How Brands Are Built
On How Brands Are Built, branding professionals get into the details of what they do and how they do it. Other podcasts about branding focus on news, opinion, and high-level theory. They can give you a 30,000-foot view of branding; How Brands Are Built is where the rubber meets the road. In each episode, Rob Meyerson, a San Francisco-based brand strategist, interviews other strategists, designers, writers, namers, and researchers to help you understand how brands are really built.
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Fabian Geyrhalter builds and launches successful brands
05/13/2024
Fabian Geyrhalter builds and launches successful brands
Rob Meyerson and Fabian Geyrhalter discuss brand strategy's balance of innovation and foundational rules, touching on brand creation challenges and successful launches in the evolving marketing landscape. Today’s episode is special. It's an edited version of a LinkedIn livestream chat with Fabian Geyrhalter, founder and principal at FINIEN, "a purposefully small consultancy based in Los Angeles." Fabian is a brand strategist and creative director and host of the Hitting the Mark podcast. He's also written several best-selling books, including How to Launch a Brand and The Brand Therapy Book. Lastly, Fabian is founder of Toneoptic, which we discuss on the show. Fabian was a guest on season two of How Brands Are Built, and I had a great time talking to him again. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. To learn more about Fabian, visit . From there, you'll find links to his podcast and books. For Toneoptic, visit .
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Rob Goodman uses content to drive business outcomes
03/06/2024
Rob Goodman uses content to drive business outcomes
Today's guest is Rob Goodman. Rob specializes in content strategy and creative content production, with experience at companies like Google, Wix, and Webflow. He's delivered award-winning branded content, content strategies, and comprehensive content calendars for these companies and other clients, helping brands transform into publishers built for engaging today's audiences. Rob also hosts his own podcast, Making Ways, about the intersection of art and music. He interviews bands, like Melvins and Nada Surf, and the visual artists they collaborate with to create album art, music videos, and more. It's as cool as it sounds—I highly recommend you check it out. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to Rob is because he's also a contributor to the new edition of Designing Brand Identity, which I co-authored with the late Alina Wheeler. Rob pitched in on the pages about social media and a few others, but his biggest contribution was helping us update the content strategy spread, where you'll find the following quote from him: "The best content cuts through the noise, connects with customers, and drives the business—all while moving at the speed of culture." On the episode, we talk about definitions of terms like content strategy, content planning, and content production. We dive into the different objectives of content strategy, and Rob shares some high-level process tips for creating great content. We also run through Jonah Berger's six "STEPPS" to viral content, and Rob shares his take on a few of them. To learn more about Rob Goodman, visit or find him on . You can listen to his Making Ways podcast at . And if you're interested in the sixth edition of Designing Brand Identity, find it on or at .
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Season four wrap-up: How brands (and branding professionals) can do good
06/07/2021
Season four wrap-up: How brands (and branding professionals) can do good
It's the summer of 2021—one year since the . And if you’re wondering what that has to do with the season-four wrap-up of a podcast about branding, let me tell you: in early 2020 I had a plan for season four of How Brands Are Built. But in the wake of George Floyd’s murder and protests around the world, my plan changed a bit. 2020 was already a pretty awful year for most people, and it just seemed to be getting worse and worse. So I started thinking about whether there was a way I could use this little platform of mine to do some good—or at least talk about something positive. That led me to reach out to my most diverse set of guests yet, starting with , who talked about the origins of racist brand names and what to do about them. I talked to female agency founders like of Noise 13, of Motto, and of Red Antler about how they got started and the role of diversity in their agency cultures. The season ended with a two-part episode featuring and his agency's design apprentice, , who told me about one way to create opportunities for talented, but less privileged, designers and strategists. And along the way, I talked to of , , author of , and of Sid Lee. While I talked to guests about their agencies, books they’d written, or other topics specific to their areas of expertise, I also asked nearly all of them about what brands and branding professionals could be doing to improve the state of the world—in light of , in light of racial injustice, and just in general. Are brands a force for good? Can they be? Should they try to be? At the end of this episode, which features clips from every interview this season, I boil everything I heard and learned down into five ways brands—and branding professionals like you and me—can make the world a better place (sorry): Be selective (and stick to your values) Walk the talk Wield your influence Proactively pursue diversity Don’t underestimate the power of your work In the episode, I break down each of these ideas in detail.
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Diego Segura goes through the doors that open
03/01/2021
Diego Segura goes through the doors that open
Diego Segura is a design apprentice at , an independent strategy and brand experience design company with offices in New York City and San Francisco. In this episode, Diego describes how he discovered graphic design, his decision to drop out of high school, and what it's like being an apprentice at a prestigious branding and design company. This is the second part of a two-part series; the episode begins with a continuation of . Brian shares his side of Diego's story—how Diego first got in touch, how he became a full-time employee, and why, on one of their early days together, Brian took him out to run errands throughout New York City. After a short intro from Brian, the interview with Diego begins. I was eager to get Diego's backstory—it's fascinating (and inspiring) to hear how he got from a small town outside Austin, Texas to Collins in New York City. Along the way, he emailed with Michael Beirut, did multiple remote internships, and wrote (a chronicle of [my] crazy junior year). We also talked about the importance of agencies and design studios looking outside the traditional design schools, like and —schools Diego wasn't even aware of when he was in high school—for new talent. I'm telling you now: If I was out to start a studio today, I would practically build it solely on young ambitious people led by a really great creative director, head of design. Because the level of talent who reaches out to me personally, because they see I'm the design apprentice on the [Collins] website—the level of talent is insane. They are so, so, so good. ... There's no doubt they can add value. It's just, they didn't come from the same places that all the other designers came from, and we've gotta be okay with that." – Diego Segura To learn more about Collins visit their . You can learn more about Diego (and see some of his work) at and you can . If you're interested in checking out Diego's book, , it's available on Amazon, as is his second book, .
