Remarkable World Commentary Episode #49: Interview with Larry L. Lewis, Jr., Senior Lead Technologist, Booz Allen Hamilton

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #49: Interview with Larry L. Lewis, Jr., Senior Lead Technologist, Booz Allen Hamilton | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-06-2025/

In this candid, forward-looking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime friend and mentor Larry L. Lewis, Jr., tracing his path from the “Olympic-sized pool” of CSUN 1998 to helping bring the BrailleNote to market at HumanWare, leading sales at Optelec, founding Flying Blind and publishing Top Tech Tidbits, shaping Section 508 mobile testing at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and now guiding a roughly forty-person accessibility team as Senior Lead Technologist at Booz Allen Hamilton. Larry explains how his dual grounding in English and blind rehabilitation forged a communication-first approach, recalls the breakthrough of internet browsing on the BrailleNote that unlocked Bookshare and NLS for readers, and revisits personal moments—from teaching Donna her first iPhone to opening professional doors—that anchor their decades-long mentorship.

The conversation ranges from Brazilian jiu-jitsu as “physical chess” that taught patience, restraint, and relationship-building, to the hard realities of marrying cybersecurity and accessibility, where secure, accessible interfaces reduce malware risks and AI tools can fill gaps when screen readers miss critical alerts. Larry offers a provocative near-term vision—screen readers evolving into subscription “bots” rather than installed software—alongside a modern classroom toolkit centered on the camera, Aira/Be My Eyes, mobility apps like Voice Vista, and, soon, smarter glasses. He closes with the philosophy that defines his legacy: empowerment through technology, using the right tools to get the most out of life at work, in travel, and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Podcast Commentator: Greetings.

Podcast Comentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every as bit remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Larry Lewis, I'd like to welcome you to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Larry is a longtime friend, mentor, and advisor, and we have traveled many roads over the years. Larry, I'd love to take listeners back to when we first met at CSUN or CSUN in 1998. What did that conference mean for your career at the time, and how did that networking there set the stage for the path that you have traveled since?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, thanks, Donna, it's a great question. And firstly, I want to thank you for the opportunity to be on Remarkable World, and I want to say hello to everybody who's listening. When I went to that conference a long time ago, 27 years ago, I was actually shifting out of a job with a nonprofit center who serves persons who are visually impaired. And it was in a in a tech role and assistive technology role, and was shifting into my first taste of of for profit working for humanware. So it was important for me. I was sort of finishing up that job while at the same time joining Humanware sort of sort of together. And it was necessary because up until then, I hadn't had a lot of networking outside of the state of Ohio in the United States. And so it was a bit overwhelming. It's kind of like just learning how to, as we say in the United States, dog paddle, which isn't really swimming. We just kind of paddle around and being thrown into an Olympic sized pool you know, with you know, where you're sharing lanes and you're not trying to run into people but you're just trying to keep your head above water and, and and move forward and kind of take it all in so that I look at it as dog paddling in, in a little, little secluded lake, jumping into an Olympic sized pool if we want to use swimming as an analogy.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so I joined Humanware prior to the Braille note days. It's one of the reasons they brought me on was to bring Braille note to market. And so I was just sort of in fire hydrant mode, taking in everything, just getting acclimated to wow, there's a lot going on outside of the state of Ohio meeting all these different vendors, meeting, meeting professionals like yourself and just getting acclimated to all these people to where I just. I can remember the final evening of the conference, and I think I stupidly decided to take a redeye home to get home. And I just was just exhausted because not and I'm pretty high energy person, but it was just taking in so many different people and so many different vendors and so much technology. And things were quite a bit different back then. I mean, the internet was just sort of beginning to blossom. We were we were in the late nineties.com boom in the US. So there was a lot going on with just all these companies that were developing for the internet and networking and hardware and screen readers were trying to move from DOS to windows still. And, you know, this was like this. The talk about it now, it's like, wow, man, so much has changed. I mean, the equipment that that we had to carry back then I, I jokingly tell people I got into weightlifting because I wanted to sell adaptive technology.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You know, I should mention to listeners, you know, with you and I having met at CSUN in 1998, was the beginning of a very, very wonderful relationship where you have become not just my friend, but my mentor, my advisor. Hey, you taught me how to use the I devices. Remember those days.