Remarkable World Commentary Episode #72: Interview with Robin East, IT Analyst / Accessibility Specialist, Canada Revenue Agency

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #72: Interview with Robin East, IT Analyst / Accessibility Specialist, Canada Revenue Agency | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-01-28-2026/

In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with her longtime friend, mentor, and fellow "barrier buster" Robin East for a candid conversation about advocacy, law, and the lived reality of navigating inaccessible systems. East traces his path back to Saskatchewan, describing how he became legally blind in 1982 at age 22 and how the struggle to access basic information, like textbooks and timely research, sparked his lifelong push for equal access. From there, he reflects on his 2007 tenure as national president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians and explains why he insisted on a "rights-holder" approach (not "stakeholders"), including coalition-building across blindness organizations and backing Jodhan's landmark Charter challenge on inaccessible federal websites, an outcome he says proved that systemic change can be forced when communities organize and persist.

The interview also revisits East's own landmark 2008 transportation victory tied to flying with a guide dog, what triggered it, how he pursued it (including the Federal Court of Appeal), and what the rulings mean in practical terms for space and seating accommodations. From his vantage point inside the federal public service and through transportation advisory work, East then lays out why progress still feels slow: inaccessible legacy systems, flawed procurement, and a culture that treats accessibility as an afterthought instead of a requirement "from the get-go." He distinguishes "checking the box" from real compliance by emphasizing meaningful engagement early in design and policy-making, measurable timelines, and enforcement, calling out that the Accessible Canada Act's teeth (including potential penalties) haven't been used and that mandated reviews appear overdue. The episode closes with a call to action: disability organizations (both "of" and "for" people with disabilities) must rebuild coalitions, scrutinize accessibility plans, and press regulators to act, while also acknowledging burnout and the need for a funded, coordinated national forum to turn frustration into a concrete action plan.

TRANSCRIPT

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Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ASCP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable World commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled and greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest and change maker, whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. It is my pleasure. It is my privilege. It is my honor to welcome my friend, my mentor and my advisor of many years, Robin East. Welcome to my podcast.

Robin East: Oh, thank you, Donna, and I appreciate it. I listen to your your your introduction of you and I'm going, oh my God, is this my Donna?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We go back a long way and I will never forget the first time we met face to face. I think it was in New Westminster, BC. There I was, running for second VP of the EBC, standing right next to you. You were six feet five and I was five feet two. Just imagine.

Robin East: Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite a pair. Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We've done much together, buddy. We've, you know, the charter challenge, barrier Free Canada. And we're still kicking, aren't we?

Robin East: We certainly are. And continue to move rights forward. Right. It's the only it's the only way to go. Right?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is.

Robin East: It's it's it's how we it's how we have to operate. Because for every right we successfully put into place and and and and make governments know that it is our right. Then another piece comes along that they're trying to push down and away from us. And so we got to keep pulling up the pieces that that we have succeeded in, in the past.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Now, Robin, take us back to your beginnings in Saskatchewan. What early experiences, community work, union involvement, or your first encounters with in accessible systems set you on the path to become an advocate and technologist?

Robin East: Well, I think gosh, we go back a long, long ways, Don, and we could be here for weeks. I it but But when I became legally blind back in 1982 I was 22 years of age. By the time I was 26, 27. I basically did not have any sight left. And, and through that period of time, it was moving through to get a A university degree. So I moved from the University of Saskatchewan to Polytech to get a behavior therapist certificate. And then I moved from there to go into get a social work degree through the University of Saskatchewan and University of Regina. And all through that, looking at what was available for a person that was a blind Canadian citizen in Canada at the time. And as such, how do you address things? And the first thing, of course, as you know, is always the access to information. And at that very early start, it was access to textbooks. You go into a class, you try to get a textbook. By the time you get your textbook on audio tape, that class is nearly over, if not already over. So you're always using second hand or old, old, old type documentation. So you're never having up to date information. Same with any research that you do going into the library. Nothing. Nothing accessible back in those early 80 years. Right. So so all of those started that lifelong piece on advocacy.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow, wow. When you became national president of the Alliance for the Equality of Blind Canadians in 2007, you championed a right holders approach. What did that look like in practice, and what do you consider to be your top 2 or 3 wins from that period?