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Alina Wheeler has a doppelgänger named Blake Deutsch
12/21/2020
Alina Wheeler has a doppelgänger named Blake Deutsch
Today’s guest is Alina Wheeler, best known as the author of now in its fifth edition. One of my favorite memories of this book is seeing it on a desk when I arrived to my first day on the job at , where I worked in Shanghai. I already knew the book, but seeing it in use, so far from home—that's when I really understood how influential of a book it is. In fact, it's been translated into Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, French, and other languages—and it's used by brand, marketing, and design teams, undergraduate and graduate students, and brand and business consultancies all over the world. I wanted to get an idea of why Alina wrote the book and what she was doing beforehand (around 2003). Along with being an author, she's a designer with over 40 years of experience working with teams in the public and private sector. She’s led the development of integrated brand identity programs, sales and marketing strategies, and design and communications systems. I was excited to have the opportunity to talk to Alina about her career, the book she’s created, and what the future holds for Designing Brand Identity. During the conversation, I learned that there will be a sixth edition but she won't be the author (!!!), how she gets case studies and quotes for the book, and the true identity of the mysterious Blake Deutsch. (It's hilarious—listen to find out.) Toward the end of the conversation, I asked Alina whether there's anything she'd like to support and ask that others check out, and she talked about , a brand identity designer and anthologist on indigenous African design systems and African Symbology. Simon's work includes the book, a compendium of 1,000 unique symbols inspired by indigenous African design systems, symbols, and culture. And off the air, Alina also mentioned , something else she’s passionate about and recommends everyone checks out. I found the conversation both enlightening and inspiring, and I hope you do too. To learn more about Alina and Designing Brand Identity, visit . Of course, the book is available on and wherever books are sold. Alina’s also active on and .
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Nirm Shanbhag sees brand architecture from the consumer's perspective
12/07/2020
Nirm Shanbhag sees brand architecture from the consumer's perspective
Nirm Shanbhag is the Chief Strategy Officer of USA, an international creative company. He’s also my old boss. Back in 2012, he was running the San Francisco office of Interbrand, and he hired me as Director of Verbal Identity. Before Interbrand, Nirm earned his MBA from London Business School and worked in advertising, at firms like Mullen and McCann. He also ran his own, independent agency, , for about six years between his roles at Interbrand and Sid Lee. Nirm and I have worked together quite a bit—first at Interbrand, then as independent consultants. We’ve been called in on projects a few times, and Nirm is one of just a handful of people I consider an expert on the topic. Since I haven’t had too many (any) episodes focused on brand architecture, I was eager to get Nirm to share some of his insights into brand architecture—what it is, why it matters, and how it should be done. Throughout the conversation, Nirm came back time and again to the idea of keeping the consumer’s journey front and center, considering their motivations and approaches to decision-making. We also talked about brand purpose, and whether brands are good or bad for society (heady stuff). At the end of the conversation, Nirm recommended two very different books: (“a seminal work and … one that not a lot of people know about”) and , by Stephen Hawking. I’ve probably read [] four times in my life. The reason I think it’s worthwhile is because, yeah, it’s about physics, but at its heart it’s a book about perspective and recognizing that your perspective can change.” – Nirm Shanbhag To learn more about Nirm and Sid Lee, visit . I also recommend you check out some of Nirm’s blog posts on the .
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Emily Heyward builds brands that inspire obsession
11/23/2020
Emily Heyward builds brands that inspire obsession
Emily Heyward is co-founder and and Chief Brand Officer at , the leading brand company for startups and new ventures. Red Antler is the branding firm behind brands like Casper, Allbirds, Keeps, and Burrow. They also work with established brands like American Express, HBO, Google, and Gap. Emily was named among the Most Important Entrepreneurs of the Decade by Inc. Magazine, and has also been recognized as a Top Female Founder by Inc. and one of Entrepreneur's Most Powerful Women of 2019. She's also the author of a new book, . I asked Emily what makes Red Antler different from other branding firms and what makes it, in the words of a 2018 , one of "the surprisingly small group of branding shops behind today's top challenger brands." She says Red Antler was "the first creative services company that was designed and built to work with startups" and, as a result, "we've thought about brand in an incredibly holistic way … with obviously a particular focus on digital." Next, we turned to Emily's book, . "The book really came out of 12 years of running Red Antler, launching new, disruptive businesses into the world, and seeing the ways in which brands’ relationships with consumers are shifting. … The rules are not the same as they were, certainly 20 years ago, but even six years ago. Things keep changing.” – Emily Heyward Then we turned to the events of 2020, and I asked Emily for her take on how brands should respond to racial injustice, as well as the COVID pandemic. Lastly, I asked Emily some wrap-up questions, including a brand/initiative she recommends checking out (the ), a book recommendation (), and her advice to you people in the industry: "Be curious. I think that so much of what we do is a response to the world around us—to culture and trends and what makes people tick. And when I meet with someone that doesn’t seem like they're passionate about what's happening in the world, and what businesses are out there, and what they're seeing, and what they're loving—for me, that's an immediate red flag." – Emily Heyward To learn more about Emily and Red Antler, visit or . is available on Amazon and wherever books are sold.
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Armin Vit has a little grid in his mind
11/09/2020
Armin Vit has a little grid in his mind
Today’s guest is Armin Vit, co-founder of , a graphic design firm, and editor and writer for , the leading site for reviews of corporate and brand identity design work. Born and raised in Mexico City, Armin—along with his wife and partner, Bryony Gomez-Palacio—have created multiple other design blogs, co-authored books, and organized events like the annual . I was excited to talk to Armin about design trends, blogging, and the pros and cons of being a professional critic. The conversation started with some ancient history, going back to a blog called “,” and FutureBrand’s 2003 , which gave rise to Brand New. I asked Armin how he selects which work to review on Brand New, and he said he has a "little grid" in his mind. The more people are likely to be familiar with the client, the more likely he is to write about the work. If the client is small and unknown, the work has to be groundbreaking. Much of the work he sees is "fine"—but work that's just fine is actually less interesting than work that's terrible. I meet other designers [that] will joke that they are always wondering ... what I might say. They're always thinking about, 'Oh shit, I hope this doesn't make it on Brand New. Or if it does, I hope it goes fine.' It just increases that level of stress ... but in a positive way that I have to make sure that what I'm saying is valuable to as many people as possible and doesn't put down anyone just for the sake of it. Armin Vit Armin and I went on to talk about a design trend he's seen lately: a stampede of wordmarks featuring geometric sans fonts, like Airbnb and Google, and the backlash against them, epitomized by the Chobani logotype. Next, we discussed how design and branding can make a positive impact on the world, his experience as a Mexican-American immigrant and how it influences his thinking as a designer—especially given some of the Trump administration's rhetoric and policies toward immigrants and Mexico in particular. I asked Armin for an example of some work he's seen that's making a positive impact, and he mentioned , which repurposes a bee designed for IBM by Paul Rand, highlighting an equals sign in its stripes. To close out, I asked for Armin's book recommendations (he likes , by Michael Johnson) and his advice for young designers and people in the branding industry: "Look at a lot of brand design ... It's really about building your palate for identity design, how colors work, how typefaces work. It's not about copying anything, but taking bits of pieces from different places, and how you will apply that to your own lens, to your clients, or to your work. It's consuming a lot of identity design and letting it simmer in your subconscious." But honestly, he says, that's not just a pitch for Brand New. To learn more about Armin, visit , from which you can find as well as design work by Armin and Bryony, books they've written, like , and events like the .
