Amas Talks Podcast

Amas is a modern day prophet and Polymath. He brings a mix of Philosophy, storytelling, technology and humor to make sense of complex topics. You will love his sense of humor and irreverence in every episode.

useful Ideas for AI in contact centers w Jim 08/18/2024

Is it time to retire NPS? w Rob Dwyer 08/07/2024

Fixing the contact center agent experience for good w Brian K 07/31/2024

Fixing the contact center agent experience for good w Brian K In this episode, Amas welcomes Brian back to the show for yet another insightful discussion, jokingly suggesting they need a loyalty punch card for frequent guests. The conversation dives deep into the challenges and solutions in the contact center industry, particularly focusing on improving the employee experience. Brian explains that the key to enhancing this experience is to "get out of the way" and let humans be humans. This approach, called the "Meaningful Work Methodology," emphasizes reducing "grind"—the negative aspects of work caused primarily by management—and fostering meaningful work. The methodology measures the intent to quit and highlights the impact of grind and meaningful work on employee turnover and customer satisfaction. The discussion reveals that reducing employee turnover by 25-50% and increasing customer satisfaction scores by 10-25% are achievable outcomes when this methodology is applied. However, the challenge lies in convincing executives to embrace this change, as they often prioritize cost-cutting and efficiency over employee and customer well-being. The episode also touches on the broader issue of leadership in the contact center industry. Brian and Amas critique the industry's historical focus on cost-cutting and efficiency, often at the expense of genuine human interaction and customer satisfaction. They discuss the influence of the 2010 Harvard Business Review article "Stop Trying to Delight Your Customers," which shifted the industry's focus towards minimizing customer effort and away from creating meaningful, delightful experiences. Brian introduces the "Four Horsemen of Leadership" concept, describing common pitfalls in leadership that hinder meaningful change. These include the Leadership Paradox (prioritizing profitability over people), the Leadership Conundrum (leaders often can't fix problems they've caused), the Leadership Challenge (lack of effective leadership in caring for employees and customers), and the Leadership Lemmings (executives following industry trends without question). In summary, the episode offers a critical look at the contact center industry, highlighting the need for a shift in focus from efficiency and cost-cutting to meaningful work and human interaction. Brian and Amas stress that while the solution is simple, implementing it requires overcoming significant resistance from leadership entrenched in outdated practices. The episode ends on an optimistic note, suggesting that real change is possible if leaders are willing to embrace a more human-centric approach. Resources mentioned: /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/32363642

Call center managers are the source of employee pain w Brian 07/26/2024

Call center managers are the source of employee pain w Brian In this episode, Amas and Brian dive into a compelling discussion about the state of the contact center industry and how it impacts both employees and customers. They reflect on their previous episodes' popularity, emphasizing the resonance of this topic with their audience. Amas expresses gratitude to listeners and encourages feedback via LinkedIn or email. The conversation highlights the persistent challenges faced by contact center agents, likening their experience to a steak restaurant serving A1 sauce – a quick fix for a deeper problem. Brian elaborates on a transformative approach that goes beyond superficial solutions like pizza parties, advocating for addressing the actual grind of the job. Brian explains that company profitability is driven by customer behavior, which is emotionally driven and influenced significantly by human interactions. Therefore, the meaningful work of agents is crucial. The core issue, he argues, is how agents are managed. Traditional punitive management styles contribute to employee dissatisfaction and high turnover rates. Amas and Brian discuss the negative impact of current management practices on profitability and the overall customer experience. They explore a shift in mindset from managing to developing agents, fostering genuine human connections and reducing the grind. Brian shares insights from his research and real-world examples, illustrating how meaningful work methodologies can dramatically improve employee engagement and customer satisfaction. The episode concludes with a call to action for organizations to embrace this human-centric approach, despite the resistance and challenges inherent in changing established practices. Amas and Brian emphasize the potential for revolutionary improvements in the contact center industry by allowing humans to be humans and fostering genuine interactions. Resources: Brian on linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briankearney-meaningfulwork/ Referenced in the episode: https://www.5thtalent.com/_files/ugd/aa75d1_82aa602649214861b72bbb3256ea5a69.pdf /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/32309057

