How to Actually Forgive Someone (with Katharine Giovanni)
Release Date: 09/20/2025
Why Men Refuse to Admit They're Struggling
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
First aired September 6, 2026 Dennis Bairos oversees more than 29 fitness locations across Texas, and somewhere between the grand openings and the late-night emails, he noticed a pattern: he was the guy who'd rather miss a flight than admit he needed help, the coach whose sideline energy made his own wife ask if he was okay, and the traveler who'd rather squeeze in one more phone call than let 20 free minutes in a rental car go to waste. That pattern became his book, Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It!, a look at the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, and on...
info_outline
Why Your Nervous System Won't Let You Rest
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
First aired September 6, 2026 Dr. Charleanea Arellano has spent over 30 years as a clinical psychologist and leadership coach, but the framework she's best known for now, the Embodied Narrative Framework, didn't come from a textbook. It came from putting away laundry five years ago and noticing her own body bracing for impact, for no reason at all, at age 55, after decades of actually being safe. Dr. Arellano built her career studying how high-achieving women lead while carrying nervous systems shaped by trauma, and by the added weight of managing how their race, sexuality, or gender is...
info_outline
Why Business Leaders Need Negotiation Skills
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
First aired August 23, 2026 Annette Mullin spent 24 years with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, nine of them as a crisis negotiator, eventually leading one of the busiest negotiation teams in the country — averaging over 100 call-outs a year. She worked patrol, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before spending her final years as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history. Now a negotiation instructor and coach...
info_outline
Why Comedy Might Be the Best Medicine For Mental Health
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
First aired August 16, 2026 For over a decade, Dave Mowry couldn't get out of bed, couldn't shower, and couldn't walk to his own mailbox without waiting until dark so a neighbor wouldn't catch the look in his eyes. In 1994, a psychotic break sent the successful businessman and family man into a depression so deep it cost him his house, his career, and 14 years he calls his "lost years." He slept in his clothes for months at a time. At parties, he'd stand against the wall and pray no one came over to talk to him. Then, at his wife's urging, he walked into a stand-up comedy class for people...
info_outline
Why Imposter Syndrome Keeps Leaders Stuck
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
In this episode, Dana is joined by Kurt Bush, a trauma-informed coach who helps leaders move from imposter syndrome to authentic confidence. Kurt shares his own journey with imposter syndrome, from feeling like a fraud in corporate leadership meetings to realizing his true calling. He explains that to make a change, the pain of staying the same must become greater than the pain of changing, a threshold many of us fear crossing. Kurt introduces the ERT (Encounter + Reflection = Transformation) framework, a practical approach to help you get unstuck. He reveals why the first step to moving...
info_outline
Your Midlife 'Crisis' Might Be Burnout (with Jody Brooks)
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
A midlife crisis isn't actually a crisis. That's the challenge Jody Brooks puts to anyone who's ever felt lost, restless, or quietly convinced something's wrong with them somewhere around 40 or 50: what looks like burnout, and what people love to write off as a freakout, is more often a calling. His own arrived at lunchtime at the office, buzzing canteen and all, when he found himself sitting in a restroom cubicle, crying so hard he could barely breathe. No brutal meeting that morning. No disaster. Just the quiet moment his body picked to file its formal complaint: burnout wasn't a "rough...
info_outline
How You Can Find Hope After Rock Bottom (Aaron Ryan)
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
Two in the morning. Sitting on the toilet, clothed, bawling into a pillow, because a broken PC was the last thing standing between him and the self-employed life he wanted so badly he could feel it in his teeth. That's where my guest this week hit rock bottom: not one dramatic collapse, but months of computer problems piling on top of a dream that felt like it was never going to happen. A client shared one quote with him that day, and Aaron Ryan has carried it in his back pocket for almost twenty years since: "The temptation to quit is always greatest just before your greatest success." Aaron...
info_outline
How Your Body's Intuition Can Heal You (Rebecca Russell)
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
Four years of chronic pain. A fibromyalgia diagnosis. Muscle relaxers, pain pills, migraines, MRI after MRI. And through all of it, my guest this week kept hearing the same quiet voice: something doesn't fit. Rebecca Russell listened to it anyway, tracked down a neurosurgeon, and asked for one test nobody else had run: a discogram. It found the bulging disc that had been the actual problem the whole time, and eighty-five percent of her symptoms disappeared after surgery. Rebecca is a metabolism and lifestyle coach, certified essential oil specialist, and author who's spent more than three...
info_outline
Why Successful Entrepreneurs Set Boundaries (Chris Shurian)
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
My guest this week has a word for himself I'd never heard before: "entrepreholic." Over 39 years, Chris Shurian has built, operated, bought, broken, and resurrected companies in remodeling, construction, manufacturing, real estate development, foreign investment, hospitality, restaurants, and retail. He's also survived cancer and finished two Ironmans. And in 2008, when the economy crashed, he was so extended, so "all in, all in, all in," as he puts it, that he spent the next two years meeting with his banker once a week just to survive it. We talk about what it actually felt like to launch...