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Sunny Bonnell reframes your vices as virtues
10/26/2020
Sunny Bonnell reframes your vices as virtues
On the podcast today: Sunny Bonnell, co-founder of , one of the leading branding agencies in the country, with clients like Google, Hershey's, and Twentieth Century Fox. Sunny and her co-founder, Ashleigh Hansberger, recently wrote their first book, . Sunny says the book started with a question: "What if you could take the parts of yourself that other people criticize—traits they call defiant, dangerous, and different—and turn those things into your selling points?" We talked about how Sunny and Ashleigh arrived at the seven "virtues" in Rare Breed: Rebellious Audacious Obsessed Hot-blooded Weird Hypnotic Emotional If you're curious which virtue applies to you, try the . Sunny and Ashleigh also host a , also called Rare Breed, where they sit down with guests like Charlamagne Tha God and Jon Batiste. I asked Sunny about Motto's origin story, the challenges of being one of very few female-owned agencies, the importance of diversity, and more. Toward the end of the conversation, Sunny recommended a few books: and , both by Paul Ardern, as well as , by Margaret Mark and Carol Pearson. We ended with some of Sunny's motivating advice for anyone trying to grow their career: "Own who you are. In a world that wants to own you, owning yourself in this way can really hurt like hell. Being defiant, dangerous, and different is a gift. Succeed because of who you are, not despite who you are." To learn more about Sunny, check out her agency's work at . Rare Breed is available now on and elsewhere. And, if you go to , you can watch episodes of Sunny and Ashleigh's YouTube show and take the Rare Breed quiz. If you take the quiz or read the book, drop us a line on social media-I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I'm sure Sunny would, too. Episode sponsors from Egle Karalyte. Available in both digital and print formats, the Kit provides structure and tools to streamline and gamify your branding process. . To begin a business name contest with hundreds of business naming experts, check out their services to get a fresh perspective on your company.
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Dava Guthmiller makes the invisible visible
10/12/2020
Dava Guthmiller makes the invisible visible
In this episode, I'm talking to Dava Guthmiller, founder and Chief Creative Officer at , a brand strategy and design agency based in San Francisco. She's also cofounder of , and annual conference that celebrates the art of design and creativity, and In/Visible Project, which includes a collection of other events that bring people together over the process, inspiration, and challenges for design and creative professionals. Throughout the conversation, we touched on diversity in the worlds of design and branding. I asked Dava what it was like to start Noise 13 as a young, female designer, and how In/Visible Talks is giving a platform to a racially diverse and heavily female-leaning group of speakers. Next, we got into the weeds a bit on how Dava built the In/Visible Talks brand. She told me where the name came from and how the visual identity for year one involved a trip to the dollar store. We rounded out the conversation, as we often do on the podcast, with book recommendations and advice for young professionals in the branding and design industry. Dava recommended by Maria Ross (see Maria's on How Brands Are Built) and Marty Neumeier's . And she had several pieces of advice for young designers, including encouragement to try many different internships and jobs until you find the best fit: "Take internships. Find a mentor. Try it on. Try a small company. Try in-house. Try something big. This is your life. This is your job. Find the right project team fit for you, so that your life is not miserable." To learn more about Dava, visit or . The annual conference will be on Jan 14, 2021, and early bird tickets are on sale now.
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Dr. Jason Chambers explains the origins of racist brands
09/28/2020
Dr. Jason Chambers explains the origins of racist brands
Season four has arrived, and my first guest is Dr. Jason Chambers of the University of Illinois. The theme for this season will be a bit looser than past seasons, but I'm hoping to get perspectives on the social impact of brands and branding. In other words, are brands a good thing for society, overall? In light of what's happened in 2020-the pandemic, protests for racial justice, increasingly extreme weather as a result of climate change, and even the U.S. presidential election-this topic felt relevant. I first heard Dr. Chambers on , a podcast from WAMU that's distributed by NPR, where he talked about "reckoning with racist brands" like Aunt Jemima and the Washington, D.C., NFL team. I was excited to talk to Dr. Chambers in a little more detail about these brand names, where they come from, why they should change, and how to change them. Dr. Chambers's research is focused on the history of African Americans in the advertising industry, a topic about which he's written a book: . Given his expertise, I also wanted to get his take on diversity in the agency world. I don't often interview professors on the show (which makes sense, given it's a show about "how brands are built"), but I had so much fun talking to Dr. Chambers and exploring his in-depth knowledge of these subjects; I hope this is not the last time I host an academic or professor on the show. To hear more from Dr. Chambers, I encourage you to check out the episode of 1A he joined, "." You can also find his opinions in publications like Ad Age, Adweek, CNN, Forbes, Black Enterprise, and The New York Times. He's written another book, too: uilding the Black Metropolis: African American Entrepreneurship. Lastly, you can of course find him on the and .
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Special episode: Rob on IG Live with Ilya of Studeo
07/27/2020
Special episode: Rob on IG Live with Ilya of Studeo
On June 11, 2020, Rob (creator and host of How Brands Are Built) joined Ilya Lobanov of on Instagram Live for a chat about brand strategy and naming. Ilya is an Australia-based designer and strategist who teaches multiple branding classes (available on his site and ). Given Ilya's design background and Rob's naming experience, the conversation often covered similarities between design and naming. This special episode features the entire IG Live conversation (including live comments from viewers, which Ilya occasionally reads out loud). The episode is also available on and as a . If you like the interview, follow Ilya on Instagram (), where he's also interviewed designers and branding experts like and Reagan (Frank) Mackrill of .
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Special episode: Rob on the JUST Branding Podcast
07/13/2020
Special episode: Rob on the JUST Branding Podcast
Rob joins Jacob Cass of JUST Creative and Matt Davies on their new podcast, . We explored best practices for naming, positioning statements, and conducting discovery for brand strategy through the lenses of the company, client, and consumer. Rob shared actionable tips and real-world examples that will help you build a better brand.
