Your Best Defense Podcast

Your Best Defense Podcast is hosted by Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Attorney Jacquelyn Ford. Your best defense is a good offense. Jacqui Ford, not afraid of a fight and always fighting for what is right! Find out more at fordlawokc.com or call 405-604-3200.

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Experienced Oklahoma City Federal Criminal Defense Attorneys with Jack Dempsey Pointer 11/09/2015

Experienced Oklahoma City Federal Criminal Defense Attorneys with Jack Dempsey Pointer JDP: And always remember this. In this country, the US Supreme Court has said a man’s home is his castle; you cannot get into that castle without a search warrant. JF: Now, come on, Jack. If you’re not guilty and you didn’t do anything wrong, only a guilty person wouldn’t let them in and only a guilty person would ask for a lawyer. JDP: That’s why we have to be very careful in the selection of our jurors, Ms. Ford. Because we don’t want to have a juror on our panel that thinks like that, because in this country, our constitution says you are presumed innocent until found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of your peers. JF: So it matters not what the agent at the door says or thinks or threatens; you should exercise those rights so that you can best protect yourself. JDP: That’s correct. If you let that agent cross that threshold, he could go anywhere in that house he wants to go. It’s a little tough to revoke your permission for him to go in when he’s got a badge and a gun. And he just kind of wanders around and looks in all of your stuff, and you think, “Well, he can’t do that.” But yeah, he can. You let him in. Don’t let him cross that threshold. You come outside and talk to him. They’re looking for evidence. And why are they talking to you? They want you to confess or tell them somebody is doing another crime or something like that. They’re very adept at their jobs. JF: And they’re nice guys; they’re not mean guys. JDP: Oh, they’ve got kids and dogs and houses and lawns and lawnmowers and a whole routine. They’re all nice guys. Some of these guys are my best friends. But if he thought I was doing something, if he sat down to have a conversation with me, then you always have to say, “Is this conversation for the record?” JF: It’s always for the record with the feds, right Jack? JDP: That’s exactly right. And it’s always for the record when you talk to a police officer. “Officer, I only had one beer,” and the officer says, “Yes, I can smell not very heavy alcohol on your breath. By the way, do you take those oxycontin for pain?” “I certainly do; my back is killing me.” “When’s the last time you had an oxycontin?” “I’ve had four today.” “Sir, you’re under the influence of drugs.” Be careful. They’re your friends until… Okay, now, if I have a problem and I need someone who makes a quick decision and takes no prisoners, I’m not calling a defense attorney. I call a cop. I want it done. “Help me, brother.” I have tremendous respect for our law enforcement guys in the field. JF: I do, too. JDP: But anyway, back to federal criminal defense at your arraignment. If you’re indicted by a jury of 16-23 people, you do not have a right to have a preliminary hearing. You do have a right to have a hearing for detention. Will you be detained or not? That judgment call is usually by a United States Attorney who says, “I want him to be detained; he’s a flight risk, and he is therefore a danger to the community.” You must always know what to do, and that’s why it’s important to have an experienced Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Attorney in federal matters like Ms. Ford and myself. It’s critical that you have somebody who knows which stage the proceeding is and what law is involved—how the procedure works. I can assure you within the sound of my voice, in Oklahoma, there are probably not more than a dozen experienced federal criminal defense attorneys. It’s just a field of endeavor that a lot of people don’t like to do. Maybe because of the 70-Day Rule. When they file their indictment, they’re ready to go to trial. JF: Well, and you have to have a trial lawyer, too, because there’s no such thing as a plea agreement in federal court, right? JDP: All plea agreements are blind. JF: Which means the judge is making decisions. Litigation is going to happen. Whether you’ve agreed and admitted your guilt or not, you still have to argue to the court, so you have to be with a lawyer who is experienced in the courtroom, who is able and willing to stand up to the federal court judge or to a jury because you don’t get to agree to a deferred, and everybody goes home, and everybody goes on about their business. This not state court, so at every proceeding, you have