. One example at the state level, one of our wonderful partners is Mass CEC, which is the Massachusetts Clean Energy Center, really leading the clean energy initiatives for for Massachusetts, they they're very focused on the workforce, in the workforce issues of the Commonwealth, and they've been through all the legacy tools that I was alluding to, the challenges in many of these kind of important sectors. In the clean energy economy, there's real fragmentation with how employers are talking about different roles. So they may employers may be using the same job title for for the same different job, excuse me, for different, for the same, for the same role, which is causing a lot of the lot of the complexity. So for Massachusetts, there's a priority set of occupations that they're trying to get much more precise on what's going on in labor market, one of which, for instance, is a role called an energy auditor, which is an essential role for energy efficiency and for high performance buildings, because they're the ones really helping to diagnose where there are energy inefficiencies and efficiencies within a within a minute building. It's also a critical role, because in some ways it's not just kind of the output of a lot of effort focused on energy efficiency. In some ways it's the upfront constraint to ensure this actually happening. It's a leading indicator to say, hey, if we have enough energy auditors or not, because if we don't, there's no way we can effectuate the rest of the energy efficiency strategy we need for for buildings. So it's a really, really key, key role. The challenge that we found in Massachusetts is that job is being called 40 different things by employers throughout the state that is, makes it so hard to get accurate understanding about what is employer demand for these roles, where in what county, skills certifications, all the kind of knock on on questions. So that would be kind of one really interesting example. There are other roles in that same kind of world, with with with mass CEC, like job titles, like assembler, which is can be a really important role in everything from electrical assembler, mechanical assembler, working assembling on kind of solar solar farms, but that catch all title or assembler really makes it kind of challenging to understand. Are we talking about junior level assemblers? Senior level assemblers? What kind of what segment of the clean energy economy actually talking to so you're trying to align the Massachusetts ecosystem with programming with dollars to serve employer needs. Getting much more precise about what we mean by these rules is really, really essential, and our data reveals that. So that so that would be another example of the work in Massachusetts as a learning. Julian Alssid: I can totally get the titles and the, you know, like and AI being really helpful and beginning to see through the different titles and find some common data grounding. Cutting across multiple industries, can you speak to other learnings that you that are transferable across industries. Matt Evans: One other, I think, example that that is, I think we found really interesting is we do a lot of work with employers, utilities in particular, and they're really interested in looking around a corner to understand the skills of the future and how their workforce is going to be impacted by macro trends in the energy landscape. So we've done some really interesting work with a major industry association called EPRI, the Electric Power Research Institute, to develop a framework which helps lay out how the mega trends shaping the industry impact job cluster areas as well as impact down to specific occupational areas. And so, for instance, if you're looking at, say, the impact of EV adoption, well one obvious place where that's going to show up is in kind of field technicians or EV kind of focused technician roles, but it's also going to show up in other jobs which don't necessarily have EV in the job title. So skills, what is a someone who's running programs and utility in which EVs is a part? What kind of skills do they have related to EVs? What does a customer service rep need to know about EVs, as well as when they get when they get questions about that. So really thinking kind of beyond specific roles, but for the skills impact, and that kind of framework is certainly applicable to other industries, about how do you think about what those mega trends are, and then how those cascade down to specific roles? And then, obviously with the data infrastructure. You're seeing, tracking how that really is being expressed by employees, and are they closing the gap between what needed for the skills of the future by role and then? And actually, is it is actually happening? Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting challenge. I mean, I guess it has been over the years, but I feel like it stands out more so than ever before, really, that, you know, there, it's like there are all these skills that you fall, that fall into many industries, and do employers recognize that? And do learners know and employees know how to talk about that? And is there that common understanding that, oh, well, the skills I'm using in this industry also apply in this one maybe with, like, this one little area of upskilling, right? Or something like, it feels like there's a lot of room for that, and room for building understanding and clarity around that transferability. Matt Evans: And also for learners and job seekers as well. So as I think, another kind of transferable application as well, to kind of bridge both your questions. We did some work with the DOE analyzing advanced manufacturing, the intersection advanced manufacturing, semiconductor roles, and how we can bring that to life in the right kind of career navigation solutions for understand, for folks to understand the progression pathways. So we looked at 100 different roles within the sector, and 250 different career pathways to really help people understand, what are these jobs, which I may have heard about, maybe I