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Mini episode: David Aaker on game-changing subcategories
04/27/2020
Mini episode: David Aaker on game-changing subcategories
Today's episode features a rare repeat guest: none other than David Aaker, Professor Emeritus at the Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley, Vice-Chair at Prophet, a global marketing and branding consultancy, and prolific author of books and articles about branding. , we talked about two of his books, Aaker on Branding, 20 Principles that Drive Success, and Creating Signature Stories. We also talked at length about his . If you’re interested in hearing that longer conversation with “the Father of Modern Branding,” go . This time, we’re talking about David’s newest book, . The premise of the book is that the only way for a business or brand to grow (with rare exceptions) is "to create or find 'must haves' that define whole new subcategories that can attract a loyal customer following." During the conversation, David explains where he got the idea for the book, what he means by terms like "game-changing subcategory" and "must haves," and how digital has changed everything. He also illustrates his ideas through examples like Dollar Shave Club, Apple, and Airbnb. At the end of the conversation, David provides one final piece of advice to business owners and brand managers: "Look for opportunities to create subcategory platforms—new ways [of] looking at what the customer is using and their relationship with the brand. And when you see one, think long and hard before you turn your back on it. ... Take some risks and make some investments, make some commitments. Because that's really the only way to grow."
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Mini episode: Brands reacting to COVID-19
04/15/2020
Mini episode: Brands reacting to COVID-19
Generally, I try to make the How Brands Are Built podcast evergreen. I want listeners to be able to go back any old episode and find that the conversation—whether it’s with a namer, a strategist, an author, or some other branding professional—is still relevant. But this episode is different. It’s April, 2020, and we’re in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. To say the least, it’s been disruptive. (And not in the cool, buzzwordy kind of way.) Early on in the crisis, I read news of Zoom , grocery stores , and The New York Times . I started keeping track of how companies were pitching in, and created an post highlighting six approaches, with an example for each. Shortly thereafter, I started seeing similar content, including a blog post from , titled “.” I wanted to talk a bit more about how brands are reacting, so I reached out to the authors, Lauren Wong, Associate Strategy Director, and Myra El-Bayoumi, Head of Strategy. (Myra’s name may sound familiar—.) Lauren and Myra graciously agreed to hop on Zoom for a quick, impromptu chat about what brands can do, should do, and in some cases, should avoid doing, in times of crisis.
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Mini episode: Brad Flowers and The Naming Book
04/09/2020
Mini episode: Brad Flowers and The Naming Book
For the second mini episode of the podcast, I’m talking to Brad Flowers, founding partner of , a marketing company in Lexington, Kentucky. Brad is also the author of a new book entitled, . Regular listeners know that is an area of focus for me, so when I heard about Brad’s book, I couldn’t want to read it and ask him a few questions. We started out talking about how there aren’t too many books about naming out there (, which now includes Brad’s). Brad wrote his book because he’d had trouble early in his career finding something that documented a replicable process for his team. The five steps Brad recommends are: Establishing Criteria Brainstorming Compiling Names Expanding Your Knowledge Deciding on the Final Name Within each step, Brad includes short worksheets and exercises. One that I especially like comes right at the beginning, when he asks readers to pick any three brand names and post-rationalize where the names came from. Brad says it “gives someone the opportunity to take a step back and start to just recognize the names that exist and how they’re working, so that when you start to think about your name, you can understand that while Apple seems like a great name, on day one it felt like a really risky, and probably a pretty dumb name, really.” We rounded out the conversation talking about the benefits of sometimes going “off brief,” how to ask other people their opinion on name ideas, and Brad’s favorite naming story (involving his five-year-old son). To learn more about The Naming Book, visit . It’s available now on , , and . To learn more about Brad and Bullhorn, visit , or find them on social media.
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Mini episode: Career advice
03/09/2020
Mini episode: Career advice
This is the first of several "mini episodes" of How Brands Are Built. Hopefully, you saw this mentioned on social media or in the : between now and the next season (TBA), I'll release a few short episodes on a range of topics—no consistent through-line, just some interesting, snack-sized branding content. I reached out on , , , and asking for feedback on which mini episodes would be most interesting or useful. If you’re one of the many people who weighed in, thank you! And now that the results are in, I'm happy to share this first mini episode, all about careers in branding. I've spent some time reviewing interviews from the past two seasons, looking at the advice guests gave, and grouping them into themes. I've boiled it down to six pieces of advice broken out across three categories: Category 1: Where you work Surround yourself with good people—it’s more important than getting to work on cool, big brands, especially when you’re just getting started. And it might mean starting out at a smaller agency, where you could have more exposure to clients and experienced coworkers. Category 2: How you work Master the basics, such as running an interview, presenting, and writing, as well as gaining a basic understanding of how business works. Pick a lane; for example, research or analytics. See the big picture—always think about the problem you’re trying to solve for the client. Know that saying, “To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail”? Don’t be a hammer. Category 3: Why you work Get out there—experience new things Enjoy what you do This episode goes into more detail on each of the six pieces of advice, with clips, quotes, and insights from interviews with: of Sticky Branding of Two by Four of FINIEN , independent brand consultant of Liquid Agency , strategy executive and doctor of sociology of BrandingBusiness of Character , author of What Great Brands Do and Fusion of Principals of PUSH Collective of Metaforce of Chapter of eatbigfish of Ries & Ries of Liquid Agency (and author of Brand Gap and Zag) of Prophet (and author of Building Strong Brands and Brand Portfolio Strategy)
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Season three wrap-up: How to build a brand experience
01/15/2020
Season three wrap-up: How to build a brand experience
Season three of the podcast featured my most wide-ranging conversations yet. I talked to guests about topics such as naming, social influence, and fusing brand and culture. Like , I talked to a mix of popular authors and speakers, like Jeremy Miller and Denise Lee Yohn, as well as some people I've worked with closely at agencies like , , and . Thank you to all my guests this season: , founder of ; author of and , president of (formerly president and COO of ) , principal and founder of ; author of and , independent brand consultant , Chief Strategy Officer at , strategy executive; PhD in sociology , founding partner at , strategy director at , brand leadership expert; author of and Thank you, too, for listening, sharing your thoughts, following along the website, social media, and the . The theme of this season, broadly speaking, was brand experience. In this wrap-up episode, I walk through what a brand experience is and how to create or improve one. First off, how should we define brand experience? About a year ago, before this season started, I posted the following : "The totality of all sensations, feelings, thoughts, and actions evoked by a brand." That pretty much aligns with other definitions I've seen from the likes of . (His, from , is "All the interactions people have with a product, service, or organization.") The episode kicks off with Ken Pasternak and Caren Williams each going into detail on how they think about brand experience. Next, we get to the four steps for creating (or strengthening) a brand experience. Sounds simple, but each step requires some serious work. In the episode, each step is fleshed out and supported with audio clips from the season's interviews. Four steps to create or improve a brand experience Get the brand strategy right (should a strategy platform include experience principles?) Outline the context within which the brand will be experienced (e.g., customer journey mapping) Brainstorm ideas for the brand experience (often takes place in a collaborative work session with the client) Implement, measure, and modify (organize ideas by impact/effort, mock up or prototype ideas, and always be iterating) To learn more about brand experience and the guests from season three, listen to each full episode or read transcripts on . You'll also find a growing list of this season and last. Thanks again, especially to those of you who've , , or on social media. If you haven't done those things already, please do-I really appreciate the support!