to have someone who is ready, willing, and able to put 12 in a box. That’s why a trial lawyer is what you’re looking for. JDP: A federal trial lawyer. There are a lot of good state trial lawyers, but they don’t come to federal court. Two reasons, it’s a rocket docket, and you’ve got to be prepared—you can’t take the time reading through Title 18 and see what the federal rules are and all of that; you have to know that stuff. JF: You’ve got to know it and be ready to go on the fly. JDP: That’s exactly right. JF: That’s why I’m so glad I have you, Jack. I get to piggyback on the back of your 45 years of experience and have the benefit of learning about those sentencing guidelines from the best of the best. JDP: Oh, those sentencing guidelines. You know, I actually was—that was in 1984, and I don’t even think you were born, then, were you? JF: I was born in ’84. I’m not going to tell you how old I was then, but I was born. JDP: Well, I was trying a case. JF: I was not even in school. JDP: That’s kind of what I figured. Well, when the sentencing guidelines were passed by Congress, and everybody was going, “Oh my gosh!” You know how government likes charts and menus. JF: Oh, their demonstrative aids and towers of power! JDP: And they go down through here, and it says this over part I and part B—that’s what the sentencing guidelines are. They were passed in 1984, they were ruled constitutional by the United States Supreme Court in 1987, and in the year 2003, the United States Supreme Court found the United States sentencing guidelines were no longer mandatory, but were advisory. And it gave the judges back the ability to look at a certain defendant who’s already paid back a couple of hundred thousands of dollars in a bank embezzlement case—no harm, no foul—and what a waste of time it is to put this guy in jail to the tune of $3,800 a year. Let’s just put him on probation, make sure he does all of these things, and when he finishes his probation, “Thank you very much. You can become a citizen.” Unfortunately, he’s already a convicted felon, but you can’t play—particularly when you get caught in a federally-insured bank. It’s very important—I cannot emphasize the experience of a federal criminal defense attorney such as Ms. Ford or myself. Federal criminal defense is no place to have training wheels on; it’s impossible. It’s the wrong place. Too much is involved. The crimes and penalties are too draconian. Right now, the emphasis is on human trafficking, a deplorable crime. We’ve handled some human trafficking cases. JF: Yes, we have. JDP: Before that, it was the HIDTA—high impact drug enforcement—that basically worked with methamphetamine. They were after that. Before that, it was the section 924©. Guns. A convicted felon in Oklahoma can possess a long rifle for hunting purposes. Shotgun or rifle. JF: That’s the state law. JDP: That’s the State of Oklahoma law. You can’t have any pistols. A convicted felon under the federal system cannot even possess ammunition. No gun involved, just ammunition. JF: So not only is the punishment sometimes harsher, the procedure sometimes harsher, but also the constitutional rights you walk away from are much greater than what you might see in state court. And that’s another reason there’s such a difference between a state court lawyer and a federal criminal defense lawyer. JDP: I get a kick of these people who say, “Oh, he got off on a technicality.” Very few people realize these technicalities are fundamental rights. They are constitutional protections that were given to us over 200 years. “Here, they can’t have a warrant until they come into your house. And it’s got to be issued by an impartial magistrate upon probable cause. We’re not going to let you cross that man’s threshold at all.” That works for the feds as much as it does for the state. And it’s more important than people understand—their constitutional rights are granted to them in federal courts in bigger portions than in state court. And I’m not saying that state court doesn’t care about them; it’s just the volume of people who are charged in state court. Ms. Ford, how many times have I told you what the conviction is for a federal criminal defendant? JF: Several times. JDP: And what would that number be? JF: 98% JDP: 98% of the people charged across the United State; 98% are convicted. What have I told you about the 2%? JF: There aren’t very many of them around. JDP: And what is the 2% club? JF: Those who have received an acquittal in federal court. It is a badge of honor. JDP: Ms. Ford, you and I are in that category, aren’t we? JF: Yes, sir. We are. We’ve had a lot of good luck in federal court. JDP: Nobody understands the 98% and the 2% club because people just go merrily on their way, going to the movies, and