The Third Boat

What happens inside the boathouse? What happens when someone new wants in? Stories of conflict, hazing, winning and loss.

S2: 1 The Pits, Part 1. Showdown at Stan Sayres Park. 12/05/2025

Season 2 Update: 1.5 years later. A protest at Leander Boat Club, Henley on Thames, England. Also, The King's Trust awards. 06/23/2025

9: Oxford Brookes: A Sporting Miracle? A conversation with Peter Smith 01/28/2025

8: Welcome to the Red Zone 10/28/2024

8: Welcome to the Red Zone This is a public service announcement for the Red Zone, the dangerous time period on University campuses. Because I am a Gen X Seattlite, I include music references: The Gits, the Home Alive movement and Pearl Jam. Note- This was recorded prior to the US Election. - Jen Content Warning: This episode mentions a death by suicide, a death by murder, as well as sexual assault. JRN Staff, Junior Rowing News. September 23, 2024 Sexual Abuse in Sport: An open letter to the rowing community Welcome to the Red Zone. US Resources: If you have thoughts of suicide or need to talk to, please call or text 988 in the US. This number was activated in 2022. https://988lifeline.org/ For victims of sexual violence, contact: https://rainn.org/ or call 800-656-HOPE (4673) British resources: Safeline – https://safeline.org.uk/ The Survivors trust – https://thesurvivorstrust.org/ Women’s Aid – https://www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-directory/ British Rowing - Safeguarding and Protecting Adults Policy, March 2020: https://www.britishrowing.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Safeguarding-Adults-at-Risk-March-2020.pdf Trigger Warning: This one's a downer. It mentions a suicide, and the existence of sexual assault. And I'm going to call Fraternity's frats. You gotta problem with that? Get your own podcast. So this episode is more along the lines of a public service announcement. It's fall, and we're in the red zone. If your kids are off to college, can you check the Sams law Stats on the website of your son's new frat, or assume your daughter is safe in her new boat club in London. Mmmmm I'm not sure it's that simple. Welcome to the red zone. What goes on behind those creaky old boathouse doors? Who's invited and who's safe? Who thrives and why do some leave? And why do rowers do some of the wierd things they do? Let's talk about rowing culture. And this time, let's do it from the perspective of... the third boat. I'm Jen Butler. This is the third boat podcast. Happy Fall everyone. Here in Seattle, the leaves are falling. The rowers are trying to remember where they stored their winter rowing tights. Theta Chi at University of Washington is back up again. This is the frat Joel McHale briefly joined 30 years ago. The Interfraternity Council (the IFC) suspended them for four years when it was determined they had retaliated related to a Title IX case. I had to park next to the house a few times this summer and it was quite a busy renovation but the building and the grounds looks lovely. In addition to their lovely new landscaping, they have a new facebook page. On their facebook page they say 0 Sams Law violations last 5 years. Holy Disengenous metrics Fratman. That Frat was shut down for 4 years for Title IX retaliation. And Sams Law was just signed into law 2 years ago. Theta Chi's other chapter at Washington State University is currently suspended. Luke Tyler, a freshman rushing that frat , died by suicide last year after hazing. Oh I should note that Theta Chi is different from Theta Xi. I had to double check as well, because if you attended the UW in the 90's you probably remember the sheep incident. During Hell Week in 1990 fraternity pledges were found in their skivvies covered in peanut butter with quote "overheated and agitated" sheep. The UW IFC had adopted an anti-hazing policy the year prior after members of Delta Upsilon killed a chicken by dropping it off a balcony in Kane Hall. And