The 8020 Drummer Podcast
Asking Great Drummers The Questions You've Always Wished Somebody Would Ask Them
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Stan Bicknell on Creating A Life Around The Drums
09/03/2024
Stan Bicknell on Creating A Life Around The Drums
It’s fitting that two weeks after hearing from Chris Turner, a man with one of the most whimsical, intuitive approaches to drums I’ve ever encountered, we encounter one Stan Bicknell, who’s built a brand around a mindful, deliberate, disciplined approach to the drums, and to architecting a life around it. Stan wowed audiences with his appearance on Drumeo 5 years ago. Around this time, his touring career was taking off. But after the birth of his child, Stan made the decision to put his life front-and-center, move back to his native New Zealand, and design a role for drums, drum practice, drum teaching, and drum performance, that served his life goals. Stan’s story resonated with me, because I made a similar decision around a decade ago, when I decided to start the 8020 channel. (I should say, I wasn’t turning down touring opportunities.) Speaking to Stan was a great “meeting of the minds”, because we’ve read many of the same books, and thought along the same lines. It’s just that he’s doing practically all of it better than I am. Which inspires an adage - “find the person who’s doing what you want to do better than you are, and draw inspiration from them.” Stan is like the Qui-Gon Jinn of the drums, with his disciplined practice routines, mindfulness, goal-setting, and integration between drums and life. And it shows in his playing. Stan is almost 100% self-taught, which is to say he emulated his drum heroes like Weckl and Vinnie largely without teachers as intermediaries, and while he wouldn’t recommend that for everybody, all that extra work left him with some revised first-principles. He also coaches drummers in not-only the instrument, but in life-satisfaction, and, as the episode title says, building a life around the drums. I hope you’ll find this discussion as fascinating as I did. Chapters 0:00 - setting a goal without assuming you're entitled to the results 6:44 - finding humility by removing gatekeepers 12:05 - the paradox of putting in the time without feeling locked in 17:15 - small world - Richie Martinez shout-outs 20:54 - why routines are necessary for improvement 24:44 - does it ever get any easier? 29:58 - inside Stan's system for improvisation 38:10 - spending a lot of time practicing something abstract 43:49 - identity diversity and being a "whole drummer"
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Chris Turner on Falling in Love With The Drums Every Day
08/19/2024
Chris Turner on Falling in Love With The Drums Every Day
Chris Turner is kind of the undisputed modern “double kick king”. Which, if that was all he was, might be of less interest to my audience. Luckily he’s also one of the most musical and creative drummers, and one of the most interesting and inspiring humans I’ve met recently. One of the underrated benefits of getting to speak to great drummers is seeing the variety of different ways they’ve achieved, well, greatness. And you learn there are really very different archetypes, from the “acerbic everyman”, to the “systems and discipline person”, to the “rocket-fueled motivation machine”. (The last might describe Isac Jamba and Richie Martinez, among others.) Chris Turner has the seemingly-bottomless-pit-of-motivation that some of the other guests have, but it’s combined with an easy-going, “come-what-may” kind of whimsy. He literally says he structures his life to avoid doing anything he doesn’t want to do in a given day. If you’re wondering about the obvious paradox between that approach and the discipline and longevity required to reach his level on drums, I was wondering the same thing, and his answer mildly floored me. Chris says for his entire life, he’s strung together a series of independent days of falling deeply in love with the drums. When I asked him if he’s seen 50 First Dates, the Adam Sandler/Drew Barrymore rom com, he agreed “it’s like that.” I was rather pleased that in this hour-long conversation with the world’s foremost double-kick player, we only broached double kick twice: once as an aside as Chris described his relationship with teaching, and a second time when I say I’m “not going to ask him about that.” Instead we talk about motivation, psychology, finding a relationship with what you love, and his newest object-of-focus, YouTube. Chris has an energy I think you’ll find infectious, and I know you’ll enjoy this convo regardless of the genre you’re interested in. Chapters 0:16 - Chris' unique approach to motivation 6:42 - the "50 First Dates" approach to drums/Chris following his talent 10:42 - finding motivation from adversity 15:30 - Alex Honnold 20:09 - ok, but how does he motivate students? 25:14 - the definition of a "career"? 28:31 - what's the creative direction that's firing up Chris the most 33:33 - how did he come out of the gate with such high quality on YouTube 36:55 - Chris' favorite YouTube inspirations