they’re in theaters, and at concerts, and this, that, and the other. And they never think about the federal government. Ms. Ford, do you know what the federal government did—they told you when to get up this morning? JF: Apparently they did, Jack. Tell us why the federal government told me when to get up this morning. JDP: Did you ever hear of Daylight Savings Time? JF: I have. JDP: And who established that? JF: Is that the feds? JDP: That’s correct! And, Ms. Ford, when you go to the ladies’ room, do you know the federal government tells where you can go to the ladies’ room? JF: Man, I haven’t ever thought of the feds when I was in the ladies’ room, but tell me how they control that, too, Jack. JDP: Did you ever hear of the EPA? JF: Yes, sir. JDP: And have you ever looked at your water bill at your home or apartment where it says, “Unfunded federal mandate.” JF: I’ve always wondered what that fee was. JDP: Basically what that is is the federal government has said, “You build this kind of sewer system” or “You build this kind of a waste water system” and we don’t have any money for you.” It’s just “You build it, and we don’t care how you build it.” That’s why it’s called federal unfunded mandate. So there’s just two examples of how the federal government has encroached in our lives now. When you get in trouble with the feds, you’ve got to have someone who knows what they’re doing like Ms. Ford—knows what questions to ask and specifically knows what to do. People in state court—I cannot tell you the admiration I have for any attorney that goes in front of a jury, their peers, 12 people, and actually tries a case on the behalf of a defendant. But it’s not that easy to take that person out of a state courtroom and put him into a federal courtroom. JF: Well it was a hard transition for me when I moved from state court practice to federal court practice. It is a very different beast, if you will. I’m enjoying it, learning the ropes, but it is quite different than anything I’ve ever done before as an attorney. And it’s very different to even talk to my friends and colleagues about it. They oftentimes are shocked at the pace, at the rules, at how bound we might get up in the rules. And it’s a difficult thing to move forward with, and I think our clients are very lucky because when they come here, they don’t just get the benefits of the energy and the mouth and the fire, but they also get you with the great experience. I think it’s okay to tell our listeners that, oftentimes, federal court cases (almost every one of them—not every one of them, but most of them) we do together, whether they’re your clients or my client. I think it’s an incredible service they get—they get both your experience and my youthfulness, but together they’ve got a lot of attention, a lot of love, and a lot of dedication to what’s going on in their defense. JDP: I would not be associated with you and our staff if I did not believe that wholeheartedly. It’s a journey you and I began together, and hopefully we’ll end together. Anyway, I think that’s enough. JF: Thank you so much, Jack, for talking to us today. I know you’re going to talk to us again soon, and we’re going to do more on federal court practice—the ins, the outs, what our clients need to know, and what people need to know about federal criminal defense here in Oklahoma City. So thank you very much, Jack, for joining us today. JDP: You’re quite welcome. /episode/index/show/fordlawokc/id/3932605

Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Lawyers with Jack Dempsey Pointer 11/09/2015

Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Lawyers with Jack Dempsey Pointer JDP: Everybody says, “Why does it take so long for the federal government to investigate things?” What you have to remember is these FBI agencies and all of these guys with the alphabet agencies have a specific US Attorney they are assigned to. A case begins with the US Attorney, and the federal agent has to sit down and say, “You need this and this and this, and you need this and this and this. Go out and do this and this and this.” It just takes time. I’ve seen it take as long as 3-4 years. The investigations where they come in and catch a bank teller with a twenty-dollar bill in their hand—that’s the extent of the investigation? No. For instance, on the Oklahoma City side, an Oklahoma City police officer stops someone for speeding, writes a ticket, sees a joint. That investigation is over right then. And then you go to court and it may take 2-3 years to get conclusion. This is just the opposite. The feds will take their time investigating that person. This could be a larger embezzlement than just twenty dollars. They will go to the casinos and see if this person has a player’s card. They have a player’s