Reimagining Justice
Welcome to Reimagining Justice - a global podcast for the change makers in law and the first Australian-based podcast shining a light on issues at the intersection of law, social justice and innovation. Join Andrea Perry-Petersen, an Australian lawyer and social justice advocate, as she interviews guests from around the world who have discovered and implemented innovative ways to update the legal profession while improving people’s experience of the law. Andrea brings a unique perspective on stories which will inspire you to take positive action in the delivery of legal services for the benefit of lawyers, clients and society. The world is changing, and the legal profession must keep up. Legal systems around the world are not meeting people’s legal needs – there is a global access to justice crisis. What are the solutions and where can they be found? Whether you are a legal business owner or legalpreneur wanting to expand your market, run a purpose driven business or improve your service delivery model; a legal professional or law student curious about a career in social justice or legal tech (or both!); interested in systems design or proven ways to make positive social change, or simply looking to be inspired, then this is the podcast for you!
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A national strategy for civil justice: Going beyond the known
11/17/2022
A national strategy for civil justice: Going beyond the known
In episode no. 90, my guest is Bridgette Toy-Cronin, Director, Civil Justice Centre, Co-Director, Otago Centre for Law and Society and Senior Lecturer, Faculty of Law, University of Otago. We cover: The access to justice issues in Aotearoa New Zealand; Key aims of the ‘Wayfinding for civil justice’ project; How the project commenced at the start of the pandemic with a hui; The other jurisdictions the working group looked to for guidance on this project; How the project is doing two related but different things at the same time; Factors peculiar to Aotearoa New Zealand that are facilitating the entire process; The diversity of the working group, and which organisations have made submissions to the consultation process; Early findings about what will assist going forward; Funding sources for this stakeholder-led strategy, and for the recommendations; Gaps that have been identified through this work; Different approaches to legal innovation in Aotearoa New Zealand; The intersection of customary Māori law and the mainstream justice system; How Māori principles are influencing procedure including process in the District Court, mediation and dispute resolution; How ‘innovation’ and ‘technology’ are often conflated; and Bridgette’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota! Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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From startup to acquisition – one family lawyer's journey of innovation
10/26/2022
From startup to acquisition – one family lawyer's journey of innovation
In episode no. 89 my guest is Fiona Kirkman, CEO and co-founder of FamilyProperty. We cover: The functionality of expert system FamilyProperty that Fiona and her co-founder (husband!) Tim developed; The journey of FamilyProperty from an idea to MVP, to market, to acquisition; The integration of FamilyProperty with global practice management software, Smokeball bringing the ‘business of law’ together with effective delivery of legal advice; How technology is always changing and the need for ongoing maintenance (especially when court forms change!); The importance of beta testing and accurate data mapping; Benefits of this use of technology for lawyers and clients; What it is about the people that adopt these new methodologies and the organisations in which they work, including their size and what that means for change management; The impact of the pandemic on the legal industry; Where you fit on ‘the innovative scale’; The importance of understanding users’ pain points and how technology can assist with that, as well as empower the professionals to do more of the ‘human work’; Plans for scaling and expansion of FamilyProperty in the USA; Unexpected uses of the financial aspects of FamilyProperty and a model that Legal Aid is piloting; Constraints that Fiona and Tim have come up against recently; The importance of confidentiality and cybersecurity; Fiona’s 3 passions and how they relate to her numerous roles; What lawyers will need to be effective mediators in the future; What is the ‘resolution revolution’?; The importance of collaborative practice and multidisciplinary input; When Fiona became comfortable with being labelled an ‘innovator’; What she is most proud of along the journey of both joys and challenges; How technology is an enabler of access to justice; and Fiona’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic! Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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A tale of two law firms: how a global commercial practice supports a local not-for-profit service
10/11/2022
A tale of two law firms: how a global commercial practice supports a local not-for-profit service
