Men of Steel

From a Certain Point of View, Case Aiken and JMike Folson discuss Superman in all of his incarnations and homages. For people who love the Man of Steel and want to think critically about what the character represents.

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Episode 119 - The Optimal Optimus 01/31/2024

Episode 119 - The Optimal Optimus Some Men of Steel are actually MONKEY! Case and Jmike are joined by Derek Van Dyke to talk about what is undoubtedly the "Optimal Optimus" (as well as "Code of Hero" because we are not monsters). Transcript (Subject to error) 00:00 Case Aiken Season one has a couple, like, events that feel like this should be the season finale. Like the floating island one. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, no, we're just gonna keep going. 00:07 Derek Van Dyke Season one just did a lot of great, like, mini story arcs leading up to. Yeah. Watching Beast wars, like, out of order on syndication, over the air was. 00:17 Jmike Folson Yeah, that would have messed with you. 00:18 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, because it's like every other week there's some season finale, and you're like, what is happening? 00:40 Case Aiken Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I am an optimal case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my rat trap, J. Mike Falson. 00:51 Jmike Folson I gotta be rat trap, though. Why couldn't it be Cheetor? 00:53 Case Aiken Oh. 00:54 Jmike Folson Anyway, hey, welcome back, everybody. 00:55 Case Aiken I mean, honestly, you're probably the rhinox of the team. 01:01 Derek Van Dyke A higher compliment you cannot give. 01:05 Case Aiken Well, and there's the peacemaker right there. So that's the tiger Tron, Derek Van. 01:09 Derek Van Dyke Dyke, although I do not have nearly as deep and dulcite of tones as Tigatron's voice actor. 01:16 Case Aiken What's his name? Blue Mankuma. 01:18 Derek Van Dyke Beautiful, beautiful voice. 01:20 Case Aiken An incredible voice. So we're not going to mince words here. I tried to do a bit and it didn't quite work. But you know what? We're going to maximize this effort here. Today we're talking about maximize Transformers, Beast wars, and specifically, we're going to talk about Optimus Primal and how I would argue that he is a Superman analog. And before we started recording, Derek and I were talking about how probably of any Transformers character, especially any Beast wars character, Optimus prime is the best example of a Superman type character in the series. 01:50 Derek Van Dyke And that also, I think that primal specifically is probably the best version of Optimus to make that analog with in terms of the ways that Primal is a unique character from G, one Optimus, or, like, prime or Energon or any of those other versions of Optimus Primal, very much stands out in that regard to me. 02:11 Case Aiken Yeah. I mean, so much so that in the episode victory, there is a direct, like, it's a bird, it's a plane. It's exactly. I mean, we're all 90s babies here. This seemed kind of like an appropriate little session of just, like, nostalgia and looking at a thing that definitely, even if the metaphor is forced, it is the heroic archetype that we try to talk about on this piece, where a character has the power of action and does his or her best to make the world a better place, regardless of threats and regardless of the ability to do more in a way that would be harmful to others and trying to avoid those types of situations. So we picked out a bunch of episodes from the first season to really focus on for this. But we'll talk about the series as a whole. 02:56 Case Aiken We'll talk about some of the other characters. We're obviously going to talk about code of Hero because we're not monsters on this podcast. And that has to be discussed if we're talking about beast wars. But we are going to try to frame the conversation mostly about Optimus Primal, who is just goddamn awesome. And I think a good place to start, then, before we actually get into the episodes, is just how Optimus Primal is not Optimus prime. They're very similar characters. They are obviously both the leader types for the group. But for one thing, Optimus Primal isn't just the biggest fucking dude in the room. 03:28 Jmike Folson Always. 03:30 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, he's interestingly, like, perfect middle size. Rhinox and Dinobot are bigger than, like, several characters. Outsize him in stature, so he's not the big guy of the team like Optimus traditionally is. 03:45 Case Aiken Right? I mean, Skyfire aside, or Omega supreme or any of the other really weird ones out there, Optimus prime was always sort of positioned as being the biggest one. And some of that is japanese toy convention of having the leader types always be the biggest action figure, which is true for the Optimus primal gorilla figure. Although of course, for those of us from the 90s who remember when the Beast wars toys first came out, Optimus Primal was a bat. 04:09 Derek Van Dyke Oh God. That's right. I forgot that the first toy was a bat. Wow. 04:15 Case Aiken Yeah. And Megatron was a crocodile. 