Season 4 | Episode 9 - Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp, Enacting Talk Moves with Intention

Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp, Enacting Talk Moves with Intention

ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 9

All students deserve a classroom rich in meaningful mathematical discourse. But what are the talk moves educators can use to bring this goal to life in their classrooms? 

Today, we're talking about this question with Todd Hinnenkamp from the North Kansas City Schools. Whether talk moves are new to you or already a part of your practice, this episode will deepen your understanding of the ways they impact your classroom community. 

BIOGRAPHY

Dr. Todd Hinnenkamp is the instructional coordinator for mathematics for the North Kansas City Schools. 

RESOURCES

Talk Moves with Intention for Math Learning Center

Standards for Mathematical Practice by William McCallum 

5 Practices for Orchestrating Productive Mathematics Discussions by Margaret (Peg) Smith and Mary Kay Stein 

TRANSCRIPT

Mike Wallus: Before we begin, I'd like to offer a quick note to listeners. During this episode, we'll be referencing a series of talk moves throughout the conversation. You can find a link to these talk moves included in the show notes for this episode.

Welcome to the podcast, Todd. I'm really excited to be chatting with you today.

Todd Hinnenkamp: I'm excited to be here with you, Mike. Talk through some things.

Mike: Great. So I've heard you present on using talk moves with intention, and one of the things that you shared at the start was the idea that talk moves advance three aspects of teaching and learning: a productive classroom community, student agency, and students’ mathematical practice. So as a starting point, can you unpack that statement for listeners?

Todd: Sure. I think all talk moves with intention contribute to advancing all three of those, maybe some more than others. But all can be impactful in this endeavor, and I really think that identifying them or understanding them well upfront is super important. 

So if you unpack “productive community” first, I think about the word “productive” as an individual word. In different situations, it means a quality or a power of producing, bringing about results, benefits, those types of things. And then if you pair that word “community” alongside, I think about the word “community” as a unified body of individuals, an interacting population. I even like to think about it as joint ownership or participation. When that's present, that's a pretty big deal. So I like to think about those two concepts individually and then also together. So when you think about the “productivity” word and the “community” word and then pairing them well together, is super important.

And I think about student agency. Specifically the word “agency” means something pretty powerful that I think we need to have in mind. When you think about it in a way of, like, having the capacity or the condition or state of acting or even exerting some power in your life. I think about students being active in the learning process. I think about engagement and motivation and them owning the learning. I think oftentimes we see that because they feel like they have the capacity to do that and have that agency. So I think about that, that being a thing that we would want in every single classroom so they can be productive contributors later in life as well. So I feel like sometimes there's too many students in classrooms today with underdeveloped agencies. So I think if we can go after agency, that's pretty powerful as well.

And when you think about students’ math practice, super important habits of what we want to develop in students. I mean, we're fortunate to have some clarity around those things, those practices, thanks to the work of Dr. [William] McCallum and his team more than a decade ago when they provided us the standards for mathematical practice. But if you think about the word “practice” alone, it's interesting. I've done some research on this. I think the transitive verb meaning is to do or perform often, customarily or maybe habitually. The transitive verb meaning is to pursue something actively. Or if you think about it with a noun, it's just a usual way of doing something or condition of being proficient through a systematic exercise. So I think all those things are, if we can get kids to develop their math practice in a way it becomes habitual and is really strong within them, it's pretty powerful.

So I do think it's important that we start with that. We can't glaze over these three concepts because I think that right now, if you can tie some intentional talk moves to them, I think that it can be a pretty powerful lever to student understanding.

Mike: Yeah. You have me thinking about a couple things. One of the first things that jumped out as I was listening to you talk is there's the “what,” which are the talk moves, but you're really exciting the stage with the “why.” Why do we want to do these things? And what I'd like to do is take each one of them in turn. So can we first talk about some of the moves that set up productive community for learners?

Todd: Yeah. I think all the moves that are on my mind contribute, but there's probably a couple that I think go after productive community even more so than others. And I would say the “student restates” move, that first move where you're expecting students to repeat or restate in their own words what another student shared, promotes some really special things. I think first it communicates to everyone in the room that “We're going to talk about math in here. We're going to listen to and respectfully consider what others say and think.” It really upholds my expectation as an educator that we're going to interact with and understand the mathematical thinking that's present so that student restates is a great one to get going. 