In episode no. 88, my guest is Nicolas Patrick, Partner, Head of Responsible Business, DLA Piper. We cover: Nic’s views on the potential of technology; The reason for DLA Piper holding a forum on technology and access to justice in 2019; The problem with digitising existing processes; Why an international law firm without family law expertise, supports a Sydney based non-profit family law firm; The way Wallumatta Legal operates and how it runs an efficient practice; How pro bono provides insight into areas of unmet legal need; The different contributions that Macquarie University and DLA Piper bring to Wallumatta Legal; What technology is used for at Wallumatta Legal and the software it relies upon; Why Nic isn’t concerned about the digital divide in the context of Wallumatta Legal given all its services are delivered online; How Wallumatta Legal will improve access to justice across the sector; Why they recruit a ‘different kind of lawyer’ at Wallumatta Legal; The biggest challenge in the first six months of the firm’s operations; Plans for scaling and expansion of this model into other jurisdictions and areas of law; Why Nic thinks that there aren’t more low bono or alternative models servicing the needs of people at the lower end of the legal market; The potential for regulatory reform to facilitate technology use and other models to improve justice outcomes for marginalised people; The opportunity for firms to collaborate and establish a network of low bono and not-for-profit law firms; and Nic’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic! Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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“Show me the money!” Funding for justice innovation
09/26/2022
“Show me the money!” Funding for justice innovation
This is the third episode in a 3-part series about justice entrepreneurship. Part 1 provides an overview of justice entrepreneurship - 3 categories of justice entrepreneurship with real examples from each of the categories and the problem solved. Part 2 covers 5 key factors to maximise the likelihood of success of your justice innovation. You might be surprised to hear about some of them! And now in part 3, we look at funding options and some of their pro’s and con’s. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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How this software company provides practical assistance to marginalised communities
09/13/2022
How this software company provides practical assistance to marginalised communities
In episode no. 86 I had the pleasure of speaking with John Lord, Co-founder and Chairman of long term sponsor of the podcast, Neota (formerly Neota Logic). We discuss: What John wants the world to know about no-code and why; Some unintended consequences of no-code including hybrid working models; How no-code supports the democratisation of information in both commercial and public interest contexts; The areas of law that are suited to apps, what can be built, and how they help; The scope of opportunity for legal technology both in terms of market and career choices; The genesis of the university program that Neota now operates in 18 universities around the world and its involvement with pro bono; Outcomes from university ‘Law Apps’ courses including an example of how Neota’s technology resulted in homes being repaired in a remote Aboriginal community; How an app assists people to have criminal records expunged in the United States; The meaning and relevance of the name ‘Neota’; and John’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic! Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Effective justice entrepreneurship: 5 keys for success
08/26/2022
Effective justice entrepreneurship: 5 keys for success
This is the second episode in a 3-part series about justice entrepreneurship. Episode 3 was an overview of justice entrepreneurship - the types of issues justice entrepreneurs work on, the 3 categories of justice entrepreneurship with real examples from each of the categories. This episode covers 5 key factors to maximise the likelihood of success of your justice innovation. You might be surprised to hear about some of them! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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If you can’t legislate, innovate with Jazz Hampton
08/09/2022
If you can’t legislate, innovate with Jazz Hampton
In episode no. 83 I speak with Co-founder, CEO and General Counsel of Turnsignl, Jazz Hampton. We discuss: The problem that prompted the creation of TurnSignl and how Jazz and his co-founders knew it was the right time to act; The professional backgrounds of the three black founders; What Turnsigl does and how it works to protect civil rights at scale; How Turnsignl gets to the people who need it (it’s an interesting approach); The product’s similarity to roadside assistance programs or an insurance policy; Turnsignl’s partners across different sectors; Why Jazz describes the users as the ‘3 P’s’; How to know if Turnsignl is working; Power imbalances that exist in civil and criminal law contexts; How Jazz considers Turnsingl provides mental health support; Turnsignl’s technology resources and funding model; The difference working in a team when you’re responsible for their salaries; Whether you should consider your employees as family; Biggest challenges as a justice entrepreneur especially growing a two-sided marketplace; Something that justice entrepreneurs shouldn’t be nervous about; Why you don’t need a non-profit vehicle to make a difference (and why a business model might be more suitable); Attributes that gave Jazz the confidence to move from practising law to the becoming an entrepreneur; Insight into his work ethic; Something unique about the foundation for Turnsignl’s work; What is ‘moving at the speed of trust’; and Jazz’s definition of legal innovation! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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What’s a justice entrepreneur?