haven't really, what are the career pathways? What does that look like over time? And interestingly enough, over 50% of the jobs and did not require a four year, four year degree. And so that story also is, I think, an important one across many of the dynamic industries in which we work, certainly there are roles which require kind of higher level degrees, for sure, but there's also a lot of career pathways which which don't and so bringing that to life for learners and job seekers, I think, is really important aspect that certainly is transferable across a lot of these a lot of these sectors. Julian Alssid: I'm interested that, looking at your website, and given your sort of intro, you're, you know, you're sort of similar to our consulting work, you know, sort of workforce development being this kind of, this intersection of work and learning. Be being multidisciplinary. It sounds like your kind of partnerships and partners and are being used by many different types of groups, from government intermediaries to, you know, employers and I'm assuming, educators and not individuals. Where are you seeing sort of the greatest pickup at this stage in terms of groups that are really looking to get on board with and bake this kind of data use into their work. Matt Evans: The folks that are, I think, particularly focused on kind of the data and consuming that data infrastructure are folks that we think are almost these kind of conveners. So they're really convening stakeholders, and they need the data to really kind of align the ecosystem around a commonly understood set of employer problems. So that convener hat we've seen is is worn by some industry association. It could be worn by a utility because oftentimes they're thinking actually more broadly than a typical employer is about their region, but certainly kind of regional, kind of coalitions are important part of of that. And then there are certain kind of government agencies who are also getting that charge, such as such as Mass Mass EC. So the kind of the the intersection really is these fast moving industries and those kind of convener types, but they may wear kind of different, different hat, depending on the particular region, the protection of the industry in which we're which we're talking but that's, that's the common thread. Julian Alssid: And just Just a follow up to that. I mean, we've seen over the years, often data tools, you know, are purchased or used by organizations, and they kind of end up dying on the vine or shelves or whatever, the digital equivalent of that would be collecting dust somewhere. How do you ensure that that doesn't happen with your client, your clients and partners? Matt Evans: It's a it's a great question. There is often, we've seen this the same the same thing, and so there's often a conversation that we continue to have with our partners on an ongoing basis and with the ecosystem of partners that they're bringing into it that needs to be had about how do we make sense of this data, and kind of, what do we do about it? I think what we've seen is the data provides not only kind of a roadmap of what's needed, but it's an accelerant of aligning the stakeholders around a... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/35132235

Naomi Boyer on Skills-Based Learning & Systems Change 01/21/2025

Naomi Boyer on Skills-Based Learning & Systems Change Naomi Boyer, Senior Vice President of Digital Transformation at Education Design Lab, discusses the importance of skills-based learning and how to align education with workforce needs. Boyer also discusses the need for trust and transparency in the talent marketplace, and a common language and framework for discussing skills and competencies. The episode also covers the importance of collaboration between education and industry. Boyer provides examples of successful partnerships and offers advice for building new models. The episode concludes with a discussion of the importance of empowering individuals to take control of their learning journey. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. One of the biggest challenges we face in aligning education to workforce needs is a disconnect between education and industry, especially when it comes to building new learning models. Julian Alssid: So true Kaitlin and this gap became apparent as we began to shift to a knowledge based economy 30ish years ago, and addressing the gap is a big part of what attracted both of us to education and workforce development in the first place. But now it's taken center stage. Workers and students are frustrated and falling behind, and employers are way more interested in addressing the disconnect than ever before. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yes, there is now a much greater emphasis on skills from skills based hiring to skills based learning. And while identifying common skills across education providers and employers is a piece of the work, we also need to drive broader systems level change. Julian Alssid: Yeah, and as we know from our own consulting work, this is no small task, and and our guest today is is working on bringing sense and clarity to systems level efforts. And you know, we're excited to welcome Naomi Boyer to the podcast today. Naomi Boyer: Thanks so much for having me excited to be here. Kaitlin LeMoine: Thank you so much for joining us, Naomi To give a bit of background on Naomi's years in this work, she's a driving force in transforming education for the future of work. As senior vice president of digital transformation at the Education Design Lab, she leads initiatives on digital micro credentials, skills based learning, and competency frameworks, ensuring learners are equipped for success in a rapidly evolving economy. With over two decades of experience in higher education, Naomi has a proven track record of innovation in areas including distance learning, faculty development and global initiatives. She is a recognized expert in competency based education and a passionate advocate for self directed learning, and we're very