Clarence Penn on Teaching Improvisation, Creating "Safe Spaces" to Learn, and Creating a Movement
Release Date: 12/18/2023
Stan Bicknell on Creating A Life Around The Drums
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
It’s fitting that two weeks after hearing from Chris Turner, a man with one of the most whimsical, intuitive approaches to drums I’ve ever encountered, we encounter one Stan Bicknell, who’s built a brand around a mindful, deliberate, disciplined approach to the drums, and to architecting a life around it. Stan wowed audiences with his appearance on Drumeo 5 years ago. Around this time, his touring career was taking off. But after the birth of his child, Stan made the decision to put his life front-and-center, move back to his native New Zealand, and design a role for drums, drum...
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Chris Turner on Falling in Love With The Drums Every Day
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Chris Turner is kind of the undisputed modern “double kick king”. Which, if that was all he was, might be of less interest to my audience. Luckily he’s also one of the most musical and creative drummers, and one of the most interesting and inspiring humans I’ve met recently. One of the underrated benefits of getting to speak to great drummers is seeing the variety of different ways they’ve achieved, well, greatness. And you learn there are really very different archetypes, from the “acerbic everyman”, to the “systems and discipline person”, to the “rocket-fueled motivation...
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Rob Brown on The Importance of Gigs, Whether Feel Can Be Taught, and The Future of YouTube Drumming
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Throughout the years, I’ve had a running mental catalogue on the go-to videos for certain subjects. Jazz swing, building a solo on the drums, tuning, timing, etc. And when I look back, in a surprising number of categories, the “best resource” comes from Rob “Beatdown” Brown. Rob was among the “OGs” on Drumeo, with a great video about Stewart Copeland, and consistently drops authentic takes on his channel. That’s why I’ve been meaning to have a conversation with Rob for some time. I finally caught up with him in early August, and opened the conversation with a question...
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Ofri Nehemya on Flow States, Lessons From The Greats, and Letting It Cook
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Ofri Nehemaya is barely in his ‘30s, but has already played and toured with Shai Maestro, Aaron Goldberg, Avishai (Bass) Cohen (the same drum chair where Mark Guiliana got his first big break), and Gilad Hekselman. He’s also no stranger to bandleading, releasing at age…I think it was 19;) Ofri has been on my radar since then, and I was excited to ask him about how he practices, how he channels flow, how he approaches moving to a new scene and “fitting in”, and more. You’ll see in the opening minutes I’m trying to pull some practice details out of him, and he just wants to...
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Joshua Crawford on Pocket, Influences, Efficiency in Drums
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
` Two years ago, I did a virtual drum shed with former podcast guest Raghav Mehrotra, the always-entertaining David Cola, and this week’s guest, Josh Crawford. Josh, who rose to fame doing reaction videos to jaw-dropping drummers, is himself an elite player, and in this conversation I wanted to hear his opinions on both sides: becoming the player he is, and also influencer lyfe. Josh is one of the most efficient players I’ve seen - he plays the most intricate stuff while expending a level of energy that looks more like he’s reading a newspaper. We get into some detail as I try to pick...
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Gordy Knudtson - The Hand Whisperer
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
When Gordy Knudtson was gigging in the late 70s, he was using almost exclusively traditional grip, and suffered an injury he says caused doctors to doubt he’d be able to continue playing. Desperate to “work around” his tension, Gordy switched to matched and did one of the great deep-dives on hand technique. You could say he “John Dahaner’ed” drumstick mechanics, but it’s more accurate to say John “Gordy’d” jiujitsu. One of the points I bring up with Gordy is that just as before and after Danaher, plenty of practitioners embodied solid mechanics, if you watch the hands of...
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Benny Greb - Be An Entertainer
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
I had a suspicion Benny Greb would be an interesting and thought-provoking conversation partner, and I wasn’t wrong. I was interested to compare notes with the master-clinician on a number of things that have been top-of-mind, like nature/nurture, the paradox of the subjectivity of - but requirement for skill in - art, gap-click, and overrated drum advice. Benny surprised me at turns, and confirmed my suspicions at others. One of his most-interesting insights, in my opinion, was that he wants to be an entertainer/craftsperson, not just an “artist”. We also managed to touch on Pablo...