07/26/2022
What’s a justice entrepreneur?
Episode no. 83 is the first episode in a 3-part series about justice entrepreneurship. This episode covers: What is justice entrepreneurship? What are the types of issues justice entrepreneurs work on? The 3 categories of justice entrepreneurship Real examples from each of the categories A question to you about what motivates law firm owners? What’s coming up including an interview with a passionate justice entrepreneur and more short solo episodes on how to activate justice entrepreneurship Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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4 things you need for a viable Law Lab
07/12/2022
4 things you need for a viable Law Lab
Episode no. 82 is about “Law Labs”. In Part 1, I cover: What is a Law Lab and where and why were they set up? What kinds of issues or projects do Law Labs work on? Who are the key stakeholders and the benefits they receive (should I establish one)? Part 2 is all about: 4 things you need for a viable Law Lab (in under 4 minutes!) Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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The art of the possible, the doable and the sustainable with Brian W Tang
06/27/2022
The art of the possible, the doable and the sustainable with Brian W Tang
In episode no. 81 my guest is Brian Tang, Founding Executive director of LITE Lab@HKU and Co-chair, Asia-Pacific Legal Innovation & Technology Association (ALITA). We discuss: Career path (which will be interesting to law students); How he became involved with innovation in the law in Hong Kong; Main justice issues in Hong Kong; What LITE stands for, and why it is intentionally a “Lab”; How the Lab works with students from 6 out of the 10 faculties at Hong Kong University; Topics and the experiential experiences that are covered in the Lab’s courses and why; How LITE Lab partners with tech start-ups, NGOs and in-house counsel to co-design research projects; Examples of the innovative projects including workers compensation, low-income tenants, discrimination, womens’ rights, human trafficking and foreign workers; Cultural foundations of ‘pro bono’ and differences in approach across the world; Capacity and evolution of NGOs affecting their response to implement technology; Why Brian considers the LITE Lab a ‘marketplace’ of sorts; The criticism that undergrad courses and hackathons are not effective; The potential of low code/no code, including the ability to maintain software in-house; Need for integration with existing corporate and NGO systems; Issues of funding and software sustainability of applications developed by NGOs; Impact investing, ESG requirements and social entrepreneurs’ potential for the future; Asia-Pacific Legal Innovation and Technology Association’s (“ALITA”) mission; Categories of ALITA awards (closing soon!); and Brian’s definition of legal innovation! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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How multidisciplinary teams lead to better client outcomes
06/14/2022
How multidisciplinary teams lead to better client outcomes
In episode no. 80 I discuss multidisciplinary teamwork in the context of law firms and legal tech start-ups developing products, services and projects. I cover: An explanation of multidisciplinary collaboration and teamwork (and what it’s not); Effective and real-life examples in both a commercial and not-for-profit context; and Tips for making the most from working with a multidisciplinary team. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Purposeful design: creating a better user experience for citizens
05/30/2022
Purposeful design: creating a better user experience for citizens
In episode no. 79, guests Simon Goodrich, Co-founder and Luke Thomas, senior legal designer, Portable cover: Portable’s work and its founders’ motivation to do the work it does; Simon’s journey from community radio and running a film festival to his current work; What prompted Portable’s foray into justice issues and how design and technology can leverage high value tasks and have impact; Specific justice projects including with family violence, young people, wage theft issues and Amica; Luke shares his daily activities of a legal designer; The stage of the design process that both Luke and Simon think is most critical; What Luke has learned from working on numerous projects; Why Simon thinks constraints are good, and tips on navigating them; How to determine whether an organisation will succeed with a design project; Simon’s creative ways to get around resourcing constraints to make a project happen; Whether online information, advice or dispute resolution will make the most difference; Broader actions that are required to improve people’s experience of the law; Tips for effective multidisciplinary collaboration; Approaches that lead to better design outcomes; The one thing they want you to know about Portable; and Simon and Luke’s definition of legal innovation! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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How to save time and improve the quality of your documents
05/17/2022
How to save time and improve the quality of your documents
In episode no. 78, Andrea explores all things document automation. She covers: What is document automation; Use cases in the commercial and not-for-profit context; Factors to consider when embarking on a document automation project; What kinds of documents to automate; and How to overcome barriers to adoption of technology. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Leaving BigLaw for legal engineering: why and how?