info_outline
Why Loneliness Hits the Young Hardest (Dr. Anthony Silard)
Phoenix and Flame Podcast
Picture a hand-written sign taped to a bus stop in Japan: "I'm 87, I don't have a family. Would some family take me?" No one answered. He died a couple of months later. That story, from my guest this week, is the starkest snapshot I've ever heard of what loneliness researcher Dr. Anthony Silard calls a global epidemic, and the twist is who it's hitting hardest: not the oldest of us, but the youngest. Anthony is a professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and an internationally recognized authority on relationships, emotional intelligence, and personal transformation, and he's the...
info_outlineA gentle note before you dive in: this conversation touches on sexual assault. It's okay to pause, skip ahead, or come back to this one another time.
Katharine Giovanni attempted suicide in the eighth grade. She grew up in what she calls a "pickled family" (both parents were alcoholics), got bullied for not fitting into anybody's box, and spent years wearing her survivor story like an outfit: I lived through this, look at me. Then her mother fell down a flight of stairs, dried out in the hospital, and the two of them spent a few years closer than sisters, before her mother died of breast cancer. That was Katharine's flashpoint. She got sober (35 years and counting), and eventually built an entire method for how to forgive someone, even the person you're positive doesn't deserve it.
I've watched enough people get told to "just forgive" and sent off with zero instructions to know how empty that advice is. Katharine is a three-time bestselling author of more than a dozen books, including her latest, The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power, and she's the first to say the unforgivable doesn't have to be forgiven right away, or maybe ever. Her method starts with the easy people and works up to the hard ones, ranking everyone on a scale of one to ten and never skipping straight to your tens.
We get into her exact forgiveness mantra, why forgiveness is 100 percent compatible with never speaking to someone again, and why (yes, you read that right) you can absolutely forgive someone who's already dead. This is forgiveness with the boundaries left on, and that's exactly the kind I can get behind.
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUCd3I_EAY4
In this episode
- Why "just forgive them" advice fails, and the step-by-step method Katharine built instead
- The difference between forgiving someone and reconciling with them (you can do one without ever doing the other)
- Katharine's forgiveness mantra, and how to use it alone at home in under five minutes
- Why you can forgive someone you'll never speak to again, including people who have already died
- Why "forgive and forget" is a myth, and what actually changes in your body when you truly let go
- How forgiveness and boundaries work together instead of against each other
Timestamps
- (00:01) Welcome and intro: meet forgiveness coach and author Katharine Giovanni
- (01:33) Why everyone tells you to forgive and nobody teaches you how
- (02:00) Katharine's "pickled family," being bullied, and a suicide attempt in eighth grade
- (05:06) Her mother's fall, rehab, and death from breast cancer: the flashpoint that got her sober
- (06:16) Reconciliation isn't the goal: "just because I forgive you doesn't mean I want a relationship with you"
- (09:43) Stop letting them live rent free in your head
- (15:03) The forgiveness mantra, step by step
- (15:30) The rule: start with the easy people, work up to the "tens," never more than ten at a time
- (20:12) How to forgive the truly unforgivable
- (21:04) Forgiveness, justice, and boundaries: why they're not the same thing
- (24:03) Forgiving the pieces of a memory: the desk, the playground, even the year itself
- (25:32) What happened in Katharine's body when she forgave too many people at once
- (33:42) Where to find Katharine and her book
About Katharine Giovanni
Katharine Giovanni is a three-time award-winning bestselling author and speaker who has written more than a dozen books, including her latest, The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power. A survivor of stage three breast cancer and a turbulent childhood, she spent years teaching people how to run concierge businesses before retiring from that work in 2020 to focus on the forgiveness method she developed in 2021.
Learn more at Katharine's website, or connect with her on LinkedIn.
Favorite quotes
"Forgiveness is selfish. You do it for you. You don't do it for them." —Katharine Giovanni
"Just because I forgive you doesn't mean I want a relationship with you." —Katharine Giovanni
"Stop letting them live rent free in your head. You need to forgive them and move on." —Katharine Giovanni
Resources mentioned
- The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power by Katharine Giovanni: her latest book, and the source of the step-by-step forgiveness method discussed throughout the episode
- KatharineGiovanni.com: Katharine's website
- Katharine Giovanni on LinkedIn
Related episodes
- The Jungle of Forgiveness and Boundaries - Can They Co-Exist?: Dana's own earlier deep dive into the exact question this episode answers.
- Getting Pulled Into the Past: Our Shame Response and the Impact of Unprocessed Trauma: more on why old wounds keep firing until you actually process them, the same territory Katharine's method covers.
- How to Reclaim Your Power from Shame: a newer conversation on taking your power back from old pain, a natural next listen after this one.
Subscribe & connect
If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.
Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.
Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz