Author's Afterword
Join me each second and fourth Monday of the month, when I'll be in conversation with an author about one (occasionally more) of their books. We'll be taking a fairly deep dive, looking at the background, the topics, writing, and the nitty gritty. Expect spoilers and frequent discussions of the endings. Formally called The Worm Hole Podcast
info_outline
128: Maggie Stiefvater (The Listeners)
09/08/2025
128: Maggie Stiefvater (The Listeners)
Charlie and Maggie Stiefvater (The Listeners) discuss the lesser-known history of the US hosting Axis diplomats in luxury hotels, the arrangements made to swap diplomats one for one, including disability and mental illness in such a story, Maggie's main character's dachshunds and their relationship to the man they never let pet them, the era-aligned game that Maggie created, and much more. General references: Charlie's conversation with Elaine Chiew is episode 111 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Maggie Stiefvater: Shiver Maggie Stiefvater: The Scorpio Races Maggie Stiefvater: The Raven Cycle Maggie Stiefvater: The Listeners Release details: recorded 1st May 2025; published 8th September 2025 Where to find Maggie online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 00:01:41 How the book started 00:08:01 The history and hotels in terms of Maggie's interest. Lots of info here! 00:13:08 How Maggie created the characters; whether there's been a change in her process of 'thieving' 00:16:30 Creating June and her role as 'Hoss' 00:20:51 June and Tucker together and in the context of the sweetwater 00:25:43 Are the sweetwater or Avalon hotel characters? 00:28:57 The letters Maggie bookends the story with, and then we move on to Pennybacker and the dachshunds and Edgar 00:38:12 411 00:41:18 Disability and labels in the book, including Sandy and Maggie's decisions in regards to his story thread 00:50:04 Edgar beyond the pages 00:51:55 The arrangements during WW2 where diplomats were exchanged between the powers 00:57:49 What did Pennybacker have to say about the Swiss that he said he'd tell June? 00:59:11 The game of Winnet! 01:03:46 Present news about the Shiver film adaptation 01:04:39 Brief info on what Maggie's next adult novel Photo credit: Stephen Voss
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/38119880
info_outline
127: Emily Slapper (Everyone I Know Is Dying)
08/25/2025
127: Emily Slapper (Everyone I Know Is Dying)
Charlie and Emily Slapper (Everyone I Know Is Dying) discuss her phenomenal book that looks at a young woman spiralling from mental illness. This involves discussing romantic relationships when one is depressed, the affect of parents, the affect of society, and not using labels. General references: I spoke to Samantha Sotto Yambao in episode 122 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Emily Slapper: Everyone I Know Is Dying Sylvia Plath: The Bell Jar Release details: recorded 16th April 2025; published 25th August 2025 Where to find Emily online: Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:25 The inspiration, films that only scratched the surface 03:25 Emily's surprising answer to the question of what research she did 04:14 Talking of the nod to The Bell Jar 04:41 And to the question as to Emily's books in a drawer, and about Emily's original career plan 07:02 The first line and responses to Iris as a character 10:01 On not labelling Iris 11:10 The importance of writing fiction about mental illness 12:39 Including discussion on how society affects us 14:48 George and his role 18:00 Patrick and his role 20:24 The impact of Iris' parents and upbringing on her 24:44 Emily's choices as to the ending 28:30 How should we feel about Sara? 31:50 On privilege or the lack of it 33:05 Patrick's life beyond the book 34:58 The way Emily incorporates the passing of seasons 38:28 Emily's second book
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/37939300
info_outline
126: Michael Stewart (Black Wood Women)
08/11/2025
126: Michael Stewart (Black Wood Women)
Charlie and Michael Stewart (Black Wood Women) discuss the persecution of Irish people in the 17th century, the loss of and possible reintroduction of wolves in Britain, and 17th century hippies. Please note that there is discussion of drugs in this episode. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Elizabeth Fremantle: Honey And The Sting Ian D Rotherham: Yorkshire's Forgotten Fenlands Michael Stewart: King Crow Michael Stewart: Walking The Invisible Michael Stewart: Black Wood Women Michael Stewart: Surrounded By My Enemy Stacey Thomas: The Revels Release details: recorded 14th April 2025; published 11th August 2025 Where to find Michael online: || Where to find Charlie online: || || Discussions 01:25 The inspiration for Black Wood Women. We continue on the subject of wolves and their loss and reintroduction 06:50 What having three narratives allowed Michael to explore 08:29 The persecution of Irish people in the 1600s 11:08 Michael talks about the 1600s communities that we might today call hippy 16:14 World building, making it all so real 19:19 The language of the novel - a mix, Charlie found, of old and new 21:54 On Michael's witches taking substances 23:52 Michael's interest in ravens 29:14 The men, particularly Johanne the Swedish wolf hunter who Charlie reckons is more witch than anything else 34:53 Was the questioning in Black Wood Women of what was going on with witch accusers drawn from the history? 39:31 More about Alice 42:16 About the ecology in the book and how this relates to our present day 45:28 Is it difficult writing such a dark book? 50:19 What Michael's writing now, Surrounded By My Enemies
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/37751465
info_outline
125: Paul McVeigh (I Hear You)
07/28/2025
125: Paul McVeigh (I Hear You)