05/02/2022
Leaving BigLaw for legal engineering: why and how?
In episode no. 75 I speak with Catherine Bamford, CEO & Founder of BamLegal. We cover: BamLegal’s clients and services; The UK legal industry’s adoption of document automation; How Catherine addresses some common objections to legal technology; The relevance of time billing and fixed fee in this context; How legal technology intersects with ‘real lawyering’; Who should and shouldn’t ‘own’ a legal tech product or project; How legal technology vendors get sales pitches ‘wrong’; Catherine’s ‘why’ for leaving BigLaw and the steps that led her to create her own business; How Catherine got started with legal technology, what she’s working on now and why; Real examples of how document automation assists people with low-middle income; How point-in-time online guidance has significantly improved accuracy of UK divorce forms; Other advantages of technology for clients, lawyers and courts; Catherine’s motivation to produce ‘BamBytes’, ‘Breakfast with Bam’ and to compile innovation and technology resources for the ecosystem; Her thoughts on how the next generation of lawyers approach legal tech; Just how ‘uberised’ the legal process is right now; Her personal characteristics that suggest she would work in legal technology; The job role that was invented when she was working at Pinsent Masons; What jumping in cold rivers and rearranging beer cellars has to do with Catherine’s career; Similarities between legal analysis and computer coding; What Catherine wishes she knew when she started her business; The impact of being able to say “I’m a lawyer” when becoming a legal engineer; How Catherine structures her business to enable flexibility in her team; and Catherine’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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How actress America Ferrera helps us to understand why we don’t innovate more
04/20/2022
How actress America Ferrera helps us to understand why we don’t innovate more
In episode no. 76 I share my comments from an International Women’s Day event in Brisbane in early March, hosted by 9 University of Queensland and Queensland University of Technology clubs. I share what breaking the bias means to me and how I apply it in practice, and a particular bias each of us possess and need to be aware of if we are to innovate and bring about social change. Also, as the title suggests, how actress America Ferrera helps us to understand why we don’t innovate more! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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How fiction helps us envision a more just future
04/05/2022
How fiction helps us envision a more just future
In episode no. 75 I speak with Jason Tashea, Consultant with the World Bank and Innovation Fellow at Vanderbilt University. We discuss: Jason’s motivation for his new project, ‘40 Futures’; the fine line between dystopian fiction and reality; Jason’s writing process and the ‘rules’ he set for himself in developing the project; ’40 Futures’ topics including technological surveillance, improper use of alerts, bio-data, digital privacy laws, automated police vehicles, use of genetic material and ‘the metitentiary’!; ‘Problem finding’ and ‘threatcasting’; the consequences and rights implications of technology or services; the principles that Jason shares that could guide development of technology; a real-world example Jason is working on with the World Bank; our short-term, quick fix approach compared to long term approaches; feeback he’s had from people outside the legal innovation community about the project; what popular TV shows like ‘Law and Order’ did for people understanding their rights; interdisciplinary collaborations to share information!! the ‘Justice Technology Association’ – mission and activities; update on changes to professional legal regulation in the USA; how to get people’s attention on these issues; Jason flipping the interview onto me; and Jason’s (non-!) definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Online dispute resolution: If not now, when?
03/22/2022
Online dispute resolution: If not now, when?