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Rob Brown on The Importance of Gigs, Whether Feel Can Be Taught, and The Future of YouTube Drumming
08/12/2024
Rob Brown on The Importance of Gigs, Whether Feel Can Be Taught, and The Future of YouTube Drumming
Throughout the years, I’ve had a running mental catalogue on the go-to videos for certain subjects. Jazz swing, building a solo on the drums, tuning, timing, etc. And when I look back, in a surprising number of categories, the “best resource” comes from Rob “Beatdown” Brown. Rob was among the “OGs” on Drumeo, with a great video about Stewart Copeland, and consistently drops authentic takes on his channel. That’s why I’ve been meaning to have a conversation with Rob for some time. I finally caught up with him in early August, and opened the conversation with a question that’s been on my mind a bunch: What does he make of this situation where everybody practices chops, but nobody’s “allowed” to use them? And has that created a situation in which they’re not taught very well. Rob didn’t hold back on that subject, and was equally candid in speaking about the importance of real-world playing experience for the “internet generation”. We veered a bit into the nature/nurture debate as well, speaking about whether “feel” can be taught - my hobby horse is the crowd that seems to think that, even for people with the capacity for good feel, there’s no recourse except to “feel it”. Rob was a bit more open minded to the idea that some people have a better innate capacity. Finally, we spoke about YouTube as a mature medium, and the future of careers in drumming. If you want some unfiltered wisdom from one of the OGs, I know you’ll enjoy this interview! Chapters 0:00 - how does Rob feel about groove vs chops 10:61 - who are "hot" drummers who play clean but not "showoffy" 16:41 - did it take Rob a lot of effort to learn to "flow"? 23:31 - how important is real-world experience for drummers? 27:00 - does Rob have take-aways from his gig experience? 31:29 - what has Rob learned about his audience that's surprised him? 36:15 - is "just feel it" inadequate advice? 41:07 - is feel teachable, or are some people just born with it? 49:10 - what career advice would Rob give to a young graduate?
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Ofri Nehemya on Flow States, Lessons From The Greats, and Letting It Cook
07/22/2024
Ofri Nehemya on Flow States, Lessons From The Greats, and Letting It Cook
Ofri Nehemaya is barely in his ‘30s, but has already played and toured with Shai Maestro, Aaron Goldberg, Avishai (Bass) Cohen (the same drum chair where Mark Guiliana got his first big break), and Gilad Hekselman. He’s also no stranger to bandleading, releasing at age…I think it was 19;) Ofri has been on my radar since then, and I was excited to ask him about how he practices, how he channels flow, how he approaches moving to a new scene and “fitting in”, and more. You’ll see in the opening minutes I’m trying to pull some practice details out of him, and he just wants to talk about flow state and making music, so we go in that direction. (I still suspect he has some juicy shed secrets. Perhaps we’ll explore those in a Part Two.) Chapters 0:00 - what has Ofri been practicing lately? 4:10 - applying practice to music 10:15 - how he practiced playing in flow 15:33 - why we get nervous to perform 19:15 - lessons Ofri has learned from musical greats 27:05 - Ofri's advice on plugging into a scene 33:15 - approaching people with authenticity 36:51 - the story behind Ofri's most famous song
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Joshua Crawford on Pocket, Influences, Efficiency in Drums
07/01/2024
Joshua Crawford on Pocket, Influences, Efficiency in Drums
` Two years ago, I did a virtual drum shed with former podcast guest Raghav Mehrotra, the always-entertaining David Cola, and this week’s guest, Josh Crawford. Josh, who rose to fame doing reaction videos to jaw-dropping drummers, is himself an elite player, and in this conversation I wanted to hear his opinions on both sides: becoming the player he is, and also influencer lyfe. Josh is one of the most efficient players I’ve seen - he plays the most intricate stuff while expending a level of energy that looks more like he’s reading a newspaper. We get into some detail as I try to pick his brain about sticking and his approach to playing around the drums in general. We also discuss the ever-present cold war of chops vs pocket, a subject on which Josh has dropped many-a-humorous-instagram voiceover - whether it’s Nick Canon footage from Drumline or Russell Croww and Denzel Washington - of famous movie characters “arguing” about pocket vs chops. When I pressed him on the subject, Josh had an unexpected take. And of course we discuss the genesis of his internet fame, whether it was planned or serendipitous, and what he reckons he’d be doing if he hadn’t blown up on YouTube. Joshua is both funny and insightful, which is why I have no double you’ll enjoy this little chat. Chapters 0:00 - how does josh think of pocket vs chops? 5:00 - the best way to work on subdivision/placement 6:38 - how is josh so efficient? 10:54 - the Matrix/early influences 15:10 - what are the things josh has *passed* on learning for now 18:55 - estepario 21:33 - shed stories and the utility of sheds 27:58 - red light training 29:50 - how josh got started on youtube 33:55 - josh's non-drum youtube influences