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I do and that that was probably 2010 ish, 11 ish when we I wanted to take a couple years to see if Apple was serious about sticking with this, because in the 1980s, Apple, with a lot of younger folks don't realize is Apple used to have a real assistive technology push in the 80s with the Braille, with the with the Apple two and the Apple two. E there is an old product called Braille Edit back in the 80s. And then when Microsoft came on, they just ditched accessibility. So for those of us who were burned by Apple once, there's a lot of us who were like they've got this iPhone now, are they going to stick with it? Are they going to make it? And so I think it was about 2010, 2011, after about 3 or 4 years of updates, I was like, yeah, they're they're in it for the long haul. And that's when I became a little bit more involved in the mobile side of the house, both from an At training but then also dealing with, you know, accessible apps and those sorts of things. So yeah, I remember we spent spent a fair amount of time just working through it. And you were you were you were a very good learner. And that when, when you figured that when you figured it out, it stuck with you. And then we just built onto it from there.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I'm very, very appreciative of this. Thank you very much. Yeah. So you hold degrees in both English literature and a blind rehabilitation. How have those disciplines blended to influence the way you write? Technical guides, teach professionals and sell the accessibility story.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I began with English because I wasn't, as I jokingly say, didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And so I knew, I knew I could take an English degree. It would be versatile. Kind of almost like a marketing or communications degree. But I've always loved to read. But what I learned, what I learned with English is the importance of both verbal and written communication, as you mentioned. When I finished my master's in English, I was like, you know, I really don't want to spend my life in a classroom just teaching literature, although it would be fun to some degree. And I was at I was at Northern Illinois University for my English graduate work. And this sort of noticed that they had this program designed in their special education curriculum to work with a, with a variety of different types of individuals who are, who are blind. I focus more on adults, although I did my practicum with the Chicago Public School system as part of my degree because I've also liked like working with youth as well. And I wanted to figure out a way to make lives better. And I felt like I could do that more by parlaying what I had. I knew I could take the skills that that came with the English degree, and I could make them work to solve problems. And so and so there are a number of different problems that I saw with, with blind rehabilitation from the ability of one to sell themselves, whether they're, whether they're applying for entry to a university or something or whether they're applying for a job or what have you. And so I also there was this convergence of technology at the time.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I mean, I remember in 1991, moving moving from Apple to dos and and some of the the vocal. I mean I was using vocalize before JAWS because I thought vocalize did the the best job in dos that became window-eyes after after vocalize. They were really in my mind the frontrunner with DOS. And I also was introduced to the Braille and speak and my gosh, yeah. So I mean, I had this little device in my hand and again, lifting weights because I carried a Perkins Brailler around same as the same as the tech equipment. So I was like, wow, I don't have to carry this Perkins Brailler. And it's not that I got rid of my Perkins, but being able to take notes versus recording classes and just doing all this hard stuff became so much easier. And so I'm like, there has to be a way to take the ability to communicate with the emergence of assistive technology and then and then somehow parlay that into a career designed to help folks via via from an educational standpoint, be it for from a vocational standpoint, as far as getting work, what does it mean to have an accessible workplace? And so it just all kind of came together I was able to sort of get a lot of my work behaviors sorted out. As somebody who is a pretty free spirit in my 20s was able to get rid of a lot of my bad habits and so forth and begin to become a model employee during that time. When I worked for the, for the Cleveland Sight Center and then when I got the call and had the opportunity to move into a product management position with human, where I felt ready.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It was based on my educational background, and I've been in sales since I've been in since since sixth grade. I actually won a school contest selling selling suncatchers for a fundraiser, and that's when I got the sales bug. I was selling these little cell suncatchers. I blew out my competitors in school and won this one. This very clever. We call them in the United States. Ghetto blasters. They're like these stereos. Yes. And. Yeah. And so that's when that's when I'm like I think I could get used to selling anything. And then in school, I sold against the vending machines. I sold soda and snacks out of my room, and I undercut, I undercut, I undercut the vending machines. Everybody was happy. I was making money on the side. And so I've always liked to sell just the thrill of selling, but also the thrill of problem solving. Like you want to. You want to save a quarter on that can of soda. You walk down to Larry's room versus going to the vending machine. So I've always I mean, I've sold everything from talking Bibles to enterprise level accessibility services. If it can be sold, I will, I will, I will get to know my audience and I will find a way to sell it. And I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just something I enjoy. And I think I've done it in a fairly responsible way. I'm not a huckster. I you I usually always say if I, if I'm pushing it, it's because I either use it or I believe in the use of it.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I have to admire, you know, I am not a salesperson. So, you know, like. And I bought a few things from you, I bought what did I buy? The Polaris I bought from you?