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Denise Lee Yohn fuses brand, business, and culture
12/09/2019
Denise Lee Yohn fuses brand, business, and culture
My final guest for season three of the podcast is Denise Lee Yohn, author of the bestseller, She's also an in-demand keynote speaker, and has appeared on CNBC, Fox Business, NPR, and in the Wall Street Journal discussing business and branding issues. Denise cut her teeth in lead strategy roles for the advertising agencies behind campaigns for Burger King and Land Rover, and has held client-side positions at Jack In The Box and Sony. On this episode, Denise and I talk about the relationship between brand and business, why it's important to "sweat the small stuff," brand experience versus employee experience, and her latest book, . I kicked off the conversation with a question about the relationship between brand and business, something I've been interested in since writing for The Guardian in 2014. Denise and I agree that business leaders need to stop thinking of brand and business (or brand strategy and business strategy, at least) as two separate things. They are "one and the same," to use Denise's words. Next, we talked about one of the seven "brand-building principles" from her book, What Great Brands Do. According to the book, great brands "Sweat the Small Stuff." Denise explains that the process she recommends for achieving this goal and introduces she's created, the Brand Touchpoint Wheel. Later in the conversation, Denise and I talked about her latest book, Fusion, which explores the relationship between culture and brand. While she does not recommend creating employer brand platforms (partly because they create an unnecessary divide between the external and internal-facing brand), she does recommend working on the employee experience using a similar approach to that used for customer brand experience. The Brand Touchpoint Wheel can again prove useful when working on the employee experience, as can , the Employee Experience Architecture Framework. As usual, we wrapped up the conversation with Denise's book recommendations and advice for junior/aspiring branding professionals. You won't want to miss it! To learn more about Denise, visit . On her site, you'll find information about her books, speaking engagements, and consulting practice, as well as her blog, and more free, downloadable tools like the ones we mentioned in our conversation. You can also find and follow Denise on , , , or .
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Myra El-Bayoumi doesn't mind blowing up the process
12/02/2019
Myra El-Bayoumi doesn't mind blowing up the process
My guest on today's episode is , Strategy Director at , a branding and design studio with offices in New York and San Francisco. Before Character, Myra held senior strategy positions at , , and (which is where I met her). Myra also holds an MBA from the . Given Myra's experience, I wanted to get her perspective on the similarities and differences in brand strategy approach, philosophy, and deliverables among top-tier brand consulting firms. She has a lot of respect for her prior firms, but admits she's biased toward Character now that she's leading their strategy efforts. She says she's "better equipped to see the value of a place like Character because [she] grew up in the big shops," and that differences at Character include more flexibility, the ability to "blow up our process in service of solving" the client's problems, and speed. Myra describes the Character approach to brand strategy as arriving at answers to two key questions: Why did this brand exist, beyond to make money? Why should the world choose this brand? The second question should be answered in a way that's relevant in today's culture but also "evergreen for the future." This link between the brand strategy and cultural trends is equally applicable for B2B brands, Myra says, citing the example of (a product of Dialpad, a Character client). "One of the examples of a B2B brand that we worked with, who I actually think does the brand experience thing pretty well is Dialpad. You might not know Dialpad, but you probably know UberConference, which is one of their products, and UberConference has that famous hold music. That's an example-and we didn't create that, so I won't take any credit for it-but we know those people now and we know how well that hold music-what it says, the sound of it, and the fact that it exists in the first place-represent the spirit and the DNA of who that company is." I asked Myra what components she thinks are necessary in a brand platform. She says purpose is critical, but that values and personality traits "lack precision, focus, clarity, and sharpness." We got into an interesting conversation about whether personality belongs within a brand strategy platform or should be removed, allowing design principles or voice principles to play a similar role, but "outside" of the brand platform. We wrapped up by talking about a brand Myra thinks is doing "pretty much everyhing right" () and a book she recommends () even though "it has nothing to do with branding. It just has to do with humans." To learn more about Myra, visit the .
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Alan Brew sees corporate narrative as the evolution of positioning
11/18/2019
Alan Brew sees corporate narrative as the evolution of positioning
Alan Brew has been in branding since 1985. In this, episode he takes us back to that year to explain how he got into the industry and what he's seen change since then. Along the way, he's worked with clients like Chevron, Elsevier, Tech Data, Royal Bank of Canada, Delta Airlines, and Huawei, as well as a number of startups and small-to-medium businesses. Now a founding partner at in Southern California, Alan's career has also included roles at , , and . Alan and I met at that last one: Siegel+Gale. I was lowest man on the totem pole (I think that may have actually been my title) when Alan came in as Managing Director of the LA office. I remember an early meeting with Alan. We were in a full conference room with lots of smart strategists and designers sitting around the table. I was used to being a fly on the wall for meetings like this-maybe just taking notes or waiting for some marching orders. I can't remember what the meeting was about or what we were trying to decide, but I remember, vividly, Alan turning to me and asking my opinion on the matter at hand. Now, maybe Alan just didn't know how unimportant I was, but I took it as something else: To me, it was a recognition that my point of view had value, hierarchy be damned. That moment stuck with me, and shortly after Alan left, I followed him to his next agency and joined his strategy team. I wanted to get Alan talking about his early days in the industry, including the origin of "global brands," the first time he saw the book Positioning, the age of the corporate narrative, and a fateful dinner meeting with , back in 1985. Next, we talked about a proprietary tool at BrandingBusiness, the Brand Performance Platform. "The Brand Performance Platform is a databased research program that produces analytics, metrics, for evaluating brands on ... awareness, consideration, preference, and purchase intent-the classic sales funnel," says Alan. "But we can put metrics against those elements and look at where a company is succeeding or where a brand is succeeding. ... We can, on those four metrics, create an index, which we call the Brand Performance Platform, and say, 'This is your index and this is how you increase it,' and we can correlate that increase to revenue performance." Afterward, we got into an interesting conversation about "corporate narrative," which Alan think of as an evolution of positioning. We talked about storytelling and content creation, with Alan explaining that brand strategy has "become more of a fungible externalized set of strategic components rather than just this inert strategic document that lives on somebody's shelf." Lastly, Alan shared some favorite brands (Amazon and Subaru) and recommended some non-business books and authors he recommends every brand strategist and businessperson reads: , (including ), , and . To learn more about Alan, visit , where you can learn about his agency, read his bio, and see many of his blog posts. Speaking of blogs, you should also check out Alan's blog about brand naming: . You can also follow Alan on .