And I would also offer the “think, turn, and learn” move is a highly impactful one as well. The general premise here is that you're offering time upfront. Always starting with “think,” you're offering time upfront. And what that should be communicating to students is that “You have something to offer. I'm providing you time to think about it, to organize it, so then you're more apt to share it with either your partner or the community.” It really increases the likelihood that kids have something to contribute. And as you literally turn your body and learn from each other—and those words are intentional, “turn” and “learn”—it opens the door to share, to expand your thinking, to then refine what you're thinking and build to develop both speaking and listening skills that help the community bond become stronger. So in the end it says, "I have something to offer here. I'm valued through my interactions.” And I feel like that there's something that comes out of that process for kids.

Mike: You talked about the practice of “think, turn, learn.” And one of the things that jumps out is “think.” Because we've often used language like “turn and talk,” and that's in there with “turn and learn,” but “think” feels really important. I wonder if you could say more about why “think”? Let's just make it explicit. Why “think”?

Todd: Sure. No, and I'm not trying to throw shade at “turn and talks” or anything like that, but I do think when we have intention with our moves, they're super impactful relative to other opportunities where maybe we're just not getting the most out of it. So that idea of offering time or providing or ensuring time for kids to think upfront—and depending on the situation, that can be 10 seconds, that can be 30 seconds—where you feel like students have had a chance to internalize what's going on [and] think about what they would say, it puts them in an entirely different mode to build a share with somebody else. I'm often in classrooms, and if we don't provide that think time, you see kids turn and talk to each other, and the first part is them still trying to figure out what should be said. And it just doesn't seem like it's as impactful or as productive during that time as it could be without that “think” first.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. 

I want to go back to something you said earlier too, when you were describing the value that comes out of restating or rephrasing, having a student do that with another student's thinking. One of the things that struck me is there were points in time when you were talking about that and you were talking about the value for an individual student who's in that spot. 

Todd: Mm.

Mike: But I also heard you come back to it and say, “There's something in this for the group, for the community as well.” And I wonder if you could unpack a little bit: What's in it for the kid when they go through that restating another student’s [idea], or having their [own] idea restated, and then what's in it for the community?

Todd: Sure. Well, let's start with the individual, Mike. And I think that with what we know about learning and how much more deeply we learn when we internalize something and reflect on it and actually link it to our past learning and think about what it means to us, is probably the most important thing that comes out of that. So the student that's restating what another student says, they really have to think about what that student said and then internalize it and make sense of it in a way where they can actually say it out to the community again. That's a big deal! So to talk about the impact on the community in that mode, Mike, when you get one or two [ideas], and maybe you ask for a couple more, you now have student thinking in four different forms out in the community rather than, say, one student sharing something and a teacher restating it and moving on. And I just love how those moves together can cause the thinking to linger in the classroom longer for kids. Often when I'm in classrooms, the kids actually learn it more when somebody else says it rather than me. And it kind of ties to that where, like, they just need to hear other kids thinking and start to process that a little bit more on their level. And we get to shore that up too as teachers. We can shore up whatever's missing if we need to later. But I think the depth that comes from thinking about it, putting it out in the community, having more kids think about [it] is pretty powerful.

Mike: I think what's cool about that is the idea that there's four or five ideas floating around and how different that is than [when] a kid says something, the teacher restates it and moves on. I might not have made sense of it on the first kid's description or the teacher's description, but when those things linger around, there's a much better chance that I'm going to make sense of it.

Todd: Yeah. And I agree, Mike. 

And what's really important in that process as well is the first move I always talk about is “wait.” You literally have to wait. When the student restates something, we've got to let that sit for a little bit for it to really be something that other kids can grasp onto and then give them time to process what they heard and then ask if someone could restate. At that point, it's causing all this cognition in the brain, and it's making me think about what I understand and what I don't understand about what was said. And it just starts to build and make a huge difference over time.

Mike: Yeah. I'm glad you said that because I'm a person who talks to think, but that is not true of a lot of folks. 