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I bought Polaris, you bought a few Braille displays, I think.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. The talking Bible. So there you go. I know all about you.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You you know, all the way back to the talk. I had a company at CSUN 2009, I think it was Aurora ministries or something like that. Yeah. Like, hey, I'm like, well, hey, I read the Bible, I can help you with that. And it's like, so we we sold a lot of talking Bibles right alongside a very expensive braille displays, and had a good time with it.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great great great great. So beyond the office, you practice Brazilian jiu jitsu, right? How has that martial art discipline informed the resilience and problem solving you bring to accessibility work? Yeah.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I have spent a lot of time in martial arts, and for the past 19 years, it's been strictly Brazilian jiu jitsu when I had a little bit of vision. When I was younger, I trained in karate and more traditional martial arts, taekwondo. Oh my God. I also wrestled in high school, which I consider a martial art, even though it's a lot of folks don't. It's it's it's one of the oldest martial arts wrestling. So I wrestled in high school. I'm a very active person because I'm a very hyper person. And so if I'm not active I have too much time on my hands. It's just good for me to be active. So I've always followed grappling and that sort of thing. And the nice thing about jiu jitsu versus some of the other traditional striking martial arts is there's a path for people who are blind, both with jiu jitsu and judo to, to fully participate and compete and, and just really have a good time with it. And so I to be honest with you, when I got involved with it, I was looking for a change to my, my fitness routine. I was involved in a lot of lifting and cardio and stuff, and I'm like, I want to get more into group activities again instead of just going to the gym and grinding it out by myself. So I got involved with it.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And what it has taught me is that the whole premise behind jiu jitsu, the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu, is for somebody who is Possibly more vulnerable or smaller. It gives them a way to stay safe and to control where a conflict goes. The conflict can end pretty quickly. If the if the person is able to subdue and whatever, you know, it's just over, or it can end pretty brutally if if the person doesn't want to stop, you know, arms can get broken. You know, people can get choked unconscious. There's a there's a it's all depends on what the what the assailant. The assailant wants it to go. So that's the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu. The sport. The sport aspect is you've got people who are skilled, equally skilled, equally ranked, and they're competing against each other. And that that's fun, too. But jiu jitsu is very much like a chess match where if if somebody is applying, shifting their body one way and you want it to go another way, you have to shift your body a certain way. So it's very it's kind of like physical chess. If you want to think of it that way, the more you get into it. And I have been doing it almost 20 years now. So I find it it's stimulating both mentally and physically. But what also makes it nice is I have learned through jiu jitsu that it's not always okay in life, even when you're upset or whatever.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It's not okay to burn a bridge. It's not okay to unload. It's not when you know what you can physically do to another person. The more you learn in jiu jitsu, like maybe somebody just having a bad day. So if I get walking out, walking out. There was a person a few months ago who had had too much to drink and bumped into me, and I just redirected. I just redirected their body and it was cool. They didn't mean to, you know, jiu jitsu. Larry might have handled that a lot differently. You know, I was just leaving a pub and the person just had a lot to drink and bumped into me, and he might have just been having a bad day. He wasn't a jerk about it. The same can happen with relationships at work relationships with family. And so you have to you have to ask yourself what? What could be happening to cause a person to behave a certain way? And does it really pay to do something that you can't undo? In jiu jitsu? Maybe I can subdue somebody without breaking an arm. Maybe breaking an arm is not necessary. Or maybe not. Choking somebody is not necessary. If you can just subdue them and they calm down and they're like, all right, all right.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: We're like you. You don't have to put the foot on the gas the whole time in any sort of conflict, be it verbal, be it I'm going to get. There's been times when I ran my own company where I got really shafted by other resellers like this, just undercut and not treated very well. And it's like, all right, I could be out to get them and waste all my energy on that. Or I can just stay the course and do what I know is right. Maybe point it out that I know what happened. And, you know, I still have relationships with people like you who've known me a long time and know what I'm about. And and so and so I think, I mean, jiu jitsu is just. It's been such a life. I always tell people my my Christian faith and my jiu jitsu, and then I also practice, practice yoga so that I can keep doing jiu jitsu because I'm getting older. Those three things have really helped shape me my mindset, how I treat others and just how I behave. And it's like, hey, if things get if things get out of hand, they're pretty real. We have a we have a mutual friend who will vouch for me that I can handle it. But we knowing. Knowledge is power and knowing what you can do doesn't mean you have to do it.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like your analogy to jujitsu being physical chess because I play chess.