Fixing the grind in contact centers w Brian K 06/25/2024

Fixing the grind in contact centers w Brian K ### Podcast Episode Notes: "Enhancing Contact Center Work" **Host:** Amas **Guest:** Brian **Episode Summary:** In this insightful follow-up episode, Amas reconnects with Brian to delve deeper into the challenges faced by contact center agents and explore the profound impact of meaningful work on employee satisfaction and performance. Listeners are encouraged to listen to the previous episode for context on the ongoing discussion. **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **The Real Problem with Contact Center Jobs:** - Brian argues that the dissatisfaction among contact center agents isn't due to insufficient perks like pizza parties or salaries but rather the nature of the job itself. 2. **Widespread Industry Issues:** - Billions have been invested in improving conditions through career and pay initiatives, yet these efforts have often missed the mark on addressing the core issues. 3. **The Three Types of Meaning in Work:** - **Meaning from Work:** Benefits and compensation that extend outside of work hours. - **Meaning at Work:** The company culture, social events, and mission. - **Meaningful Work:** The intrinsic value and impact of the work performed, which is crucial for reducing turnover and boosting performance. 4. **Misguided Management Focus:** - Management often resorts to quick fixes like increasing budgets for perks rather than addressing deeper systemic issues in job design and corporate culture. 5. **The Power of Meaningful Work:** - Employees derive the most satisfaction from moments where they can significantly impact customers' lives, underscoring the importance of job design that empowers agents. 6. **Grind and Misalignment:** - The term "grind" is used to describe the friction that occurs when company policies and customer needs do not align, placing agents in a challenging position that often leads to dissatisfaction. 7. **Management's Role in Meaningful Work:** - The approach to management is pivotal; shifting focus from process-oriented to people-oriented strategies can enhance both employee satisfaction and customer service. 8. **Future Directions:** - The conversation highlights the need for a paradigm shift in how contact centers are managed, emphasizing the importance of human-centric policies and practices. **Closing Remarks:** - Amas and Brian touch on personal anecdotes, sharing insights into purchases under $50 that have significantly impacted their lives, adding a personal touch to the discussion. **Next Steps:** - The next episode promises to explore actionable strategies ("the how") for creating meaningful work environments in contact centers, aiming to reduce grind and improve both employee and customer satisfaction. **Listener Action Items:** - Check out the previous episode for background on the discussion. - Reflect on the nature of meaningful work within one's own job and consider ways to enhance it. --- **Stay tuned for the next episode where Brian will delve into practical steps for fostering meaningful work in contact centers.** /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/31880527

How the call center agent job got so bad w Brian Kearney 06/11/2024

How the call center agent job got so bad w Brian Kearney ### Podcast Summary: "Amas Talks - How the Call Center Agent Job Got So Bad" #### Introduction - **Host:** Amas - **Guest:** Brian, an industry expert focused on improving the lives of call center agents and managers. #### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Current State of Call Center Jobs:** - Call center jobs have become increasingly difficult and less rewarding. - The guest's report on the industry paints a grim picture, noting poor job satisfaction among agents. 2. **Historical Context:** - Customer service has been evolving since ancient times, with the first recorded complaint dating back to 1750 BC. - The industrial revolution led to the industrialization of various sectors, including customer service, which has negatively impacted the human aspect of the job. 3. **Industrialization of Customer Service:** - The shift towards industrialization has prioritized efficiency, production, and profit over meaningful human interactions. - This has resulted in dehumanized interactions, with agents treated as cogs in a machine rather than individuals providing valuable service. 4. **Impact on Agents and Customers:** - Agents are often forced to choose between adhering to company policies and providing genuine customer service. - This has led to high turnover rates and disengagement among agents, negatively impacting customer experiences. 5. **Customer and Agent Desires:** - Both customers and agents prefer human interactions that feel personal and genuine. - Customers appreciate when agents work collaboratively with them to resolve issues, while agents seek meaningful work where they can truly help customers. 6. **Challenges with Current Solutions:** - Despite advancements in technology and tools, many agents still struggle with inadequate systems and high stress levels. - Efforts to improve agent satisfaction, such as better tools and perks like pizza parties, have not significantly improved job satisfaction or performance. 7. **Future Outlook:** - The guest expresses optimism about the potential for improvement in the industry. - Emphasizes the need for a shift in focus towards enabling agents to be themselves and provide genuine service, which benefits both agents and customers. #### Conclusion: - Amas and Brian discuss the importance of humanizing customer service jobs and look forward to further conversations on how to solve the industry's challenges. - The episode ends with a teaser for future discussions and a call to listeners to like, subscribe, and share the podcast. ### Closing: - **Amas:** Encourages listeners to stay tuned for more insightful discussions on improving customer service and agent experiences. - **Brian:** Expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share his insights and looks forward to continuing the conversation. /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/31706607