excited to have her with us on the podcast today. So thank you for being here. Julian Alssid: So Kaitlin, gave a little of your background, but would love to hear your own words about your background and your role at the Education Design Lab. Naomi Boyer: Thanks so much, Julian, I so first I don't have supreme clarity. If I did, we'd all be rich and have everything figured out in our society and everything else. But part of, part of why I'm in this work is because I have a passion for transforming education and learning and really helping facilitate differences for people in people's lives, right? And so that's an ongoing journey, and I don't think it's ever anything we're going to solve, but we can certainly make it easier and help people find their path as they go along. And so I actually started my journey in special education, and I think I use those skills every bit along the way here, even as I continue my my own journey through life. And so I went from teaching special education to becoming a mom, and then went back and worked on my doctorate in a really funky area at the time, distance learning. And actually my doctorate, my specialty was in systemic change, or organizational change and systemic leadership. And then wrote my dissertation though on building online learning communities and international environments. So this is back in 2001 so at the advent of of online learning, and it was at this point in my life that that I really began realizing that I can't always decide on going from point A to point B, you got to kind of follow the journey and the rolling the rolling hills as you go along, and it'll take you to some really cool and fun places. And so through that journey, I ended up at in higher ed, as you said, for over 17 years, both at the at a university, research one university, and at a community college and vice president positions that allowed me to do strategic innovations and change and contribute to all the cool stuff. I was chief information officers for five, five of the last years of that scope, and then jumped over to education Design Lab, which you will hear me affectionately call to to speak about is the Lab versus education Design Lab. I joined them over about six years ago, and came in and working on digital, micro credentials and a bunch of other things. I can tell you a little bit about the Lab, the position I'm in now at the Lab, I'm having the opportunity of really diving into three areas that are passionate for me. You've heard me say, education, transformation, the personalization of learning, I think, is key and really a disrupter, which some of what I heard in one of your last podcasts with Michael Horn. He was talking about some of those driving forces of personal, personalization of learning, and then the individual and empowerment in the learning process and how an individual can gain control over their own processes of learning in life, and this is not something that we necessarily cultivate in our K12 or even many of our higher ed classrooms. We cultivate compliant learners. And so people understanding and learning how to take control of their own learning process becomes absolutely instrumental. And so when I joined the Lab, I was able to bring all of those three things together. And basically, I get to run amok. I'd love to run them up and and contribute. And that's why I say we don't have it all figured out. So using human centered design is the methodology of the Lab, and get to deal with the many pervasive issues have created a fractured and limited talent development continuum, and how do we think about the things in between? And so the Lab has basically three streams of work to do this, one of which is college transformation, where we work directly with community colleges and help them think about new and innovative non degree credentials that they can introduce to be responsive to the local workforce and learners. You know, we do some deep work and understanding who the new majority learner is, and we use the word new majority, majority to refer to all of those learners that higher ed was not was those who fall out of the scope of who Higher Ed was originally designed for, right? Like the 18 to 22 year old that was going to is going to go full time to university. So the new majority are those. They don't fit into that mold. And then the area that I cover, which is digital transformation, which sounds like it's all about technology, but it's about leveraging the technology for that human experience. So how do we really think about human change, access and opportunity, right? And really think about it for those who in order to improve social mobility, economic vitality, for those who need it the most, Kaitlin LeMoine: As you mentioned the last, the last focus of your work, the digital transformation piece, I appreciate your call out of like, it's not just about the technology, but can you tell us a little bit more about when you say, yes, our work is around digital transformation, what that means and what, what the problems are that you're looking to address through, through that element of your work. Naomi Boyer: There's no doubt that technology needs to be a component of thinking about scalable, accessible, innovative options for facilitating. I can go back to the beginning, where I said personalization, of learning and really rethinking the way we do things. In our current talent market, there's a disconnect between the way we have, we may be using the technology tools to apply for a job, but we're not necessarily capitalizing on those tools so that Naomi can say what I know and can do, so that my skills are captured in such a way that they become transparent. So, you know, at the Lab, we deal with a number of problems, I'll say, or issues, challenges that are in that talent continuum. And I like to say we deal with wicked issues, big, hairy issues, right? Like portability, transfer, ability, flexibility, and my work with digital transformation is really around the visibility. So how do we make each individual skills visible, not