04:17 Derek Van Dyke I don't think I ever saw the megatron crocodile. 04:20 Case Aiken Yeah, well, and then they got phased out and they put out. Right, right. 04:23 Derek Van Dyke And then we got the ones that. 04:24 Case Aiken Are the monkey nut truck version of Optimus. While the figure was the biggest. There's a little bit of a weirdness when you look at Rhinox. Like, depending on the shot, rhinox is clearly bigger in beast form, but sometimes a little bigger. A little. Maybe not quite as tall, but wider in terms of sizing. It's still early. 04:40 Derek Van Dyke They don't always make him, like, way taller than everyone else. Rhinox is the big guy because he's also just wide and stock. He's built like a linebacker. 04:49 Case Aiken Yeah. Meanwhile, Dinobot is definitely the tallest of at least the season one maximals, and just is one of the biggest of the show, just generally speaking, which continues to be useful for him even when he does not get some of the upgrades that the others do. But yeah, no, Optimus, he's not the biggest one in the room. He is pretty tough, and he is actually pretty capable. One of the big differences that they make in Beast wars versus g one transformers is that they can't all fly explicitly whatever the hell was going on in the more than meets the eye pilot. And then in later episodes where it's like, oh, I guess we forgot how to fly. Optimus Primal is the unique one on the early team. He's the flyer for the group to. 05:27 Derek Van Dyke The point that's a huge advantage for the enemy team, the predacons, because they have multiple flyers, and we've just got Optimus on the good guy's side. And since he's also the commander, it's risky to have him flying around on basic scout duty. 05:42 Case Aiken Right. Scouting, you would think, would go to the flyer. He's also not the heaviest heavy, but he's a heavy on the team. They make a very big point early in the pilot of, like, in terms of COVID fire, Optimus can move faster to a location, but he's also going to be a better person to lay down suppressing fire in a situation. You kind of need him to be able to move into those spots. And so what that means is that Optimus primal in Beast wars is a generalist for the majority of the show. Yeah. 06:09 Jmike Folson Mid tier character. 06:10 Case Aiken That's a niche that a Superman type often falls into when they actually scale the power levels accordingly for a team, as opposed to having the big fluctuations of a full on Superman in the group. Because Optimus is durable as hell. He's strong as hell. He can fly, and he's got firepower, but he's not necessarily the top for any of them. He's the red mage on the team, which, if you're seeing everyone as having stats that get spread out and some people focus on some, the Superman type is going to be. Yeah, fast, strong, durable, good up close. 06:39 Derek Van Dyke Good from afar, good at thinking out a plan while not necessarily being, like, the master tactician. Like you said, a little bit of everything. 06:46 Jmike Folson Yeah, I thought that was because this iteration, like, when the first episode, they clearly say they're explorers. 06:52 Case Aiken Yes. 06:52 Jmike Folson So I was like, okay, they're not, like, beefy types that we're used to seeing. So I thought that kind of got explained away right there. I was like, okay, they're just doing their thing, and this optimist is just like, copernicus, Galileo. 07:03 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, well, and that's kind of a good point too, that this optimist is not a definitive military leader with a ton of experience. This is a scientist and a man of peace, and he has doubts. I think that, like, g one Optimus, who was really the only other version of Optimus that existed at the time that beast wars came out, right? 07:27 Case Aiken I think, yeah, I mean, there's g two Optimus toys and comics, but there hadn't really been, like, a mainstream transformers. 07:34 Jmike Folson I remember Megatron saying throughout these episodes is that at this point in the Transformers timeline, the Autobots had won the war. The Autobots had won the war. And the predicons, decepticons were underneath them. Now, I don't know how that figured out and everything else. 07:49 Case Aiken Well, it's a weird part, and I'll go into it, because I watched these to death back when I actually got them dvd. I watched these back in the day. Initially, I taped these off of vcrs and rewatched it, but I bought the dvds and I listened to the commentary tracks a ton. So I have some input from that which I did not get a chance to re listen to. So I'm only going touch on it a little bit. It's a weird series of a show in that it is technically in continuity with the original Transformers show in a way that is different from all the other transformers stuff that has come since. There has been a ton of Transformers material of all types, including additional versions of Beast wars characters and so forth. 