In episode no. 74, I continue the conversation about technology in courts from episode 73 with Dr Anne Wallace and discuss online dispute resolution “ODR”. I cover: How ODR is defined; 6 key characteristics of ODR; Advantages and disadvantages of ODR; International and Australian examples of ODR; The different forms of technology used in ODR; The volume of disputes resolved by e-commerce platforms; Whether ODR should be applied to resolve disputes at scale; How an effective ODR should be designed and what it should include; Is there a professional obligation to use ODR and in what circumstances?; and For the first time on Reimaging Justice, I answer a listener’s question! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Courts during COVID: Will Digital Innovation Stick?
03/07/2022
Courts during COVID: Will Digital Innovation Stick?
In episode no. 73 my special guest is Dr Anne Wallace, Adjunct Professor La Trobe University and Deputy Director Sir Zelman Cowen Centre. We discuss: what first prompted Anne’s interest in technology and court processes; court innovations from the 1990’s and how those initiatives have progressed; how courts and lawyers have adapted to the pandemic; how close we are to a virtual court; advantages of audio visual links for providing evidence and what should determine whether it should be adopted more broadly; what currently informs court strategy and what should do so; court surveys and what they uncover; the potential for courts and researchers to work together to develop indicators to measure people’s experience; the potential for apps and SMS messages to assist litigants given the proliferation of mobile phone usage; automate and enable people to do preliminary work paired with intelligent assistance – CRT; the opportunity for lawyers to use technology to diversify their services and tap into the latent legal market; why the Victorian court’s response to the pandemic didn’t surprise her; courts’ awareness of the need for ‘innovation’ and the relevance of that language; how working with an architect and other disciplines provided Anne with new insights; changes in the mindset of members of the legal industry and Judges; how legal education could encourage multidisciplinary engagement; Anne’s predictions about technology in courts as we move through the pandemic; Imaginative dispute resolution in overseas jurisdictions; and Anne’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic. Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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3 things you should know about legal design
02/21/2022
3 things you should know about legal design
In episode no. 72 I share with you 3 (or maybe 4!) things you should know about legal design. The episode covers: The definition of legal design; How it differs from human-centred design and design thinking; 3 categories of legal design; Real examples of legal design in commercial and not-for-profit contexts; Some key elements of any effective legal design process; Questions to ask if you’d like to implement legal design; How legal design intersects with technology; and A special offer from me! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Doing legal design differently with Sara Rayment
02/07/2022
Doing legal design differently with Sara Rayment
In episode no. 71 my guest is Principal Legal Designer, Inkling Legal Design, Sara Rayment. We discuss: Why legal design makes sense to Sara; The types of projects Inkling Legal Design work on and the common thread between them; Common characteristics of Inkling’s clients; The approach to legal design that sets Inkling apart; The diversity of skills in her law firm and design practice; What science has to do with design thinking; The challenges of managing diverse projects; How linear project management, budgets and agile approach interrelate; The most difficult aspect of working with a new client; Key elements of successful legal design for projects and the people involved; How design sprints are just one part of a project, and the importance of being able to communicate ‘the story’ to facilitate implementation; Participants’ emotional reactions to the various stages of a design sprint and how they encourage personal growth; The primary purpose of user-testing; How law students respond to design thinking; An AI tool developed by Inkling Legal Design to assist lawyers more easily adopt plain language; The lack of consistency in approach and rigour towards legal design as a discipline; and Sara’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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‘Law for the Lay, a new game to play’ with Clarissa Campbell
01/24/2022
‘Law for the Lay, a new game to play’ with Clarissa Campbell
In episode no. 70 my guest is lawyer, creator and producer of social project ‘Law for the Lay’, Clarissa Campbell. We discuss: The project she began in 2019 to share the law with everyday people; What happened that prompted her to actually start the project; How her personal and professional background influences her approach; Her unique style using play and humour to share legal information; How she chooses the topics that she covers; Her legal and branding concerns relating to ‘Law for the Lay’; How she selected which social media platform to use, and the challenge of staying up to date with how algorithms work; What a “Lawfluencer” is; Research she’s done for the project which shocked her; Topics that have received unusual responses and how she handles those challenges; The level of technical support she receives and how she manages her time; Things she’s working to improve about her communication; Other ways in which citizens’ legal awareness could be increased; How acting on our own ‘agency’ and unique skills can assist others; Given it is open to interpretation, I had to ask about her choice of name for the project; Covid interruptions and future plans; and Clarissa’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: ‘Law for the Lay’ Clarissa () Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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A year in review: 3 things I learned about legal innovation with host, Andrea Perry-Petersen