only just for everyone else, but for themselves. What are the skills that I have? How do I then document those skills? How do I see the skills I need along a career trajectory, and then how do I make those skills visible in the marketplace for others to find me, and for me to find those a match up with, with the skills that I have, right? And so whether that's through digital micro credentialing, whether that's through what we call learning and employment records, whether it's through the validation and trusting of establishing trust and what someone knows and can do, there's all of these issues around visibility, and that's how we're using the technology to allow an individual to flow through their process and fund it. But it's not about necessarily programming and technology, just about the technology. Julian Alssid: Yes, indeed. I mean, that's, yeah, that's That's great. It's all the stuff we love. Kaitlin, I mean, come on. So I'd love to hear a little bit about projects that you're most excited about currently, where, you know, where you're employing, you know, this personalization in the digital strategies. You know you'd mentioned Texas and Arizona when we talked. Earlier, but about some projects you're most excited about. Naomi Boyer: And some of the projects that that I'm going to describe right now deal also with some of those big, hairy issues I mentioned, right like so. So one of the things that we're, I'm hearing a lot from employers, is is, is trust, not necessarily trust in the way you may hear some of our colleagues who are more technically focused, talk about which is the verification of credentials, but more about the trust whether this credential represents the true skills someone has, and that's the skill validation piece of things. And I've heard from employers that it's a crowded, crowded marketplace out there right now, as far as what the credentials mean and what it looks like and how they can consume them. I've heard from my colleagues at the SHRM Foundation that that it, you know, they spend somewhere between four to six seconds HR leader sends to spend somewhere between four to six seconds on resumes and as part of that hiring process. So how can I make sense of all of these credentials and information that's coming in in this new skills based marketplace. And so that's one piece of it, the other one, and one of those problems, is that that the skills continuum from learning the skills documentation of those skills, transfer those skills, and then using those skills for each to communicate something, whether that's into a higher ed degree, into another higher ed learning experience, or into some sort of employment, those systems are broken because you have your education systems working and trying to get in play in this marketplace, you have your workforce support organizations that are are talking about skills and doing their skills, and you have your employers who are doing the same thing, and most folks are in their own silos, in their own organizational sectors, trying to figure this stuff out, but the systems are not being connected together. How do we think about connecting those systems? In fact, I have a colleague from Colorado who's involved in a project called the skills forward, work that's being doing, being done nationally. And she described the Colorado project, what's something they didn't know going into the project was and of course, she was using a metaphor, very Colorado issue of trees. And she says each organization as a group of trees. But what didn't exist were the roots in between to connect those systems, right? And so the projects I'm going to tell you, I'm going to talk to you about, are all about, how do we connect these systems, establish more trust and really allow these the conversations to happen around regions and industries, to leverage the economic change that we're trying to create. So the first one I'll talk a little bit about is in Texas right now. And in fact, they I just heard that there was new legislation that was being introduced to increase their crypto currency abilities. And you know, the Bitcoin developing Bitcoin resources. But right now, the area of Western Northern Texas, I'll say, from Dallas to Odessa is burgeoning forth with data processing centers, both traditional data processing centers and those that are more say on the crypto, Blockchain side of things. And there's a difference in those lines of industries. There's the same industry, but two tracks, because of the type of individuals that could be attracted, as far as talent that comes in the door to really work in those spaces. Right now, we're working on a project that is multifaceted. We started with the employers, did a number of salons, and heard and learned from the employers in this industry, what they needed, what their their deficits were, what was important. And then from there, we've been designing a project that will kick off in June and February with a convening, and we will have employers at the table. We will have education entities and alternative education entities, K 12, technical schools, universities, colleges at the table. We will have workforce and community based organizations at the table. And the idea is to create, is to get people, stakeholders, all in the room, having conversation and dialog, to create a flywheel around an industry and create a blueprint, trying to establish replicable blueprints that can create a connected talent ecosystem, which then attracts the industry, which is already coming to the region, because they already have like SpaceX coming to the region, and Google coming to the region, and Amazon coming to the region for these data centers. But if you want to have a successful industry movement like that, you've got to have the talent and so and because we, I know from my economic development partners that talent is one of the biggest things that you will they that is used in that space to attract i. A major industry to a region, and so we will be working over the next year and a half to create that dynamic