Charlie and Paul McVeigh (I Hear You) discuss Paul's time writing stories for the BBC, being an emotional writer, and a traumatic medical experience that has had a big effect on some of his work. Please note there are two incredibly mild swear words in this episode. General references: Paul's play is called Big Man Books mentioned by name or extensively: Kit de Waal: My Name Is Leon Kit de Waal (ed.): Common People Paul McVeigh: The Good Son Paul McVeigh: I Hear You Paul McVeigh (ed.) The 32 Paul McVeigh (ed.) Queer Love Sarah Butler: Ten Things I’ve Learnt About Love Sinéad Gleeson (ed.) The Art Of The Glimpse Wendy Erskine: Sweet Home Wendy Erskine: Dance Move Release details: recorded 7th April 2025; published 28th July 2025 Where to find Paul online: || Where to find Charlie online: || || Discussions 01:28 Paul talks about being commissioned by the BBC to write the short stories now featured in I Hear You, as well as his success in doing so 07:03 Why publish these short stories in a collection now? 13:01 Did Paul's working class background have an affect on the resilience he's discussed? 16:37 The first story, Tickles. We also talk about Paul being an emotional writer 26:01 The second story, Cuckoo, which is heavily influenced by an operation Paul had 32:45 About the 10 linked stories, The Circus 38:23 Paul tells us about the short story collection he's currently writing
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/37466000
info_outline
124: Sophie Jo (Red Flags)
07/14/2025
124: Sophie Jo (Red Flags)
Charlie and Sophie Jo (Red Flags) discuss healthy relationships particularly in the context of young people and in terms of values and hobbies. They also delve into popular media from the '90s and 2000s as included in Sophie's book. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Sally Rooney: Conversations With Friends Sally Rooney: Normal People Sophie Jo: Red Flags Release details: recorded 17th March 2025; published 14th July 2025 Where to find Sophie online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:35 The inspiration for Red Flags 04:10 More about Stephanie 08:34 Is there a sequel for Stephanie in Sophie's future? 10:54 Creating Poppy and Cam, who Charlie found were extremely well written 13:56 Sophie tells us about her work helping teens know what about healthy love looks like 17:58 The popular media references in the book from the 1990s and 2000s 20:39 The scene in the bookstore, the meta aspect to Red Flags 23:12 Talking more about relationships where people might not have interests in common 25:08 Cam's parents and their affects on his views of relationships and so on 28:55 Talking about the characters we haven't yet talked about 31:13 Cam's granddad 33:01 Where might Poppy and Cam end up in the future? 35:59 What the response has been from teen readers 37:23 Some details about Sophie's next book
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/37278110
info_outline
123: Carmel Harrington (The Stolen Child)
06/23/2025
123: Carmel Harrington (The Stolen Child)
Charlie and Carmel Harrington (The Stolen Child) discuss her stunning thriller wherein the reveal is given at the start and we have to find out the how and the why, a boy stolen as a child and now he's found his way home... Please note we mention abuse, kidnapping, and prostitution. Books mentioned by name or extensively: Carmel Harrington: The Stolen Child Carmel Harrington: The Nowhere Girls J R R Tolkien: The Lord Of The Rings Release details: recorded 17th February 2025; published 23rd June 2025 Where to find Carmel online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:33 The inspiration for The Stolen Child 04:43 Carmel's research 06:18 Planning and plotting 10:37 On giving the answers up front and working with everything else after doing that 13:00 Exploring DNA tests 14:13 Creating the characters 21:02 More about Kimberley's father-in-law, Kevin 23:08 The locations - why them and why have four? 25:55 The prostitution storylines 28:47 On Sally not going back to the orphanage but being able to talk to Sister Jones 31:28 Ian, the exploitative abuser 44:37 On not dobbing Kimberley to the police 50:49 Was it difficult getting these characters out of your head after you'd finished the book? 52:11 Watering plants with pasta water?! 53:02 What Carmel is working on now Photo credit: Patrick Browne Photography
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/37106665
info_outline
122: Samantha Sotto Yambao (Water Moon)
06/09/2025
122: Samantha Sotto Yambao (Water Moon)
Charlie and Samantha Sotto Yambao (Water Moon) discuss her UK debut - yay! - exploring the concepts of fate and choice, the process of evolving the romance, and, we catch up on the lives of Sam's dogs. General references: Sam joined me to discuss The Beginning of Always in episode 50 Sam joined me to discuss Before Ever After, Love and Gravity, and A Dream of Trees in episode 5 Books mentioned by name or extensively: David and Leigh Eddings: The Belgariad J R R Tolkien: Return Of The King Samantha Sotto: Before Ever After Samantha Sotto: Love And Gravity Samantha Sotto: A Dream Of Trees Samantha Sotto Yambao: Water Moon Release details: recorded 11th February 2025; published 9th June 2025 Where to find Sam online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || Discussions 03:38 This being Sam's UK debut; how it came about 07:32 The inspirations - Ninenzaka in Kyoto 10:28 Expanding on the pawnshop concept in terms of Water Moon's look at fate and choice 12:56 Sam's interest in putting science and fantasy and magical realism together 15:07 Neutrinos! 17:24 When in the process do you research? 19:01 Creating Hana 23:05 Writing about the loss of mothers 25:40 The romance in terms of when Keishin was included 31:19 The bad guys of the book 34:05 All about the ending and Sam's choices 37:17 Charlie brings in Death of the Author 41:06 Doctor Who references 42:19 What's next? 43:03 Asking about Sam's dogs who have made appearances in our previous episodes
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/36906975
info_outline
Necessary hiatus: dental gone wrong
05/26/2025
Necessary hiatus: dental gone wrong
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/36703675
info_outline
121: Amy Jordan (The Dark Hours)
05/12/2025
121: Amy Jordan (The Dark Hours)