Robin East: I think just the recognition that we as a group in community, we as persons with disabilities, we are not stakeholders. And that was the term that's often used in government and is still used in government from time to time today. Well, we are not stakeholders. A stakeholder is a person that holds the prize for two competing factions, and whoever wins that stakeholder gives them the pride. We're we're not on the side. We're in the thick of things. It's nothing about us without us. And so a rights holder was a piece that I pushed forward way back in 2006, 2007. And any time I met with government and they brought up the word stakeholder, I promptly shot it down and said, sorry, but if that's the case, we're not here because we don't we don't want to be on the sidelines. We want to be listened to. We want to be part of the conversation, and we want to be part of the solution. So bringing forward rights holders was was an important piece. And to me that that is a a huge, huge, huge win for us. And another piece that we did was way back then in around that time, we started a coalition of blind organizations and we call it the Coalition of Rights Holders. And that that went for a number of years. And then it turned into a group called Now, I can't remember it.

Robin East: I can remember the acronym KG. So but I can't remember what it stood for. I have to go back and look it up. It's been so long since that even has been into place. But but that helped bring together a lot of the blindness organizations that were all striving to get monies from government and striving to make a name for themselves and to move advocacy. And it it helped bring us all together so that we could all look at what are the pieces that we need to come together as and move as one so that we can resolve some of those issues of the day. So that was an important piece. And of course in and around that time, there was a lovely lady named Donna Johnson who was trying to take through the court challenge program her case forward in regards to access for government sites and so on. And so to me, getting the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians to step up to the plate and back, Donna, in that huge fight that she won way back in 2010 and then again in 2012. That, folks, is a landmark decision. And it's a it's a watershed moment for the blind community in regards to access rights. Thank you, Donna, for that fight.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you, Robin, for standing with me. And in 2010, when my charter challenged case against the Government of Canada over inaccessible federal websites, was decided, you were a vocal ally. Okay. From your vantage point, what did that ruling change inside government and across the broader accessibility movement?

Robin East: Well, I think it it showed both government. Officials as well as community that if one decides to take on a piece of advocacy to take a look at what you think should be your right as a Canadian citizen, and to move that forward, it showed that it could be done. And to me, that that was the biggest piece. It, it it gave it gave people the permission to. Speak up for themselves to look for allies and and and and with those allies move what we would call the disability rights agenda forward in Canada. So to me that that was the biggest piece of course, having appropriate websites being accessible. External for public facing sites is is extremely important and to have it monitored by the court so that it would be done appropriately. Was was as I said, it's a watershed moment and it's a piece of history that we will always go back to the the whole aspect of having an accessible site when you're going on with a screen reader to be able to get information is is unparalleled in regards to what we do as, as blind citizens the the the. The next step to that was to try to get the internal sites and so on within the Government of Canada to be accessible, similar to the external sites. And there is now a recent court challenge that is to address that, plus to bring up and and relook at the what we call the jot in one case. And now this is the other two case and it's going to be looking at the internal applications, forms, documents and websites to make sure that all of those pieces are accessible as well.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, Robin, I still remember that very famous fall day when I was just sitting there doing nothing and you phoned me and you said, I think you need to get downtown to see David Baker. And I said, why the hell for? And he says, because we won. We won. It wasn't just me, Donna. It was our team. And you were there with me. You know. But you know what? You won a landmark case in 2008 against the Canadian Transportation Agency. With the decision related to your traveling with your guide dog. Walk us through the problem you faced, how you built the case, and what the ruling really actually required of airlines, and what still is not happening on the ground today.

Robin East: Well, that that that's quite an interesting piece. And so back in 2006, 2007 and part of 2008, the whole other aspect of travel with a guide dog was that out of the goodness of the hearts of the carriers. For for the for the various airlines. They would give us an extra seat space for room for our service dogs when we got onto a plane. But that was only if there was room. And so this all and that came about way back in 1974 by a young gal named Gail Riddle out of Penticton. Who who basically got on a plane to go to Ottawa to, to for and I can't remember the reasons why she did that. I was it for an award or something? I can't recall that part, but she was going with her guide dog, and the air carrier wanted to muzzle her dog. And. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was horrible. So she finally said fine, she would put the muzzle on. She flew to Ottawa, but unbeknownst to her on that plane were MPs and and once they landed in Ottawa, there was a gathering of the media and that airline was put to shame. And after that, the airlines welcomed guide dogs on their planes. But again, it was still voluntary practice and only if there was room. So Gail Riddell started it all moving forward all the way up to 2006, 2007, I did a lot of traveling for work with my dog guide, and while I was traveling in most times the seat was available for my dog to lie comfortably, but from time to time, that seat was not available.