ecosystem that can supply talent for the businesses that need it, that it will be an employer focused, business driven approach, and we will work with our education partners to help meet that pipeline, and hopefully, by the end of this entire project, we will also have those technological systems in place to make sure all of the entities are connected together and able to share the information and that skills visibility comes to the forefront. The Arizona work is all about doing for education, some of the ecosystem. Work you heard me describing in Texas, all of the higher ed entities, community colleges and universities in Arizona, are at the table having conversations about how they build their connected infrastructure so that they can minimize transition points for learners, high school into university, high school, into college, into the workforce, all these different back to college, back to university. And right now they're figuring out how they can consume credentials, much like we're trying to get employers to consume credentials in that space. They're the only that's the only project I know of that's really focused on the education side of things. Kaitlin LeMoine: Yeah, I find it so interesting what you just said a moment ago. I mean, everything you just said was very interesting. But one thing that sticks out to me in what, and what you just raised Naomi, is this concept of employers need to see talent in the space in order to be attracted to the region, and yet, learners need to know that there are jobs available for them to go into, right? And so it's like, it's kind of, like this chicken or egg phenomenon of, like, where do you start, right? And I feel like that's that's such a big challenge in this work is figuring out how to, as you're saying, build that flywheel, but you have to ground it in some kind of a starting point, right? Like, so curious. I mean, if you have any thoughts or insights there around, like, how do you start, right? What do you need to show first in order to, like, get this work going well. Naomi Boyer: And there's actually a third element there that's even adding another wheel going in, that hamster there, which is, which is all, is all about the emergent fields, right? So there's a number of emergent industries. Historically, we've always worked from targeted occupation lists. Where's the gap, where's the need, what do we need to fill? Right? And when you're talking about emergent industries, whether that's AI like this, data processing, sustainable energy, right? We can go into automation, robotics, we can talk about all that, but they're emerging industries, and as a result, you don't necessarily have the workforce data to support that those jobs are needed, which is coming first? And how do you think about this in this particular case? How did it start? And I would say that this has probably got to be it's a huge element and insight for myself and learning this past year champion, there's a local champion who is driving the effort and basically saying, and he's, he's talking to people. He's attracting, attracting businesses. And he is a very successful businessman. He He's the, he owns Cholla Energy and Cholla Petroleum, and he's been called out in the in the literature, is the crypto cowboy, but, but he is that voice in the region that has really started the movement to get the traction, to get like, where do you start? It was with him. He's the power and the voice behind it, and then, as a result, that's created other levers to make things happen, and then there is local market data that can support that. There was already a number of data processing organizations that were beginning to work there. Julian Alssid: As you're speaking now. I mean, it's making me think, Kaitlin, of some of our work as well. I mean, a project we've been doing in my home state where I'm sitting right now, Rhode Island, with this helping to build a plan for workforce development in the life sciences industry. It's, yes, it's that chicken or egg issue with respect to economic development, but it's also like, you also don't want to train people for jobs that don't exist yet. So it's also trying to figure out, like, Well, what do we do currently, that we do well, that we can build on, that can then become the basis for the attraction and training people for future jobs. It's a real it's a very delicate dance. Naomi Boyer: You're exactly right, Julian, because it is. Because even as we're talking about data processing now, data processing isn't new, right? We've had... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/34942465

Brandon Busteed on the Power of Experiential Learning 01/07/2025

Brandon Busteed on the Power of Experiential Learning Brandon Busteed, CEO of BrandEd, joins Work Forces to discuss the power of industry immersion in education. He shares his background as an edtech entrepreneur and executive at Kaplan and Gallup, and his journey to BrandEd, a company that partners with global brands like Sotheby's and The New York Times to offer experiential education programs built and taught jointly by industry leaders and academics. The conversation also explores the importance of hands-on learning and how better align educational experiences with the world of work. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid. Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained. Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. Welcome back. We're excited to be kicking off season four of Work Forces. Julian Alssid: As we kick off this new season, we're looking forward to diving into topics that resonate with you, our listeners, and connect with our consulting work as well. Kaitlin LeMoine: One topic that's top of mind for us is how to most effectively prepare learners for the jobs and careers they enter upon graduation. We're seeing more of an emphasis on models that bridge education and work, from work based learning to apprenticeships and internships. Julian Alssid: With increasing skill demand, we know that students need more experience when they graduate, whether from high school or post secondary programs. And in our work, we're involved with initiatives that are tackling this issue from different levels, from community colleges to statewide consortia. Kaitlin LeMoine: We're looking forward to our discussion with today's guests to explore how corporations can act as a driver of high quality industry aligned education. Brandon Busteed is the CEO of BrandEd, a family owned education company that partners with global brands like Sotheby's and the New York Times to offer experiential learning courses. He's a passionate advocate for work integrated learning, and believes the future of education will seamlessly blend learning and work environments. With a background as an ed tech entrepreneur and executive at Kaplan and Gallup, Brandon brings a wealth of experience to his current role. He's a recognized thought leader in education and workforce development, having founded a successful ed tech company and authored numerous articles and publications, Brandon is also a sought after speaker and serves on the boards of several organizations dedicated to improving education and workforce outcomes. We're thrilled to have him join us today for a deep dive into the exciting intersection of learning and work. So welcome to the Work Forces podcast, Brandon. Brandon Busteed: Yeah, thanks that to me is the most exciting intersection to be in the middle of, and I know you guys in your podcast have sat at that intersection as well, so I'm glad that we had an opportunity to meet up virtually here. Thanks for having me. Julian Alssid: Well, yeah, it is great to have you Brandon. And yes, we often use the that analogy of the intersection and what a messy intersection it is, but for people like you who help help us all trying to make sense of this crazy intersection. So yes, welcome. Kaitlin gave a little bit of your background, but we'd love to hear in your own words -- about your background and your current role at BrandEd. Brandon Busteed: Yeah. So you know, as you guys noted, I started down this education path literally right out of college as an undergrad. If you had asked me my senior year in college whether I was going to be in the education space, I would have probably told you no, really wasn't on the radar. And then, you know, I started a company. I started an education company that was focused on addressing a really important issue of college binge drinking, which at the time was, you know, at the top of the list of concerns among college leaders. And so that was, you know, kind of my first run as a founder and CEO of outside the classroom and in a very specific space, trying to address dangerous drinking and other drinking related behaviors on campus. And you know, when the organization was acquired, I had an opportunity to go help Gallup build an education and workforce development division. And that really in terms of, you know, where, where I am at. BrandEd is a bit of my origin story to why BrandEd. Because you guys may recall that during that time, Gallup issued this massive study on the outcome of college graduates. It was, you know, under the heading of the Gallup-Purdue Index, and to this day, still the largest representative study that's ever been done, looking at college graduates and their outcomes in work and in well being and other dimensions. And what was so important about that study was that work-integrated learning opportunities, if a student had one during college, doubled their odds of being successful later in life, not just from a workplace engagement perspective, but in their overall well being. And so if you think about the secret ingredients of education or the secret ingredients of college, one of the big aspects is work integrated learning. And Kaitlin, as you were doing the introduction, there's a lot of different derivatives of what we would call work integrated learning, but specifically it was things like whether a student had an internship where they were able to apply what they were learning in the classroom, that connectivity was really important, long term projects that took a semester or more to complete, again, mimicking more of a real world work environment. And so I pause on that part of my Gallup experience, because as I left and went to Kaplan and was able to work in a global role at Kaplan, specific to education, I was spending a lot of time looking at the learning and work intersection that included work that we did with Amazon and their Career Choice Program for upskilling their frontline workers, and even, you know, innovative options for high school students in enabling them to have a better understanding of jobs and careers, so that they could better understand what they should major in during college, right? So, so all that led to why BrandEd you know, I've been at BrandEd for just under a year now, and in simple terms, I looked at what they were doing and to me, and I won't take any credit for it, because I said this prior to my arrival, but there's no doubt that BrandEd is doing the world's best industry immersive education. And what do I mean by that? Right? We work with iconic brands, as you mentioned, organizations like the New York Times or Sotheby's or Manchester City, and we develop just incredibly engaging and exciting educational programs that are co taught by industry experts and educational experts that give students real, hands on experiences and applications. It gives them behind the scenes access to these organizations in the industry and access, not just to one but many experts from those industries to understand the incredible diversity of jobs that one could have in the art industry or the fashion industry or the sport business industry. And so I was excited to be part of that, and have, you know, been thrilled to be coming up on almost a year here so far. Kaitlin LeMoine: So can you tell us a little bit about the history of BrandEd? How did it start? And, you know, kind of, what was the, what was the impetus for, for the organization? Brandon Busteed: Yeah, I've had a few