Charlie and Amy Jordan (The Dark Hours) discuss the Irish police force, the Garda, in the 1990s, particularly where it involves sexism. They also discuss the effects on a relationship of being a member of the police, and the way trauma can influence extreme actions. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Amy Jordan: The Dark Hours Release details: recorded 14th January 2025; published 12th May 2025 Where to find Amy online: Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:31 The inspiration 03:19 Writing Julia and exploring the effects of what she's been through 09:21 Exploring trauma and its effects 14:22 The pacing 18:49 More about how Amy included Julia's husband and what he goes through as a result of her career, which includes talking about people Amy knows 23:26 Where Julia says, "Call me Julia" 25:22 The misogyny and the Garda in general in the 1990s 32:36 Brendon and his Morse Code 35:08 Creating the fictional villages, and Amy's spooky story of a real house 38:33 Minor details of book 2, including where Amy will take Julia and Philip's relationship
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/36508595
info_outline
120: Amy Engel (I Did It For You)
04/28/2025
120: Amy Engel (I Did It For You)
Charlie and Amy Engel (I Did It For You) discuss her literary thriller wherein the killer did it but it isn't that simple, wherein both the victim's and killer's families are given empathy, and wherein the sister of the victim and the brother of the killer start a romance. Please note that whilst there are no references to detailed violence, this episode looks at various issues surrounding murder cases. General references: It was indeed Elmore Leonard who said, "You take out the parts that people skip when they're reading". Books mentioned by name or extensively: Amy Engel: The Familiar Dark Amy Engel: I Did It For You Release details: recorded 17th December 2024; published 28th April 2025 Where to find Amy online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:15 The inspiration - location and character 02:37 Creating Greer 04:50 Creating Ludlow and the well-drawn townspeople 07:53 How Amy works with secrets and reveals 09:24 How was it writing Greer in terms of her being an unreliable narrator? 11:10 The different extra narratives 12:33 Roy, the killer's, difference, his potential neurodivergence, and the importance of looking at this 15:41 Did you ever consider not having Roy 'do' it? 17:33 The grief in the book, including a look at the different sets of parents 19:46 Including Dean and humanising the family of the murderer 22:30 Amy tells us more about how her career in law influenced her writing 24:35 The slower pacing, which isn't so usual for a thriller, and how Amy categorises her novels. We then move on to what Amy added to the novel in editing 27:59 Amy's thought process and planning in regards to the bad guy (different person to the killer) 34:03 Amy deciding to end Greer and Dean's romance 36:29 Where Greer and Dean may end up, separately, beyond the pages of the book. We then move on to Greer's parents in the same vein 39:03 What Amy is writing and planning now
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/36230465
info_outline
119: Nydia Hetherington (Sycorax)
04/14/2025
119: Nydia Hetherington (Sycorax)
Charlie and Nydia Hetherington (Sycorax) discuss the witch Shakespeare's Prospero hates so much and Nydia's reimagining slash prequel to The Tempest. This involves conversation about chronic illness, attitudes to women in regards to the occult, and on a seemingly unrelated subject, the tendency of pirates to leave problematic people on isolated islands. General references: W H Auden: The Sea And The Mirror Books mentioned by name or extensively: Libby Colman: Trixie - The Childhood Of Sycorax, Witch Of Algiers Margaret Atwood: Hag-Seed Marina Warner: Indigo Nydia Hetherington: A Girl Made Of Air Nydia Hetherington: Sycorax Tad Williams: Caliban's Hour William Shakespeare: The Tempest Release details: recorded 4th December 2024; published 14th April 2025 Where to find Nydia online: || Where to find Charlie online: || || Discussions 01:20 The initial inspirations - theatre and Nydia's chronic condition 10:23 Research and inspirations in regards to other adaptations 12:58 More on Nydia's dedication to Shakespearean writing 13:58 Disability and women being witches put together 20:01 The good women in the book, Yemma and Zari 24:11 Including Barbarossa the pirate and the way pirates left criminals isolated 28:26 Afalkey the Beautiful and charming men 30:05 The role the Crow plays 32:48 What Nydia is writing at the moment 34:30 Nydia's William Blake novel she mentioned earlier
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/35913770
info_outline
118: Gill Paul (Scandalous Women)
03/24/2025
118: Gill Paul (Scandalous Women)
Charlie and Gill Paul (Scandalous Women) discuss Jackie Collins, Jacqueline Susann, and the way the 1960s publishing industry treated women. General references: My other episodes with Gill are 42 and 86 I spoke to Èric Chacour in episode 115 The three books with a Mira in them were Eliza Chan's Fathomfolk, Èric Chacour's What I Know About You, and Rebecca Yarros' Fourth Wing Books mentioned by name or extensively: Dale Carnegie: How To Win Friends And Influence People Gill Paul: Another Woman's Husband Gill Paul: The Second Marriage (Jackie And Maria) Gill Paul: A Beautiful Rival Gill Paul: Scandalous Women Helen Gurley Brown: Sex And The Single Girl Ian McEwan: On Chesil Beach Jackie Collins: The World Is Full Of Married Men Jacqueline Susann: Valley Of The Dolls Jacqueline Susann: The Love Machine Letty Cottin Pogrebin: How To Make It In A Man's World Truman Capote: In Cold Blood Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 11th October 2024; published 24th March 2025 Where to find Gill online: || || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:23 Why these women and why now? 03:02 More about Jacqueline Susann and Jackie Collins 04:15 Jacqueline Susann's screen work 05:58 On Gill's having Jacqueline Susann and Jackie Collins meet and support each other 09:06 The murder of Sharon Tate 10:29 Jacqueline's illness and bargaining with God 14:22 About Jackie Collins' marriages 17:28 Creating the fictional character, Nancy 20:55 More on Nancy in regards to the historical misogyny 26:19 Gill's fictional Truman Capote interview and the real stories including the facts behind Capote's In Cold Blood 31:06 Jacqueline Susann's keeping up to date with booksellers' lives 33:31 Nancy's relationships with Stephen and George 35:52 The Cousin, Louise, the drugs and trafficking 37:18 Gill's writing style and how it aligns with Scandalous Women 39:28 Including a small nod to A Beautiful Rival and how Gill includes these in her books in general 41:45 What Gill is writing now Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/35677785
