Episode 1: What is a modern Mi'kma'ki?

In this live episode, recorded before an audience in October 2023 at Paul O'Regan Hall in Kjiupuktuk, shalan joudry, Trina Roache, and Rebecca Thomas, along with Stephanie Domet and Sue Goyette, explore what it means to live in a modern Mi'kma'ki.

Our theme music is by Raymond Sewell from the original soundtrack of the film You Can Call Me Roger, produced and directed by Jon Mann and available to stream now. 

Our cover art is by Jordan Bennett.

Our transcript for this episode was prepared by Tyra Denny, who included anglicized versions of Mi'kmaw words as they were spoken throughout.

This podcast is supported by a grant from the Nova Scotia Department of Culture, Communities, Tourism, and Heritage, and it’s sponsored by ABO Energy.

Find more at https://www.afterwordsliteraryfestival.com/modern-mikmaki

Tell us what you thought by emailing [email protected].

And consider leaving us a review—your review helps other listeners decide to press play on a Modern Mi’kma’ki

 

Transcript

Rebecca Thomas (00:02):

'Ku-way, Neen Del-louise-si Rebecca Thomas, del-lay-ah-we G-book-tuk, Me-ga-ma-ki Wet-ta-bec-si, Lenox Island, Ay-bu-kwet. Hi, my name is Rebecca Thomas. I live here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and my family is rooted in Lennox Island First Nation, Prince Edward Island,

shalan joudry (00:17):

Del-louise-si Shalan Joudry. Neen Ah-tu-gu-ay ah-k ke-ku-na-ma-si wu-la sis-ga-muk. We-ki Oh-suk-kuk I'm Shalan Joudry. I'm a storyteller and an ecologist, and I live in Elsetkuk, first Nation

Trina Roache (00:33):

Ku-way Del-louise-si Trina Roach del-lay-ah-we Gloosecap, First Nation. Hi, I'm Trina Roach. I belong to the Gloosecap First Nation. A Mic-maw community here in what we now call Nova Scotia. I'm a journalist and I worked for APTN, the Aboriginal People's Television Network for many years. Now, I teach journalism at the University of King's College here in Ok-gi-book-tuk. More and more I find myself asking the question, "how can media decolonize the way we tell stories in a modern Mi-k-ma-ki?"

Sue Goyette (01:39):

Hi, my name is Sue Goyette. I'm a poet and educator and I live in G-book-tuk, Halifax Nova Scotia.

Stephanie Domet (01:45):

And I'm Stephanie Domet. I'm the co-founder and co-executive director of the Afterwards Literary Festival in G-book-tuk Mi-k-ma-ki. And this is a modern Mi-k-ma-ki. a four-part podcast in which we're asking questions about what it might feel like, look like and be like to live in a modern Mi-k-ma-ki today and in the future. So, what you'll hear in this first episode is a live conversation that we recorded in October, 2023 in front of an audience at Paulo Regan Hall in Halifax Central Library. On stage that night were Shalan Joudry, Trina Roach and Rebecca Thomas. Whose voices you'll hear in conversation throughout these four episodes. You'll hear me too asking questions. Also, on stage with us then and in our subsequent conversations was the poet, Sue Goyette. Who contributed warm energy and companionship and the listening and learning ear of a white settler. You won't often hear her voice in these conversations, but her presence with us was vital and we were glad of it.

(02:48)
So, we began the night with a poem from Rita Joe called "My River Runs Free". Suppose you were I and you accepted everything in resignation. Bending to all of the wishes since discovery. Supposing I were you and I worked on your spirit to do my bidding. Like the river's rush of overflowing banks, carrying the debris across the land. The waste, desecrating the beauty that is supposed to be there. The beginning of our contact, marred by oppression for so long. But we are not trading places. We are who we are. And you still acting like the overflowing river, creating a turmoil where it is supposed to run smooth. I am a native of this beautiful land still bending to your wishes. My children read of your heroes not mine. Reading of your heroes who put a bounty on my head putting salt on my wounds every time their names are mentioned.

(03:52)
Do you not think it is about time we compromised? I am a native of this land. Let us trade places this time. You see my side of the story. Maybe, we may reach others who do not see. Opening their eyes against the ignorance of racism. A broken record of willpower gone wrong. Where else can this river flow? How high the banks? the seed has to land somewhere. Why not here? Canada, Canada let us not be backward, but go ahead. Discrimination does not suit the land. Our rivers run free. We educate, we practise, we tell, we love, we love. I should know I have worn your moccasin for so long. Today I want to wear mine. My story told in the schools. Today I share "My River Runs Free".

Stephanie Domet (05:08):

Ku-way, neen del-louise-si Stephanie Domat. Neen Del-lay-ya-way G-Book-Tuk. I'm the co-founder and co-executive director along with Ryan Turner of the Afterwards Literary Festival. We are thrilled to have you with us here tonight and we do all our festival work in G-Book-Tuk, in beautiful Mig-ma-ki where we're so fortunate to live. This beautiful place is the traditional and unseated territory of the Mig-ma people past, present, and future. I'm standing on this land tonight with a lot of gratitude. For the waterkeepers, the language keepers, the story keepers, the knowledge keepers. I'm thinking about the uncertain future we're always heading into and how indigenous ways of knowing and understanding are the ones I want at the fore leading us.