now.... The Red Zone. Hey everybody, welcome to the red zone. In american football, the red zone is the distance between the 20 yard line and the goal line. It's where you're more likely to score. And.... in the rest of the college, the red zone denotes the time when you are most likely to hurt someone, or get hurt. This is when hazings happen, and 50% of sexual assault. Freshman are at most risk. Most attacks happen between 12-6 on Saturday or Sunday Morning. Every year. The red zone runs till Thanksgiving in the US, end of term in the UK. So on campuses there is red zone or now green dot training and awareness. Sometimes there are custom made programs. Sometimes they look serious, sometimes they look like they are to minimize liability. There are often workshops, which everyone participates in. Here's what I feel we don't say.... but everyone already right and wrong. Everyone already knows about consent. They know, it can be given, and it can be changed. We already knew that hazing was bad, and women have a right to safety in universities. I thought we all had these discussions a long time ago. And yes, I realize how naive that sounds.. I don't really understand how workshops can help but i'm willing to learn. When I was at University there were take back the night rallies. In Seattle the Home Alive movement began after Mia Zapata of the gits was raped and murdered after leaving her job at the Comet Tavern in Capitol Hill. Women in bands worked together to try to keep each other safe in their unique amazing music world of bars, nightclubs late nights and dark streets. You may have heard some of the music that came from that movement. Seven Year Bitches Album, Viva Zapata is in honor of Mia. If you were at the Ohana Festival in September you would have heard Eddie Vedder's cover of Eddy Holland's Motown hit Leaving Hear. This song was from a cd compilation made to support the Home Alive Cause in 1996. As a side note, the music industry in Seattle from 1990 to 1997 is fascinating. I would happily talk over a beer comparing Home Alive to some similar efforts in rowing clubs. It would have to be at the Comet, Mia's bar. At university in the states, there is a Title IX office on all campuses that manages policies, and guidance and establishes process in the sad event someone is hurt by sexual violence. Based on my research, it appears the processes aren't always clear and consistent between universities. And I'm somewhat baffled by the protocols in British Universities and Boat clubs. The most current pulse point I see is an open letter on the Junior Rowing News site: Sexual Abuse in sport, an open letter to the rowing community. We will visit Britain later, however I think it's worth noting this open letter that came out last month. I think it's worth a read - not just for the open letter, but for the accompanying survey responses. The Author refers to an Instagram poll from the account Henley Love. Respondents were asked “Do you think enough is being done to protect women in rowing from abuse?” Of the 1045 people who chose to respond, (76%) of the poll said no. Participants could choose to answer the following quesion - “What can clubs and athletes do to help women?” Out of the 85 responses, 15 indicated clubs should refuse to admit people that were known offenders, and that clubs should kick out offenders. "Not letting rapists row for them would be a cracking start" At least 10 out of the 85 indicated that performance should not take priority over safety. "Stop prioritising rowing ability over behaviour. A sub 6 2k doesn’t excuse being a creep." I attended the US SafeSport training for volunteers this summer. I learned a lot more than I thought I would. And now I find the article and in particular some of the associated poll comments alarming. If your daughter is rowing in Britain - how do you know for sure she will be safe? /episode/index/show/f0a98b2b-6285-412e-a157-327319ea6be3/id/33646797