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Ana Andjelic helps brands design for social influence
11/11/2019
Ana Andjelic helps brands design for social influence
Ana Andjelic is a strategy executive with wide-ranging experience on the agency and client sides. Recent roles include Chief Brand Officer at fashion retailer and SVP, Global Strategy Director at . Past agency experience includes time at Droga5, HUGE, The Barbarian Group, and Razorfish. Ana also has a PhD in sociology and has published about luxury and fashion branding, the experience economy, social influence, content strategy, and more. Her writing has been published in The Guardian, Fast Company, AdAge, Adweek, LeanLuxe, Luxury Daily, Glossy, Campaign, and Form Design Magazine. In 2018, she was listed who "serve as models of a new, emerging and disruptive chief marketer." She's been recognized as one of the "Luxury Women to Watch" by Luxury Daily and one of the top 10 digital strategists by The Guardian. I kicked things off by asking Ana about her PhD-why she chose to pursue it and how it's impacted her career. Then we talked about a term she writes about "social currency." I asked what it means and why it's important. Next, we talked about how she defines "brand experience" and what brands should do to create compelling brand experiences and social influence. Ana says, "These days, the strength of the brand is how successfully it can defy the strength of the algorithm." To do so, she suggests brands must exhibit at least one of her : Community Content Curation Collaborations Throughout the interview, Ana lists quite a few brands she's interested in because they're "trying something new," including , , , (a luxury hotel in Hong Kong), (cycling clothing and accessories), (running gear), (luggage), , and . Wrapping up the conversation, I asked Ana for . She likes (by the authors of ), , and a series called , which she describes as "little booklets [that explore] what iconic brands have done right ... a deep dive into the brand aesthetics, identity, and then the brand expression." She also recommends books in the field of behavioral economics, such as those by , , and . Lastly, Ana offered some advice to young and/or junior people in branding and marketing: "I overall believe that people need to think more. They're too trusting of ideas-they just adopt ideas without critical thinking. Whatever can inspire junior people, or advance their critical thinking ... I would advise that. And then, ... I cannot underscore [enough] the importance of observation and being very aware that one's own perspective is limited. So, that means travel, expose yourself to other cultures, observe how people behave, observe obstacles, how they overcome obstacles in their behavior, and just be very open." To learn more about Ana, visit her or find her on , , , , or .
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Dennis Hahn makes brand culture by Swarming
11/04/2019
Dennis Hahn makes brand culture by Swarming
Dennis Hahn is Chief Strategy Officer at , a brand experience, strategy, marketing, and design agency with offices in San Jose, Portland, and New York. Dennis is responsible for the methodologies Liquid uses to address the strategic challenges of clients like John Deere, HP, Microsoft, Motorola, Nasdaq, PayPal, and Walmart. During the episode, you'll hear us reference a talking about brand experience, in which he says, "To activate your brand, you really first have to understand what the brand stands for. So, understanding the brand's meaning is a vital component of that. Once you've figured that out, then you can use the brand strategy as a filter for thinking about the different dimensions of the experience. And those dimensions can go into different areas, such as the digital experience, or the experience with employees, or the product experience, or even the service." Dennis and I discussed the dimensions of brand experience he mentions in the video, as wells as Liquid's approach to creating a brand experience for clients, which includes a proprietary workshop approach they call "Swarming." Dennis describes Swarms as follows: "Swarming is our workshop methodology, essentially. It's designed to attack a problem from a number of angles and unleashing the power of simultaneous collaboration between agencies and clients. It's really a co-creation model, and that's where we use the design thinking and lean startup principles to guide clients through that co-creation process." We also spent some time talking about a related concept Liquid focuses on these days, brand culture, which Dennis says is "the best possible relationship that a brand can have with its customers and employees." To learn more about Dennis, visit the , where you can find his bio, some blog posts he's written, and more information about the agency and its approach.
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Caren Williams plays creative brain games with clients
10/28/2019
Caren Williams plays creative brain games with clients
Caren Williams and I met in 2012 at Interbrand San Francisco, where she was a Director of Strategy. Caren's since become an independent brand consultant, working with brands like Google, Sunrun, and Sandbox VR. One reason I wanted to talk to Caren is because of her diversity of experience, which includes an MBA from University of Texas, managing brands at consumer packaged goods (CPG) firms like Proctor & Gamble and Nestle, strategy and innovation consulting at a firm called , and, finally, brand consulting. This background gives Caren a unique perspective on brand strategy and brand experience. I asked Caren about the difference between building brands in the CPG space versus corporate and B2B brands. She says that while the fundamental approach is the same, the inputs and outputs are often slightly different. Consumer product brands can require deep consumer research and the resulting strategy can revolve around functional and emotional benefits and "reasons to believe." Corporate brands, on the other hand, may require more internal stakeholder research to get to the "spirit and ethos of the entire company," and some of the strategic positioning pillars might be "almost tagline-y." Next, we talked about brand experience. Caren and I talked through a model we both have experience with, which breaks brand experience into four dimensions: People includes corporate office employees who don't interact with the brand as well as customer-facing people, like retail store employees or drivers for Uber/Lyft. The People category also includes performance reviews, job descriptions, and on-boarding processes. Places (and spaces) means physical places, like stores, lobbies, and conference room names, but also digital spaces like websites, assuming they can be considered "a place you can go. ... [Visitors are] entering into your brand world." Products (and services) are simply "the things that you make and sell." For Google, products include the G Suite, which houses Gmail and Google Drive. Caren says, "If you're trying to bring your brand to life, it's not just how you bring it to life across your advertising and your communications and your messaging. The things that you make and sell need to represent that brand." Communications include anything written or spoken on behalf of the brand. Most marketing and advertising falls into this category, including email marketing, social posts, responses to emails/chats/phone calls, as well as keynote speeches from the CEO and blog posts. Then Caren shares some simple, straightforward tools and exercises (or "creative brain games") you can use with clients to tease out the best ideas for building a brand experience. She recommended an "old school" book called , by Paco Underhill that explains purchasing behavior such as "why we reach for things on the middle shelf versus the lower shelf." (To see another book she recommends, as well as recommendations from many past interviewees, check out the .) To close out, Caren shared some great advice for people just getting into brand consulting. To learn more about Caren-her approach, the services she offers, and her client experience-check out her website at .