Rethinking AI in contact centers w Brian Jeppeson 05/22/2024

Rethinking AI in contact centers w Brian Jeppeson ### Podcast Episode Notes: "Rethinking AI in Contact Centers" **Host:** Amas **Guest:** Brian **Episode Summary:** In this episode, Amas welcomes Brian, a veteran in the contact center industry, to discuss the evolving role of AI, particularly chatbots and voice assistants, in enhancing both customer and agent experiences. They delve into the practical applications and future potential of AI in streamlining operations and improving service delivery. **Key Discussion Points:** 1. **Chatbots as AI Representatives:** - Amas questions the effectiveness of chatbots as representatives of AI advancements, noting their limitations in customer interactions. 2. **Real-World Impact of AI:** - Brian shares a success story where AI significantly reduced call volume pressures by handling routine inquiries, thus allowing human agents to focus on more complex customer needs. 3. **Agent Experience Enhancement:** - Discussion on how AI can relieve agents from mundane tasks, potentially making their jobs more fulfilling by allowing them to handle more engaging and complex issues. 4. **Agent and AI Collaboration:** - Exploration of how AI tools like voice assistants can assist agents in real-time during customer interactions by providing information prompts and automating routine processes. 5. **Challenges and Opportunities with AI:** - Brian addresses common fears about AI replacing human jobs, emphasizing that AI is intended to fill gaps caused by staffing challenges, not replace human workers. 6. **Future of AI in Customer Service:** - Discussion on the potential of AI to not only respond to customer needs but also proactively complete tasks, enhancing efficiency and customer satisfaction. 7. **Impactful Purchases Under $50:** - Both hosts share personal anecdotes about small purchases that had a significant impact on their lives, providing a lighter, personal touch to the conversation. **Closing Thoughts:** - The episode concludes with a positive outlook on the transformative changes AI can bring to customer service, improving both the efficiency of operations and the quality of customer interactions. **Action Items for Listeners:** - Consider how AI can be integrated into your business processes to enhance efficiency and customer satisfaction. - Reflect on how technology can be used responsibly to augment human work without replacing it. --- **Tune in to learn more about leveraging AI in customer service and the evolving role of technology in enhancing business operations.** /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/31880622

Government agencies can teach us about customer experience w Stephanie Thum Ph.D. 04/02/2024