info_outline
117: C J Wray (The Excitements)
03/10/2025
117: C J Wray (The Excitements)
Charlie and C J Wray (The Excitements) discuss the WW2 women her book about fun-loving nonagenarians is based on and her views on modern and historical adoption as an adoptee herself. We also discuss the Peter Jones (John Lewis) department store, using Morse Code, and Diamond Doris, a jewel-thief who got away with quite a bit. Please note there are a couple of mild swear words in this episode. Please also note we talk of the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry which is commonly shortened to FANY. General references: The Yoga teacher Chris mentions is Dorothea Barron. It isn't the same lady Charlie mentions, and unfortunately Charlie has been unable to find out who that was. Books mentioned by name or extensively: C J Wray: The Excitements C J Wray: Bad Influence Christian Lamb (with Chris): Beyond The Sea, A Wren At War Don Marquis: Archy and Mehitabel Pam and Jean Owtram (with Chris): Codebreaking Sisters Stella Knightley: The Girl Behind The Mask Stella Knightley: The Girl Behind The Fan Stella Knightley: The Girl Behind The Curtain W E Fairbairn's book: Hands Off! Self Defense For Women And Girls Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 26th September 2024; published 10th March 2025 Where to find Chris online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:05 About Pat and Jean Owtram, the two sisters who inspired The Excitements 04:04 About the inspiration for Penny's stealing, Diamond Doris 07:25 Using the Peter Jones department store 09:05 All about Archie 10:20 Toujours gai! 11:43 How Chris went about the writing itself 14:13 The Invictus poem and Fairbairn book 16:53 Chris' use of Morse Code 19:16 Davinia and Sister Eugenia, and we then move on to Arlene 22:52 Chris talks about adoptions both historical and modern and her views on it as an adoptee herself 28:20 Did Chris consider having Penny and Josephine defeat the gunman? 29:03 Frank's choice not to send Penny back to into the field 31:59 About Chris' next book, Bad Influence 34:51 Chris once wrote a 90,000 page book in 2 months! Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/35301025
info_outline
Live 01: Alex Hay, Lucy Barker, Stacey Thomas
03/03/2025
Live 01: Alex Hay, Lucy Barker, Stacey Thomas
Charlie is joined by Alex Hay, Lucy Barker, Stacey Thomas, and a wonderful audience at Goldfinch Books in Alton. You want a writing deep dive? You've got it! Please note that this episode has a whispered swear word in it - we were all adults! The next live event will be at P&G Wells in Winchester on Friday 4th April. If you can't click the link, go to pgwells.co.uk Full show notes and a transcript to follow shortly.
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/35504620
info_outline
116: Maggie Brookes (The Prisoner's Wife)
02/24/2025
116: Maggie Brookes (The Prisoner's Wife)
Charlie and Maggie Brookes (The Prisoner's Wife) discuss her stunning story which was inspired by a real happening - a woman who hid in plain sight as a British soldier in a prisoner of war camp. General references: Maggie's previous episode with me is episode 92 The party episode with Maggie is Milestone 01 (also with Elizabeth Fremantle, Gill Paul, and Amanda Geard) Books mentioned by name or extensively: Charlotte Brontë: Jane Eyre Maggie Brookes: The Prisoner's Wife Maggie Brookes-Butt: Wish John Nichol and Tony Rennell: The Last Escape Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 23rd September 2024; published 24th February 2025 Where to find Maggie online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:29 The inspiration - a woman who hid as a man in a Nazi prisoner of war camp and how real it might be 09:49 How Maggie's work as a BBC producer helped her write The Prisoner's Wife 11:49 How the book started as a poem and then Maggie's journey to Czechia to do research into the Long March 20:19 The inspiration of Maggie's father, a prisoner of war who never spoke about his experience 26:58 What Maggie cut from the novel 28:52 Izzy's character development, language progression, and 'Algernon Cousins' 34:38 Adding in Bill's chapters later 36:53 Ralph and his fate being left open 41:24 Scotty's character and his sacrifice 43:28 The real Rosa Rauchbach and her lover 44:32 What are you writing now? Photo credit: Lyn Gregory Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/34789740
info_outline
115: Éric Chacour (What I Know About You)
02/10/2025
115: Éric Chacour (What I Know About You)
Charlie and Éric Chacour (What I Know About You) discuss Egypt in the 1970s for the Levantine community and LGBT people, the famous French-Egyptian singer Dalida, Romeo and Juliet, Éric's use of the second person, and author and translator working together on writing that had been in place for 15 years. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Éric Chacour: What I Know About You Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 20th September 2024; published 10th February 2025 Where to find Éric online: || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:09 Éric's initial inspiration, Romeo and Juliet, for What I Know About You (he'd been writing the book for years) 05:18 The writing itself, including the use of the second person (Charlie has pointed out Éric's dedication to syllables and language) and the translation 10:31 The political backdrop, the use of it, and the decades chosen 13:29 The time period in terms of the LGBT community and Tarek's choices in that context 14:55 Entangled protons and love 16:25 Could Tarek have stayed with his family? 18:24 More on reader's interpretations and reactions 20:53 Nesrine and Mira and their importance 26:35 The servant, Fatheya 29:16 Talking of the impossibility of another point of view and the ending 31:20 Éric tells us why he included Vivienne 33:11 More about theatrical inspirations, and then we get on to how Éric wanted to be a songwriter 37:44 Dalida 39:22 Should we blame the grandmother? 41:54 Reality and fiction in terms of Rafik's narrative owing much to imagination and interpretation 45:41 What's next? Photo credit: Justine Latour Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/34715655