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Fabian Geyrhalter builds a brand platform in one very long day
10/21/2019
Fabian Geyrhalter builds a brand platform in one very long day
Fabian Geyrhalter is the principal and founder of , a Los Angeles-based branding agency. Fabian's also a prolific writer; you can find articles he's authored in Forbes, Inc., The Washington Post, Entrepreneur, and Mashable. He's also written two books: , and his latest, . Fabian and I talked about his books, his agency, and the approach he uses with some clients to build out an entire brand platform from scratch in one very long day. We started off talking about his background as a designer and how it contributes to his work. He feels it helps him imagine the strategy coming to life in the real world-visually and verbally-which puts him "a couple of steps ahead." After talking a little about the types of clients FINIEN helps, we got to a unique aspect of Fabian's process: the one-day strategy intensive. Throughout the day, he takes his clients through a series of exercises. As they work, they complete an interactive PDF on screen. At the end of the day, the PDF contains all the key elements of the brand platform: positioning, core values, philosophy, personality, mission, vision, target, and competitors. "I figured, if I worked with startups, they are founders, they are entrepreneurs, they think very much like me; they want to get to the heart of their brands very quickly, and they don't have the time. Usually, literally, they don't have the time. They need to launch in a couple of weeks from now. Doing a couple-of-week exercise to talk about brand purpose, brand philosophy, and positioning is not going to happen with them." - Fabian Geyrhalter Later in his process, he creates the brand's identity along with a variety of touchpoints needed to launch, which he refers to as the "brand atmosphere." Next, we talked about Fabian's new book, Bigger Than This. He was inspired by brands like TOMS, which "are absolutely commodity-type products," yet consumers fall in love with them. He explored this phenomenon further, looking at many similar cases, and distilled eight "commodity brand traits." The book outlines each trait along with an example and some practical recommendations. As usual, we wrapped up the conversation with some and advice for junior people in the industry. To learn more about Fabian, his branding agency, and his books, visit the website. (Also, here's a hint: You can buy his books on , but if you want a signed copy of Bigger Than This, .)
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Ken Pasternak plots impact versus effort
10/14/2019
Ken Pasternak plots impact versus effort
Today's guest is Ken Pasternak, President of , a full service advertising agency based in Chicago. On the episode, however, you'll hear me introduce Ken as President and COO of , a San Francisco-based brand identity and strategy firm he cofounded in 2002. A few months ago, Two by Four Marshall Strategy, so Ken's role changed a bit. We recorded this conversation a little before that happened. Ken leads major positioning, identity, naming, and brand architecture work. He's worked with clients like Apple, Symantec, MTV, Boeing, Sony, and UC Berkeley. I've known Ken since 2007, and through the years we've partnered on quite a few naming and brand architecture projects. It was great to get to talk to an old friend and colleague-who also happens to be a brilliant brand strategist-and hear more about how he thinks about brands and brand experience. We kicked off the conversation talking about Ken's interesting career path, which started out in Budapest. The common thread in his career has been storytelling, which took him from a degree in English literature to producing corporate videos, and eventually to brand strategy. Next, Ken detailed his process for creating a great brand experience, including his definitions of brand and brand experience, and a few simple tools he uses with clients (including plotting potential brand experience touchpoints on a two-by-two with axes of impact versus effort). Toward the end of the conversation, we talked about how Ken feels about Alaska Airlines acquiring Virgin America (hint: not great) and what they'll do to the brand. Then he recommended some and gave his advice for new or junior brand strategists. To learn more about Ken, visit the Two by Four and sites. I highly recommend you check out the Marshall Strategy , too-it's full of insightful, useful articles. Most recently, Ken's partner Philip, who you'll hear him mention during the episode, published about what's changed-and what hasn't-in his over 30 years in the brand identity world.
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Jeremy Miller helps you unlock your team's creative genius
10/07/2019
Jeremy Miller helps you unlock your team's creative genius
Today's guest is Jeremy Miller, author of the bestselling book, , and founder of a strategic branding and business development consultancy with the same name: . One thing that makes Jeremy different from most strategists I've talked to is the way he got into this business: He was working for his family's company, a Toronto-based recruiting firm, when the business started to fail. He diagnosed the problem, recognized the need for a rebrand, and-long story short-he helped turn the company around, and it sold in 2013. In 2015, he published Sticky Branding, in which he shares what he learned from that experience as well as his decade-long study of other companies and how they grow recognizable, memorable brands. Now Jeremy's got a new book, and it's about a topic near and dear to my heart: naming. When I first reached out to Jeremy, I didn't even know about the new book (or I might've had him on , which focused on naming). Jeremy and I covered a lot of ground in our conversation: We talked about brand strategy, brand experience, Sticky Branding, and the new book, . To learn more about Jeremy and both his books, visit or on Amazon. Also check out the , which has over 50,000 members (!).
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Season two wrap-up: Five themes for brand positioning
01/22/2019
Season two wrap-up: Five themes for brand positioning
This past season, I had a great time reconnecting with old peers like , , and , as well as getting to talk to some other branding experts I'd previously only known through their writing and speaking engagements: To all my guests, thank you for joining me on the podcast and sharing your expertise. On today's episode-the last of season two-I share five themes I noticed as I looked back on all nine interviews. These are ideas I felt like I was hearing again and again throughout the season-they're not necessarily the only themes or even the most important ones, but they stuck out to me, and I wanted to share them. Each theme is supported by two or three clips from the interviews, but most came up in other conversations, too. The five themes are: Thinking of brand strategy in terms of questions to be answered [01:51] Prototype, prototype, prototype [04:20] Keep it simple [07:03] The importance of category [09:43] The flexibility of brand frameworks [15:05] Toward the end of the episode [27:25], I play back-to-back clips with interviewees' advice to younger or more junior people in the industry, or anyone looking to get into the industry or become a stronger strategist or branding professional. Don't forget to go back and listen or read transcripts from this season and last on . While you're there, you can find more content on brand positioning as well as a list of this season. Thanks to all of you for listening to the show, and especially to everyone who , , , or on social media. If you haven't done those things, please do-I really appreciate the support, and it helps ensure, eventually, a season three of How Brands Are Built!
