Making Sense of Chaos
“Making Sense of Chaos” is a podcast where clinicians & listeners share their personal reflections on death, grief and chaos. Hosts Jason and Maddie currently work in the addiction and family violence space. Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos Twitter: @msoc_pod Email: [email protected] Cover art by Ethan Brivik https://www.ebphotography.net.
info_outline
Sic Itur Ad Astra
09/23/2022
Sic Itur Ad Astra
Ceara is a 37-year-old psychologist living with terminal illness. On this episode, Ceara speaks about facing her death, how she finds hope in uncertainty, and why she supports voluntary assisted dying. *Ceara is our first returning guest, and . Instagram: Twitter: Contact Ceara: Twitter: Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/24465225
info_outline
The Psychology of a Child Murderer: A Schema Therapy Lens
05/23/2022
The Psychology of a Child Murderer: A Schema Therapy Lens
Dr Lars Madsen is a forensic psychologist with 20+ years experience in the treatment of sexual and violent offending. On this episode, Lars shares anecdotes and insights from experiences across his career. He also discusses a case where he provided psychological assessment & treatment to a child sex murderer, using Forensic Schema Therapy. Instagram: Twitter: TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content. Supports: - 13 11 14 - 1800 737 732 Work by Lars: Article - Upcoming Talk: Lars’ (6-week interactive self-paced online course that introduces therapists to Forensic Schema Therapy (ST-F))
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/23179655
info_outline
Hard Cuddles
04/19/2022
Hard Cuddles
James Harding had his own experiences in the criminal justice system. Now he’s a counsellor, and uses his experience to help criminals change their story. [Episode hosted by Maddie]. Instagram: Twitter: SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 78 99 78 _____ An innovative mental health service that specialises in counselling, forensic counselling, mentoring and peer support facilitated in an outdoor environment.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22809437
info_outline
Escaping the Diagnosis Trap
03/28/2022
Escaping the Diagnosis Trap
In this episode we talk to on the consequences of medicalising psychological suffering into “mental disorders”. Ray is an independent trainer, speaker and writer, and a long-standing critic of the western diagnostic model of psychiatry. He is a lead trainer in the - a radically different approach to psychological suffering, which abandons diagnoses altogether, and offers an alternative to seeing oneself as "disordered" or "mentally ill". In this episode, Ray shares how his own experiences as a psychiatric patient in the 1990s led to his current work. Instagram: Twitter: TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content. SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 _____________________________ About Dr Ray Middleton: Dr Ray Middleton is an independent trainer in strengths based non-diagnostic approaches to distress, including Trauma Informed Practice and the Power Threat Meaning Framework approach. Ray has a PhD on dialogical/narrative approaches to complex trauma and recently authored a book on innovative trauma informed approaches to people who are homeless. Previously, Ray has set up and managed personality disorder services, been a senior care co-coordinator in an early intervention in psychosis service and systemic practitioner within systemic family therapy. For training enquiries: - Contact Ray at or via his website;
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22598237
info_outline
Close Call
03/17/2022
Close Call
Jess has a background in psychology and criminology, and works in the reintegration space with long term & serious offenders. Jess chats with Jason about the different perspectives of grief, and why we are who we are. *Apologies for the audio quality in this episode - we appreciate your understanding as we work to improve for future episodes :) Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22431500
info_outline
A Moment in Time
03/13/2022
A Moment in Time
In this episode, hosts Jason & Maddie reflect on Brock's episode, sharing their personal reflections on suicide, loneliness and fear. Instagram: WARNING: This episode does contain heavy & potentially triggering content. SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 845 745
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22431269
info_outline
Everything Happens for a Reason
03/06/2022
Everything Happens for a Reason
8 years on from his footy career, Brock McLean opens up about his battles off the field - bulimia, depression, anxiety and attempts at ending his life. TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content. Instagram: SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 845 745 - 1300 78 99 78
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22353422
info_outline
Living with Passion
02/17/2022
Living with Passion
Emmy van Deurzen is one of the world’s most respected existential psychologists. This is a raw and intimate episode, where Emmy talks about death, love and how she makes meaning of life. Also discussed is society’s obsession with ‘being happy’, the medicalisation of human misery and the need to get to know our darker sides. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22173815
info_outline
The Calm & The Storm
02/13/2022
The Calm & The Storm