Stephanie Domet (05:57):

Because those ways are informed by relationship. And I'm really grateful to the writers of the ones who will be here tonight and many others. And the thinkers and storytellers and activists who are letting me learn from and with them. So, I think of a land acknowledgement as an invitation. To consider how and where I'm standing and what my responsibility is to this place. And to everything and everyone I'm in relationship with. And then to do my best to be a better cousin today than I was yesterday and a better cousin tomorrow than I am today. Maybe you see that invitation too. So this is a live recording of for all intents and purposes, the first episode of a new podcast called "A Modern Mi'kma'ki".

(06:41)
The idea for this podcast arose out of an ongoing conversation that Shalan Joudry and I have been having over the last several years. And we started by talking about language reclamation. And one day Shalan observed that a learner can pick up all the vocabulary words they want. But ultimately, to learn to speak Mig-ma requires a kind of paradigm shift. A cultural shift in thought. And at some point in that conversation, she dropped the phrase a "Modern Mi-kma-ki". And I said "what's that?" And she said "I don't know." And I said "well, I want to live there. How can I live there? What do I have to do to live there?" And, so basically here we are. Ready to begin the public conversations that might move us closer to living in a Modern Mi-kma-ki. So, over the last six or so months, Shalan and I expanded our conversation to include Trina Roach and Rebecca Thomas along with Sue Goyette. And I'm going to invite Shalan, Trina, Rebecca, and Sue to join us here on stage. What I really want to do is throw it open to conversation with the kind of a central question. Shalan, and it's one that I posed to you all those months ago "what is a Modern Mi-kma-ki?"

(07:58)
Take it away, Shalan.

shalan joudry (08:02):

I will spell it out for you. No, no. This is the ongoing quest and vision. So, you know. When we say that our elders have taught us to vision forward many, many generations. For example, Seven Generations or more. I mean, how many of us have actually tried to do that? And I have. And so when I think about not just the future, but, as it ripples back to me. What is my role in my very short lifetime in looking back and honouring our past. And then trying to do what I need to do in order to be a good ancestor. What are the things that I need to do? And we all know that we no longer live in the same ecosystem or society that our ancestors lived. And every single day I feel like many of us wrestle with, "okay then what are we bringing with us from so many generations ago?"

(09:13)
What are we trying to reclaim from so many generations ago? What are we trying to keep alive from so many generations ago? What of those things are still part of our lives today? Because not all of them are. So what are the things that I still want to be alive and for me to be living and passing on to my kids? And then I feel like we just have so many conversations about that. So, because I think about that, then that's why it comes up in conversation. Well, what is not only the Modern Mi-kma-ki today. But what is the Modern Mi-kma-ki that I can dream up? The best case scenario and that dream, that vision is what I want to head towards. Those are the dreams that get me out of bed in the morning because there's so many disaster stories. And there was one time we were on conversation, I was like, "I'm having a bad day ah ha people". There's so much negativity. And so, how can we brush enough aside to say, "but I still have enough hope to launch me into action" as well. And not feel like it's all futile. And so these are the things that I feel like we've been speaking about. So I'd like to keep passing that on.

Rebecca Thomas (10:35):

Well, I mean I'm writing notes as you're talking. It always gives me ideas to think about. Like "how do it be a good ancestor?". And I also think about we seek and we try so hard to preserve because we have so much of our culture. We have that dubious honour of being the first contacted here in North America. And I feel sometimes, a lot of times people speak about what was lost or the thread bareness that is culture here on the east coast. But I also hope that while we seek to repair and to reclaim. That we also push for flexibility within our communities and within our culture for ways to be more inclusive. We have a long standing history with culture and religion and colonialism that sought to make us very rigid and unforgiving of certain community members. When we think about our two-spirit community members for example, "how can we then to be a good ancestor to our two-spirit kin?" The ones who have always been here, be able to push for that flexibility. Where we allow our culture to be a little bit more flexible to ensure that they can find space back into our community again.

Trina Roache (11:48):

I knew that question was coming. Cause it's in the title. Uh, and I actually just looked up the definition of "modern" and it was relating to present or recent times as opposed to remote past. And I was like, "I don't know that, that is something that I would think of in terms of Mig'maw people". We're not today in opposition to the past. And then you have to think of what past? I mean, there's like thousands of years. Are we talking pre-contact or colonial past? So anyways, but I was like "the cultural values, we still have those.". I don't think like ah, I have a whole rant that I do when I'm teaching about timelines and time and history. As sort of a path that goes from back there and goes forward and going backwards is bad and going forwards is good. Making progress is good. And so sometimes we tend to think of like people in the past as more or as less civilised.