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David Aaker got religion on the power of stories
12/10/2018
David Aaker got religion on the power of stories
He's been called "The Father of Modern Branding." If you've ever read anything about branding or brand strategy, my guest today requires no introduction. I'm talking to , author of over and hundreds of articles about marketing and branding, at the , UC Berkeley, and Vice-Chair at , a global marketing and branding consultancy. Given this season is about positioning and brand platforms, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to ask David directly about his , which most people refer to simply as "." We also talked about two of his most recent books, some of his favorite brands, a few books, and his advice for junior people in the branding industry. Aaker on Branding I kicked off the conversation by asking David about one of his latest books, David says he wrote the book because employees at were asking him what they should read and he was tired of saying "these 40 pages in this book...these 80 pages in this book." He wrote Aaker on Branding to "capsulize the main ideas that were in each of those books" into a "Reader's Digest version." Aside from the brand vision model (see below), other big-picture advice in the book includes: "Move from brand competition to subcategory competition if you want to grow." Regarding portfolio strategy, "you have to make [a family of brands] work so they generate synergy and they generate clarity and they generate relevance." Develop a "shared interest program." Tell stories. The brand vision model (the Aaker model) Seven of the principles in Aaker on Branding have to do with what he calls "brand vision," which others (including Prophet) refer to as "brand positioning." David says, "There's a lot of things you can call it...actually, the terminology is not so important. What is important are some fundamental ideas." He created his (originally called the brand identity model) because he was convinced advertising agencies were doing it wrong by attempting to reduce brands to three-word phrases. Brands are multidimensional, so David created a model that allows for any number of elements (some are core, others are extended and "provide extra texture and guidance"). He's also against "fill-in-the-box" models that force strategists to populate a model with ideas that may not be relevant to the brand in question. For example, a product brand won't need organizational values and a B2B corporate brand may not need a brand personality. I asked David what determines whether an idea rises to the level of a brand vision element. According to David, elements should: Differentiate from other brands, Resonate with customers, and Be something you can deliver (either a proof point, which you can already deliver, or a strategic imperative, which is aspirational but attainable). David agreed, however, that not every element has to meet all three of these criteria, although there's "no hard and fast rule." The model consists of 12 elements arranged into four dimensions: Brand as Product, Brand as Organization, Brand as Person (including brand personality), and Brand as Symbol. David clarified that these dimensions are really there to ensure you've thought about every possible way of expressing the brand's identity, rather than requiring the strategist to answer every question or fill in every box. Creating Signature Stories Next, we turned to , David's most recent book. To write the book, David first had to define "what is not a story," given how overused the word has become in branding and marketing today. It's not facts, programs, descriptions, or attributes. He says, "It's a narrative-a once-upon-a-time narrative. It's involving, it's authentic, it's intriguing, and it has some sort of a 'wow' factor. It really jumps out at you. It's something you want to share with others because it's so entertaining, so informative, so relevant. And it has a strategic message." Throughout the conversation, David gives several examples of great signature stories, including -specifically, Becky's story. David's has four high-level pieces of advice for creating signature stories: Believe in the power of stories. "You just have to get religion." Find strong stories. Not just any story will do. Figure out a way to get the stories produced so they're effective. Good presentation is key. Figure out a way to distribute the stories effectively. As to why stories are important for brands, David says, "Stories are just unbelievably powerful. It's astounding ... It turns out that stories get attention. It turns out that stories persuade-they change perceptions. ... They avoid counterargument." And the emotions from stories are transferred to the brand telling them. This is known as "affect transfer." Wrapping up In a handful of wrap-up questions, David shared his appreciation for Dove soap and their Real Beauty campaign and two "elephant books" ( by George Lakoff and by Lou Gerstner. David's advice for junior people looking to get into the branding industry is to take advantage of the fact consultancies and client organizations are "just absolutely terrified about becoming relevant in the digital age." If you're young, he says, take advantage of the fact you understand social media, statistics, or data analysis, and use that knowledge as a way to open the door. To learn more about David, visit . That URL will redirect you to his blog on the Prophet website, where you can also read about his latest books and find links to buy them. You can also follow David on , , or .
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Tim Riches builds bridges held up by brand pillars
12/03/2018
Tim Riches builds bridges held up by brand pillars
Today's guest is , Group Strategy Director at in Melbourne. I met Tim in Singapore, at FutureBrand. When I joined FutureBrand's strategy team in 2011, Tim was running the Singapore office and serving as Chief Growth Officer for all of Asia Pacific. He left shortly after I arrived, but in the few months we overlapped, Tim made a big impression on me. He's a fast-talking, no bullshit, powerhouse thinker who often seems to be offering solutions before anyone else in the room has even fully grasped the problem. I asked Tim about an article he wrote a few months back, titled "," in which he states "branding 101 hasn't changed ... but the shift toward experiences has permanently altered how people assess 'different' and 'better'." He calls out a shift in focus-on the client side-toward a broader definition of "customer experience" that no longer holds marketing or brand as the exclusive "business lens" on the customer relationship. For agencies to maintain relevance going forward, he argues, they must be able to build bridges "between the promise of the brand and the delivery of that promise" by creating actionable principles that experience designers can use to deliver the pillars of a brand. We also talked about brand strategy frameworks and how rigid or flexible they should be. Tim has strong opinions here, which I alluded to briefly in my conversation with . (When I said a friend referred to some frameworks as "parking lots," I was referring to Tim.) Tim's main point is that, in order for concepts like pillars, values, and personality traits to provide any guidance as to how a brand (or organization) should look, feel, or behave, there must be some coherence between them. "I don't see how you can create a cohesive story unless there is some relationship," Tim says. "At least trying to do that helps you show where you have disjoints and incongruities within the thinking." When I asked Tim about books, he justified his own love of sci-fi by claiming "it's good fuel for the imagination, and I do think strategists have to have imagination-not just analytical skills." He also recommended strategists read and at least understand the core concepts of books like Daniel Kahneman's and Byron Sharp's . Wrapping up, I asked Tim for his advice to those just starting their careers in branding. He advised junior people to stay focused on what value looks like for each client rather than getting drawn into an obsession with methodology. He also emphasized the importance of having good "practitioner skills," such as being able to run an interview, present to clients, and design and facilitate workshops. To learn more about Tim and Principals, visit .
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