friends joke thinking that I must have started my own company because, you know, I called it BrandEd. It's just a coincidence that it happens to be, you know, very closely aligned my name, because BrandEd has been around for a good 20 plus years, Kaitlin, and it started with, interestingly enough, the acquisition of Sotheby's Institute of Art out of Sotheby's the Auction House. So Sotheby's had started Sotheby's Institute of Art, some 55 years ago as an educational institution that would train the future leaders of the art industry. And although, from the beginning, they certainly had the idea that it would help train future leaders at Sotheby's, they were very innovative in their thinking, in that they also knew it would be the kind of place that would contribute to talent and leaders in the industry writ large. And, you know, that's a consistent theme that I've seen in all of the brand partners we work with, you know, the New York Times. We run the school of New York Times that's a pre college program for high school students. But they very much see their their role as contributing to, you know, students going into the field of journalism having a better understanding of what the different roles are within that industry. And not just for the New York Times, but for the entire industry, if you will, media and journalism. Same thing can be said for the work we do with Manchester City and with Vogue and so anyway, the starting point was that acquisition, interestingly enough, of an educational institution being run inside of a company, realizing that education wasn't their wheelhouse, it wasn't their core focus, but that it had an important role in the world, and looking to an organization like BrandEd to run it in a, you know, highly professional academic way where there was a lot of alignment to educational outcomes. Similarly, the organization acquired what was then called Conde Nast College of Fashion out of Conde Nast, it was recently rebranded Vogue College of Fashion, so that's what it is now. And then we partnered with, I'd say, an organic partnership with both the New York Times and Manchester City in developing the programs there. So it's a really interesting example of a couple that were educational institutions started inside of companies that were very forward thinking and how they viewed talent development and talent development, not just for their organization, but for the industry in general, and then others who just saw the value of, you know, partnering to do this. Because I would say, if you ask me, what some of the secret sauce of our BrandEd programs is, it's a really simple example, but it's a powerful one, and it's co teaching. You know, we, we always have examples where a school invites somebody in to give a guest lecture. That's great. It's usually a one time thing. There's not a lot of prep. That person might be really great, engaging or not so much. You know, all the programs we do, they're co designed, curated, developed and taught by the industry experts and educational experts, which you would think of as teachers or faculty. I don't think that's unique to BrandEd, I think we do it in a world class way, but that's an example, I think, of where other educational organizations can make big strides in scaling this industry immersive opportunity. It's not rocket science, you know, but that co teaching is actually just a really rare example right now. Julian Alssid: Yeah, it's so interesting. Brandon hearing you, kind of talk about the history of the companies being so kind of at the forefront, and this notion of this immersive approach. But I also think back to the study you referenced when you were a Gallup that produced that big study. And it does seem like, and I don't know if this is chicken or an egg or whatever, but that study was big, and it, you know, it would highlight this issue about the work based learning component being so impactful, it seems that this has become way more of a storyline in workforce development than it was back then. And I'm curious from where you're sitting now, and since you did that study, like, why? What's going on? In your opinion, that's made this more front and center than ever before. Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I think the biggest driver is just when, when the price tag of education goes up, and especially higher education, and when the number one reason why people value higher education is to get a good or better job there starts to become a more rigorous return on investment calculation being done by prospective students and their families as they evaluate it, right? And, you know, if you say, hey, the number one reason why I value this degree or I'm going to pursue it is to get a good or better job, and you don't feel like that's happening, or that you're being, you know, really sufficiently prepared for that next step. Well, that, I think, is one of the big, big drivers, right? Cost has been going up. Doubts about the work, readiness of graduates has been going up as well. And so you've got a perfect storm of, I don't believe we're doing a good job of this work, you know, preparation or career readiness thing, and it's getting more and more expensive. And, oh, by the way, there's a lot of other interesting alternatives, right? And so it's been the backdrop of that. But, yeah, look, I think that study made a meaningful contribution to the thinking of the higher ed community around Wow, this is a valuable component. We do it, but we don't do it at scale like that was the big finding Julian from my study. About a third of college graduates had a job or internship where they were able to apply what they were learning in the classroom. So it's not zero, but two thirds are missing the mark. And you know, there's fresh data just this year from the Business-Higher Ed Forum that kind of speaks to this. There were 8.2 million college students who wanted an internship last year. Only 3.6 million got one, and of those, only 2.5 million had what they called a quality experience in that internship, right? Because