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Gordy Knudtson - The Hand Whisperer
07/01/2024
Gordy Knudtson - The Hand Whisperer
When Gordy Knudtson was gigging in the late 70s, he was using almost exclusively traditional grip, and suffered an injury he says caused doctors to doubt he’d be able to continue playing. Desperate to “work around” his tension, Gordy switched to matched and did one of the great deep-dives on hand technique. You could say he “John Dahaner’ed” drumstick mechanics, but it’s more accurate to say John “Gordy’d” jiujitsu. One of the points I bring up with Gordy is that just as before and after Danaher, plenty of practitioners embodied solid mechanics, if you watch the hands of any of myriad great drummers, from Joe Morello to Philly Joe, to Tony Williams, to maybe Tony’s most famous fan, Vinnie Colaiuta, to modern technicians like Dana Hawkins, it’s clear there’s no shortage of drummers putting mechanical principles into practice. But it’s probably also true that Gordy has extended the understanding of what’s actually happening when these greats play more than anyone at least since Murray Spivack, and, just like Danaher, made it more efficient for beginners to learn. As you’ll see, Gordy also gives me something of a “free lesson”, showing how I could extend on my technique. Video of my thoughts and experiments on this in the pipeline for sure. There’s been much chat around this on calls with my coaching students. Chapters 0:10 - unintended back story 1:49 - my background with Gordy 3:10 - does Gordy think the big dynamic variation in his gigs contributed to his technique 5:57 - is there a value to playing gigs that stretch your dynamic range? 11:21 - weird gigs in our pasts 13:42 - Gordy continues outlining the origins of his approach 22:11 - why every double stroke is by definition open-close 33:56 - the paradox of many great practitioners but few codifiers 45:05 - Gordy's assessment of *my* interpretation of his technique
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Benny Greb - Be An Entertainer
07/01/2024
Benny Greb - Be An Entertainer
I had a suspicion Benny Greb would be an interesting and thought-provoking conversation partner, and I wasn’t wrong. I was interested to compare notes with the master-clinician on a number of things that have been top-of-mind, like nature/nurture, the paradox of the subjectivity of - but requirement for skill in - art, gap-click, and overrated drum advice. Benny surprised me at turns, and confirmed my suspicions at others. One of his most-interesting insights, in my opinion, was that he wants to be an entertainer/craftsperson, not just an “artist”. We also managed to touch on Pablo Picaso, Neitzsche, Vinnie’s Attack of The 20lb Pizza (it’s 20 pounds, I know - I misspoke and under-weighted the pizza during the interview), and why Benny maybe disagrees with me on independence as a concept. Chapters 0:00 - how can you tell if you're meant to play the drums 2:33 - did the drums feel natural to Benny when he first started? 5:35 - on being an entertainer 9:53 - if art is subjective what are we getting better at when we practice? 13:57 - was there a "goodness threshold" for Benny? 16:10 - biggest progress blockers Benny sees in drummers? 20:10 - are there any sacred cows in drum education that Benny disagrees with? 23:17 - "applying rudiments to the kit" 25:17 - Benny's recipe for learning improv 31:13 - JP's story, and why Benny loves teaching 35:45 - is there a place for competition in music? 41:02 - Vinnie, and filling other drummers' shoes
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TaRon Lockett (And His "Life Coach") on Humility, Creativity, Erykah Badu, and Hard-Won Lessons
05/13/2024
TaRon Lockett (And His "Life Coach") on Humility, Creativity, Erykah Badu, and Hard-Won Lessons