Robin East: And when I was going from Vancouver to Kelowna. I was on this little prop plane person sitting in the aisle seat. I had to sit in the window seat. It was only a two seater on each side, and my dog was sitting under my feet, and my feet were on top of my dog. And as you know, I'm very tall, fellow. So my knees were up by my chin and that was the most horrible flight I ever had. I was so concerned that my dog was going to get hurt. Right. So that's that's why I made the decision to take the airline to task. And I won at the at the Canada Transportation Agency level. But the airline wasn't satisfied with that ruling from the Canada Transportation Agency. So they decided to go to court. So, so, yeah. So when I went to the Federal Court of Appeal, you have to do it by yourself, because even though we have these rights, all of a sudden Everybody has to have and not be biased. So they they can't really support you in the court. So you're all alone. So you got to file all of these documents and so on. But thankfully, a mr. stack from a lawyer from the Saskatoon, Saskatchewan agreed that he would help me file the paperwork and, and take on this particular airline.

Robin East: And at the end of it all, we we did win the Federal Court of Appeal. And we, to this day, have the right to be able to take our service dogs on a plane and and, and get the extra seat for the room, depending on the size. So the ruling was based on the size. Small, medium, large. If it's small, you don't need the extra room. If it's a medium or large, then you do. And then you have to you have to address it through the medical model, of course. And and and show, you know, your dog's height, your dog's weight, your dog's length to prove that it's a medium to large sized dog so you can get the plane. So so that's still in place. And that was rolled into the Council of Canadians with disabilities when on one seat, one fare, because when they did the one seat one fare, they forgot about us with our service dogs. So we were so we were able to, after my win, then roll that into that particular case. So now when we say one seat, one fare, it does include our service dogs. But that case is still still set forth and, and nothing has changed in regards to that. So that's how we now have the right to take our dogs on any of those carriers. We just need to make sure we have the proper paperwork to do it.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But are you engaged with other issues with regard to, you know, traveling in addition to the guide dog issue right now?

Robin East: Well, I sit on the Canada Transportation Agency Advisory Committee and I represent Independent Living Canada. I'm the vice chair for that national organization. And so so we bring up issues that are barriers for transportation federally. So buses that cross provincial line, ferries, air carriers and trains, those are the, the the main ones. We also look at issues in regards to Catsa, which is the, the Federal Authority for security for, for airlines airports. And, and look at the good work that they've been doing in getting people through security and addressing that. And, and of all of the organizations within the airports and the airlines. I have to say that Catsa has really stepped up to the plate in regards to access and and treating persons with disabilities with dignity.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to agree with you. Catsa has done a marvelous job. I really am proud of them, you know. Yeah. Now you've spent years inside the federal public service as an ex NSA analyst and accessibility specialist at the. No, sorry. Cra. I'm sorry. From the inside looking out. What are the hardest, you know, nuts to crack procurement, legacy systems, culture or something else. And how do you get out of all of this?

Robin East: Oh, Donna, that is a huge egg to crack. Go for it. I would say that at this point in time all the above that you mentioned are barriers for persons of disabilities to address. And although we have the Accessible Canada Act that that came into force on July 11th of 2019 we are still trying to address accessibility issues within the government of Canada. And, and that includes the internal pieces such as websites applications, forms, documents, all of those are still very much not accessible. And we would suggest that at least 80%, if not more, is not accessible. So there's a long way to go before those pieces become accessible. Their main systems, like employment systems that you have to access as an employee systems that you have to access as a manager, those systems are not accessible. And they're based on a what I would call a bastardised code in that they don't even use the appropriate code of the day. They've had to manipulate the code and create part of the mainframe application pieces. And when they did that those applications can't be rendered accessible because of the code that they've dealt with. They have to actually rebuild everything from scratch, or rebuild front end models so that it can go into the mainframes and reach in and grab the information and put it out into an accessible form that is going to cost millions of dollars. And here we are, what, in 2026? I'm seven years after the Accessible Canada Act came into force, and they have hardly touched any of that in regards to making it accessible. They roughly have 13 slash 14 years left before their magic, 2040 of Canada becoming fully accessible. And in 14 years, they're not going to make it because they've already had a third of that.