info_outline
114: Edward Carey (Edith Holler)
01/27/2025
114: Edward Carey (Edith Holler)
Charlie and Edward Carey (Edith Holler) talk at length about the arts and the theatre in the context of his book and in general. They also talk about Norwich as Edward's book is his love letter to the city. Please note there is a mild swear word in this episode. General references: Edward's previous episode on this podcast is number 52 My episode with Melissa Fu is number 59 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Edward Carey: Edith Holler Gaston Le Roux: The Phantom Of The Opera Jeanette Winterson: The Passion Julian Of Norwich: Revelations Of Divine Love Robert Louis Stevenson: Memories And Portraits Xavier de Maistre: Voyage Around My Room Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 2nd September 2024; published 27th January 2025 Where to find Edward online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:29 The starting point of Edith Holler - lockdown, not being able to go to the theatre, and Brexit. We then move on to the fictional missing children in the book 05:22 Norwich as both a location and inspiration 12:01 Further notes on creating Edith herself, and then we discuss interpretations 18:41 More on the drawings and card theatre 21:05 The other characters 25:10 The Iron Curtain that separates theatre crew and theatre goers 29:01 The language of the novel 30:37 Was there something in particular that lead to you setting the book in the Edwardian period? 33:23 Being in Edith's head 34:27 Beetle Spread! 38:30 Did you ever consider having Edith leave the theatre? 39:20 The undercrofts and the importance of moving the story underground. We then continue on to discuss further theatrical influences on both the novel and ourselves 47:12 The photograph of a woman at the very end of the book 48:59 Edward explains why he won't tell us about what he's currently working on Photo credit: Elizabeth McCracken Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/34156885
info_outline
113: Chloe C Peñaranda (The Stars Are Dying)
01/13/2025
113: Chloe C Peñaranda (The Stars Are Dying)
Charlie and Chloe C Peñaranda (The Stars Are Dying) discuss the incident wherein her heroine stabs the hero, getting around her hero's ability to run amok via deus ex machina, and becoming a hybrid author after success as a self-published writer. Please note there are brief mentions of abuse in this episode. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Chloe C Peñaranda: An Heir Comes To Rise Chloe C Peñaranda: A Throne From The Ashes Chloe C Peñaranda: A Sword From The Embers Chloe C Peñaranda: The Stars An Dying Chloe C Peñaranda: The Night Is Defying Sarah J Maas: A Court Of Thorns And Roses Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 24th October 2024; published 13th January 2025 Where to find Chloe online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:36 Was romantasy the genre you'd been waiting for? 02:55 The initial thought for The Stars Are Dying - Greek myths and Chloe's series An Heir Comes To Rise, and we talk about potential spin-off series 06:34 Why Chloe chose the second iteration of Nyte and Astraea's relationship to focus on instead of the first 08:04 On having a general direction or goal in mind for The Stars Are Dying 08:49 Creating Astraea and Nyte 10:26 Using a slow burn romance 11:45 Getting around the potential deus ex machina of Nyte's powers 13:07 Deciding when to give readers answers as to Astraea's mental state and so on 14:33 The inclusion of amnesia and abuse 15:44 The Libertatum 17:55 The planning before putting pen to paper 19:21 Discussing Astrea's stabbing of Nyte 20:53 Slight notes on the crossover between The Stars Are Dying and An Heir Comes To Rise 23:54 On Cassia's role 25:06 Drystan 25:38 About The Night Is Defying 27:06 How fans of An Heir Comes To Rise have responded to The Stars Are Dying 28:38 Being, now, a hybrid author 30:13 How the traditional publishing deal came about 32:19 On getting a house and garden for her dogs following the publishing deal 33:37 Ideas Chloe is considering for her next work Photo credit: Caroline Anne Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/33979707
info_outline
112: Eliza Chan (Fathomfolk)
12/23/2024
112: Eliza Chan (Fathomfolk)
Charlie and Eliza Chan (Fathomfolk) discuss many questions of immigration in both reality and her fantasy fiction, the different mythological creatures she used and decisions in regards to location inspiration, and Fathomfolk's controversial ending. Please note there is a spoiler in this episode for N K Jemisin's The Fifth Season. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Eliza Chan: Fathomfolk Eliza Chan: Tideborn N K Jemisin: The Fifth Season R F Kuang: Babel Rhonda Parrish (ed.): Sirens Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 14th August 2024; published 23rd December 2024 Where to find Eliza online: || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:25 The initial inspirations 04:34 More about the topic of immigration 06:57 World building and the world outside of Tiankawi 09:05 Creating Mira, Nami, and Cordelia 14:56 Having started with one narrative and changing it to three 17:44 Using different countries' mythologies, originally planning to set Fathomfolk in a British city, and the possibility of historical settings 25:25 Kai's significance and his relationship with Mira 28:59 Writing and pacing 31:23 Eliza's 'use' of The Drawbacks and the response to the book 37:06 The Onseon engine 39:20 Dragon pearls 42:25 The themes of motherhood and friendship 46:18 The use of gods 49:46 The controversial ending! 51:25 Book two, Tideborn 52:23 Harbour Of Hungry Ghosts 53:52 The game of Wulan Photo credit: Sandi Hodkinson Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/33624107
info_outline
Announcement: Live Show!
12/16/2024
Announcement: Live Show!
First live show details Guests: Alex Hay (The Queen Of Fives; The Housekeepers), Stacey Thomas (The Revels), Lucy Barker (The Other Side Of Mrs Wood) Date: Wednesday 26th February Location: Goldfinch Books, Alton, Hampshire Ticket link: Accessibility: Both the shop itself and the toilets are accessible.