we all know there's internships that are really great and some that are total duds. Well, what I take from that data? First, I'm a huge fan of internships. There aren't many people that are a bigger fan of internships than me, but you also realize they don't scale. So there's no data to suggest that the number of internships in the United States has increased over the last 30 or 40 years. Clearly, demand for it is sky high. And so you say, Okay, if you can get an internship grade. But short of that, what are the other ways that we can bring this valuable experience to more students at greater scale, and that's obviously why, you know, I'm so excited about the work that we're doing at BrandEd. I think we're going to make a meaningful contribution to that. Kaitlin LeMoine: So as you're talking about your learners, Brandon, who are your learners, and how do you reach them? Brandon Busteed: We work across the board, Kaitlin with each of our brand partners. We have pre college programs for high school students, primarily 10th, 11th and 12th graders. So that's clearly a big demographic that we serve, is current high school students who are looking to augment their high school academic experience with, you know, something that is really industry immersive. And we also serve undergraduate college students with opportunities to study away or study abroad, where, instead of the traditional study abroad experience, they're doing an industry immersive program with one of our brands, and then with Vogue and Sotheby specifically, we do operate master's degree programs within both of those organizations. So at Sotheby's, you know, we're known probably most prominently for our masters in our business, you would expect an organization like Sotheby's Institute of Art to probably have a degree like that. So, you know, within those two brands, we're serving Master's Degree students, but in terms of the largest volume of students that we're serving by number, it's clearly pre college students and undergraduates who are looking to add a valuable industry immersive experience to their otherwise academic portfolio. Julian Alssid: So Brandon, as you build out these immersive experiences with these global brands, what are the major successes and challenges you faced? Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, part of it is what we've invested a lot of time and energy and years as an organization and refining the, you know, the aspects of, how do you take the best of what you can learn in a work environment with the best of what academics do in terms of curating something that you know looks like an academic, you know, syllabus or schedule that has building sequential pieces to it, reflective components. You know, think about in the workplace. You know, how little we take time to reflect or digest a project, or be like, Hey, how did that go? You know, cutting edge organizations do a good job with debriefing and certain things like that. But anyway, to your good question, a lot of it has been refining the blending of these two worlds, right? And, you know, you've, you've all heard it. You know, a lot of academics who are trained in educational pedagogy have rarely had experiences outside of academia. And you know, they went, they went to graduate school for education, you know, they have a master's degree, but you know, relatively little work experience outside of being a student and outside of working in an academic environment. And then with a lot of the subject matter experts we work with, who have real jobs and real organizations, right? They haven't been trained in educational pedagogy. They haven't thought about, well, how do I make this engaging for a high school student? And so it's really been the efforts that we've invested in training both our educational experts or faculty and our industry experts, and then getting them to work together. Because, like I said, it's not Hey, invite a guest lecture in, and they do their talk and leave like, these are things that are co designed, curated together, developed together. And so that's our biggest challenge and opportunity. We've honed in on that craft. Doing that requires real effort. You know, I can't launch a brand new program without having some pretty good lead up time in terms of the work involved in producing it, whether that's an in person or an online program. And then the other thing where, you know, we bring this to life for students, it has some natural limitation, is access to behind the scenes things right? Students who come into a Sotheby's program are visiting the Auction House. They're, you know, they're getting a behind the scenes look at the organization in ways that you know you just, you just can't replicate otherwise. So I think our our biggest opportunities, like everything else, are indeed scale, but we've developed a model that has a lot more scale than an internship model or a co op model, so, but fundamentally, there are still those limitations like I've provided. Julian Alssid: So Kaitlin asked you, we tend to think of this as a dual customer kind of business, right? Your learners, your employers, who are the faculty? Brandon Busteed: So it's any number of folks in various roles within both our partner organizations and folks within the broader like sport industry, for example. So you take the school, The New York Times, probably about half of the faculty in The New York Times are indeed staff members or former staff members from The New York Times. The other half are a combination of folks that have had journalism backgrounds for other organizations, right? Et cetera. So it's a mix of both staff from the organizations we partnered with, and then staff from the industry. But again, underneath that layer, Julian, it's an industry expert, and what we would think of as a teaching or educational expert. So we have general education faculty who are partnering with the subject matter experts to... /episode/index/show/cbaeaf55-54ab-414e-a283-a045b73787c0/id/34746825

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