Robin East: Seven years has gone by and they've they've hardly even made a mark in regards to accessibility, and that's just within what we call the IT world. If we look at the procurement of things again to procure pieces that are accessible, you you have to first do the research. When you do procure it, you got to test to make sure it's accessible. And then if it is accessible, you can go ahead with the contract. Well, I believe that those contracts are, are still have many issues because a lot of times when you're looking at the information to procure that information might say that the piece is accessible, but after you've tested it, you've discovered that indeed it is not accessible. There's exemptions that, that make it that, that they try to push forward so that they say it's accessible. But or without looking at this piece or this piece or this piece, this would be accessible. Well, we need all those pieces so that everybody can use it appropriately. And that's just not happening yet. So so procurement still needs to happen. And even though we've rolled in the standards what we call the En 301549 standard. So that's from the European Union. And it's now a worldwide standard. And the web content accessible guidelines are now incorporated in that standard. We we are still fighting to make sure that when we do procure things that it is accessible. But that's, that's, that's going to take years yet to come into play. And that's where the attitude and the culture is, is still a piece that we need to work on.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we tackle the attitude and the culture. And why is it taking so long?

Robin East: It one step at a time. And if you think of it this way and out of sight, out of mind. So if you're not thinking about accessibility it's out of your mind, then you just continue doing things. And so until we make it in the face of everybody and have everybody when you create a document, you make it accessible from the get go. If you're going to develop an application, you make it accessible from the get go. If you're going to change policy, change directives, you need to involve persons with disabilities from the get go. You can't you can't bring people with disabilities in the final draft and say, we are now going to consult with you. What do you think? And then put it forward. That's like baking a cake without the sugar and then try to add it in afterwards. It just doesn't work.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've had this told to me so many times, but does anybody listening?

Robin East: I think they're starting to, but only because more and more pressure is getting put on by persons with disabilities. They're getting more organized within and outside of government. And because of that, I think that it's slowly happening, but it's going to take much, much more time than I wish I wish it that it would, but it's going to take much, much more time than, than what we thought. And I don't think that we will reach that magical, fully accessible by 2040. I think they're going to have to extend the Accessible Canada Act. I think that the government may have to find monies to put into place for some of the huge projects for the various Departments and agencies to build accessible pieces because they've left it for decades. And not done it because they kept thinking, well, we really don't have to. They go back to, oh, it's only 1 or 2 people, or it's only 5% of people that we have to worry about. Well, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 15, of which you laid claim with your case, Donna, the the whole aspect of it only takes one to discriminate. And that's what I keep telling folks. It only takes one. So it's not 1% or 5% or 25%. It's just one individual. If if you can't make it accessible for that individual, then you have failed.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were seconded to help stand up the Accessible Canada Acts compliance function. So from a practitioner's perspective, what's the difference between checking the box and demonstrating real compliance? And what evidence should regular, regular regulatory regulators be asking for?

Robin East: Well, the checklists are gone, Donna. You can't just check a box saying, oh, let me see. I have this issue. I'm going to phone Donna Jodhan. Oh, hi, Donna. We've had this chat. This is what we're doing. Have a great day. And now you've checked the box. We've consulted with a person with a disability. So now let's move on. That's. That's gone. Those were the days prior to the Accessible Canada Act. Now, what has to happen is that persons with disabilities must be consulted in a meaningful way. So we don't like to use the word consulting. We talk about meaningful engagement, and we talk about that engagement happening at the beginning. When you start talking about building a policy or a directive or an application. Let's bring in persons with disabilities. Let's have let's have those meaningful discussions, which is give and take. And let's build the accessibility pieces in that's that's what that's all about. We no longer look at the checklists, right? They they were handy in the day, but it's not a piece that we look at anymore. We look at. Did you actually meaningfully engage with persons with disabilities? Yes or no? When did you do that? At the end. In the middle or at the beginning? You know, so so those are the new styles of checklists.

Robin East: It's questions of how did you give dignity to persons with disabilities in regards to your attitude, your culture, and, and, and how you are looking at putting a plan together to make your area accessible so each department and agency has to do that. Any Crown corporation has to do that. Any large corporation has to do that. So with all of those pieces we end up with these accessible action, not action plans, but accessible plans and then accessible reports. And we have to look at those plans and reports, and we have to start saying, okay, are they just giving us gobbledygook? Are they giving us bluff like they used to do under the employment equity plans. This work is ongoing. That's not good enough anymore. What are the barriers? What's the solution and what's the timeline to get that solution in place? That's what we're now looking for. If we're starting to see delays or places where in the plans the information is now removed because they couldn't get it together. They didn't have any money. They're coming up with all kinds of excuses. That's not good enough. And we as a community now have to look at those plans. Pick a handful of departments, agencies, crown corporations and start challenging those plans to see where they're at, because one third or 33%, if you will, of the time to 2040 is already up.

Robin East: So there should be lots of stuff there that should have moved things forward, but we're seeing little progress. So it's how do we do that as a community? And then also how do we then look at that accessible Canada Act unit? And the accessibility Commissioner, we need to report to that unit. What we find is community and get that unit also to start looking at those plans and reports and then start challenging those federal entities and, and force them to make things accessible. And then if they are at fault and they're not moving things forward, then the accessibility commissioner can find those entities up to $250,000 per day until they render it accessible. But we haven't seen any of that in seven years. So if you've if you've got if you got teeth in a, in a, in an act, but you never use it there, you might as well pull the teeth out because it's no good. It's time for the the accessibility commissioner. And the chief accessibility officer to start moving on and addressing these departments and agencies and stop accepting the excuses that they're giving.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we make them do that, these two particular individuals.

Robin East: It only comes from community, and we need to do our due diligence. We need to we need to get together as groups, start looking at two or 3 or 4 plans from various departments and agencies and start criticizing in a very professional way the information that's there. And, and to show the accessibility commissioner and chief accessibility officer why this plan or these plans in these particular spots have failed and and get the accessibility commissioner to do an audit and address those pieces. But and I guess that's the important piece we need to assist the accessibility commissioner. He's only got a small team, so we need to to assist the the them to start looking at some of these pieces. And I think by putting it in writing and sending it to them, they'll have no choice but to review, study and then put an audit forward and start addressing. The House, if you will, the Government of Canada's House in regards to accessibility through the accessibility plans.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You interacted personally with either of these two individuals.

Robin East: I have not at this point in time. Yeah. We just received a new accessibility Commissioner. Just in. He's just in place for, what, maybe a year? So. No, I have not. I have not met him yet. I would like to meet him with at some point in time. And I think that that will come, but I think more importantly organizations need to talk with the heads of those organizations, and then those organizations should get together similar to that coalition of rights holders that I talked about earlier. Start talking about what what we need to do and then and then asking for a meeting and have that accessibility commissioner come to them and all of those organizations then sit down and simply say, here's the information. How are we going to work this out so that we can address the accessibility barriers that are still in the place where where the solutions are not being resolved. And and how do we force entities to make things accessible and take more seriously the Accessible Canada Act? If you will, if you look at the bilingual act if we were to put something out in only French, English, Canada would be most upset if we were to put out something only in, in English, then French Canada would be mostly upset. And with that, if we are to do presentations and so on, and if we don't have ASL and, and American Sign Language in French present that is considered an official language in Canada under the Accessible Canada Act.

Robin East: And so that's a new piece that we have to add. So when we're looking at all of these pieces, we need to say, why is it that the bilingual act is so strong that you can't send out a document unless it's appropriately in both official languages? Then why can't we do the same thing? Under the Accessible Canada Act? Why? Why can't we simply say you cannot procure this unless it is actually accessible? You can't build this app unless it's actually accessible. You can't put forward this application on your websites unless it's actually accessible. You can't put this form in place unless it's accessible and so on and so on and so on. Right. These these are pieces of interest that I think we need to look at and say, why is it this act of bilingualism is so strong and very important to us in Canada? Why is it that the Accessible Canada Act, which has teeth, is the teeth are not being used. That that's to me of interest. And I think the community needs to start asking that question now. Lastly, just out of interest, the Accessible Canada Act has stated very clearly that there should be a review after five years. Well, we're into year seven. I haven't heard of anything about a review yet.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Neither have.