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/34457240
info_outline
111: Elaine Chiew (The Light Between Us)
12/09/2024
111: Elaine Chiew (The Light Between Us)
Charlie and Elaine Chiew (The Light Between Us) discuss early 20th century Singaporean photography and its influences on Elaine's novel in depth, which involves looking at social issues and the history of the qipao. We also dive into the time travel aspects and the use of Chinese spirit-mediums. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Constance Turnbull: A History Of Singapore Elaine Chiew: The Heartsick Diaspora Elaine Chiew: The Light Between Us Elaine Chiew (ed.): Cooked Up! Kevin Kwan: Crazy Rich Asians Terence Heng: Of Gods, Gifts and Ghosts Spiritual Places in Urban Spaces Viet Thanh Nguyen: The Sympathizer Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 23rd July 2024; published 9th December 2024 Where to find Elaine online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 00:02:04 About Elaine's research into early 20th century Singaporean photographs and bringing voices that haven't had a say in fiction to the fore 00:10:28 How important is The Light Between Us's Tian Wei compared to Charlie [the character]? 00:14:48 Working out the time travel and including Charlie's family 00:21:04 How Elaine's career in the creative arts influenced the book, and how women in Singapore used their agency when being photographed 00:35:38 Looking at the smaller moments of war and the lead up to war. Also Elaine's inclusion of the Ghee Hin Kong Si 00:40:19 Aiko's creation and importance in the book 00:47:17 Elaine's writing style and use of punctuation which fascinated our host! 00:52:14 The use of the tangki and all that involved 01:00:59 Brief notes on what Elaine is writing now Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/32316457
info_outline
110: Emma Cowell (The Island Love Song)
11/25/2024
110: Emma Cowell (The Island Love Song)
Charlie and Emma Cowell (The Island Love Song) discuss the Greek island of Hydra, reactions from readers in regards to IVF and polyamory plot threads, early onset dementia, and the Parthenon sculptures. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Emma Cowell: One Last Letter From Greece Emma Cowell: The House In The Olive Grove Emma Cowell: The Island Love Song Emma Cowell: Under The Lemon Tree Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 9th July 2024; published 25th November 2024 Where to find Emma online: || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:20 The inspiration - the Greek island of Hydra 04:10 The conflict in the book, siblings, and how being on an island makes it more dramatic 06:04 The island as a character 07:41 Why it was important to explore sisterhood and non-chosen family 13:40 Writing Georgia in all her chaos and character progression 18:24 Ella and having to live with your ex having wrote a song about you 20:18 Emma tells us about the songs in the book (they exist!) and her musical background 24:32 Leonard Cohen's influence in terms of Hydra, and Hydra's lack of technology 27:51 Emma's use of the island of Dokos and writing about researching Greek food at The Pirate Bar 34:29 Emma discusses IVF journeys, parenthood, and readers who contact her to thank her for the way she includes fertility and romantic issues. We then move on to a time in Greece where there were very problematic adoptions 40:00 The concept of twin flames 42:32 Emma's inclusion of early onset dementia 48:27 Why Emma set her 'present day' storyline in 2016 - student days and mobile phone usage 51:15 Emma's thoughts on returning the Elgin marbles/Parthenon sculptures 54:05 What's next - the book to be named Under The Lemon Tree. This morphs into a longer conversation about how Emma writes and plots 58:52 What Emma cut from The Island Love Song Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/32088447
info_outline
109: Susan Muaddi Darraj (Behind You Is The Sea)
11/11/2024
109: Susan Muaddi Darraj (Behind You Is The Sea)
Charlie and Susan Muaddi Darraj (Behind You Is The Sea) discuss the Palestinian Christian community, her immigrant characters and their children, how she used the current conflict in her stories, and the segregation of the working class in Baltimore, Maryland. Please note this episode mentions domestic violence. Books mentioned by name or extensively: Lawrence T Brown: The Black Butterfly Susan Muaddi Darraj: Farah Rocks Fifth Grade Susan Muaddi Darraj: Farah Rocks Summer Break Susan Muaddi Darraj: Farah Rocks New Beginnings Susan Muaddi Darraj: Farah Rocks Florida Susan Muaddi Darraj: Behind You Is The Sea Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 25th June 2024; published 11th November 2024 Where to find Susan online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:49 The initial inspiration for Behind You Is The Sea - Susan's character, Marcus Salameh 05:01 How poetry runs in Susan's family 07:21 The focus on women and women's worth 09:15 Susan's choices in making most of her characters people from one family 10:36 The story Hashtag - including stories of domestic violence and murder - and how the West would see it 16:13 How Susan doesn't want to be 'nice' to her characters 18:37 The different generations and how they relate to one another, and then we move on to discuss a spin-off novel that Susan is writing 23:55 Where the title, Behind You Is The Sea, came from 26:16 How Palestinian Muslims and Palestinian Christians live peacefully together in Palestine 31:13 Segregation in Baltimore 35:53 The way Susan included the current Arab-Israeli conflict in the book 37:35 What's next - Susan's current works in progress, including her work for children Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/32088422
info_outline
Bonus 01: Louise Morrish On Her Unusual Publishing Journey
11/04/2024
Bonus 01: Louise Morrish On Her Unusual Publishing Journey
Charlie and Louise Morrish discuss the extensive efforts the latter went to in order to be published, the networking she did prior to that, and how she's giving back to the writing community. Please note there is a very mild swear word at the end of this episode. General references: Owner Gary is Gary Clark of The Interland series Books mentioned by name or extensively: Louise Morrish: Operation Moonlight Louise Morrish: Women Of War The Writer's And Artists' Yearbook Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 17th July 2024; published 4th November 2024 Where to find Louise online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 01:11 The early days of Louise's writing and the Faber Academy course 03:54 The importance of networking with others 05:32 Struggling to get anywhere, submitting to the Penguin Random House First Novel Competition, and winning 12:27 Persevering in the face of rejection 14:30 Class, and, then, novels in the drawer 17:53 The process Louise used when submitting to all the agents and talking about shyness and gaining confidence 27:16 More on the writing groups Louise runs and 'giving back' 31:52 About Louise's books, Operation Moonlight, and Women Of War 37:07 Being a librarian and seeing your own books in the libraries Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/33735177