TaRon Lockett, who was Prince’ last drummer, who cut his teeth with Erykah Badu, and who was a key member of a scene that spawned Robert “Sput” Searight, Cleon Edwards and Mike Mitchell among others… …showed up to our interview in character as his own life coach. And from that point I knew this wasn’t going to be an “average” podcast episode. It’s perfectly in-keeping with TaRon’s entire approach to music and creativity, though. There’s the dedication to “the bit”, evidenced by TaRon’s philosophy to dedicate himself 100% to assuming the character necessary to perform at his best for any gig he’s agreed to. There’s the fearlessness that helped TaRon “not look back” when he left a college degree program to pursue music full-time after getting some high-profile gigs. There’s the respect for age-old wisdom and the hard-won lessons of playing in church and learning by “respectful hard knocks”, and the dead seriousness of one’s dedication to their art. Then there’s the duality itself, between irreverence, rebelliousness, and independence on one hand, and respect for the tradition and the aforementioned willingness to conform to perform his best on the gig. In any case, if you’re patient, there are lessons, both humorous and serious to be gleaned both from TaRon-as-his-life-coach, and Taron-as-himself. I hope you enjoy this fascinating the surprising conversation with one of the most underrated drummers around. (And if you want to check out TaRon more, I recommend his instagram, .) Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link above above to tell us where to send it! Chapters 0:45 - how did TaRon develop his unique voice 2:30 - early teachers and musical influences 4:51 - how much was talent and how much was hard work 7:09 - memorable hard knocks lessons 9:59 - how much time should drummers allot to technique vs music 16:07 - being a musical chameleon 17:33 - the limits of hard knocks 24:09 - advice for someone who wonders if they have what it takes 28:15 - what drew TaRon to LA 33:54 - how has his practice changed over the years 36:18 - the origins of the "floor tom thingy" 40:41 - his relationship with the practice pad 42:50 - biggest takeaway from playing with Erykah Badu 45:08 - biggest takeaway from playing with Prince
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Ed Soph - "I Don't Teach Jazz Drums, I Teach Improvisation"
05/12/2024
Ed Soph - "I Don't Teach Jazz Drums, I Teach Improvisation"
Today we have an interview I’m very excited about. One of the forefathers of jazz drum instruction - though as you’ll hear he doesn’t like the taxonomy, preferring to say he’s an “improvisation teacher”. The biggest surprise for me upon speaking to Ed is that he’s an iconoclast. His energy is pure punk-rock, and he has no time for the idea of “handedness” on the drums, nor the “walling off” of jazz from other forms of improvisation. Ed and I chat about hierarchies in music, how Denton, TX became a music powerhouse away from either of the coasts, teaching psychology, the value of honesty in music, and more. Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link associated with this eposide and enter your email! Chapters 0:00 - how did the University of North Texas become such a music powerhouse 5:30 - how Ed balances "going deep into the roots" with giving a fast overview 9:00 - why does Ed like Warren "Baby" Dodds so much 15:00 - the origin of Ed's brush approach 19:31 - why Ed doesn't believe in "handedness" 20:59 - how to help a student find their voice 28:17 - how to tell if you don't have it yet or you'll never have it 34:00 - why Ed finds it important to incept students with a work ethic 41:10 - gentle ways to teach touch lessons 51:40 - why Ed doesn't like the label "jazz teacher"
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Raghav Mehrotra - Playing With The Late Night Band, Bonham, School of Rock, and Musical Maturity
04/11/2024
Raghav Mehrotra - Playing With The Late Night Band, Bonham, School of Rock, and Musical Maturity
Today’s podcast guest first caught my attention with his clean, slamming Instagram clips. Picture closing your eyes and hearing a mix of Clyde Stubblefield, Bonham, and Nate Smith, then opening them and seeing a skinny teenager with a big mop of black hair and an infectious smile, and thinking “this guy is playing this”? To the degree we use the word “prodigy”, Raghav Mehrotra is that. Someone who exhibits a degree of artistic maturity we usually don’t expect until many years later, even though he’s barely in college. (Studying economics at Harvard, btw.) Raghav played drums and contributed vocals in the Broadway musical School of Rock at age 15. He’s sat in with Seth Meyers’ Late Night band several times. And now he’s behind the drum chair for Jordan Rakei’s latest album, The Loop. Naturally, I was curious about how he developed such maturity at such a young age. In this conversation we touch early teachers, practice routines, figuring out Instagram, what it’s like to sit in with the Late Night Band, advice he’d give to up-and-coming drummers, and more. Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link in the description and tell us where to send it. Chapters 0:00 - what were Raghav's biggest influences 3:50 - why does he think he got so mature at so early an age 9:00 - who was his earliest teacher? 13:25 - how did he get on Instagram? 15:04 - should drummers be less afraid to put themselves out there? 18:33 - how did he internalize the key details so early 23:18 - how to decide when to "move on" 26:50 - Raghav's zoom-lecture practice strategy/how has his practice routine changed 31:00 - what advice would he give his younger self 34:54 - biggest advice he'd give to the median instagram drummer 37:04 - biggest surprise sitting in with the Late Night band