Unleashing the limitless potential of A.I. w Carrie Steyer 03/10/2024

The exciting, scary future of customer service? W Lucas Anderson 03/03/2024

Eternal truths in contact center networking w David Hadobas 02/26/2024

The future of Telephony w Steve Infante 02/18/2024

Can we fix Customer Experience? W/Michelle Martinez 12/29/2023

Can we fix Customer Experience? W/Michelle Martinez Amas So, Michelle, we both work in the same area around keeping customers happy. And I was reading an article that talked about the ACSI rating, the American Customer Satisfaction index rating, and something happened. From 2006 on, we were on a steady rise. And in 2018, it starts to plummet. And I don't think anyone needs data to tell them that customer experience is getting worse. I, for one, when I buy something, somebody lies to me and tells me they need my email address so that they can send me a receipt. And then next thing you know, I'm getting emails that I didn't ask for. And then when something breaks, God forbid, I call the 1800 number, and it tells me my call is very important to me and somebody will be with me shortly. That's another lie. And then I get to the human. Michelle Wait, alas, just to be clear, that's a difference of definition, right? Shortly, in your mind? In my mind, maybe like one to two minutes, but in their spectrum of like ten years, an hour, maybe it's. Amas Our definition of time. And then I get a human, Michelle, and something happens, and they promise me a callback that also happens to be a lie. And then at the end of all of this, I get a survey that says my feedback is very valuable. And again, that, too is a lie. And I could go on. While that is going on, every single company on earth has the word customer experience somewhere on their website or on something, right? It's like, oh, my gosh. And then we have apologies to my colleagues. So many customer experience gurus on LinkedIn writing thought pieces about customer centricity, and yet I can't get checkout lanes everywhere I go. And let me now get back to the data. Remember those ACSI ratings I said was going up until 2018? We have erased all of the gains. We are now lower than where we were in 2006. And so, you know me, I am a little bit dramatic. I am ready to declare the whole customer experience practice a failure. Let's pack our bags and go home. What says you? Michelle At least you didn't call it a sham, right? That could be the other way to go. So, look, I think, and I'm always the, like, let me find the gray in between. So I'm going to go with the yes and no. So I think there are elements of it that have been successful in that. Yeah, companies are talking about customer experience, and there is, overall, a greater recognition of the fact that customer experience and well designed customer experiences can actually enhance your bottom line and can be ultimately revenue drivers. They can be that organic growth engine of your organization. So I think there have been some wins in that way and kind of a little bit of some of that quantification of the value where I think CX has fallen down and then I'll get into what I think has maybe happened over the last couple of years. But where CX has fallen down, I think is some of the practitioners, and again, not against any of those that are out there and people that I know, but I think we got a little too enamored with the idea of great customer experiences and we didn't really hone in on what is the practical business value of enhancing the customer experience. And how can I actually translate that back into business terms. So yes, it's the right thing to do and that's a good story to tell, but if you don't come back with the financial value of that right thing to do, you're not going to get buy in in the long term for continuing to be able to do that. So I think where the practice has failed is pulling in that financial kind of not just justification but value addition that has come from CX. So that's where I think there's been kind of failure from the practitioner side of the house. Now what I think has happened kind of more largely is you've definitely got a concentration of businesses and you see that across the board, right? Who's in the top ten of the businesses, their size of market share. So therefore, since there is less competition in the marketplace, you don't actually have to differentiate yourself with better customer experience, you can kind of screw customers over and. Sorry, where are they going to go? Choice. Right? Where are you going to go? And there have been some changes, right? Like the ability to port your cell phone number from one provider to another has certainly made movement of cell phone providers a little bit easier. But in aggregate they still put a lot of challenge in that process so that it's not really easy. And so that's why I think you've seen that type of a dramatic drop from 2006 to where we are today is that concentration of business. Amas I want to go back to that point you made about value, Michelle, before there was customer experience, and I would love to hear how you got into this then. I was a service guy and there was no department I had envy of more than. Remember I had a vp counterpart over marketing. And we would be in these meetings and they would say things like, you know, half of the money we spend on marketing is wasted, but we can't tell you which half. And everyone would laugh and the CFO would write another check. And when I compare that to me, a service guy and to some extent a customer experience deal, even before that was a thing, I had to justify every penny. And I think I hadn't connected it till just now because a lot of cxos are cmos that I wonder if it's that laziness from marketing. Apologies to our marketing brethren of kind of like, what else are you going to do? You're going to write me a check to do marketing regardless of the value? Maybe we took on some of that and gotten into this more ethereal. It's good for the customer, it's good for the world, versus really trying to make a discipline out of it. Michelle Yeah, that might be a component of it. I would also say, certainly from my personal experience, I felt like there was almost a backlash. And I know myself and others have reacted to that backlash, which is customer service sitting within operations and customer service being a component of customer experience. Right. I do not want to confound those two terms. I'm really passionate about the fact that customer experience is overarching. Customer service is a component of it. But when you had customer service pulled out and it existed within operations, it was very much viewed as a cost to the organization. And how could you essentially optimize that cost and how could you minimize the amount of that