Robin East: I, you.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Know.

Robin East: So? So where is that? That's in the act. But it's silent. Why? Why?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, what can we do? And as my clock starts to wind down, I'm going to ask you this huge question. Are you willing to lead such an initiative to force, you know, force feed the companies to, to step up to the plate? No review in five years. What should we do? What can we do? You tell me.

Robin East: I honestly believe in the organizations of and for persons with disabilities. And I say oven for because there are there are two types of organizations for people with disabilities. The of are the persons with disabilities that run those organizations themselves. The four are organizations that are usually not persons of disabilities, but are organizations claiming to fight for the rights of persons with disabilities? Some are, some are not. And but but I think we need to pull in all of them. And I think that we as a community need to start looking at how do we make the government of Canada stand up and take seriously the Accessible Canada Act legislation and move forward? The access, right, that we still don't have, even though we've had the act in place for seven years. So it's a matter of pulling those people together. Can I do that myself? No. Can you do that yourself, Donna? No, no, we need to have a number of people coming up to the plate and starting to move that forward. And so that would be all of the national organisations of which I will not name because there are so many of them. And there's lots for the blind, there's lots for people in chairs, there's lots for people with neurodiversity and the list goes on. But we, we have to stop worrying about if I do this, then I'm not going to get this government grant. Right. That's part of the problem. We need to get people to start standing up and not worrying about those government grants and say, we need to work on behalf of our community, and we need to work Working alongside of the leadership within persons of disabilities themselves and and and ask the government and demand of government that changes need to be real and they need to come fast.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where do we get these leaders from?

Robin East: I that's a good question. I think they're out there. Donna. You talk to many of them. I talk to many of them. It's time that we start asking the very question that you're asking. How how do we start moving this forward? What? What can you help to put things forward? And if each of us do that, then it's then I think we will be able to pull it together. But again, it's to get the fear of the people that are getting monies from government to be able to stand up to that same government, to say, you're doing this wrong, you need to fix this.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know you found it barrier free Saskatchewan and it has done very, very well. You also are part of my Barrier Free Canada organization. And now we are really at a turning point here. What are your final thoughts, Robyn? Where are we going and how are we going to get there?

Robin East: Well, I think through barrier free Canada and all the Barrier free's that have set up across the country in the various provinces, like barrier free Saskatchewan in most cases, we now have provincial accessible acts that are sort of mirroring, but probably weaker than the National Accessible Canada Act. And they are to be working together. So I think it's a matter of starting to pull together coalitions. Again, Oven for persons with disabilities. Oven for organizations of of persons with disabilities. Oven. For services of. Of organizations for persons with disabilities. It's time to have that chat amongst all of us and seeing how can we address things. Maybe that is something we look at Accessible Standards Canada and say we need a grant to be able to pull all of these people together and have a huge forum two, three, four day conference so that we can come up with action plans and actions to move accessible rights forward in Canada. Maybe that's the way we do it. Donna. It's a matter of how do we address that? Through Accessible Standards Canada. And get a grant of money to, to put something like this forward, because I think it fits within their criteria to be able to give money for that. But it's it's hard when you are running your organizations, you're doing advocacy within your organizations, you're doing self-advocacy. Then to take another finger out of a pot and put it into another pot to help move that forward. So burnout is real. It happens. I've been there. It's not a pretty thing. So I think we need to be careful on the work that we put on the shoulders of folks. We all need to come up with our allies pull in the supports and come together in a forum. And then at the end of that forum, have an action plan that we can then move forward on for rights of persons with disabilities in Canada.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robin has been a privilege and a pleasure to have interviewed you now, and I can only hope and pray that Something will happen in our lifetime, but something has already. But that something else will happen. I want to thank you for coming on to our interview, and we will chat soon. I am out of Canada right now. I'm returning to Canada on February the 2nd, but I'd like to touch base with you after that.

Robin East: Well, it's a pleasure coming on and talking with you, Donna, and in your travels, be safe, be healthy, and stay encouraged.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You to, Robin, and we will be in touch.

Robin East: Very good. Thank you. Donna.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you.

Robin East: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.

Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [e-mail]. Until next time.