info_outline
108: Mark Stay (The Witches Of Woodville)
10/28/2024
108: Mark Stay (The Witches Of Woodville)
Charlie and Mark Stay (The Witches Of Woodville) discuss writing humour into wartime, using period-correct language as well as slang, why community is important and how much we've lost over the decades, and the metric ton of projects he has on the go. Please note there are various uses of very minor curse words. General references: I spoke to Jacquie Bloese in episode 101 I spoke to Lucy Barker in episode 96 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Becky Brown: Blitz Spirit C K McDonnell: The Stranger Times Constance Miles: Mrs Miles's Diary Dennis Knight: Harvest Of Messerschmitts Mark Stay: The Crow Folk Mark Stay: Babes In The Wood Mark Stay: The Ghost Of Ivy Barn Mark Stay: The Holly King Mark Stay: The Corn Bride Mark Stay: The End Of Magic Mark Stay: The End Of Dragons Mark Stay and Mark Oliver: Back To Reality Nella Last: Nella Last's War Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 19th June 2024; published 28th October 2024 Where to find Mark online: || || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:25 Where the series might go in terms of number of books 03:14 Jam roly poly, getting bell ringing correct, and the forthcoming inclusion of the Morris Dancers in a pivotal role 05:34 The very first beginnings of the Witches of Woodville series 10:05 All about Faye and her relative immaturity 13:10 Widening the scope beyond humour to be more serious 16:02 Creating Miss Charlotte and Mrs Teach 18:10 Does Mark have future plots in mind? 18:49 The characters of the community of Woodville, starting with a question about the librarian 22:45 On Bertie's Battle of Britain diary 26:35 The language in the books - repetitions, and old-fashioned phrases 30:34 Mark's inclusion of the work of German artist, Hannah Höch 32:57 Grief as a theme 36:39 Miss Charlotte's sight and not wanting to make people invincible 41:19 Mark's use of real people in the series, and where you might find pieces of himself in his work. Mark also talks about how we've lost a sense of community 48:05 Mark's time co-hosting The Bestseller Experiment Podcast, why he moved on, and the various projects he's planning 53:54 More about Mark's current film project Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/32088402
info_outline
107: Jessica Bull (Miss Austen Investigates)
10/14/2024
107: Jessica Bull (Miss Austen Investigates)
Charlie and Jessica Bull (Miss Austen Investigates) discuss Jane Austen! The mysteries in her books, what and how she read, her likely views on slavery, her forgotten brother, the proposals of marriage she received (there were many!), and her life in her birthplace of Steventon. General references: Books mentioned by name or extensively: Ann Radcliffe: The Mysteries Of Udolpho Charlotte Lennox: The Female Quixote Claire Tomalin: Jane Austen: A Life Daniel Livesay: Children Of Uncertain Fortune Deirdre Le Faye (ed.) Jane Austen's Letters Frances Burney: Camilla Frances Burney: Cecelia James Edward Austen-Leigh: A Memoir Of Jane Austen Jane Austen: Sense And Sensibility Jane Austen: Pride And Prejudice Jane Austen: Northanger Abbey Jane Austen: Sanditon Jessica Bull: Miss Austen Investigates (The Hapless Milliner) Jessica Bull: Miss Austen Investigates: A Fortune Most Fatal Lucy Worsley: Jane Austen At Home Henry James: Tom Jones Margaret Edgeworth: Belinda Matthew Gregory Lewis: The Monk PD James: Death Comes To Pemberley Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 29th April 2024; published 14th October 2024 Where to find Jessica online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 02:35 Jessica's love of and study of Jane Austen 05:30 Expanding on Jessica's statement that a lot of Austen involves mystery 10:45 Were you ever worried about how people might view your Jane Austen, her silliness? 17:15 The importance of including, in the novel, what Jane Austen was reading 21:11 Where Cowper, Austen's favourite poet, comes into it, and we begin to discuss Austen's views of slavery and abolition, and Jessica's response to such 27:04 The price of books in those days! 28:51 We discuss a ton about Steventon, Austen's birth place - Jessica's recreation of the house and our own visits to the location 32:57 Talking about the other family members, including Anna and, particularly, George and what we know about him 39:34 About the people Jessica had to cut from the book and how she's going to go forward in terms of including people later in the series 41:52 All about Jessica's fictional letters and the allusions to the real ones 45:22 What Jessica believes about Austen and Tom Lefroy's relationship and Austen's love live in general 49:53 Changing real events to suit the novel, as well as Austen's agency, and locations 53:20 Jessica's time in Hampshire, seeing Chawton and how it inspired her 54:57 About book 2, A Fortune Most Fatal, and the fraudster Princess Caraboo 58:04 Brief notes on how many books may be in the series Photo credit: Cassie Burac Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/31103803
info_outline
106: Nikki Marmery (Lilith)
09/23/2024
106: Nikki Marmery (Lilith)