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So, so if I move is one way and you're trying to move and then the checkmate is if you can make the other individual tap because they're in a position they can't get away of, away from, and it's starting to hurt. And so they would tap the matter, tap you, and then you would start again. It's a submission that would be your checkmate in jiu jitsu.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. All right. Now you've worked for manufacturers like Humanware and Optilete. Optilete founded. You founded Flying Blind, LLC, and now you serve as senior lead technologist at Booz Allen Hamilton. How have those very different fashion, different vantage points shaped the way you approach accessibility today?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So when I started with Humanware and it was very much a 100% at assistive technology, we were creating things with, with Humanware, it was the Braillenote with Optiflex. We had bought Alva and we'd done some different, different things like that. And so it was always about how could we, how could we make a piece of technology better? And then sell that technology. And so I started in product management to help with the braille note shifted into sales because I couldn't say no to sales I was selling even when I was a product manager. So I was like, let me into sales. And so but Flying Blind came about because I began to see that you could have the best part Art of assistive technology. And you could have the best assistive technology, but if content wasn't accessible, it's kind of like having having the best car ever without a paved road. Okay. So you could have a Corvette or any fancy car Lamborghini or whatever. But if you're, if you're driving over logs and through streams because there's not a bridge to drive on, it really doesn't matter how nice the car was. And so I liken digital accessibility to removing those logs and removing those, those dirt trails and paving so that you can get from where you are to where you want to be.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so we're flying blind. It was a mixture of still had my finger in at because of the relationships with the vendors also wanted to create a low cost. You know, we sold a lot of used equipment to people who couldn't afford it, but they were scared to buy used equipment because they didn't have somebody like me checking it out first, so we built that out quite a bit. But then we got more into the iPhone stuff and mobile accessibility then began to partner and do some contract work with a number of different companies, one of which was Vespero, who owns Freedom Scientific, and I actually, I actually had a stint for a few years while wrapping up Flying Blind working for the Paciello Group in an accessibility sales role. So that was sort of the connection between flying blind and where I'm at now. Where I'm at now is I manage a team of for roughly 40 accessibility specialists across different federal projects, mostly federal. Occasionally we do some commercial work and so forth. And it's from everything from auditing to training to implementation of policy and whatnot. And so they're all kind of been building blocks where you start with at you begin to bake ATN with accessibility and those sorts of things, and then you begin to shift left more to accessibility.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: With my work with the Paciello group. And that prepared me to get into a situation once I'd been in more of a direct sales role with these services being able to shift to more of a business development role at Booz Allen. And so they have all kind of I mean, to the to the person who doesn't know me, it's like, oh, this guy jumps around every 5 or 6 years. Well, I do, but but there's sort of a method to it. I'm not a person. I'm probably undiagnosed ADHD. I can't do the same thing for too long. So but there's a it kind of tells a story if, if, if you unpack it that way. So that's what I'm doing now. And it's really helped shape me as a leader because I'm dealing with a lot of different people, and I have a great team, but a lot of having a lot of it is my hiring practices and also setting expectations that I want. I want folks to have fun, but I want I want folks to get their work done. And I don't expect folks to work any harder than I would work or to do anything that I wouldn't do. And I lead I really lead from the front by example.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I just remembered you were the one who introduced me to Robert. What's his last name?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Robert J. Robert O. Robert J.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robert and I bought the dolphin product.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And I always gave Robert his props. He, in my opinion, is the best salesperson in the industry. He is fantastic. And traveling with him. I think I told you one of my trips up to Quebec City in January, and I'm like, what did I do to deserve this? Robert? It was

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Lordy.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, it's like he's taking this, this American up to Quebec City in January. And but yeah, Robert is great. I haven't talked to him for a while. I, I know he retired a while back, but learned a lot from Robert and he's a he's a great guy.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: He is he is now from early note takers to modern smartphones, technology for blind users has evolved dramatically. Which milestone device or software release do you think was most transformative and why?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So for me I would have to say, and it it was passed by, but. I would say internet browsing on the braillenote. It was passed by because what internet browsing on the braillenote meant was we could then tie into bookshare and NLS and download books.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. And so again, back to the weightlifting analogy. I used to carry around a lot of Braille books.