card? How active were they? You will be shocked that people use those player’s cards like they’re crazy. There’s just a complete history of their gambling history. JF: And they’re just giving their evidence over to the government. Here it is in a nice little bow. JDP: That might as well go straight to the agent. So they continue their investigation and do all those kinds of things, because they have to make sure. They have to come up with an exact amount of money that is missing, and believe me, every dime, dollar, hundred-dollar bill that is missing or has been misplaced, whether this person did it or not, is all going to get thrown on that person. So they may make a twenty-dollar bill, and it may turn into several hundred thousand. You never know. Anyway, then they back it up because they have all of these gambling records, but she’s only making ten dollars an hour. That kind of thing. JF: So the feds didn’t get their act together early on, they get their case ready to present and when they indict or when they charge by complaint, they’re ready to go. JDP: A complaint is usually charged, as I say, supported by affidavit, but it’s when something immediate is happening. So a person may flee the jurisdiction, or they feel he is going to commit more harm—something like that. They bring these people into court with an affidavit, and they will be arraigned. It’s really a strange thing, when you go in front of a magistrate in any federal court in the United States—and that’s one nice thing about it—it’s very easy to practice in Kansas, Texas, Nebraska, Minnesota, and New York—it’s all the same rules and procedures. JF: And, by golly, they hold you to hose rules unlike state court. Isn’t that right? JDP: Yes, continuances have to be completely written with an accompanying order. JF: And it doesn’t come with that Good Ole’ Boy system: “I know this judge, and we go golfing together, and I had lunch with his secretary.” There’s none of that favoritism. There’s none of that relationship building. I mean, the relationships are important, but when you’re in front of a federal court judge in Oklahoma City, you’re held to a level of standard of anybody else who would walk in that courtroom. JDP: To give you an example of how powerful a federal judge is—we have examples right here in Oklahoma City. A federal judge took over the Oklahoma City school system, and he segregated. A federal judge right here in Oklahoma City took over the Oklahoma Department of Corrections and ran the corrections department. A federal judge in Tulsa took over the Department of Human Services—their foster care unit and so forth—and ran it. Now think about it. One man— JF: Or woman. JDP: Or woman—and, by god, we’ve got some good judges that are women, I might add— JF: Yes, we do. They’ve taken me to school a couple of times. JDP: Well, you know, it’s a long schooling process, I might add. JF: Yes, it is, and that’s okay. JDP: --one man or woman has the authority to affect the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, whether they are people being served by that state agency or whatever. And that’s an awful lot of responsibility and power to invoke in one person. That’s why they go through an extremely hard and difficult vetting process. And for the United States Senate, they say in Washington, it’s all about politics. I’m sorry, I want somebody that I know a little bit about who we’re going to be standing in front of in court, and I want to know a little bit about them. JF: Absolutely. JDP: Those Senate hearings are public, and it’s all printed and things of that nature. Once you’re arrested and you come in front of a magistrate—the comparable thing in state court of a magistrate is a special judge. A magistrate is hired for a specific term. We used to have a magistrate in Lawton, Enid, and several other places, but we don’t have them here anymore. However, we still have bankruptcy courts in Lawton, Enid, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Muskogee—all over the state. Bankruptcy is another matter altogether. On a criminal level, you’re in front of the magistrate and the magistrate says, “Okay, I hereby find there is probably cause to have you arrested and to detain you.” A lot of people get caught in Oklahoma County, and they say, “What’s the jail bail? I’ll pay ten percent.” And they get out… JF: All the bondsmen will help you get out of here. JDP: Bondsmen don’t practice in federal court. Period. You get out on an O.R. or you don’t get out at all. And, if the government requests, they can ask for three days of detention. JF: To get their ducks in a row. JDP: Or to make a point. Because you know all of the jail calls are reported. And people like to talk. JF: It’s the worst thing a criminal defense lawyer can ever do is