Charlie and Nikki Marmery (Lilith) discuss her epic tale that looks from the start of the Genesis story all the way to our present day, showing how the biblical stories did away with an all-important goddess for women - Yahweh's wife - and the consequences that has had. There is discussion, too, on the Gnostic gospels, various mythologies, and environmentalism. General references: Jeremiah 7:18 says: "The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven, and they pour out drink offerings to other gods." About Asherah poles, which Charlie notes, there are many references in the Bible. One such is Deuteronomy 16:21: "Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the Lord your God." Jennifer Saint's episode where she mentions Sarah Clegg is is 95 The quote from St Paul Nikki includes is from 1 Timothy 2:12 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Francesca Stavrakopoulou: God: An Anatomy John Milton: Paradise Lost Nikki Marmery: On Wilder Seas Nikki Marmery: Lilith Sarah Clegg: Women's Lore The Bible Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 18th April 2024; published 23rd September 2024 Where to find Nikki online: || || || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 00:01:36 The inspiration - the way the goddess Asherah, god's wife, was taken out of tradition, and the icons that have survived through time 00:04:23 Is there a way Asherah might've been able to continue as a worshipped goddess longer than she did? 00:10:13 All about Nikki's character of Lilith and how the original faiths saw men and women as equal 00:18:25 Nikki's employment of other myths and religions, how they they interacted, and the origins of now-Christian symbols 00:24:49 Nikki's inclusion of Ereskigal, goddess of the Underworld in Sumerian mythology 00:28:41 Nikki's effective dismissal of Heaven and her historical and Biblical reasoning 00:34:23 The environmental aspect of the book 00:37:12 How Nikki's Eden and the events therein are just a small part of the wider world, and, also, Noah's Ark in this context 00:42:50 Nikki's Biblical language. We then move on to her character of Samael specifically 00:48:41 The varied inclusions of Jezebel and Salome 00:53:04 Nikki's depiction of Jesus and using the Gnostic gospels 00:59:51 Nikki's religious background 01:02:07 Brief notes on what Nikki's planning to write next Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/31103773
info_outline
105: Natalie Jenner (Every Time We Say Goodbye)
09/09/2024
105: Natalie Jenner (Every Time We Say Goodbye)
Charlie and Natalie Jenner (Every Time We Say Goodbye) discuss the war years and 1950s Italian film industry and the Vatican's authority over it, changing working practices after being accused of discrimination, and including still-living celebrities in your book. General references: I talked to Natalie about her previous book, Bloomsbury Girls, in episode 65 A similar quote of Kurt Vonnegut's is "Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages." I talked to Liz Fenwick about the map girls in episode 100 Books mentioned by name or extensively: Charles Dickens: Our Mutual Friend Charles Dickens: A Tale Of Two Cities Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The Last Days Of Pompeii Henry James: The Portrait Of A Lady Jane Austen: Pride And Prejudice Jane Austen: Emma Joe Klein: Primary Colors Natalie Jenner: The Jane Austen Society Natalie Jenner: Bloomsbury Girls Natalie Jenner: Every Time We Say Goodbye Natalie Jenner: Austen At Sea Sophia Loren: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow My Life Zadie Smith: The Fraud Zoe Wheddon: Jane Austen's Best Friend Buy the books: || Release details: recorded 11th April 2024; published 9th September 2024 Where to find Natalie online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 00:01:52 The different inspirations for the book - old films, Natalie's character Vivian from her previous book, Bloomsbury Girls, the WW2 refugees that lived at the Cinecittà movie studies and then used as extras (this turns into a longer discussion) 00:10:58 More about Cinecittà itself 00:13:08 The Vatican's past authority over the Italian film industry 00:17:59 How Natalie researches her books, and her love of Rome 00:29:30 John Lassiter, urgh! 00:34:20 The importance of Tabitha's story and how a reader's criticism changed how Natalie wrote 00:38:25 La Scolaretta and the stafetta - the young women messengers and assassins in WW2 Italy 00:44:45 Natalie's knowing, and the life of, Ray Holland, film-maker Jack Salvatori's son 00:52:28 Writing as characters celebrities who are still with us, with a focus on Sophia Loren 00:59:16 All about Natalie's forthcoming next book, Austen At Sea, which Charlie reckons will end up being her favourite of all Natalie's books 01:08:59 Natalie tells us why she likely won't write about Jane Austen herself Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/31103738
info_outline
Name Change: I Want Your Opinions!
09/04/2024
Name Change: I Want Your Opinions!
Or, if your app does not show links: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/8TGVG9F
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/32897527
info_outline
104: Matt Ottley (The Tree Of Ecstasy And Unbearable Sadness)
08/26/2024
104: Matt Ottley (The Tree Of Ecstasy And Unbearable Sadness)
Charlie and Matt Ottley (The Tree Of Ecstasy And Unbearable Sadness) discuss Matt's type I bipolar disorder and how it has influenced this, his latest book, and his life in general. As Matt is also a composer and illustrator and the book involves both, we also discuss in detail the creation of the music and artwork. Please note that there are mentions of child sexual abuse and attempted suicide in this episode. General references: Tina Wilson set up the Lester Prize Books mentioned by name or extensively: Matt Ottley: The Tree Of Ecstasy And Unbearable Sadness Buy the books: Release details: recorded 16th April 2024; published 26th August 2024 Where to find Matt online: || || Where to find Charlie online: || || || Discussions 00:01:36 The whys of the book - why this story, why produce it in this way, why now (this turns into a larger discussion of Matt's bipolar disorder and how it affects him) 00:13:18 Matt's musical initiative for children, The Sound Of Picture Books 00:19:45 The artistic process of the book, the artwork 00:24:35 The image of the pregnant mother in water, Matt's painting of water in general, and the elephants 00:29:08 The animals in terms of metaphors of unreality, evolution, and mania 00:32:32 Where Matt started in illustration, music, and writing - the discussion revolves mostly around music - and also inspirations 00:42:01 All about the music - composing, recording, the orchestra, choir, and so on 00:52:01 [An extract of music from the score, courtesy of Matt] 00:58:34 Discussing the narration and narrator, Matt's wife, Tina Wilson 01:02:04 The book's text - starting point and so on 01:04:38 Matt tells us about his childhood, family, and experience of bipolar growing up 01:09:34 What's next? (A variety of projects are discussed.) Photo credit: Tina Wilson Disclosure: If you buy books linked to my site, I may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops
/episode/index/show/wormholepodcast/id/31103713