08:23 Case Aiken What we're saying, though, is at the time when this came out, there was Peter Cullen as Optimus prime, and now we're getting Gary Chalk as Optimus Primal and setting those two up as different characters. 08:35 Derek Van Dyke Yes, and spoilers for a late 90s animated series. But it's both a sequel and prequel to the original transformers as opposed to a reimagining. And I just think that's also so interesting because to me, gen one Optimus is not a lot of a character. He's cool, right? But because it's Peter Cullen, and he just has some raw lines to lay down. But to me, it's the more dynamic personality of primal, of being somebody who does have doubts, being somebody who does fail more, somebody who is a boy scout, but also kind of aware of the ways that holds them back sometimes and has to struggle with that, I think makes him a more interesting character for actually engaging with the question of what it means to be a leader. 09:26 Case Aiken What it means to be a hero. 09:28 Derek Van Dyke Even sometimes, if you don't want to be, but just because you're the one. 09:32 Case Aiken Who is best able to be, right? I mean, he was the leader of a scientific exploration vessel and all of a sudden had to do a police action against war criminals. And it's stuck in this situation where in a Dino riders style pilot sequence, they transport back in time and crash land on ancient Earth and have to contend with weird histories and all that. I think this also goes for the fact that the supporting cast is so strong. And part of that is that this is a mid to late 90s CGI cartoon wherein they couldn't have that many characters. Like the original Transformers had, like, a fuck ton of characters, especially, oh, my God, we can't keep track of. And on purpose, like, to the point where they just start introducing characters. They don't need to be like, oh, here's the new guy. 10:16 Case Aiken It's just like, this guy's always been here, right? Like, you know, Perceptor, the microscope guy. You know him, right? He's been in all these episodes somewhere. 10:25 Derek Van Dyke He was just off screen. 10:26 Case Aiken Yeah, no, he was down in the science lab doing science stuff. And this episode has science stuff. So here's Perceptor. You know the guy. And so with Beast wars, the show had a very small roster. It's five characters on each side initially, where they make up for the fact that they don't have the virtue of Transformers properties in general, which is that you like the ones that you think is cool, and then you have so many that everyone's going to find one that they think is cool, and you keep going. In this case, they had to be like, here's the distinct personalities for the five that we can animate on each side. 11:00 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, here's the personalities they have. Here are the skills that they have, how all of this stuff informs each other, and then how those characters have to change over the course of the episodes. Because Beast wars is really good about having characters start at one place and then have to change and grow, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, as events affect them and stick with them in a way that was kind of rare for a lot of animation of the time. You have a lot of these animated shows of the time, and especially the original Transformers. Right? Where the point was, like, we have our episode plot of the week, and at the end, everything's going to go back to the status quo, right? And Beast wars really threw that out. 11:42 Case Aiken The window, for one thing. We have such dynamic supporting cast members like Rattrap and Dinobot on the hero side, where Rattrap is insubordinate, a coward, super competent, and a prick. Like, it's great, that whole combination right there. And then you have Dinobot, who was a reformed bad guy, and anyone who knows me knows that I am a sucker for reformed bad guy. No, like, Anubis is my favorite character on Ronan Warriors, Dinobot is one of my favorite characters. Piccolo is my favorite dragon Ball Z character. The honorable bad guy who realized the errors of his way and has reformed in ways that are logically consistent and not just because we needed a heel face turn for the sake of the plot, is so fucking good. And Dinobot is that. 12:31 Case Aiken And again, we're going to talk about code of hero, because we have to talk about code of hero. It's so goddamn good. But that means that right from the get go, we've got people who are arguing against Optimus Primal. Rattrap, who is on his team, who was part of his crew, asks him if he's up to the task constantly because the mission is different. First episode all the time. Like, Rattrap refuses a direct order, and so Optimus Primal has to put himself in danger. And then later is like, here is why I did this thing. Here's why I explained it this way, and I asked you to do it because it made more sense that way. And instead, we did it this way, and now we're hurt, and we're not in a good position where we can actually easily fix ourselves. Things are bad. 13:13 Case Aiken And then Ratchup still is giving him shit. It's not like a one time, and then it's fine. Every single time afterwards, he's giving him crap until eventually he finally learns to trust him. 13:23 Jmike Folson Optimus had to tell him early on. He's like, I'm not going to put you in positions and things that I wouldn't do myself, so you're going to have to trust me. And Raptrap's like, man, whatever. 