7: Joel McHale Interview Part 2: Rowmerta and the Dawgfather 08/28/2024

6: Joel McHale Interview Part 1. Joel pokes The Bear: Why Husky Football Culture is better than Husky Rowing Culture. 07/13/2024

6: Joel McHale Interview Part 1. Joel pokes The Bear: Why Husky Football Culture is better than Husky Rowing Culture. Joel McHale has been poking the bear for years.... If you consider UW Rowing, The Bear. Joel rowed at the University of Washington for three months in the early 90s. I've noticed his little "pokes" in local news articles and guest commentary during football games. My experience was very different from Joels. I loved rowing at the U. But I was curious. So Joel and I talked, a lot longer than we planned to. In part 1 of this episode, Joel explains why football culture is better than rowing culture. University of Washington Hazing Compliance Report: https://www.washington.edu/hazingprevention/hazing-prevention/compliance-report/ Sam's Law: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/new-law-inspired-by-wsu-students-death-stiffens-penalties-for-hazing/ Music: Gone Surfing, by Sixteen Wheelers (Epidemic) Pardon My Gun, by Roy Edwin Williams (Epidemic) The Fight, by Amos Noah (Epidemic) Transcript: Jen If you have teens or college kids in sports, this is a good one to play in the car. My kids and I talked a lot after this one. Of course, maybe they paid attention more because they think our guest is so much cooler than I am. At the same time, you've been warned there is a ton of swearing. It's your call Joel Oh, we were all we're doing we have a target and that target is the USC Trojan and we are we will be we will eat and drink their blood if we need to win. And that's where I learned how to really work really go oh, I can this is how this is how you get shit done. He was he basically was like, Yeah, I can't we gotta get the hazing really is. He's like the hazing is really fallen off. I gotta go there and you know, step it up. And I was what? Oh, whoa. I was like, Oh, so you're an infected Dick as well? Jen: What goes on behind those creaky old boathouse doors? Who's invited and who feels comfortable? Who's safe and who thrives? Who stays and why do some leave? And why do rowers do some of the weird things they do? Let's talk about rowing culture. And this time, let's do it from the perspective of the third boat. I'm Jen Butler. This is the Third Boat Podcast. Jen: Today we're going to talk about the old college, gridiron and toss some pigskin. Okay, I really know next to nothing about football. Except that of course in America football is a religion. It's really big deal. And today we get to hear Joel McHale talk about his experiences going from rowing to football. Jen: You may have seen Joel in the show Community, which now has a cult following amongst teenagers. He is also in the bear playing a total jerk of a chef. I did not see Joel in The Bear before recording this. If I had I don't know if I could have gone through the interview. He is terrifying in that show. If you've seen Joel in the Bear as the Asshole Chef, you will understand. I am so glad I hadn't seen it before. And kind of an awkward segue. Joel McHale has been publicly poking the bear for years. The bear in this case is U DUB rowing. I was at the U when Joel was and our time with the boathouse overlapped by three months. I thought hey, okay, Joel I'll bite. I don't think the bear he wants to provoke, but I was curious. But first, I have a little update for you. While I was prepping for this interview, I noticed that both the U DUB men's and the YouTube women's rowing teams were listed on a hazing compliance report for hazing freshmen last fall and a little background if you're not from Washington State. About five years ago, Sam Martinez, a young man of Washington State University died due to an alcohol hazing incident. Sam's parents channeled their grief into advocacy, which led to Sam's law, which is now in effect. This law puts more responsibility on the university's preventing and reporting of hazing. There are also increased legal penalties. For example, substantial bodily harm caused by hazing is now a felony. You could be in jail for up to five years. As part of this law, Washington universities are required to post their hazing compliance report publicly. And I don't know the details of these hazing incidents in particular, but I've included a link to the university's hazing compliance report so you can read it yourself. The men's and women's rowing teams are the only sports teams on this list. The others are fraternities with one sorority back in 2019. As part of remediation, the men's and women's team will have to develop an action plan for changing the current team culture. Good luck kids. Joel: This is exciting. Wait, did you row? Jen: I did. I did. So when you were a freshman, I was in my second year of rowing. Okay, so I was, you know, an experienced I think it would novice than rookie. So that would have been my first varsity Boat Club year. And you would have been a little novice. A baby. Joel: That yes, yes, I didn't last long. Jen: How long did you last? Joel: three months? Jen: Oh, that's longer than I thought. Joel: it was three. Yeah. Starting the summer. And I didn't Yeah, so it was I really Yeah, we you start. You go ahead, Jen. Okay. You're we probably know the same people. Jen: We probably do. Yeah. Joel: Oh, what high school do you go to? Jen: Nathan Hale. Joel: All right. Jen: Nathan Hale in North Seattle. Joel: What