pop open a discovery disc and hear, “This is a phone call from the Grady County Jail. These phone calls are recorded. Please press 1 to continue.” And the next voice is often our client saying or doing something they shouldn’t be saying. JDP: “I didn’t do that deal!” and I’m going. “This is Jack Dempsey Pointer and Jacqueline Ford, and we have been on a conference call. This is an attorney-client conference, and it is therefore confidential. I had no choice but to speak to my client, other than to be forced to press button number one. I hereby revoke the right of the state to record my phone conversation. Do you agree, too, Mr. Jones?” “Yes, I do.” JF: “Please press one, Mr. Jones.” JDP: But anyway, they can hold you up to three days without bond. Then when you come back in, if you’re not indicted on complaint, then you have the right to a preliminary hearing, which means, one, that the alphabet agency guy gets up there and says what everybody else said. And the second thing is, are you a continuing threat to the community or a flight risk and need to be detained further without bond until this matter is over? Pretty high burdens on both of them. The nice thing is, the hearsay swings both ways. We can make proffers—and that by the way, Ms. Ford, is not a federally recognized word in criminal defense. It’s just whatever you’ve been told, that this man is not a flight risk or risk to the community or something like that. JF: So our first step at defense, oftentimes, is in that first hearing. We’re defending his right to be released on an OR bond. We’re defending her right to go back home pending the outcome of this trial. JDP: That’s correct. Now, let’s compare that to an indictment. An indictment is given by a jury of 16-23 citizens of Oklahoma who meet for six months at a time to hear evidence by a prosecutor all by the prosecutor—no cross-examination, no any type of spin, or anything like that. JF: Nobody’s there to challenge the evidence that’s being presented. JDP: That’s absolutely correct. JF: Sounds fundamentally unfair. JDP: Well, and it’s really kind of strange when you say it’s fundamentally unfair, because the unusual thing about it is that the founding fathers thought it would be our protection from the government. Now it’s being turned into being used as a club against our clients. Usually in that situation, somebody has received a target letter from the US Attorney’s office. “You are being targeted in an investigation.” That means you have a target on your back and you are who they’re coming after. “We hereby give you this opportunity to come in, spill your guts, and throw yourself at our mercy.” JF: And let’s just stop right there. Maybe that’s the first time you meet an Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Attorney, when you open that target letter. JDP: It’s probably after you get your first interview from the FBI, IRS, whatever, that comes out and says, “I’d like to talk to you about this little matter concerning money. Or this little matter concerning ownership.” And you go, “I didn’t even realize it, but I just talked to the FBI, and I wasn’t even Mirandized.” Voluntary conversations with the FBI? JF: So I say again, when you receive that target letter, it’s time to call an Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Lawyer. JDP: Actually, the time you need to all a criminal defense lawyer, Ms. Ford, is when they’re out there, “Can I just talk to you for a minute and let you explain this?” JF: Stop talking to the alphabet agencies. You have the right to remain silent; exercise it. You have the right to a lawyer; exercise it. /episode/index/show/fordlawokc/id/3932585

Oklahoma City Federal Defense Attorney with Jack Dempsey Pointer 11/09/2015

Oklahoma City Federal Defense Attorney with Jack Dempsey Pointer Jacqui Ford: Welcome to Your Best Defense Podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and I’m excited to be here with you today. We’re going to be talking about federal criminal defense and what it means to be charged in federal court, the processes—how they’re different from state court—and why it’s important that, if you’re being investigated for a federal crime, have committed a federal crime, or are charged with a federal crime, you need to find the best Oklahoma City Federal Defense Lawyer you can find. I’m excited today—we have with us my friend and colleague, Mr. Jack Dempsey Pointer. Mr. Pointer has been practicing criminal defense for well over 40 years in the state of Oklahoma. His practice is primarily in the federal courthouse. Jack, thanks for being with us today. JDP: Thank you very much. I did not bring my chisel so I could show you how I wrote Hammurabi’s Code. Ms. Ford and I have embarked on a journey in federal court that very few