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell me.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I got to. Got to take a break from weightlifting and just carry my Braille note around with a bunch of books on an SD card. So to me, being a part of just getting that, that modem and the original Braille note to work before there was Wi-Fi access to download a book was truly a phenomenal like that. I mean, there's been flashier things that I've been a part of, just beta testing and dealing with the iPhone and apps, and we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But as far as my personal involvement in something, Being able to move from the hard copy book or even just like transferring a book to a device like you used to be able to do on, on the Braille light and some of the, some of those devices, the Braille and so forth, the old school devices.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: That was truly revolutionary because we we took out a step and we got it from the internet and that will that in my career is one of the best feelings ever, being able to bring that to market.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for me, like being able to put things on an SD card, a huge yes on a tiny SD card, and then I go around using my victory stream to read the thing and listen to it. I think, oh my gosh. And when I say to my mom, mom, see this little card? It has books on it. She looks at me and she says, what are you talking? So then I have to explain it to her. Yeah.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So that for me again, I've been involved in some great things. I mean, I was on the front end of the wireless braille displays, connecting to things and all that, and that was all fun. And then obviously some of the, the I device and just dealing with apps and those sorts of things. But as far as my involvement direct involvement, it had to be connected to the internet first so that we can second download materials. It was big in education back then.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Okay. Now Flying Blind LLC and top tech tidbits became, you know, trusted resources for thousands of blind tech users. Yeah. What problem were you trying to solve when you launched them, and what impact are you most proud of from that era?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So the problem, we sort of touched on that. It's like you've got 80. You have an accessible content. What are our strategies for getting great at to work with accessible content. And so I would say let's see as far as my most favorite projects to be involved.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, are you there? Hello.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: For I where we developed courseware on specific to effective effective using the internet. Effective use of the internet. Right. I'm just going back in time and remembering this. And then there was also there was another course on developing listening skills for employment situations. So I've done a few different courses for Hadley, but then probably my my crowning jewel for Flying Blind was, published in iOS in the classroom. Because I had been, I had developed a some professional development courses that I was taken on the road and working with educators on how to introduce these devices in the classroom. And then AFB had me come on to author and publish a book through AFB. So those were both I would say AFB might have won out with Hadley. No disrespect to Hadley. They were both fun, but those were probably the first and second, like my two favorite projects, aside from the day to day work of Flying blind.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Wow. Now, after 14 years as publisher, you handed stewardship stewardship of top tech tidbits over to a new team. What did you learn about sustainability and succession in community run projects, and how can other advocates set their own initiatives?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah, so there's three parts to that answer. The first part is I, after 14 years, was beginning to get a little tired of it. I was also working for the Paciello group, so it was becoming difficult for me to oversee an objective publication because of my role there. And I also just wasn't I mean, I was just full blown invested in that, and I just, I, I had to just admit that this wasn't my passion, and it probably was something that I shouldn't be involved in anymore. So I think first is, are are you are you being effective? The second is if not, what are you going to do about it? And then the third thing is when you decide to hand something off. Enough. And I did a pretty good job of this. You have to hand it off and move on. You can't hand it off and and try to stay with a finger in it, because then you're always going to say, well, I would have done this or I would have done that. And so, you know, I had a good relationship with the, the backbone of, of the, of flying blinds web presence.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And you know, I really wasn't looking to make any money at it. I mean, I could have sold the list and the tidbits publication or tried to do it, but I really wasn't looking to make any money at it. I wanted just to to be sort of a sort of a revenue type hand-off and something where we could just keep it going. I had a fair way to exit where there was something in it for me to exit. But then when I when I flipped the switch and I exited, I was gone. Like, it's just like, I just like you. It's kind of like handing over the car keys, but still wanting to share Shared driving responsibilities. You can't do that. So you have to ask yourself, are you are you effective? If not, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to reignite your passion or are you going to go do something else? And if you decide to do something else, you need to focus on looking at your collaboration and then handing it off. And when you hand it off, you hand it off.