was your Rowing Club? Jen: So I did not row in high school. Joel: Oh, so you showed up and said here we go. Jen: Yeah. Well, a friend of talked me into it. And she kept bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. And I'm like eh. Because I was tall. And then I showed up and kind of fell in love. Joel You obviously were athletic. And then they got you to come on over and they went, Oh, yeah, this would be very helpful if you're on. Jen: Actually no, no, it really wasn't like that. I golfed in high school. Oh, and so I was one of the walk ons that like, they were more likely to say, you know, there are other sports. Joel: I mean, I remember at Mercer Island, they couldn't, they could not get anybody to be on the golf team. And it was a joke when I was in high school. And now, like, 200 people try out and I was like, things change. And oh, wow. Look, the world loves pickleball now and I couldn't couldn't looked at me really weird when they were like, is that a dish you eat? No. Jen: Right, right. No, I was on the golf team. And it was because a coach said to me, Wow, you sure look like a golfer? And then I was like, Oh, okay. But you know, he just wanted his side gig being a coach of golf team. So he had to get golfers. So yeah, I ate it up. And you know, I mean, there's worse things than walking around with your buddies in the rain. Joel: Yeah, in the northwest. At that time of the year. I was always shocked when I moved to Southern California 24 years ago. And they I was like, wait, they close the golf courses when it rains? What the hell? What they don't and Seattle? I'm like, No, you'd be closed half the year. Jen: Yeah. Why would you do that? Joel: So all right. So I will, I'll let you get to the real questions. I'll stop. Jen: Yeah let's get to the real question. So as part of some of the rowing stories I've kind of come across recently, I'm starting to be really fascinated about kind of group behavior. And what happens sometimes you can get in hot water within sports, and you don't quite realize it. You had an experience at the U DUB when you started rowing. And I thought that was really interesting. I've heard you mention it a few times. Can you speak to that? Joel: Yes, I'd love to. It's super fun. Ya know, I loved rowing. And it was something that I could do, I was pretty good at it and got to the U DUB and you know, like, asked if I would come onto the team. Because at that point, I don't think there was any, I don't think there were scholarships for rowing. But you know, you could get housing paid for partially in meals and stuff. There was some sort of deal. So I moved in to the rowing club, and I don't even know you could answer this. Is it still there? Jen: It still is. It's beautiful. You know, the rowers no longer live there. It's like a kind of you can get event space and offices, but the shell house is the same down below. Joel: Yeah well, at that point, everyone lives with each other. And, boy, I also joined a fraternity and I didn't think that those guys would be more mature. That is what I like to call opening shot, Jen. I got there and it was just this really, it was just really stupid. To put it to put it in a mild way. Like everyone's really good at what they were doing, I've been asked about it a ton of times. And then everyone always asks me about football because obviously football is a more popular sport. Which don't tell the rowers that. Their hierarchy and their hazing was just so it was every aspect. Every every part of it...... was some sort of you're not doing for the seniors like their chairs and the tiles on the ground that you couldn't walk on and all their tiny little stupid rules that however that evolved was out of insecurity and stupidity and I don't know I kind of thought well maybe because the sport isn't very popular they have to make themselves feel important by belittling the the less powerful freshmen or sophomores and they add the whole hair pillow thing. Remember I mentioned.... Do they still do that? Jen: Oh, I don't know about that. I think at least as of a few years back I did see they're still shaving their heads. So I don't know where they put it. But I do remember the cabinet. Joel: Yeah, the very creepy serial killer cabinet. There was for those of you who ever who hear this like that you'd shave your eyebrows and shave your head and if you made a certain boat and you would put that hair into a pillow and then went into the display case like John Wayne Gacy, so here and what so then I, you know, to this day, like I complained to the coach, and he did nothing. That was Bob Ernst. Then so this guy named Jason Riney was a fellow freshman he made my friend Suzanne. Still married. Jen: Oh, nice. He's at Microsoft, I think he's a lawyer there. We didn't push our chair in or looked at the seniors wrong or did something disrespectful in their little kingdom rules, and they surrounded us and hit us. So that's when I like, complained. I remember calling my parents and they're like, What the hell's going on there? I'm like, I don't know, these guys are assholes. So I'm at that point, why I remember because like three weeks before, when I had moved in, all my stuff was there. But then a senior decided he wanted my bed. And so he just put all my stuff in the hallway, which was not great. Then I complained to the coach. And then there was like a speech given by the guy who hit us that there's certain rules and Bob Ernst did nothing. And it was I even like, this is the 90's so lots