Todd: (laughs)

Mike: A lot of people need time to think…

Todd: Sure.

Mike: …before they talk. And so I think it's really important to recognize that that wait time is really an opportunity for mental space. And if we don't do that, it actually might fall flat.

Todd: Totally agree. I'd see it day in and day out in classrooms I'm in, where if we can offer that time to let that concept or thinking permeate across the room for a little bit longer, it's a whole different outcome.

Mike: Nice. 

I'm wondering if we can pivot and talk a little bit about moves that support student agency and their mathematical practice. They really do feel like they're kind of interconnected.

Todd: Yeah, I think they are somewhat interconnected as I think about them. And I see agency as like a broader concept, like really that development of capacity to act or have power in a situation. But when you think about math practices—thinking about the standards for mathematical practices—it's a little more specific. So when you think about the math practice of perseverance, I think we have to think about the move [called] wait time that I just talked about. When used with intention, I think it can communicate to kids, “I've got confidence in you. You have something to offer. I believe in you and that you're capable of contributing here.” I just think that we have to think about our use of wait time and the messages that kids get from that and be careful not to squelch their opportunity to grow in those situations.

Mike: OK. I have a follow-up. You're making me think about ways to do wait time well and ways to do wait time that might have an unintended consequence. So walk me through a really productive use of wait time—what the language is that the teacher uses or how they manage what can feel uncomfortable for most of us.

Todd: Sure. And I will be very upfront that anytime you start to use wait time, if you haven't before, there's going to be some discomfort. (laughs) You think about, if you're a person that always wants to fill that space or feel like you need to because students aren't quite contributing, then you start to shift your practice to cause there to be a little more extended wait time, there's going to be some discomfort that plays out in that situation. 

So I think honestly, Mike, part of it is having the right question or the right prompt, and setting up the expectation and upholding it over time. I talk a lot with teachers about establishing and maintaining productive community. I think that we have to establish it over time and then maintain it. And what I mean by that is if you start to use wait time, you're establishing that norm in your classroom, is that I'm always going to give you time to think, and that's super important in here because we want to make sure that we get the most out of the experience.

The maintaining part of it, I believe, is where we uphold that over time. We don't start to back off if kids don't then share their thinking. We can't always fill that space. And I think sometimes an inappropriate use of wait time is if we do it pretty well, but then we rescue when there's a time that kids aren't sharing something. So I do believe that no matter what classroom you're in, there is always one kid that can give you at least a nugget that you can go with. So I think as much as you can wait and try to draw that out before interjecting is super important.

Mike: Yeah. You make me think about a scenario that I encountered a fair amount when I was teaching elementary, which was: I'd ask a question and there were two or three kids who immediately put their hand up. There were quite a few that were still thinking, and it was really uncomfortable for me, but I think also for some of the kids who had their hands up, that I didn't immediately call on them, that I actually waited and let the question marinate…

Todd: Yes.

Mike: …and the end product was great. I had more kids who had something to say because they had that space. But it was a little uncomfortable, especially for those kids who were like, "Wait, I know it immediately. Why aren't you calling on me?

Todd: (laughs) Yes. And I think it's super important what you just shared, Mike, because in our practice, we have to be aware that the day-to-day practices or actions that we enact in our lessons, they're impacting everything from community, agency, practice. All the things that we're talking about today are sometimes just suddenly being impacted either positively or negatively. And I think the scenario you described about your practice is, like, you were intentional about it. You became aware, you realized that there's a handful of kids that I'm probably letting drive the discourse maybe more than I need to. And you're right: You've got other kids in classrooms that I'm in that are really waiting to talk and never have the chance. And I do feel like those are the kids that are going to have a hard time staying caught up with everybody because they're not getting that opportunity to develop some of those habits.

Mike: Yeah. It makes me think about when I was a kid as well. I was not the fast kid, right? I was thinking about it, but I was not the first kid with my hand up. 

You've really got me thinking about how wait time is a real subtle way of saying, “You're not necessarily the most competent person just because you have your hand up first.” There's no added bonus that says, like, "You're the best just because your hand's up first. Everybody can contribute. You might need a little bit of time to process. That's super normal in a math class.”

Todd: Yes, it is. And you go back to what we discussed earlier about being a valued contributor in the community, and you think about what those kids feel once they experience that wait time and then their ideas being the ones that drive the discourse or that are highlighted or presented. That's where you draw that in, and if you can have 50% of your kids be the ones that are feeling that, then you got to shoot for 60, and then 70, and so on. But you gotta start to expand the number of kids that talk and share and restate and do all the things around discourse, but wait time is a super powerful tool to do that.

Mike: Another thing that you shared when I saw your presentation was the idea that you can pair talk moves in a sequence and that those sequence talk moves can have a powerful impact on kids. And I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about some of the ways that educators can sequence talk moves to have maximum impact.

Todd: Sure. Yeah. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that there is an always or a 100% correct way to line them up and sequence them, but I do think there's some [that], if you can go after them in particular instances in your professional practice, I think it's going to change your practice, I think more quickly and more deeply. And the same goes with a lesson. I think right off the bat, we first must wait. We have to start to build that into our practice where we wait. So if we offer a prompt [or] pose a question, let it sit for a second. I always talk about 4 to 6 seconds would be about how long you'd want to just let it sit for a little bit. Then, if you’ve got the right question and the right prompt, I think you could just say, "OK, now I'm going to give you some time to think and then I'm going to have you turn and actually learn with a partner. So I want you to think about the prompt that's on the board. What would you share with your partner?” And literally you give them time to think and then you can turn and learn. 

So at that point, I think it's important that you're walking about the community, listening in, getting a feel for what's being discussed, because I think at that point you can have a feel for maybe what you might want to go to next, what insight you want to make sure is surfaced that is aligned to the learning goal of the day. That's how you get all that headed in the right direction. So you gotta lean in and figure that out. And I think at that point you could ask someone to share. “OK, who can share what you and your partner talked about?” See what happens; see what you get. You can be strategic if nobody offers. You can just say, "Hey, would you end up sharing? I listened to what you had. Would you mind sharing?" 

And then I think at that point you could use a “Do you agree or disagree and why?” So here's their thinking on this situation. So I want you to really think about it. Do you agree with what they're sharing or not? And then I'm going to ask you why. Let that sit. Give them some time to think. Let that play out. I think at that point you could offer the floor to whoever wants to argue about that and try to convince the community that they agree or disagree and why. 

And then I think, even, (laughs) I guess to keep going, Mike, I think you could at that point use the “tell us more,” when that student's offering the reasoning on why they agree or disagree, and you don't feel like it's enough or maybe there's other kids in the room not quite understanding where they're going. “OK. So tell us a little bit more. Keep going.” And offer that space and time for them to do that. 

So yeah, there's several ways that you can sequence them, but I really think you have to figure out the learning goal, be intentional about the discourse and how you can get it headed in the right direction and also slow it down enough that there's some depth to it as well.

Mike: We had a guest on [Rounding Up] earlier this season, and he was talking about the importance of “agree or disagree.” He called it “pick a side,” but I think the idea is the same.

Todd: Oh yeah. Yeah, same concept.

Mike: And I wonder if you could talk about, what is it about agree [or] disagree that you think is particularly powerful for kids?

Todd: Sure, Mike. Do you agree [or] disagree? It does make you take a stand. Like you have to understand the situation well enough to be able to say, "Hey, I agree with this thinking because..." fill in the blank. I think it puts you in a position where you've got to weigh everything that's playing out in the discourse and then actually understand it well enough to be able to then communicate about it. Your approach may be different than the thinking that was shared, but if you can understand it well enough and then state whether you agree or disagree and why, that's some pretty deep understanding. I mean, there's some high value in that if you can get to that point.

Mike: Absolutely. I get the sense that a fair number of these talk moves might start to feel pretty organic. They might happen almost like muscle memory when an educator starts to use them, but you really have me thinking about planning for talk moves. Do you have any guidance for an educator who might be trying to think about, "Hey, I want to purposefully integrate some of these moves into my practice." What would it look like to plan for that?