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's something I need to to, to keep in mind myself. You know like when you decide to leave, leave. Do not look back.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Otherwise I would have had wrist ruining a good relationship with somebody who I've known a long time because I would have been questioning them and hassling them.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And why are you not doing this? Why are you doing that?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he wanted to take it in a slightly different direction than I than I was. I mean, it's just it's a different It's a different animal now. It's not better or worse. This is different.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's a different different thing. And yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in your current role as guide sorry. Let's start again. In your current role you guide complex federal and defense clients on digital accessibility. What unique challenges come with marrying security, scalability and usability in those environments. And what strategies have proven most effective for lasting change?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, there's a lot of intersectionality between cyber security and accessibility. And the biggest fallout is malware can be introduced inadvertently to situations. If you're dealing with a, with a cybersecurity Security application that's not accessible. Folks can go where they don't mean to go. And they can they can open up a whole can of worms. So my strategy, especially with defense, is first and foremost, you have to accept cybersecurity wins out every time over accessibility when it comes to keeping systems safe, whether we like it or not, cybersecurity is always going to win because we've got hackers from all over the world and blah, blah, blah. And it's like we have to just bow to the bow, the knee to cybersecurity. But having said that, if you can create interfaces that keep you secure while injecting accessibility into the mix, then you bring along your disabled clientele along for the ride and help them not be part of the problem. I don't I don't have the stats in front of me, but malware gets introduced quite a bit when people go where they're not supposed to go.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so that's how malware gets downloaded. It might get flagged, might not, or it gets flagged, and then your machine is all screwed up and you don't know what's happening. So a lot can be avoided if you have a secure portal that's also also accessible. But it's it's tricky. Like it's, it's it's not easy. And there's some times especially when you know, you're dealing with you know, certain situations and this, you know, information not getting out and so forth, where all of a sudden you could have a modal pop up on your screen. That's a flash modal to let you know that you're not where you're supposed to be, but your screen reader doesn't read it. Right. And so that's when I think some of these other tools that come into the equation some of the like be my eyes tools and some of these other types of AI tools. It's sort of a three way dance, because now we can bring AI into the mix to sort of bridge the gap between what is accessible and how do we maintain security.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh, you know, not too long ago I got caught. I mean, something came up on the screen, right? Right. Clue what it was. I was a bit sleepy that morning. I pressed enter and I got into big trouble.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. You. So, you know, you're you're I mean, unfortunately, you're a case study of why it's important to have accessibility as part of a cybersecurity plan.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do people realize that though?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, it's not realized a lot. And I mean, it's a chore for feds to realize it. But I think everybody, you know, a Cisco or any sort of company like that, they it's a it's a big deal. And I think there's a market for making that known. Because it's a, it's a big deal. And again, I think you know, controlling AI in such a way so that it can help you get out of situations like that. Is is key because, like, there's just a disconnect between your assistive technology provider, like a Jaws or a Freedom Scientific or a dolphin or whatever. And the folks who are making these, these applications that can that can crash your assistive technology.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Tell me about it. I fell into this trap twice in my lifetime.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, man.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want to go through that again. Sure. Now, your 2016 book, iOS in the classroom. It demystified mainstream tech for teachers of blind students. If you were updating that guide today, what new skills or apps would make your much teach list.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. So use of the camera. Use of AI applications like BMIs and IRA. And there's a handful of others out there. Some mobility applications. I use Voice Vista quite a bit. Yeah. So so I'll slow down. So there's the camera. There's also I have not dove into these smart glasses yet, although I'm getting close. Yeah. I wanted a year, year and a half to go by, so a lot of the bugs would get worked out. I wasn't looking to beta test anything. So I wanted to get a little bit more stability with Ray-Ban and some of these other companies out there. I am probably going to get involved with with smart glasses in the next couple of months. So camera slash smart glasses apps that involve improving your ability to navigate safely, but also AI specific apps, that allow you to do very simple things, like take a picture of your when you're traveling your hotel thermostat and get a layout of the buttons and be able to make it hotter or colder if you're in. If you're in Quebec City in January, you don't want to put the air on. You don't want to put the air on, right?