(12:59)
Obviously, we're all familiar with the language that's been used around indigenous peoples. But it's also that for Mig-ma people um, bringing those cultures. (the audio, *laughter* no I'm just joking. You can make that noise. It's fun). I have four grandkids, so I welcome any sounds of youth in the audience. But bringing those cultural values forward. Like bringing them now here, it's really hard to get away from the language of time. So ingrained in the way we talk. Like, what does that look like? Because change is like, we're just in flux all the time. Indigenous people, we're just in change and we're just in flux. And so a Modern Mi-kma-ki can have those cultural values that are from our ancestors and what we hope we're doing for our future generations. But it can exist now. It can all exist at the same time. I can drive in my car and still be Mig-ma, right? Even tonight, I know that there's some women at the friendship centre learning how to render bare fat, right?

(14:25)
The Dal Mawiomi, (which was awesome) last week on campus at Dalhousie. And there was a young gentleman, (he was probably like 19 or 20) and he was letting us know, he came over to tell us that the food that they were serving for elders was ready. And he like pointed to the food area with his lips, he did the "lip point". And I'm like, "that is Modern Mi-kma-ki right?" That you're there on a university campus in 2023. And this young kid just like points with his lips. He did include me among the elders and I was low-key offended about that. But I did go over and get some food. So *laughter*.

Rebecca Thomas (15:10):

I have a question. So, you were talking about time and your rant about time and this progress and moving forward. And somebody asked this question once, (and I can't remember where it was or if I saw it on Instagram.) but they said, "if you were to think about the year in your brain in like 3D, what does it look like? If you think of all the months, what do they look like?" And for me, I've always pictured them as a clock. Every January is one, February is two, March is three, and so on and so forth. And the person was talking about how that's not how they see the year. They see it in two lines. And so I'm curious like. When you're thinking about time, you know, me and my husband were driving here and we saw in a window of a clothing store. Low rise cargo pants and two tops. And I'm like, "fashion is a circle, time is a circle". And I'm curious like, when you think about what does it look like? Like time in that way. Cause I think how to be a good ancestor, but we also are our ancestors, right? At the same time.

Trina Roache (16:15):

I always picture the double helix, right? There's Mig-ma of petroglyph. Um, that, I don't know if that one's faded or gone. But it was down at Keji and it's like a "spirit road, Ski-day-da-muj". Yeah. And can you say it again? "Ski-day-da-muj Aw-de?" Yeah, yeah. Spirit road. But it looks like a double helix. It's the Milky Way, right? Spirit road. But it just has this sort of like, so it just goes like that. And I think that's how I sort of picture time. This weaving, rather than linear but not necessarily or like a spiral. So maybe there's a circular motion, but we're not in one, we're not in flat,

Rebecca Thomas (16:56):

We're not 2D.

Trina Roache (16:56):

Yeah, we are like moving. Yeah, that's what I picture.

shalan joudry (17:00):

Yeah. So we can. I understand, we can exist and think about time. Where that soup of the days old like porridge and how old are the peas in the soup. That we have elements of the past and it's still alive and the stories are changing even though they're very old stories. It's changing. They're alive right now and we're inspired by, we're living the past, we're living the future right now. But then honestly also I come from a background of conservation ecology and I worked on species at risk for about 15 years. So, for both the ecosystems and cultural, our cultural integrity of our people. That for both of those things. So, change is very natural. Change always happens. So the horrific thing that I have had to come to terms with and figure out "what do I do now?" is when there is too much change too quick. So too much, too quick that unbalances. So when too much ecological change has happened or too much all of the colonial impacts on our people. So that is also a product of something that actually I shared Picto is it's not of the past, it's still happening, colonialism is still happening.

(18:45)
So, I think those are the things of why I keep picturing reaching back. I'm trying to go underground. Through all of those colonial and we could say years or impacts or I'm trying to reach. And so for me sometimes that is, it's not that I'm trying to make it super linear. It's that that's my mechanism of imagining healing. Because I imagine this whole crevice, this whole barricade. Something that had tried to stop continuation of our culture. That wasn't successful. Like you just said, we have songs and dances and stories and language. All these things have survived. We are resilient and powerful and all of these things are still there. But there's a lot of things that were made very, very small, hidden. And those are the things that we're trying to blow that ember and make these beautiful fires. So, I guess it's not necessarily of trying to really make that those time periods. But how can I reach wherever it is those pockets of things, of cultural things, that I want to reignite because of the impacts of colonialism.

(20:13)
And so, either that's a product of history or present or so these are the questions about, I like the fact that you brought up that we don't have to be in opposition to the past. Modern is just this question. And it's that a lot of times, when I was going to the public school system (years and years and years ago). That every time that I would hear about indigenous people. It was very short, but it was like a photograph. "This is how the used to be. They used to live in Wigwams", but we don't now. Culture is still alive now. And so that's what I love about this conversation is reminding people. You can still be living culture that is very, very old and living culture that is new. Do you know that there are new Mig-ma songs and new dances, new philosophy. Like Albert Marshall talking about "Auto-wa-tu-muk". Well that wasn't something that was like invented a thousand years ago. These are new philosophies and new words and new songs and dances. And so, those are the things that we want to continue to talk about and share.