people have admitted to that privilege. Of course, she’s a tremendous trial lawyer in Oklahoma City—and civil, in the state court. But in federal court, I felt like she needed a little more experience, and that’s why I have kind of taken her under my rather exhaustive wings. JF: And, for that, I could never be grateful enough, Jack. Thank you. JDP: You’re quite welcome. Believe me, you’re going to be paying the price. Ms. Ford approached me about talking about federal criminal defense in Oklahoma City. It’s something that I know something about. As she said, for 45 years, I’ve been doing this. That takes it back to probably when most of the people listening to this’s parents were still in at least junior high school. To start off with, federal criminal defense by Ms. Ford and myself in Oklahoma City is a very unique area. In fact, you’re not going to be able to go to the phone book and say “Federal Criminal Defense.” It’s not going to bring up anybody who has any experience. On the Internet, it’s a little bit of a different deal. A lot of people pay for that privilege, but Ms. Ford as a federal criminal defense attorney has taken this method, which I’m highly impressed with. Let’s start about how Ms. Ford and I approach a case. Indicted in federal criminal court in Oklahoma City. JF: What does it mean to be indicted in federal criminal court, Jack? JDP: The federal government, in criminal cases, does them one of two ways. One is a complaint. A complaint is just a written document supported by an affidavit from one of the alphabet agencies. One of the Is—IRS, ATF, DEA—and secret service does not go by SS. They find someone or it has been reported to them that a crime has been committed under federal jurisdiction, and you have to remember that federal jurisdiction is limited. For instance, in civil cases, in federal jurisdictions all over the country, there’s a minimum of $75,000—the amount has to be $75,000 in controversy—or a constitutional issue. If it’s not $75,000, then it goes to the state court. The federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction, and they are presided over by what we call Article 3 judges that are set forth in the Constitution. Article 3 judges are district court judges that are appointed by the President of the United States, and they serve for life. There’s no elections, no votes of confidence; they’re actually in there for life. Federal judges—there are three judges in Oklahoma, the northern district, which takes in Tulsa; the eastern district, which is surrounded by Muskogee; and then the western district, which roughly is from west of I-35 south to the Texas border and north to the Kansas border. It’s one of the largest districts in the United States. There are 93 federal districts in the United States. All of them have district judges in varying amounts. There are also 93 United States Attorneys. Those individuals are political appointees. You may remember a case when there was recently an election. The President took office and immediately sent out 93 faxes to the people who had been appointed under the prior administration: “Thank you for your service. It’s no longer needed.“ JF: So they worked at the will of the President, and whatever that administration’s agenda might be is strongly influenced by what their US Attorneys and all of the different districts are motivated by. Is that right? JDP: Yes. For instance, here in Oklahoma City, we have a US Attorney, Mr. Sanford Coats. He has a staff of probably 35-50 US Attorneys. These people are highly experienced in federal criminal practice. There of course, is the civil section, but mainly it’s criminal that they handle. And these individuals are the ones responsible and directly connected to the alphabet agencies, and when you’re practicing federal criminal defense in Oklahoma City with Ms. Ford and I, you get an education on this pretty quick. One of the things you have to remember is—when I was talking about the limited jurisdiction of the federal government—we have interstate highways, which are nationally funded and built by states’ highways. (Little highways are enforced by Oklahoma State Troopers.) They could be enforced by the FBI, DEA, ATF—whomever—to go out there to write traffic tickets and whatever, but that’s a terrible waste of a very experienced resource. FBI agents don’t need to be writing traffic tickets is what I’m saying. JF: So what do these alphabet agencies do? How do we find ourselves in the limited jurisdiction of the western district of Oklahoma—or any court in Oklahoma, Jack? JDP: Let’s go to some examples. Federal banks that are federally insured by the FBI see if a teller, a bank officer, or someone like that commits a crime like laundering money or misincorporating it or misplacing it