cost? And when you have that lens on it and you constantly get the push of shorter average handle time, like lower resolution cost, whatever it may be, not necessarily to the benefit of the customer, but exclusively for the benefit of the business, I think then you get some backlash that says, look, we got to move away from that model. We have to go back to this kind of more marketing type of model where we're thinking about kind of the brand promise and what are we delivering to our customers and that value. So I do think there's some of that that's been at play. And I've certainly seen, like I said, I've lived living in that coo world and having been pushed on that operations side of the house in terms of why people might lean more towards the throw money at. We'll see what sticks and what doesn't stick. Amas Yeah, I want to be balanced here and acknowledge one thing you said, which is the progress we've gotten from focusing on CX. Perhaps you can tell I don't remember CX roles when I started. Right. And I haven't sat in that chair. I've spent most of my career in decidedly service, supply chain, those kinds of talk a little bit about the journey. I'm quick to throw the baby with the bathwater, but we have come a long way. Talk about from your experience, how did we even get to the point where CX is this ubiquitous thing everyone talks about? Michelle Yeah. So I don't know that I know exactly how I got there. I can certainly tell you. Similar to you, I grew up in marketing. A little bit of business development, a little bit of sales, but mostly marketing. And to me, what became so apparent was if you sold the living daylights out of a product, right. But then you couldn't deliver on what you were selling. That lack of kind of communication continuity was the downfall of a company, right. You can't oversell and then under deliver. It just won't work. So you have to have the pre and the post sale talking to one another. After I operated in marketing for a while, I was a general manager of a business unit, and there I owned the customer, the entire lifecycle of the customer. And that's the first time that I really came to realize the value of really understanding that entire customer lifecycle and how important that retention component was. Customer lifetime value. How do you calculate that? How do you bring that? Now, it was a subscription based model, so it was significantly easier than, as an example, Wayfair, where I worked, where it's not a subscription based model, it's much harder to figure that out, but able to do that. And so I don't know exactly the moment in time where customer experience became like the thing in an organization. I would also say, I still feel like today people are struggling with what that actually means. I think in a lot of organizations, they say customer experience, but what they really mean is customer service. And they're just giving it a new nomenclature, right. Very similar to how I see people. Yeah, go ahead. Amas No, you're right. That's part of the confusion in the marketplace, right. Is that I think lots of service individuals, myself included, started to think, well, the CX thing, right, it's this broad, thin. Maybe we'll now get funding, maybe we'll not be thought about as a cost center anymore. But you're right, the discipline around CX is different. And there's service elements in the customer experience for sure, but it certainly is different. If you're just joining, I have got my good friend Michelle on. We are talking about customer experience and a bunch of other topics. You'll get to know her. We'll put her LinkedIn information in the show notes. Let's get to know you a little bit. I ask my guests these questions and the one I'm going to ask you is tell me about a purchase under $50 that changed your life. I'm a dramatic person. For the better, for the worse. What is yours? Michelle So I'm guessing most people give you the for the better, and I'm going to give you the for the worse. But it dramatically changed my life. We've talked about this, so I have it here, at least the component elements of it, which is this used to be a dog leash. And my daughter was taking my dog out for a walk and he was on our property. Another dog, our neighborhood dog, was on the road, started barking at our dog. She held onto the leash, no problem. And all of a sudden, the leash broke. The nylon of the leash broke. My dog felt loose. He had been agitated because he was antagonized and he did some damage to the other dog. He bit the other dog and ripped open kind of his front paw to the tune of about $2,000 in a vet bill, which, of course, I was obligated to pay for because it was my dog that did the damage. And so that's life changing. What was on top of that life changing was the absolutely abysmal customer service that I got. I went back to the manufacturer and I contacted them and I said, hey, look, this is what happened. I'm not a litigious person. I'm just hoping that you can kind of compensate me for the vet bill that I pay. Amas Vet Bill? Yeah. Michelle And the response back that I got from the company was, I'm so sorry, we can't pay for the vet bill, but we'll give you a $15 refund on the leash. And here's a 10% off coupon for future purchases. Amas Come get some more. Michelle Go get some more of the thing that broke where your trust is fundamentally gone. Right. The core function of the thing that I bought was not delivered upon in any way, shape or form. Go buy more. And I responded back, rather, I think, nicely, and said, look, I work in customer experience, and let me just tell you, this is not the way to go down the road, because you just pissed me off even more by the buy. And now I'm going to go otherwise. And now I'm going to write a really crappy review on Amazon for your product. And now I'm going to also inform Amazon of the fact that your product broke and they shouldn't be selling it because, oh, that's a liability. And so they stuck to their guns. And I even kind of pointed out to them that, look, the value of you, having spent $2,000 on fixing this for me, would have been tremendous. I would have been more than happy to then go on the website and say, hey, look, this happened. But the company was really gracious about it, and that could have gone a really long way for other customers, too, and for that company, but they chose not to. And so now it's going to cost them a heck of a lot more, a lot more time in order to deal with the situation. So that was my under $50 life changing purchase. Amas There is so much there. And I want to respond with, you have one job, if it's a leash. And by the way, until you told me the story, it has never occurred to me that this could be a thing. Right. And back to what we're talking about, about the entire experience