Trina Roache (21:32):

Yeah, I think we reclaim, but we also reimagine. Just the way our ancestors would've. I had this moment down at, because I was down at Keji-mu-ku-jik National Park in the summer. And my kids were there was that archaeology camp, (our kids were camp counsellors) and we went to see the petroglyphs. And I had this conversation with the tour guide and I said I, "I wonder (because those are what, five to 800 years old? I could be wrong on that).(There you go. 844 is that someone said.) But whoever put those petroglyphs there, (well multiple people I would imagine) what were the petroglyphs that were there for them, that were there from 500 years ago? Or before that and then 500 years before that and then 500 years before that?" And them saying, "what do you think the ancestors meant?" They were having these conversations. So we are just continuing that conversation.

(22:38)
We've just really been through, like you said, an immense period of fast change. And you said at Auto-wa-tu-muk and when we were talking. Because you first mentioned this, and you said there was four episodes of Modern Mi-kma-ki and I was like, "oh, you could have those four sort of key concepts". Don Weji-scali-at-ti-aq, Right? This is where we sprouted over 10,000 years. I mean the records go 13,500 years. You can sort of say that for now until we find the archaeologists find some new evidence. "Autu-wa-tu-muk" (two eyed seeing) that idea of using the best of both. "M-sit No-kim-maq", (we are all related, all my relations) "M-sit No-kim-maq" which is just family, but not just family. It's also our environment and things around us. Like how we're connected and "Net-tu-kil-limp-k" that idea of balance and sustainability. And so, they might've been practised differently obviously, but now that we still have those kind of key principles. It's just that our technology is different and we're reclaiming things because there's been so much damage from colonialism.

Rebecca Thomas (23:58):

I mean also when I think of the "Modern Mi-kma-ki" when you're talking about the petroglyphs (and then the petroglyphs from before and from before). And I like to imagine humour and levity taking place at that period of time. I think we find something and we go "oh, this is so important. This is so serious. Oh my god". And it could have been somebody being like, "Hey man, get a little of this guy. He thinks this looks like a deer." you know. Like here has to be like, there was joy and levity. And those were some long dark winters you know without Netflix and without internet. Right like, they had to find humour and joy somewhere. And so sometimes, I do in my imagination like to kind of insert these moments of absurdity that would've happened. Or these petroglyphs and it was a competition and somebody was trying to draw something like it was Pictionary. It cave *laughter*. Because I think we talk about these folks from so long ago.

(25:00)
I can imagine that to live in that world and have to gather all your food and all of your firewood and all that sort of stuff. Would be extremely hard. But we know that we have such great senses of humour because of so much that we've endured to find that levity. In order to preserve healing and hope and innocence and joy. That surely they had the same some kind of humour in that regard. And so when we find these very important things found and carbonated and dah, dah, dah. I like to think of it as being a mistake. Or just, I don't know. It helps bring, it helps humanise that past a little bit. And I remember the story, I was working in the Mig-ma-ki Debert Cultural Centre, like the archaeological impact assessment dig. And I worked on it for a summer and I just basically dug holes in the woods for four months and man was I in shape.

(25:52)
And they told the story about how they found this really preserved, perfectly preserved artefact, broken into. And they found one part around where there was a ton of flakes. Impact flakes from like a work site, where people would've been making a lot of tools. And then the other piece was like 10, 20 metres away and it was perfectly preserved. You can tell it didn't have a lot of wear because you tend to sharpen things on the edge and so they get thinner and thinner. But the end stays kind of bulbous because that's a harder bit to sharpen. But this thing was perfect, never been used kind of thing. And what the story that got imagined, was that this person was putting in that last little bit to get that fluided in there. So that they could put it into a piece of antler or a piece of wood and they broke it. And the person was just like "ah, shocked it". *laughter*. And I think that's for me, like bringing that huge whole bit of people of humanity and humour and joy. And folks who know me know that I make lots of jokes and I have a hard time sometimes. Sometimes I take myself too seriously and sometimes I don't take myself seriously enough. And I think that there's got to be ancestors who have that same, you know, tongue in cheek personality. Chucking (no doubt) drawn deer on the walls and chucking their flew to drills across the forest floor. *laughter*

Trina Roache (27:17):

Parks were probably funny like for tens of thousands of years. *laughter*.

shalan joudry (27:24):

But it's good to remember like, (*laughter*) what is the parts of us that are just simply human. If you were to take all of our hearts and minds and just transport us in the past. No matter where it was around the world or just.

Trina Roache (27:41):

I wouldn't survive very long. *laughter*

shalan joudry (27:45):

But just like heartbreak and joy and humour. It's a human thing. And those are the timeless things. We are all so human no matter what language we speak or where we've grown up on the planet. And that's why I love when we're taught that when you play that drum. You know, it's the heart beating. It's that same song that's inside of all of us. And it's really great when we remember, "oh yeah, this is what our people of have always been like". But that's what humans, what are the things that really connect us as being humans on the land?

Trina Roache (28:22):

That is my rant about timelines. I have a slide and a lecture and it's that flat line and it'll say "30,000 years ago, indigenous peoples arrived usually from across the bearing strait". (which is a racist theory, don't believe that). And then it's a flat line and then it'll say "1000 AD, Vikings visited". And then it gets very, very busy in the 16 hundreds, 17 hundreds. It gets very, very populated. And I'm always "like, that is not a flat line. That line had a heartbeat". There was families, and societies; and alliances; and wars; and governance; and astrology; and (no wait, no) astronomy. There might've been astronomy.