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TaRon Lockett (And His "Life Coach") on Humility, Creativity, Erykah Badu, and Hard-Won Lessons
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
TaRon Lockett, who was Prince’ last drummer, who cut his teeth with Erykah Badu, and who was a key member of a scene that spawned Robert “Sput” Searight, Cleon Edwards and Mike Mitchell among others… …showed up to our interview in character as his own life coach. And from that point I knew this wasn’t going to be an “average” podcast episode. It’s perfectly in-keeping with TaRon’s entire approach to music and creativity, though. There’s the dedication to “the bit”, evidenced by TaRon’s philosophy to dedicate himself 100% to assuming the character necessary to...
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Ed Soph - "I Don't Teach Jazz Drums, I Teach Improvisation"
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Today we have an interview I’m very excited about. One of the forefathers of jazz drum instruction - though as you’ll hear he doesn’t like the taxonomy, preferring to say he’s an “improvisation teacher”. The biggest surprise for me upon speaking to Ed is that he’s an iconoclast. His energy is pure punk-rock, and he has no time for the idea of “handedness” on the drums, nor the “walling off” of jazz from other forms of improvisation. Ed and I chat about hierarchies in music, how Denton, TX became a music powerhouse away from either of the coasts, teaching psychology, the...
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Raghav Mehrotra - Playing With The Late Night Band, Bonham, School of Rock, and Musical Maturity
The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Today’s podcast guest first caught my attention with his clean, slamming Instagram clips. Picture closing your eyes and hearing a mix of Clyde Stubblefield, Bonham, and Nate Smith, then opening them and seeing a skinny teenager with a big mop of black hair and an infectious smile, and thinking “this guy is playing this”? To the degree we use the word “prodigy”, Raghav Mehrotra is that. Someone who exhibits a degree of artistic maturity we usually don’t expect until many years later, even though he’s barely in college. (Studying economics at Harvard, btw.) Raghav played drums and...
info_outlineIn this interview you’ll catch a lot of references.
That’s because Clarence was one of the most influential drummers on the early-2000s “jazz renaissance” that happened in New York, and on me.
No matter who the artist was that was drawing out New York jazz students on a Tuesday night, you can bet the drummer was Blade, Ari Hoenig, Dan Weiss, or Clarence. (And later Eric Harland and Marcus.)
And if you look up the personnel from practically any of the most influential bands of the era, you’ll see Clarence in the drum seat.
Two of my favorite examples:
Strange Liberation, which I mention in the interview (“slow down” part is at 6:52)
The Visitor (live version), which contains one of my favorite Clarence solos. (Solo begins at 5:20)
From these examples you’ll get an idea of the “tension” I mention in the interview between tighness/snappiness and looseness/irreverence, and you’ll hear Clarence’s “punk rock mixed with deep love for the tradition” style.
It took a couple of months before Clarence had a spare moment in his busy schedule, which includes commuting from Florida, where he lives with his family, to LA, where he’s on the faculty of USC, but it was worth the wait.
In this conversation, we speak a lot about teaching and learning, a subject of current fascination, given that I’m coaching a small group of 1:1 jazz students. I get Clarence’ philosophy on teaching improvisation, and the limitations of written material.
We also speak about “safe spaces” (not in the politically charged way), and the tension between helping students by holding them accountable, but wanting lessons to be an “oasis” in their week instead of inducing stress.
And of course I can’t waste the opportunity to ask Clarence about what it was like being part of a jazz renaissance, and how he feels that’s different from the current climate…
…not to mention the boundaries of the word “jazz”, and why people who were in the New York scene in the early 2000s define that word differently than “kids these days”.
If you can’t tell from my writing, this was one of my favorite interviews so far, and I know you’ll enjoy it too. If you dig the interview, please follow Clarence on instagram and give him a shout.
Chapters
1:13- Latest teaching gig at USC, and the value of motivated students
12:30 - the paradox of focus
18:10 - why I think Clarence was predisposed to do what he did
23:45 - is jazz dead? (hah!)
27:33 - the definitions of jazz
34:58 - bridging the gap between exercise and improvisation
42:54 - how Clarence practices time