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes yes yes yes. Oh gosh. Yes. Well, there's so many of these glasses on the market these days. You've got meta glasses. Smart. Yes, yes. I don't know which one to choose anymore.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, I'm figuring it out. I'll be happy to share when I make a make a decision, I'm getting to the point where I want things to calm down. I didn't. I don't always have to be on the front end anymore. I'll let some of. I've done plenty of that in my life. I'll let other folks beat up technology and work some of the bugs out. Yeah, and I'm getting to the point where I would like to be a little more hands free, because I do use my phone a lot. I mean, I use my I use my phone you know, travel around an airport to make sure if I'm at a gate number, taking a picture and having it tell me what it is. I mean, there are things I do with my camera, and I'm like, at some point I do want to be hands free. And just have have that. I just haven't done it yet.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I just find that being on your phone and walking through an airport, if there's too much white noise, it gets me into trouble.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It can be tricky. I mean, I have used IRA, those initial glasses on the Android phone, and, you know, I had to. You have to tether them up. This is before the wire. Wire, wire, free glass or wireless glasses. And it is pretty cool to be able to do that. But you do have to pay attention. And if you if you don't, you know, you could. We have a phrase in the US that we jokingly say, don't try this at home because it could be dangerous. So so I would say, don't try this at home all the time. But But that's why I'm wanting these glasses to be a little more streamlined. And I think we're getting close. And so I would love to get more involved in that, because I do love not waiting for a gate agent and to striking out on my own and finding my gate using the product like IRA, like it's fun. But at the same time I'm fairly active and fairly good about pretty good mobility, and I don't I don't mind some of the chaos that comes with being on the phone in an airport, but it might not be for everybody.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, it's not for me. But I love IRA. Yes. Yeah. And I might be testing the metal glasses someday. Very soon, but.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Good.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then there's the envision glasses as well.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So legacy can be a big word, right? When you reflect on three decades in this field, what accomplishments do you hope will still be making a difference ten years from now?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I would like people to remember me as a person who is not a programmer or a developer, but who leveraged technology to get the most out of life. And anything that I've done via like for note taking or iOS or working with a vendor to make their product more accessible or any of that sort of stuff, it all goes back to our tagline at Flying Blind was empowerment through technology. That was our tagline. And so I'm just an ordinary guy who likes jiu jitsu, likes going on hikes with my dogs, likes going to a ballgame, likes doing all these different types of things. And technology has made everything easier from ordering tickets to getting my boarding pass on my phone because I'm terrible about losing things. Back to the ADH thing again. And so I would want to be remembered as the guy that no matter what he did, whether he was selling or teaching or writing or managing the product or leading the team or whatever, he used technology to get the most out of life and and was a person who wasn't really defined by what he couldn't do, but what he could do.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I love that. I really like that philosophy, and I think I'm probably the same. I would use technology to get the most out of what I need in my life.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. I mean, I can chop it up with techie folks if I have to and talk about, you know, code remediation and stuff like that. I don't enjoy it. I tried to learn how to script write JAWS scripts, and I can do it enough to get into trouble, but I can't. I don't want to sit still and code like I don't. I don't want to sit still and write scripts or code. I'd rather be more on the what's happening with it and showing people and and interact. I'm not a backroom developer type and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not me.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, not speaking of ball games, Larry, I hope that you are supporting my team.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You know, any team that beats up the Yankees, I can become a Blue Jays fan really fast, I don't think. I think you have more support nationwide down here, except for Yankees fans. I think everybody's with when the Blue Jays get to the National League because I'm a Cubs fan, then we might have an issue. But for now, I hope the Blue Jays win the American League.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, it's looking good. I mean, they won the first two games tend to win handily. Yeah. I wonder what the Yankees are thinking right now.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I don't see how they come back. I mean, stranger things have happened, but they just need one more. And I hope they blow them out again. It couldn't happen to a nicer team. Oh.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: The Yankees fans are going to unsubscribe from this podcast now. Yes, I apologize for that.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Well that's okay. You're just telling me what's on your mind. That's all there is to it. Oh, Lordy. Well, the clock tells me we're coming towards an end here, but I wanted to ask you for your thoughts on where do you think we're going? Where is accessibility going? How is it going to fit into the landscape as we move forward? Especially like with with accessible apps.