Rebecca Thomas (29:14):

Might've been. Could you imagine like12,000 years ago, Mig-ma people asking, "what's your sun moon in rising?" *laughter* "No clan system, just astrology". (We might be onto something).

Trina Roache (29:29):

And so, there's this narrative like when we talk about archaeology too. I just read "Becoming Kin" Patty Krawec's novel. And I had talked to her and she has this line where she talks about the "bearing straight theory". But its archaeology lays its stories on top of ours. And ah, there's this narrative that gets shaped, right. "Somehow we were here or somehow we came across. We were from somewhere else. We just got here". We're basically settlers too or we're silenced, we're just not in the narrative. Or there's that idea that um, (I've joked before) that like, pre contact like we were just considered, (I don't like the word nomadic, it just is used to sort of describe this aimless wandering) But like, if you play video games. (which I don't). But "the NPCs" and the movie "free guy" where they're just bumping into the wall. And it's until the main players show up, but they're always just in the background even then.

(30:27)
And it's like, I think in the colonial narrative we are like, there was just nothing here, nullius. And we now, that's the beauty of storytelling. And I think we're all storytellers here in different ways. But it's to shape that narrative and to reclaim that narrative and to assert that narrative. Because the one that's sort of predominant. (and you can say it's so much better now, and I think it can be) But um, journalism, bias is bad. And so then me being like, "how do you just maintain your neutrality and just avoid being an activist?". And now I've learned to say, "just don't be so racist" if you ask that question. *laughter*.

Stephanie Domet (31:13):

I do think "Don't be a racist" is probably a very helpful conversation too.

Rebecca Thomas (31:18):

I've done lots of facilitating for diversity inclusion training. Like the mandatory training that public servants have to do and all that sort of stuff. And I co-facilitated it with my friend from St. Lucia. And we used to always say, "we have two things for you: if you cannot do these two. If you can do these two things, you're welcome to leave. If you can't do them, then you have to stay for the day". "And it's make smart choices and don't be shitty" and everybody stays. *laughter*. So there's, there's an awareness I think of our you know. We have caps on our capacity, right? And so, I think there's a general broad awareness of it. But you get put in those positions. It's my capacity. Polite, sometimes isn't always there. But I think because we are, there's more that's asked of us sometimes.

Trina Roache (32:12):

Well, and when there's conflict right? Everyone can be nicey nice when there's nothing at stake. When there's lobster at stake or someone's livelihoods at stake. Then we see the veneer come off really very, very quickly.

Rebecca Thomas (32:29):

And then you see racism, violence, and all kinds of snappiness.

Stephanie Domet (32:41):

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shalan joudry (33:40):

What we were talking about for a few years, (and it keeps coming up in conversation and you actually just brought it up) is the Mi-kma language. So, that's one of those things that was shrunk on purpose. You know, that was the effects of the Residential School System and other assimilation policies. That is why there are no fluent speakers left in our community of O-suk-kuk. Not to say there's no language. Some of us have been working very, very hard (Ul-new-we-see Kish-ka). Alright so, we have some language. But there's no fluent speakers. And that was by design. And we're working very, very hard against that to reclaim language. To bring it. To blossom it back out again. And so, when we're talking about the Mi-kma language, that these conversations too about um, "what do I want in a Modern Mi-kma-ki?". If I can imagine that ah, that there was more cooperation ah between all peoples living here in Mi-kma-ki. That we were able to as Mi-kma, keep our laws and customs and language and all these things. Then there's no reason why we can't have that now. That that dream can still exist and what does it take to get there?

(35:15)
But that it also takes that is so. Modern Mi-kma-ki is about the full full collective. So, here we are having this conversation, but we were always very aware. Stephanie, that this is a community. A communal conversation about (if we all believe in that) that "there's nowhere else in the world where the Mi-kma language is the language of that homeland. But here!". So, nowhere else can we go around the world and say, "okay, well here we're going to go back to the homeland of this language and reclaim some of the words.". But, we can say that for most of the other people who've landed here. "Well there's a homeland to that language, but here is the homeland of that language". And so, it takes more people than us to be able to help reclaim that language. That we can be speaking that language together (you know). And so, that's why, Stephanie, I feel like you've implicated everybody in this conversation. So, we're instigating "have this conversation, but that we're expanding it out to everybody" to say "this is a communal effort to heal to together".

Trina Roache (36:33):

It's interesting because I think sometimes we think, like we say, (you mentioned earlier, "we were like the first that dubious honour of being the first to be contacted. like aliens or something.". And ah, you can go back to, (I mean I guess) we could say the Vikings in 1000. Or 1610, Chief Membertou gets baptised. Whatever date you sort of want to pick. But, that is not when you have those real harms of colonialism. I mean you have war and you have disease and you certainly have things happening through the 1500s, 1600s hundreds. But you have Mi-kma-ki very much still in control. The Mi-kma are still in control of Mi-kma-ki. Up until like, probably the late 1700s hundreds. And then of course, there's a lot of displacement, loss of land; access to resources. But you still have the language. You still have kin groups living together in community and Mi-kma-ki.