13:34 Case Aiken Sure, Optimus. And that's such a good line. 13:37 Derek Van Dyke Better you than me. 13:39 Case Aiken That honestly has stuck with me in terms of my management style so much more, probably more than it's, like, healthy in some regards, where I'll throw myself out there to work on a project where I'm like, I probably should have been focusing on the macro. There have been plenty of times where it's like, oh, yeah, this project that needed to be done by the end of the month. I'm now cramming to finish because were in the weeds about something else somewhere earlier in the month kind of thing. But I think that's such a great aspect of his character. He is completely prepared to lead from the front, to take the hits, to do all that, even if he sees the best way to do it is this. And that's the plan I'm going to go with. 14:13 Case Aiken But when something doesn't work, when circumstances change, he'll get out there. There's no problem with that. And it's not for glory. It's not for honor. It's not for anything like that. This is the best plan. And does it make the most sense for me to be there? Yes. No. But it's never out of cowardice. It's never even self preservation from the standpoint of, like, well, I'm the commander. I have to survive so I can keep making new plans. Like, when the plan fails to make a new plan type character. No, he's not that. He just is aware that he's also pretty well equipped to do a bunch of different jobs because he's the red mage on the right. Yeah. 14:47 Derek Van Dyke And especially bringing up rat Trap and the way that rat trap kind of does not respect Optimus's authority at first. 14:55 Case Aiken Can we just pause before we go further on a discussion of rat Trap? And let's just say for anyone who has not watched the show, rat Trap is Rocket Raccoon. 15:03 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, I mean, that's a great point of comparison for modern audiences, like, to. 15:08 Case Aiken The point where I'm wondering if when they kind of rebooted rocket raccoon to be the character that he is in the comics, if they were looking at, like, they're that close. Yeah, we're all going to die, right? That's his catchphrase. We're all going to die. 15:22 Derek Van Dyke God, Scott McNeil is just so good as half the cast of this show. Yeah, but, like Rattrap, it's a great example of. One of the most powerful aspects of Optimus Primal, to me, is the effect that he has on the rest of the cast. Rat Trap is somebody who starts off as very cowardly, very insubordinate, and obviously, he's always going to be the team loudmouth and the team cynic. But over the course of especially that first season, you really watch rat trap, like, one step at a time. Have to learn from Optimus's example and from Cheetor some. But in that case, it's still indirectly Optimus, because Cheetor adores Optimus and is trying to do everything he can to mirror that behavior, sometimes to overly enthusiastic. 16:12 Derek Van Dyke But, like, it's that drags rat trap into being more of a team player, being more heroic, putting himself at risk more when he's the best person for a job you can watch over the course of that first season, how much he changes. And that's entirely Optimus's influence as a leader. 16:33 Case Aiken Yeah, that's the best part about Optimus, which is that the team becomes better because of his presence there. He inspires people to better, which is exactly the kind of thing we talk about on this show and why the archetype of, like, a hero who is doing their best is important. 16:51 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, it's not enough to be the leader and be like the jack of all trades. You also have to be a little bit the Paladin. Right? Like, you have to be somebody who, it's not just the actions that you take, but how you empower the people around you to better, to teach young and impressionable Cheetor to think a little bit more ahead, to teach rat trap to be kind of braver, to be an example for Dinobot to clash against. Right. Which is so fascinating because Dinobot never fully takes on Optimus's ideals. But I think especially by code of Hero, we'll get to it. You do see how much he has learned by his time with the maximals. 17:33 Case Aiken Why don't we actually dig into the episodes that we wanted to talk about? The ones that we highlighted specifically were the two part pilot BSors, episode ten, guerrilla warfare episode twelve, victory episode 24 before the storm, which is really just the first part of the three part finale, and then the two part finale of season one, which is other voices, and then Code of hero, because again, we're not monsters here. Yeah. So talking about beast wars, the Pilot, I emailed you guys when I was watching it because right from the... /episode/index/show/menofsteel/id/29727818