12/04/2021
A year in review: 3 things I learned about legal innovation with host, Andrea Perry-Petersen
In episode no. 69, I reflect on the podcast over the past 12 months and since it began. I share: statistics about Reimagining Justice (downloads, topics, guests and listeners); the most downloaded episodes this year and since the podcast began; an excerpt from Episode 66 with founder Courtroom5 Sonja Ebron; characteristics of (award-winning) justice innovators; and 3 things I learned about legal innovation this year. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic. Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Automation to augmentation: from lawyers acting as modems and machines as judges with Pia Andrews
11/18/2021
Automation to augmentation: from lawyers acting as modems and machines as judges with Pia Andrews
In episode no. 68 my guest is serial public sector transformer, Pia Andrews. We discuss: how her pursuit of “truth” led her to the open-source movement and working in policy development; how technological tools relate to our quality of life; ‘open source’ – its philosophy and implementation and the idea of “clever hacks”; how ‘rules as code’ addresses issues with enforcing regulation; prescriptive and principles-based rules and when each are appropriate; the connection between the cost of implementing regulation and its effectiveness; how an API for prescriptive rules relating to anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism funding could have saved one bank $16M per year!; how ‘rules as code’ make compliance more transparent by allowing for modelling, and how this could increase accountability of the public sector; how current policy creation is insufficient and requires input from community and an example from France which incorporated co-design of policy; Taiwan’s response to the introduction of Uber! the importance of multidisciplinary teams in developing policy and how ‘rules as code’ facilities doing so in real time; how ‘rules as code’ improves trust and compliance with administrative law and shifts the onus to government; different public sector approaches to the “new normal”; how the relationship between the public sector and its government drives outcomes; whether a public sector should serve – the government, parliament or the people? 3 things necessary to create an environment for innovation and solving wicked problems; the connection between capacity and innovation, and Pia’s ideas about how to increase civic participation through a “civic gap year” and “policy difference engine”; and of course Pia’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Saving lives through the power of an online legal community with Kate Briscoe
11/01/2021
Saving lives through the power of an online legal community with Kate Briscoe
In episode no. 67 I speak with Kate Briscoe, of LegalBeagles. The discussion covers: how Kate’s inability to get a job played a part in starting LegalBeagles; how LegalBeagles works today; the large numbers of threads and visitors to the site; the emerging areas of law covered by LegalBeagles; who the volunteers are, what training they undertake to assist on the platform and why Kate thinks they contribute; how LegalBeagles is filling a gap and providing assistance that isn’t being provided anywhere else including from the funded Citizens Advice Bureau; LegalBeagles’ governance structure and relationship with professional legal regulation; Kate’s views on how a lot of innovation initiatives put the “cart before the horse”; the many reasons it may not be appropriate to go to a lawyer; how machine learning is drawing on LegalBeagles’ employment law data to provide instant responses; various set-backs LegalBeagles has experienced including loss of a major partner; Kate’s thoughts on the role of the legal profession in addressing the justice crisis; sources of monetisation and sustainability of the platform; where legal consumers actually go for legal help and how they know who to trust; the link between litigation, health and justice; how the model is saving lives; and Kate’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Self-representation and AI-enabled “trial playbooks” with Sonja Ebron
10/18/2021
Self-representation and AI-enabled “trial playbooks” with Sonja Ebron