(37:38)
(I mean, Mi-kma-ki goes from Quebec to Maine). We're here in what we now call "Nova Scotia". (We can talk about renaming and remapping) But um, ah we're here now. And um, I'm doing my graduate studies in history and focused on centralization and the impacts of centralization. And so centralization, (if you don't know) was a forced relocation policy in the 1940s. Here in Nova Scotia, all Mi-kma were to move to just two reserves. Mainland Mi-kma would move to Sip-in-na-ka-di or Shubenacadie (as it was called at the time). And in Ou-na-ma-ki or Cape Breton, they would move to Eskasoni. And it failed, because Mi-kma are not passive. We're active agents in our own story. And so it failed, but it did do a lot of damage. It displaced a lot of people. People had their homes burned behind them as they left. It really interrupted kin networks and what are the two biggest communities today?

(38:36)
Sip-in-na-ka-di and Eskasoni , right? So it worked to a degree and it really disrupted. But when you start reading, (like, even like) up until 1960, we were one band of Mi-kma in Nova Scotia. Like, It was one band. You had reserves and everything, but you had one band. You see the language still, (well, we still have the language) but you see it stronger. You saw people living with their kin groups and living in sort of traditional ways. Even through the 1940s. Centralization is what really pivots that. But that's in living memory. That's not 500 years ago. And so we can reach back. We can grasp it. We can grab that. That's not that far.

shalan joudry (39:18):

I hope so.

Stephanie Domet (39:23):

(I really thought I would get away with only asking one question, but you're all looking at me) *you're looking*. So of course, I have a few others in mind. I really love what you just said, Trina, and I'm letting that kind of sit. That is such recent memory, and being able to reach back; and grab that; and the idea of a language that's maybe sleeping a little; and can be (you know) as being awakened. Shalan, I wonder if you would say a little bit about that? What you realised in your travels of learning your language? What you realised about that state of mind? Or a shift in worldview that is what really helped you? (I don't want to say breakthrough if that's not how it felt). But it sort of changed the way that you were looking at learning your language.

shalan joudry (40:19):

First, I must say *laughter* that ah it isn't simply the Mi-kma language that makes us Mi-kma right? We have (in this group) have had that conversation. I get excited when I learn new words and how the language works and a different way of seeing things. I get really, really excited about. But it also, even though I get really excited about it and it gives me more access to "how things were named and why and what knowledge has gone into the naming of these things". Even though I get really excited about that and I feel like it does bring me closer to things that I've been searching for. That still (so does) so does my walks on the land, or when I get to watch my family and my neighbours. (Rosemary's making a birch bark canoe with her bare hands. like how? This is like gorgeous). So, I just want to say that, (as we talk about different components of our cultural identity) that not one thing is it.

(41:31)
(And we've had that conversation too.). You can be any kind of Modern Ul-noo and still be Ul-noo. And so, what's fascinating about (about learning) ah being on this journey, about learning the language. (I think we're all on that journey and) That (that ah) there were so many pitfalls. Think as I thought that almost all languages work the way that English works. "A word is a word" (je wa a saw) "I see a cat". I just thought that's the way language works. But then over the last few years, the more that I have learned, (thankfully that there are so many fluent speakers) we're so lucky that way that we still have so many fluent speakers. And the more that I learn, then the more that I understand, "oh, okay, then well the language works differently. That you know, what does it mean to be verb based? Bernie Francis always teaches us that, but what does that really mean?"

(42:34)
And then the more things that you learn about "how things are named?" and the base of that word is actually "a verb". Like how an oak tree is (he, she hides it) "tree". It's like, "oh, because of the acorns". Like wow, that's fascinating. It starts to expand my mind. It's like adding another language you know. It's expanding my conceptual vocabulary for the whole world. But then it does make me feel a little bit closer to (you know) to (our) our ancestors and trying to figure out "(why) when was that named that? Like, how long have people been calling this oak tree? 'She hides a tree'". Like, it's just very fascinating to me. But then, within the language that you add a letter, if (ah) this ah person is known through this other person that we're talking about. Like, first person, second person; third person; fourth person. "fourth person? there's a fourth person? Fascinating. Like tell me more (you know)". And so, I get really excited and it has been a lot of (um) just opening my whole world in the last few years. And I'm so thankful for that.

(43:46)
And then when I get to put those things together, it's like "how do we activate? How do we make sure that the language is active in our bodies and in our conversation?". And that's what language is though. How do we communicate? That language is about communicating. So it's not just some theory about something on a piece of paper. How are we communicating? And that's why if I say "Ul-noo-we-si Kish-ka" "I speak a little bit", (I understand. Yes. See, right? *laughter*) So that, it's these moments. How do we make sure (that we're) that we're activating language. (and ah) But that you know, any amount that we have is really beautiful and how to be gentle on ourselves in this journey. (I just know I'm just looking straight at them because I know we've had these conversations) How overwhelming that can be, right?