Todd: Sure. I think first of all, when you talk about muscle memory, that's a great way to put it. Some of these moves may not be strong in a professional practice for a person right now, but the more you get to using them and trying them out and implementing them and seeing what they'll do for productive community agency math practice, you're going to start to develop a level of growth in your practice that I think is going to be tremendous. But as you think about being intentional with them as you plan a lesson and go after a particular learning goal for a lesson, the one thing that comes to mind for me is really Dr. Peg Smith's work around the five practices and orchestrating discussions, right? You think about anticipating and then selecting and sequencing and connecting for sure all come to mind in that. So I guess I would go as far as saying, as we prepare for what students may say or do, we can intentionally think about the moves that might be most impactful in different scenarios.

For instance, let's just say [there’s a] a third grade student; you're working on a model to represent multiplication. The student draws a model to represent a multiplication scenario. You can plan to project or show the model and then simply use the think, turn, and learn move. You can show the student thinking, ask students to not talk upfront. We need to give people individual time to think. And then I want you to think about what you see and then I want you to turn and learn with your partner about that. So I think at that point, with that move being used, you're going to get a lot of discourse around whether the model is an appropriate representation or not. I think there's going to be depth in what kids take away from the experience. And you can go back to that as like, OK, so if I know that a kid says this and just says, "Well, it looks like there's this many rows and this many arrays,” [then] the tell us more move is a great one there. “Tell us more. What do you mean by that?” Then they have to extend to give more depth to their thinking and then refine it a little bit more. 

So I think as you think about the learning goal, there's certainly ways that you can think about any of these talk moves, and in a way where you want to make sure that the right move is being used to get you closer to the goal of sense being made and such. So yeah.

Mike: I want to come back to something that you touched on in the beginning, but it feels like a through line, which is: These talk moves are about building engagement and math, but really they're about so much more. What do you see as the long-term payoff for kids who experience this type of a learning experience?

Todd: Well, (laughs) it often feels counterintuitive when I'm in schools and talking about these things because I think we've shifted into a mode where professional learning communities are so honed in on that exact math content standard, what do we want kids to know, be able to do? How will we know? What are we going to do when they don't? And I really believe that the more I'm in these situations, Mike, I'm understanding that we can't shift that learning like we want to until we deal with some of these that—I call them more general pedagogy practices, like discourse and talk moves with intention. Those are more general practices, not a content-specific practice teaching kids how to find a common denominator so they can add fractions and such. But I really think if we can get at some of these general pedagogy things to build up community, agency, math practice—all those things that I think will transcend time—I often talk about it, we're going after something bigger than just the priority standards or the most important standards within our state. We're going after things that are deeper, bigger, pay off more later in life than we may even realize that we're experiencing in the moment.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, things like flexibility, problem solving, citizenship are all pieces that really jump out when I listen to you talk about that, Todd.

Todd: Sure. No, you think about—and I mean, as we were talking about productive community earlier, I always offer them: Is there anything different you would want in your classroom or your school? You think about the words “productive” and “community,” can we all come together and think about things in a way where we're contributing, we're all valued, we're producing together. And that's not something that I think we spend a lot of time talking about in schools now that it's so specific to content and how kids do on state assessments and such, but these things transcend all that.

Mike: Absolutely. 

We're at that point in time where I could probably keep chatting with you about this for hours, but you are a busy school educator and you gotta get out of here. I'm wondering though, if you could leave listeners with a thought or a question or maybe a nudge related to their practice, what would you share?

Todd: I first would say I just think it's important to always be reflecting on whose talk is driving the experience. As you think about everything we've talked about today, Mike, is the student talk driving it? Is their reasoning driving it or is it ours? And I think understanding that these talk moves with intention and what they go after and using them consistently with intention, it just starts to shift the balance to favor more student-to-student discourse. And I think it presents as, in turn, more developed community, agency and math practice. And I just think that you get more out of that than [a] high quantity of teacher-to-student discourse or student-to-teacher discourse. So I always offer [to] just pick out a move, try it for a week, find a wing person, collaborate around that, share ideas. How'd it go? What were your barriers? What did you see happening? Just these small shifts I think can create some big opportunities for people down the road.

Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Thank you so much for joining us, Todd. It's really been a pleasure chatting.

Todd: Mine as well. Thank you, Mike.

Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.

© 2026 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org