In episode no. 66, I speak with Sonja Ebron, founder of Courtroom5. The discussion covers: Sonja’s personal experience as a litigant and how that relates to her work today; The types of matters Courtroom5 is best (and not!) suited to, who and how it assists; How the patterns in the law support AI, and how that fast-tracks self-represented litigants’ understanding of their matters; The factors for litigants to do best using Courtroom5; The tools Courtroom5 employs to alleviate emotional distress; The importance of support during litigation and how Courtroom5 provides that; What a “trial playbook” is; How Courtroom5 engages with courts and legal assistance organisations; Judges’ bias against self-represented litigants??? The structure and composition of Courtroom5’s team; Why Courtroom5 constantly seeks customer feedback; Key factors that drive development of the product; The biggest change since Courtroom5 commenced in 2017; Who are the unexpected users of Courtroom5; What has given the company “the biggest boost”; How Courtroom5 address the challenges of keeping information up to date; What keeps the founders working on such an intractable problem; and Sonja’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Open Law: how technology impacts the rule of law with Michael Green SC
10/04/2021
Open Law: how technology impacts the rule of law with Michael Green SC
In episode no. 65 I speak with Michael Green SC, Barrister and founder of Barnet. The discussion covers: Open Law and how technology can make information more accessible; Who are custodians of legal information and how to best maintain it for future generations; The importance of libraries, their centrality to the law and the function of a library in an online world; The changes to the practise of law over the past few decades due to digitisation; Issues of copyright in digitising Commonwealth Law Reports in the “One to a hundred project” A failed experiment in the law: How BarNet’s purpose and activities have changed since 1997 including splitting the networking and the legal publishing functions; How legal researchers select online research platform; Why JADE considers cases at the “paragraph level” and how it actually works in terms of citations, note-ups and the technology and research that supports it; Current research into the differences in information retention from paper and electronic means; The function” of paper in reflection and contemplation, and limitations of online research; The question of ownership and resourcing of online materials; The role of predictive analytics and imagination in moving our society forward; The difficulty in reconciling different lenses through which we should regulate AI; The need to think carefully about the role of justice, courts and litigants; How Michael has maintained a busy practice at the bar and an online research company; and Michael’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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A citizen-centric pathway for delivering justice with Aniket Doegar
09/20/2021
A citizen-centric pathway for delivering justice with Aniket Doegar
In episode no. 64 I speak with Aniket Doegar, CEO and co-founder of HESPL (Haqdarshak Empowerment Solutions Private Limited), a social impact organisation working on easing access to welfare in India. We cover: What Haqdarshak offers to people and how its services are delivered through the most trustworthy channel; The key reasons that people in India don’t access government social services; Bridging the information gap between the government and its citizens; Why Haqdarshak works with local women and the training they receive; The challenges of training people in digital literacy; How many families and small businesses they’ve assisted, and how many female entrepreneurs they’ve trained; Collaborations they’re working on; The impact of the pandemic on their programs and technology channels and key factor meaning they could continue operating during the pandemic; The importance of both in-person and online options; Haqdarshak’s funding model and how they engage corporates to pay for justice (20min); The barriers they’ve faced in obtaining government information and the resources they use to keep it accurate and up to date; The reason they don’t advocate for change, even though they have lots of data; Why investing in their tech stack has facilitated innovation; The focus on the product first before scaling the program; Aniket’s background in the social justice sector; How using human centred design saved a lot of time along the entrepreneurial journey; The best form of technology to employ; How they got clear on their mission and vision; and especially what not to do; Haqdarshak’s roadmap to incrementally scale, improve process and culture in order to reach 100M people; What “Haqdarshak” means; and Aniket’s definition of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Students, software and social justice with Genevieve Wilkinson and Dana Rutner
08/30/2021
Students, software and social justice with Genevieve Wilkinson and Dana Rutner
In episode no. 63 I speak with Genevieve Wilkinson, Lecturer, Faculty of Law, and Dana Rutner Law and Journalism Student at the University of Technology Sydney and team leader of “Moral Code”, the winning team of 2021 Allens Neota UTS Law Tech Challenge for social justice winning team. We discuss: what attracted Dana to the challenge; the format of the Law Tech Challenge, and the stakeholders involved; the critical role of mentors from Allens and the importance of the Neota training; what made the difference to working well as a team; how the teams gained a thorough understanding of the issues facing their partner not-for-profit Autism Spectrum Australia, “Aspect”; how they tested their ideas and the apps; the winning “Raffle app” – what’s unique about it, how it assists Aspect and its likely impact; is potential to scale and the challenges in achieving that; ethical issues relating to technology including from a human rights perspective; other apps created during the challenge to assist not-for-profit partners including Siana - helping International Social Service Australia with international child abduction applications under the Hague convention; Apollo - a volunteer coordination app for Respect Now Always; and Empower Her - reporting and providing feedback for the mentoring program for the Women's Justice Network; the key thing Dana learnt from this experience; the points of difference in this program; the benefits of collaboration between a law school and its students, not-for-profits, software providers and a law firm! Dana and Genevieve’s one word to describe the challenge; and Dana and Genevieve’s definitions of legal innovation. Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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Empowering remote communities with culturally appropriate legal resources with Lindsay Greatorix
08/16/2021
Empowering remote communities with culturally appropriate legal resources with Lindsay Greatorix
Episode no. 62 is with Lindsay Greatorex, Community Liaison and Education Officer (West Kimberley) with Legal Aid Western Australia (LAWA). We discuss: Blurred Borders - legal resource kits using visual art and storytelling to explain legal concepts in a culturally appropriate way why the kits were developed and how the project got started what sticks and rocks have to do with a bail process map the number of kits that have been distributed and who uses them the process the project team undertook to get the language and the art “right” the importance of community outreach in remote areas what accounts for the kits’ universal appeal how an artist identified what was missing and what that meant for adoption of the project by the community the form of user-centred design unique to this project the importance of collaboration across sectors the key benefits from the project some unintended consequences of the project how community workers have used the resource in helpful ways in local language the challenges of developing a project in such a remote area three times the size of the Tasmania (including the need for flexibility, high staff turnover and lack of understanding of the English language) the importance of having the right people to maintain the relationships in community and to ensure that it was culturally appropriate the tension between investing time to save time how Legal Aid WA determines if the project is having impact how the project engages clients and increases interaction what Lindsay would do to expand this project if he had a magic want whether technology would be appropriate for this application future uses for the resource kits and Lindsay’s definition of legal innovation! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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The importance of creativity, community and fun in developing legal inventors of the future
08/02/2021
The importance of creativity, community and fun in developing legal inventors of the future
Episode no. 61 features Dan Jackson, Executive Director and Jules Rochielle Sievert, Creative Director of NuLawLab, Northeastern University School of Law. The NuLawLab is the interdisciplinary innovation laboratory at Northeastern University School of Law. It is one of the first law labs established in the US and its staff, students and stakeholders are leading the way in the emerging global Legal Design movement. Through its programs, projects, seminars, and research the lab builds cross-disciplinary teams and community-based partnerships focused on transforming legal education, the legal profession, and the delivery of legal services. The discussion covers: how the NuLawLab approaches problem-solving and collaborates with artistic people outside the walls of academia to find new ways of moving through complicated issues and to provide people with greater access to their legal rights; how integrating various design methodologies provides the freedom to explore and to work with community needs and values; what Dan and Jules see as the current and future possibilities for legal design, and what legal design shouldn’t be; how law students are involved in both long and short scale work; details of projects including RePresent game, and Stable Ground and how they had to pivot with the onset of the pandemic; how building trust with community organisations long term can shift the work from transactional to transformational; issues with innovation funding and how it could be better spent; how co-design centres community leadership and leverages resources to assist direct services; how each project and team gets started and developed (and why the lab doesn’t have an application form!); where project funding comes from and other important forms of sustainability; how Dan and Jules respond to requests to articulate the value of the lab’s work; the need to bridge the “language gap” between people from different disciplines; how black letter lawyers can approach work with people from other disciplines and why we need to work with creative fields; key factors for a successful innovative lab; how legal design enables lawyers to exercise their creativity; Dan’s idea about add-athons and Jules (re)definition of legal innovation! Proudly sponsored by Neota Logic. Links: Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – Twitter - Facebook –
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