Rebecca Thomas (44:43):

(Oh yeah, absolutely. I had ah) I was trying to get the student centre where I work, a Mi-kma name. And so, I had lots of input from students and what they wanted and what they thought. And then I went to Bernie Francis and I was like, "what do I call it? These are what all the students are saying.". And so, he gave me a bunch of different examples and he's talked about that *[indistictive]anate inanimate* . And I was like, "well, how do you know?" Right? I was like, "how do you know this?" I remember when I was learning French and it was "masculine and feminine" and it's just like "you just, just know?" kind of thing. And I got this really big long message back through text. And the way it was explained, (I think he had talked about it) it was parts of a whole kind of thing. And what is required for life and what is required for that thing to even be the thing that it is.

(45:33)
And so he gave this example about "how a fridge in all of the communities is animate because it's required for the life that's there.". "You can't live without a fridge to have all your foods so that you can live.". And he talked about "how a TV though (not required, is inanimate), but the cathode raid tube in it is animate because the TV requires that in order to work.". and all of this kind of stuff. And I was "like, oh man. Very overwhelming.". But it helped break open like a bird chipping away at the shell. It didn't fully break it open, but there's a little crack in a chip and I'm like, "cracks,

shalan joudry (46:08):

Okay.

Rebecca Thomas (46:08):

parts of a hole required for life.". And it can change contextually in community where you may be like "from this community to that community". What is required for the state of life in that world? Can change whether or not you will call it this way or call it that way. And that's when I zoned out and stopped being able to absorb information *laughter*. But yeah.

shalan joudry (46:33):

But Rebecca, there were cracks.

Rebecca Thomas (46:36):

Yeah. There were cracks.

shalan joudry (46:37):

And sometimes in the past I felt like, "oh, maybe this is impossible". What if we actually can't do this in O-suk-kuk? But in the last few years, the cracks and the cracks; and the cracks; and the cracks. And I've just started to have this feeling like, "oh, it might be possible." So I'm here to tell you both. It's possible.

Rebecca Thomas (47:00):

Yeah. Well, and the acceptance that it's going to be hard. And for some reason like when I am, (I don't know how like you folks grew up) but it's like I grew up like this mentality that "unless I was excellent at it right away, then I was not going to do it because it was a waste of time". And like that's how transactionally I was going to be (you know) thought of as successful or worthy or whatever. Right? This kind of thing. And so, if I wasn't good at it right away, then I was "a failure. It was shameful. Just sweep that under the rug. Let's not talk about it. Right?" (Why do we do that?) (I know) But that's, that's kind of part of my upbringing in that generational trauma. And we can talk about a lot of different things as to why that's there. And so when you said "weji-ska- ska-li-aq-teek", I was like, "well, I'm just going to say this in front of a speaker.".

(47:48)
I was on a zoom meeting and that very like, (I don't know how to explain it, like I guess Mi-kma way). She was like, "[indistinctive] okay, what are you saying?" (And then, okay, I'm all hot and sweaty and I'm okay, we'll just continue on with the meeting.) And then like halfway through the meeting she goes, "oooh, I know. 'Wey-ji-ska-ha-li-ah-teek'" *laughter* We right into the mic and we were talking about something else way long. And I'm like, "okay, I got to be like i'll start a little bit bad at something before I get a little bit good at it." You know, the curse of the type A,or the curse of the perfectionist; or the curse of capitalism making you think that perfection is attainable. (when it's not. That's how they keep you working.).

Trina Roache (48:32):

Learning the language is a lesson in humility. *laughter*

(48:38)
It's really hard. I've taken Zoom lessons. My grandmother apparently spoke, she spoke Mi-kma, um but that's where it ended. And again, it's that feeling of "God, it was like right there." It's so heartbreaking. But it's like, yeah, I think as a journalist (you develop a very thick skin as a journalist). So like, if somebody corrects that, I'd just like, "oh, okay". And then I try to commit it to memory. (um I just) Yeah, if you're not using it all the time. And I keep wanting to put those sticky notes up and around my house. Even just to do that time again, "time" *laughter* is so limited. It's so hard to fit everything in, in a "Modern Mi-kma-ki", right? Like it's so hard to fit in everything that we want to do and yeah, just like language. But I need to prioritise it. Because you're right. It's a window (um) into a way of seeing the world that is just invaluable. And I think like, integral to what it means to be owners.

Rebecca Thomas (49:41):

And I think there's an important point to that in like that "Modern Mi-kma-ki" is that to not fall into that trap of like "I have to do everything in order to be 'holy Mi-kma', right?". It's like, "there was singers and dancers and drummers back then. Who probably sucked at singing and fell off beat all the time. And they were no less Mi-kma", right? And so there's this notion of like "I don't have to do absolutely everything" and there's that insecurity. Like, the more I collect, the more things. And I adorn myself (you know) with all of these like, you know, girl guide brownie badges of like "10 Mi-kma words. can just drum; can say [indistinctive] gig; knows what the Ko-ju-wa is". Right? Like, that would somehow create me as a whole Mi-kma. In reality, I already am one. And so there's that. Trying not to get trapped into the idea in the same way. It's like "the woman can't do it all. You got to be the perfect mom and the perfect work boss and blah, blah, blah". And I was like, "that hasn't served us at all". So, I have to figure that, (you know) I'm going to be bad at some things. And that doesn't detract from my il-noo-ness. Right? Like.