is, I think this is why, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it right in. Michelle That. Amas It touches everything. Michelle Right. Amas You had a purchase experience. Service is what tends to expose your experience. Like, the service is kind of what calls your attention to it. But for that to have been a positive response, we've got to go back to operations, manufacturing, give them that feedback, because it's not just about making you this one customer, even just throwing money at it and making you whole. It's about then, right. Let's make sure this thing doesn't happen again. Because if you go on and even give them a good review, that, hey, they made it right, and they did the right thing. If it happens again and again, your one review is not even your one positive review. Had they done that, would not have helped them. And I think it's so symptomatic about how there's service experience, which would have been, oh, we apologize. But if you're thinking about the whole thing, it gets a whole lot more complicated. Michelle And that organizations really aren't organizationally structured in order to enable all of that kind of connective tissue to exist, right? Because it should be this kind of service feedback goes back to the product team, like you said, goes back to the supply, goes back to the manufacturing piece. So they have that feedback and they can now make changes. But it sits, and I think very often, and I know we're focusing a lot on service, but I think very often service sits isolated from the rest of the organization. And as an afterthought, it's like, oh, we should probably have a customer service department versus thinking about, how am I going to really intentionally design my experience and then use service as a core and fundamental element of the delivery of that experience as well as a core and important element of my feedback loop. Yeah. Amas And speaking of feedback, I want to focus on that for a second because most of the barometer of how good CX is going, for better or for worse, tends to be around this feedback thing. And by and large it is some variation of survey through some channel and customers say some stuff and then it gets quantified and next thing you know, voila, we are great. Because NPS, whatever thing you're using, say you are good. What I did not share with you earlier is those scores are going okay. Michelle Yeah. Amas Listen, I don't like to tell people I am in this business because they start telling me are you responsible for this? Right. So what gives? What is going on with surveys and it kind of lying to us what's happening there? Michelle Okay. I have so many thoughts you're going to have to shut me up because I get really excited about this topic, as weird as that sounds. So I absolutely think the problem is we're measuring the wrong stuff. So if you think about CX again kind of more holistically from a business perspective, whether or not a customer is satisfied, neither here nor there. Worthix did actually a really great presentation on this and they showed how, I think it was BlackBerry, how BlackBerry had phenomenal csatin ratings. They went out of business and they collapsed and it was still their customers that they had that were giving them five star and ten point ratings. So it's not a valuable tool in order to assess whether or not your business is successful, which is ultimately the purpose of customer experience is to really drive and deliver on the business. So you're not measuring the right thing. So that's one I think the second is I get again, really passionate about this NPS thing. So NPS is really a relationship management. Calling it a metric, I think is something that is too far away from me, but tool, I guess. And I don't think it works particularly well because most people abuse how they leverage nps. They're trying to understand whether or not a customer is going to purchase a product again. Right. So they're using that as their way to be able to predict if they're going to purchase a product again. We have data now and we have mechanisms to be able to understand if people are actually going back and purchasing product and telling their friends about it. So use your operational data, don't ask the question. Because, and this is my feeling about surveying in general, I think kind of the solicited structured feedback like that is not particularly valuable. It's like me walking into a party. And I ask all the people in the party, what do you think of my outfit? Who's going to tell me, Michelle, that thing looks hideous on you, right? Not a soul. I walk out of the room, they're all going to be, oh, my God. Did you see oh, my God way too? No, that's the unsolicited feedback when I walk out of the room, the solicited feedback is what I get when I'm in the room. And so when we ask these survey questions, we're getting those responses. It's not the truth. To get to the truth, you have to listen to things like what's happening in social media, what's actually happening in my phone conversations, what's happening in my chat experience, right. Customers are telling you there, if they're pissed and what they're pissed about, you have to be able to extract that. And that's the true information that you need, not just for customer experience, but for business in general. Right. That's going to help you understand, am I actually delivering what my company needs for growth? Because I've got this type of input now from these unsolicited, unstructured sources of data. Amas That is so on the money. And I think it occurs to me, and I've heard you say this on multiple occasions, but I think it'll be good for you to articulate. I think this term customer experience has gotten so ubiquitous, and it's been slapped on so many things, if you think about it as a discipline, right? Someone's just listening and just sort of going like, what is this thing as a discipline? How do you explain that to organizations or people who are still just trying to wrap their arms around it and want to do it, right? Michelle Yeah. So to me, the true essence of it is how do you want your customers to feel in every interaction with you? So what do you want them to have that emotional takeaway be in every interaction with you? And that's whether it's chat, whether it's sales, whether it's marketing acquisition, whether it's service delivery, all of those touch points. And there are so many layers of the things that impact that emotional response that you have, whether it's pricing, whether it's language, whether it's creative, whether it's the actual mechanism of delivery. Those are all components of what create that customer experience. So I view customer experience, ownership as... /episode/index/show/cc924e55-4f80-42bf-8bc9-5927b18221d3/id/29267313