William Wainwright is a forensic psychologist with over 20 years experience in various settings, with a particular focus on sexual and violent offending. In this episode, we discuss the psychology behind sexually abusing a child, how offenders justify breaking moral standards, and the cycle of shame involved in repeat offending. We also discuss the trauma carried by emergency service workers, and how this is identified and treated within Vic Police. Jason shares some of his personal experiences of trauma working as a police officer, and later as a correctional officer in Parkville Youth Justice Centre. Instagram: _____________ About William: William has acted as a court expert on numerous occasions and consulted and trained many audiences, including the police, judges, lawyers, DHHS workers, child protection workers, correction officers and prison officers. In recent years, William has worked as the Senior Psychologist for the Police Psychology Unit and Family Violence Command, and was the key investigator of the 2016 Mental Health Reviews for the wellbeing of Victoria Police officers. William also trained officers in investigating and interviewing people accused of sexual offences. William was also the president of ANZATSA, a not-for-profit organization designed to support practitioners working with sexually harmful behaviours both in the mainstream populations and disability. He has organized multiple local and international conferences as well as presenting regularly. Currently, William is the Manager of Evidence Based Programs for OzChild, a not for profit organisation that works with best practice programs to strengthen and reunify families. These programs are designed to maintain family networks to offer children safety and security. William is a registered supervisor and has supervised forensic and non-forensic psychologists. He currently runs a peer supervision program for provisional and registered psychologist to develop their practices and skills.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/22111184
info_outline
This Too Shall Pass (Part 2)
02/01/2022
This Too Shall Pass (Part 2)
Part 2: We discuss with Noah Rasheta the notion of impermanence; that uncertainty is the only constant in life. We also discuss suicide, interdependence, doubt and the nature of introspection. Noah Rasheta is a Buddhist teacher, lay minister, and author, as well as the host of the podcast Instagram: TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content. SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 845 745
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/21973808
info_outline
This Too Shall Pass (Part 1)
01/31/2022
This Too Shall Pass (Part 1)
Noah Rasheta is a Buddhist teacher, lay minister, and author, as well as the host of the . In this episode, Noah talks about how Buddhism changed his relationship with suffering, including the way he processed his dad’s death. We also discussed the darker side of our need to be liked, to belong and to stay busy. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/21959786
info_outline
Intimacy from Risky Conversations
10/16/2021
Intimacy from Risky Conversations
Paros (29) shares his story of living through his dad's terminal illness, from ages 17-20. Paros is director of Lost Motos, a NFP and community that focuses on facilitating a safe forum for men needing honest dialogue around mental health. SUPPORTS - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 845 745 - 1300 78 99 78 Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/20839457
info_outline
The Ability to Adapt
06/28/2021
The Ability to Adapt
Dylan (26) and Jordan (24) lost their dad, Bentley, to bowel cancer 6 months ago. They’re also the founders of a brilliantly named YouTube series, “”, where they speak about the challenges of living with a family member with cancer. Dylan and Jordan are Maddie’s friends from high school, and in this episode, they sit down with her to talk about life since losing their dad. to Bowel Cancer Support, Awareness & Research. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/19612601
info_outline
Waiting to Live
06/19/2021
Waiting to Live
Kate’s story is not grief due to a death, but due to the long-term incarceration of her brother overseas on a drug conviction. She describes the uncomfortable feelings of shame, guilt and compassion fatigue, and provides insight into the roles we undertake when others are suffering - including the complexities of holding anger, loss and hope simultaneously. Instagram: *To protect privacy, we have used the pseudonyms of Kate and Matt.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/19533041
info_outline
Two Friends Ready to Die (Part 2)
05/25/2021
Two Friends Ready to Die (Part 2)
Part 2: A personal episode with hosts Maddie and Jason. Discussion on regrets, fear of loved ones dying and last conversations. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/19191749
info_outline
Two Friends Ready to Die (Part 1)
05/21/2021
Two Friends Ready to Die (Part 1)
A personal episode with hosts Maddie and Jason. Discussion on regrets, fear of loved ones dying and last conversations. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/19191359
info_outline
Unedited
04/03/2021
Unedited
Host Jason on how he is trying to accept that everything comes to an end… how this brings him an overwhelming sense of isolation, despair and loss of control, but also a deeper level of freedom; knowing that every moment is a unique, temporary moment in time that will never occur again. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/18589292
info_outline
Contemplations on Purposelessness
03/24/2021
Contemplations on Purposelessness
Host Jason on his own feelings of purposelessness… Let us know your thoughts by inboxing us at or (we may share with your permission). Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/18448505
info_outline
Happiness: The Enemy of Meaning?
03/21/2021
Happiness: The Enemy of Meaning?