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well I think AI is a scary thing but it's a, it's a positive thing if you can utilize, you know, machine, you know, human machine learning which is what AI is if you can, if you can use it to solve problems rather than create them. So some of these, you know, screen readers are starting to build AI into telling you what pictures are. Yes, but but I think that will come a point where your screen reader will be a bot and you won't have to load software, and you'll be able to interact with your bot who will read the screen back to you, and you'll be able to type to the bot or talk to the bot. And if I were in the screen reader business, both both Freedom Scientific and Dolphin, I would ditch the downloading of software and begin to create a screen reader bot. That's my free advice for anybody on those teams that are listening.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think screen readers, the screen reader, developers, and manufacturers need to be paying more attention and looking for ways to get more involved with AI? Do you think or.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I think, I think they are.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They think they are. They're days over a screen readers.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I mean, as we know them and I think they need to accept that. I mean, I don't work for TPG or the Paciello Group anymore. They're owned by the same group who owns Freedom Scientific. I am sick and tired of paying 15, 1600 bucks for a piece of software to run on $1,000 laptop. I'm tired of it. It's not that I can't afford to. It's that it's wrong. And we need to have licensed type. Let's license this bot. I don't mind paying something per month or per year to have this screen reader bot so I can interact with a computer in the same type of way with something that's, that's human like that's going to help me get through accessibility issues. But this whole nonsense and this whole nonsense of paying this much money to do things that we were doing in 1990s, that's over. Like. And they can do this as I jokingly say, we can do it the hard way or the harder way. You know, the hard way is you get on board with it. The harder ways you're going to get run over.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'm glad you you're saying this because I for years I've really had problems understanding the philosophy of the freedom scientific folks. A lot of blind and visually impaired people can't afford this price. And yet you go and you stab us with these prices, you don't care.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, it's not all that they don't care. It's that they have hired a bunch of programmers and a bunch of people on tech support, and they need to be able to pay for it. So back in the back in the day, like, people also would get mad if, you know, you have a piece of freeware like Nvda, which is great, but there's nobody you can you can't call a phone number and get your. And so that all I mean I'm not siding with them altogether. I'm just telling you the logistics of running a business. But now if you have a human AI screen reading bot. They should be able to do the job of a lot of that. And then the downside is what happens to the 20 people in tech support that get laid off. So there's no there's no easy answer. And I mean, I came on pretty strong with freedom Scientific and Dolphin. But there's no easy solution because if they go down this AI bot road then then then they have a situation where, what do we do with all these jobs that are lost? And this is the problem with AI is it's I mean, I'm seeing it in the accessibility space. There are companies creating AI coding utilities to take the place of, you know, manual testers. It's it's there's no easy answer. But we have to they have to figure it out because the days of traditional screen readers, if there's a traditional screen reader by 2030, I'll be surprised.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I would be too. I would be too, yeah. Wow. Larry, are there any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners?

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, I just would like to thank anybody on this who's listening, who I've interacted with before. I always jokingly say most of my interactions have been good. It's been a handful of not not good ones with with customers from time to time, both good and bad has helped me grow as a person. So all of my interactions with this industry, mostly positive, a handful of negative have made me has shaped me as a person. And I'm definitely not perfect there. There have been times when maybe I could have done things differently or better. But I appreciate everybody's patience and grace as I try to figure this thing out alongside with all of you. I mean, it's been great. I'm looking forward to to what lies ahead in the next few years and and coming up and it's it's just been a pleasure to to be on the podcast and to share a little bit of who I am with with folks, so I appreciate the opportunity.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I want to thank you for having come on to our podcast. And like I said, you know, you've played a big part or a big role in my life as my mentor, my advisor, my friend, and we will continue to walk the walk.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I appreciate that and I hope everybody has a great ending to the to the the Blue Jays Yankees series. And yeah, we'll see where October takes us and what ends up to be in the last two teams, right?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Well, let's hope for the best.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Great. Thank you Donna.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you Larry. You take care and we'll be in touch.

Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: All right. Bye bye.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. By.

Podcast Comentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.