lots of bad behavior. There's always bad behavior, but none of it was ever seen. I kind of called that out but no one cared. And you know, I don't know the fraternity hazing was also at the time bad but this was just, just..... I don't know what I guess. So my, my experience was bad. My theory was that the, again that the sport was not that popular, so they come up with their own important things to do like that to make themselves feel important. As opposed to when I joined the football team. Like it's funny because the assumptions about rowing is that it's a you're tall white guy who is good in school, which there was a lot of white guys. But in football, you get this meathead mentality that everyone believes but I've never seen what football there was. The biggest hazing was there was a skit night and you had to sing a song at dinner. That was all very reasonable and team building and they wanted to fucking win. And yeah, and I know that that that has all sorts of other baggage on it as well. But they we were like I got on there. And I'm like, Oh, the culture is so different. Because we they just we're here to win this thing. And, and if you're good enough to do it. Like there's a guy named John Fiala who walked on the team and became a starter and eventually became captain of the fucking Pittsburgh Steelers. Who is so so that was the big that was a real difference. Also, it was because it was Don James who obviously was in the pantheon of very great, amazing college football coaches. So um, but the, you know, like being out of like, the water, the camaraderie, the team like the the execution of being a good rower on a team of eight or a team of four is there's it's beautiful and so fun. Like when I got to college, I was like who are these people? And what is their problem? And I was like, why? And then I remember just a couple of years laters I was well, I guess was like a year later was walking down to football practice. And at this point I had put on, it was funny seeing the rowers because I put on like 40 pounds when I was playing football, and then I would see them around the seat up because we eat sometimes down where they were eating, and I would just give them they would give me looks, and I would give them looks. Jen: Oh my goodness. Joel: Yeah. And but I remember this guy, this freshman I knew was here. I was chatting with him as we were walking at this fret he was so we were sophomores at that point. And we were both walking. He was walking to rowing practice. I was walking to football. And he basically was like, Yeah, the hazing really is... he's like the hazing is really fallen off. I gotta go there. And you know, step it up. Jen: Oh my gosh Joel: What? Oh, oh, I was like, Oh, so you're an infected dick as well. So that was sad. So that's, that's my shitty. That was not fun. As you can tell, that was my shitty experience. And that was it was last time I rowed. And I've, we have a place up in Seattle and on Vashon. And I want to get one of those ocean shells to go out Jen: Oh, yeah, I have one of those. They're fun. Joel: Yeah, I would love to do that. And but anyway, that's my very long answer and experience and you know, like when you have those.... you try to let those childhood things go and we were young, but if I ever see those guys, I'm gonna punch him in the face. No, no, no, I'm kidding. But it's funny. That's that shit that you remember? Like, oh, if I ever see him, I will not I will not hold back on my verbal chastising. That's why I always call them out. And I hope they troll me. Jen: Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Has anybody ever called you and said like, I'm sorry, I was such a dick. Oh, Joel: Oh, no, no, nothing. But if I, I've had like, rowers come up to me and say, not confront but like at different U DUB things with like I've seen with the city or like, and they they heard that I was on the team or something. And they, but they'll be like, they were well, no one's actually confronted me but more like I heard you on the rowing team. I'm like, yeah, it was a terrible experience. Because this guy's love their hazing. And you could I could tell that they've either been through some of it, or they resented it. And there was some trolling on Twitter for a while, which I was like, What a sad troll. What are those like? So the privileged university student who's on the fucking rowing to this? Yeah, pick your this is your beef. Go, go. Good you've won. You have no problem. Way to go. Jen: Yeah, well, I have to tell you part of the reason well, pretty much the whole reason I started this podcast, it's because I actually witnessed I witnessed an apology Joel: Oh! Jen: And this, this is where this is where it gets complicated. Next time on the Third Boat: Jen: The consequences of that over there are not that you get expelled from school, it's more like someone's knighthood might be threatened you know, so like Sir Twinkle-Bottom OBE or whatever, he doesn't want his alma mater to...... Joel: As we all know, Sir Twinkle-Bottom was particularly egregious. Speaker 1 This is the third boat podcast. Thank you for listening. /episode/index/show/f0a98b2b-6285-412e-a157-327319ea6be3/id/32119212

5: Scuttlebutt: Andrew Bagley Interview Part 2 05/17/2024

4: The Cocoon: Andrew Bagley Interview Part 1. 05/01/2024

3: Rowing 101 Money and Danger 02/19/2024

1: When George Clooney came to town 02/18/2024

2: Ethics and Content Warning 02/19/2024

Trailer: The Hair Pillow 02/15/2024

The Third Boat

TOPICS