Ittay, a Jewish educator & journalist, speaks to Maddie about finding meaning and purpose, and why he doesn’t want his kids "to just be happy". He also speaks about his journey following his father’s death from cancer when he was 21, and how reading the book “” prompted a change in the way he related to death. Instagram Follow Ittay's journalism and peacework & Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/18406199
info_outline
Set in Stone
02/13/2021
Set in Stone
Michael, aged 23, is currently in palliative care for treatment of brain cancer. He is also training to become a nurse, and also volunteers as a first aider with Ambulance Victoria, St John Ambulance & State Emergency Service. In this episode, Michael tells us his story. Michael's TikTok: @michaelarkalis Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/17935109
info_outline
Untimely Death
12/16/2020
Untimely Death
Chloe, a 23-year-old aspiring school counsellor, speaks about the sudden loss of her dad 3 years ago - and the flood of different emotions that have followed. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/17201543
info_outline
Get to Know Your Hosts [Pt 2]
12/07/2020
Get to Know Your Hosts [Pt 2]
Two friends having a chat about death, connection and existence. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/17070662
info_outline
The Trauma Cleaner
12/04/2020
The Trauma Cleaner
Sandra Pankhurst is the woman behind the biography, ‘’. Sandra’s job as a trauma cleaner has led her into dark homes where death, sickness and madness have suddenly abbreviated the lives inside. She is called on to deal with diverse trauma clean-ups, from unattended deaths and suicides, to cases of long-term property neglect where homes have, in her words, “fallen into disrepute”. Most people are surprised to learn that the police, firefighters or ambulances do not do trauma clean-up - that is why Sandra’s work is varied and so often includes crime scenes, floods and fires. Sandra is also a transgender woman who was adopted into an abusive family and forced to live a malnourished life in a backyard shed. On this episode, Sandra gives us a glimpse of her story. Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/17045867
info_outline
A Slowly Drifting Iceberg
11/26/2020
A Slowly Drifting Iceberg
“I've worked in advertising for 35-years. All while suffering from Bipolar 1. So I know what it’s like to perform brilliantly in a boardroom one moment, only to find myself crying quietly in a toilet cubicle the next.” On this episode, we speak to David Westgate about living with Bipolar 1, as well as some small talk topics such as the ultimate meaning and purpose of life. Instagram: SUPPORTS: - 13 11 14 - 1300 78 99 78 DAVID’S WORK: David is a keynote speaker for the Black Dog Institute. He’s also served on their Lived Experience Advisory Panel and on a mental health advisory board for Australia's biggest insurer, TAL, and as a qualified Mental Health First Aid facilitator. Additionally, David has worked with groups as diverse as the Sudanese community, the Friends and Families of Missing People Unit, Department of Communications and Culture, Metlife, the Treasury, and even a club who had lost a member to suicide.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/16964048
info_outline
Healing From Murder
11/08/2020
Healing From Murder
Tarang lost his sister Nikita when she was murdered at the age of 23. Tarang Chawla unpacks how he goes about healing from this life-changing event and the way it’s changed who he is today and who he hopes to become. A respected voice in the campaign to end violence against women, Tarang tells stories from his childhood and shares the pain of loss that underpins his advocacy work, including what he’s learnt along the way. Instagram: SUPPORTS: (1800 737 732) : 1300 766 491 13 11 14
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/16679663
info_outline
Second Life
11/04/2020
Second Life
At the age of 24, Natarsha suddenly lost her husband Steve to unknown circumstances. Natarsha is Jason’s friend from primary school, and in this very raw episode, she bravely shares her story from the 22nd March 2016. Instagram: SUPPORTS: - 13 11 14 - 1300 22 4636 - 1300 845 745
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/16679063
info_outline
Touching the Void
10/23/2020
Touching the Void
After nearly losing his life to ice & cocaine addiction, Ben now supports others struggling with drug & alcohol dependency. In this very moving episode, Ben walks us through his 17 years of active addiction. Instagram: Connect with Ben: Ben is the founder of , an organisation which aims to empower, motivate and educate individuals, families and communities, to gain a stronger awareness of the effects of drug and alcohol use. Ben also produces the , a radio show on J-AIR 87.8FM every Tuesday night at six, where he speaks about his incredible journey of hope, inspiration and self-discovery, from drug addiction to saving lives to helping families reconnect.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/16515509
info_outline
What's Love Got to Do with It?
10/12/2020
What's Love Got to Do with It?
Dr Russ Pratt has over 25 years experience working with sexual offenders and murderers. One of Australia's most respected forensic psychologists, Russ talks to us about the psychology of sexual assault and murder, and the impact of pornography on sexually abusive youth. Website: Instagram:
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/16361195
info_outline
The Edge
08/26/2020
The Edge
After years of mental anguish and suicidal intent, Sam Fewings gradually came to realise he wanted to live. In this very moving episode, Sam tells us his story.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/15770285
info_outline
The Bluest Sky
08/23/2020
The Bluest Sky
As soon as she attempted to take her own life in 2005, Peta Dampney knew she wanted to live. In this very raw episode, Peta tells us her story.
/episode/index/show/makingsenseofchaos/id/15717437