Trina Roache (50:52):

I have a very small wheelhouse like. It's like journalism (um) like ran out.

Rebecca Thomas (51:00):

Your hair's very shiny. *laughter*

Trina Roache (51:03):

If you want to like um, ah. I was talking to someone about this. We were talking about like just in (ah) education. Because you know, I work in a University. It's a very colonial institution and everyone loves to use the words "indigenized", "colonised". Now, sometimes I've heard people say "re-indigenized" because it centres like, indigeneity. (I don't know, whatever you re-migmatized. I don't know, whatever you want to call it). And I'm like, you know "I can't start the class with a smudge ceremony. That's not what I do. I have to call Emily in who's sitting in the crowd. Who's our Auntie, our un[indistinctive]." I have to get somebody. I know my limitations. I would never, you know, profess to be an expert on some part of the culture, that I'm not. But I know who I can call. And that is the "M-sit No-ko-ma-q" part of it, right? We know who we can call. Because we still have those ties and connections and you know who to ask. You know to ask Bernie Francis. You know you can pick up and call. And so yeah, we're not supposed to know all of it ourselves because we're part of a community. And so we're diverse, right?

shalan joudry (52:20):

And it always has been and it always will be. So sometimes I like to tell, (particularly teenagers, who are going through that time of life where they're not sure they're starting to measure, really measure themselves against each other. Especially in classroom settings.) But to remind them and to remind us though that we each carry different medicines in our medicine pouch. You know, and different tools. Just what you were saying, Trina. So, when we come together in community, we all bring different things. We're never meant to be all like, "okay, well yeah, you are supposed to do the ceremony stuff and all the storytelling stuff and all of this and all of this" and you know.

Rebecca Thomas (53:10):

"And while you're at it, can you implement the TRC recommendations? Can you help the student apply for a scholarship? Can you bring in an elder?" You know, Sorry. Yeah.

shalan joudry (53:22):

I agree. No, that's it.

Trina Roache (53:24):

But that can be what happens when you don't have good representation, right? Like when you have air, [indistinctive]

Trina Roache (53:32):

You don't have.

Trina Roache (53:33):

You don't have enough. If you're like the one Ul-noo in the room. Or like, they put one person on the board. You sort of end up shouldering the weight of like somehow being expected to know and be able to do all of that. And that can be really exhausting.

Rebecca Thomas (53:50):

It's always, I've learned the power of like, "I don't know". So someone will ask me something, I go "I don't know". And in the panic "you don't know. Who knows? "Laughter*

Trina Roache (54:01):

"I don't know. It's not me".

Stephanie Domet (54:06):

"Good luck. Power of.."

(54:10)
So many takeaways here tonight. I actually feel like this is a really beautiful place to stop for now. Because the idea of many and of that like resilience, and that interconnectedness; and that interdependence. Feels to me, when I think about the place I want to live of a Modern Mi-kma-ki. That's part of what I am drawn to and what I think, "okay, we've been doing it this other way for a few hundred years and it is, I mean, it's not working". Like it's not working. Let's maybe try this way *laughter* and work together. And show up with our pieces and see who else is there and who else knows something and be together in it. That was a very clumsy way to restate what you all just like beautifully stated. But, if you're amenable to it, I would say this is where we leave the conversation for now. To be continued in a Modern Mi-kma-ki. Wel-la-li-oq all 3 and Sue and all of you. (wel-la-li-ek)

Trina Roache (55:23):

Thanks for coming. Yeah. *crowd clapping*

Stephanie Domet (55:34):

Thank you so much all of you for being here with us. And Wel-la-li-oq Shalan, and Trina; and Rebecca; and Sue. I want to thank again ABO Wind, (our sponsor tonight) all of you for being here. Thank you so much. Thanks to Palmer Jameson for recording us here tonight and to the library for hosting us so graciously as they always do. And thanks to all of you. Thanks for coming and safe home.

Trina Roache (56:09):

*mi-kma music playing*

Stephanie Domet (57:01):

Wel-la-lin. Thank you for listening to a Modern Mi-kma-ki. A Modern Mi-kma-ki is hosted by Shalan Joudry, Trina Roach and Rebecca Thomas with participation by Sue Goyette and me, Stephanie Domet. Modern Mi-kma-ki is produced by Afterwards Literary Festival and edited by Palmer Jameson. Our theme music and the music throughout is by Raymond Sewell from the original soundtrack of the film "You Can Call Me Roger". Produced and directed by John Mann, and available now to stream. Our incredible podcast Cover Art is by Jordan Bennett. And this podcast is supported by a grant from the Nova Scotia Department of Culture, communities; Tourism; and Heritage; and it is sponsored by ABO Wind. You can find out more at afterwardsliteraryfestival.com/modern-mikmaki and you can tell us what you thought about the show by emailing [email protected]. And if you would leave us a review. Your review can help other listeners decide to press play on a Modern Mi-kma-ki.