or misusing it, that is automatically reported by management to FBI, or secret service, IRS—it just depends on what it is. JF: And we have some experience here, right? It’s not just you get caught and you pony up all the money like we’ve seen in the past, and so they don’t say anything—no harm, no foul. In fact, there’s not a “Pay it back, and we won’t say anything” kind of deal, is there, Jack? JDP: No, Ms. Ford and I’ve prosecuted a federal court case in Oklahoma City where the individual was caught, and he paid every dime—several hundred thousand dollars back immediately. JF: Prior to the feds even knowing anything had even gone missing. JDP: Nobody was involved. We were dealing with a civil lawyer on the money, okay? And we paid the check—and of course, attorneys and civil attorneys aren’t criminal attorneys. They can’t guarantee there won’t be prosecution. So we tried to nail him down and say we’re not going to tell anybody, and we were quickly informed that this instance must be reported to federal regulators. JF: It was mandatory. JDP: Yes, it’s absolutely. Or the person would get in trouble. So we had a situation where the next thing, we got a phone call from the lawyer for the FDIC in Dallas and we got a phone call from the FBI, and we began our merry journey through the federal defense system here in Oklahoma City, Ms. Ford and I did. Fortunately for the gentleman, he received one of the few sentences I have ever seen where probation was granted. That’s highly unusual. The federal sentencing guidelines and the federal law provide that there is no longer any parole in the federal system. If you get a 10-year sentence, you’re going to do eight-and-a-half years flat. JF: Now, Jack, that doesn’t sound like easy time. It sounds a little different than state court, too. In state court, I can get a 10-year sentence, depending on the crime I committed, and let’s just say it’s a measly little white-collar crime, as people like to downplay white-collar crimes in this country. I might not serve all 10 of that in state court, but in federal court, with there being no “Good Time” credit and no parole, we’re serving every day. JDP: The state court sentence you’re talking about is probably a deferred sentence and pay the money back and so-on-and-so-forth. The sentence you would receive in federal court is not only pay the money back, but under the sentencing guidelines, we have chart and we have a table. We compare how many points are added, and so-on-and-so-forth, and then you come up with a range of punishment. That range of punishment used to be mandatory, but now it’s advisory to the federal judges. However, the judges follow it pretty closely, but I can assure you, that if it’s embezzlement from a federally-insured institution, a federal agency, beating up a postal officer, you don’t like the SEC—all that kind of stuff—that’s all going to federal, and you’re going to do flat, hard time. We have three types of prisons on the federal system. There are the camps—the ones that are so notorious that everyone calls them “Camp Fed”—I believe you try to envision yourself that in 24-hours, they tell you to get up, to go to sleep, and you do what they say. You take a banker who has owned several banks who has to go out in the morning and has to milk cows. It’s not too easy for him. Then you have the federal correction institutions—FCI. (The camp and FCI in Oklahoma—we have one in El Reno.) It’s a federal camp, and it’s also a federal correction institution. The federal correctional institution is behind wire, not walls. It’s very difficult to get in and get out of. Of course, you hear of no escapes from there. The third type of institution is basically a prison, and that would be places like Leavenworth, Kansas. And Leavenworth, Kansas is very much like McAlester—it’s a very strict environment behind walls. JF: So it’s not a place any one of our clients, future or current, want to find themselves. JDP: No. JF: This is not easy time. So, as criminal defense lawyers in Oklahoma, what do we do? What do we do to keep them from finding themselves in one of these three places? JDP: Well, it’s like any other case except for it’s accelerated. You must understand that, under the federal system, they have something called the Speedy Trial Act, and the Speedy Trial Act basically says the first time you appear before a federal magistrate or judicial officer, a clock begins to run. And that clock is 70 days. At the end of that 70 days, we’re not talking about talking to get a jury—the judge is calling the jury. You’re getting ready to try this case. JF: 70 days from indictment to jury trial. JDP: From initial appearance to jury trial. /episode/index/show/fordlawokc/id/3932537

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