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Tim Metz - Notes From A Jazz, Youtube, and Teaching Veteran
03/25/2024
Tim Metz - Notes From A Jazz, Youtube, and Teaching Veteran
If you’ve watched more than zero of my videos, you’ll know that there’s a kick drum technique that I endorse pretty unequivocally - simple heel up. Sure, it takes some dialing-in, but my general feeling is it’s the most versatile/least “distance-sensitive” technique for avoiding tension at multiple speeds and dynamic ranges. But what if I was wrong. Today’s interview subject has the opposite take: whereas I switched to “heel up” after several frustrating years trying to coax more volume, power, and speed out of my legacy “heel down” technique, he switched to heel down, when he found heel-up made soft dynamics and playing off the head more difficult. I’m speaking of YouTube OG Tim Metz. In our extended interview, which you can view below, we get into his background co-teaching with Mike Johnston in Sacramento, gig scenes in general, his approach to teaching, and the like, but for purposes of the YouTube video, we went head-to-head to debate the merits of the two techniques. Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link tell us where to send it!
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Richie Martinez of Arch Echo - Questioning The Conventional Drum Wisdom
03/13/2024
Richie Martinez of Arch Echo - Questioning The Conventional Drum Wisdom
If you haven’t heard of Arch Echo’s Richie Martinez, get ready for a rabbit hole. () Richie is one of the most electrifying young drummers around. While he calls the genre of his band “progressive metal”, his playing encompasses a type of "cross-genre” fluency not many drummers have, but it’s exiting when you see it. Equally comfortable in funk, fusion, or prog settings, Martinez brings energy, enthusiasm, and blistering chops to anything he plays. Martinez’ background is an unconventional one - growing up in Houston, he was mostly self-taught until high school. That gave Richie a unique perspective on teaching and learning drums. What’s more, he’s made playing “hard” a science, and coaches many-a-touring-drummer on how to play forcefully without injuring themselves or burning out. And while Richie responded to the question “is there a reason to play forcefully when you can just let the mics do the work” with “yea - do you want to be a LOSER?” He equally obsessed with the mechanics of the low end of the dynamic range, and frequently asks students to play softly on table tops. And while he’s a jokester, he shows an unironic love for the instrument and his students. If you’ve ever wondered about the mechanics of playing drums hard without injury, why some of the “conventional advice” doesn’t always work, or just what a super disciplined player is like to spend time with, I know you’ll love this conversation with Riche.
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Brandon Green - How to Play Drums and Feel Great For The Rest of Your Life
03/04/2024
Brandon Green - How to Play Drums and Feel Great For The Rest of Your Life
Want to play drums injury-free into your 70s and beyond? I sure do. Today’s video guest, Brandon Green, was coaching elite athletes when a high school friend’s struggle with injury inspired him to utilize his skills to help drummers. Since then, Brandon founded the Drum Mechanics YouTube and Instagram channels, where he breaks down the setup and movement of some of your favorite drummers, and gives tons of free advice to help all drummers improve our setup and movement. I wasn’t an uninterested party. Since becoming a “tall guy” I’ve always struggled with “Ichabod Crane Posture”, and over the past couple of years I’ve been experimenting with setup mental cues, and exercises to help me move better. Brandon weighs in on the posture conundrum from both philosophical and practical angles. Then I ask him to help resolve something I’ve always had confusion about: rack tom angle. And the answer surprised me. (But I’m making a change.)
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Andy Prado on The Case for Chops, The "Why" Behind Drumming, and The Importance of Authenticity
02/20/2024
Andy Prado on The Case for Chops, The "Why" Behind Drumming, and The Importance of Authenticity
Andy Prado is a drummer’s drummer. Talk to practically anyone you’ve heard of about who their favorite drummers are, and Andy is likely to be in that sentence. He’s one of a small list of drummers you could call “elite choppers” - a list that includes people like Ron Bruner, Mike Mitchell, and not too many others. As such he’s in both an enviable, and an unenviable position. And you better believe we dig into the multi-edged sword of “chops”. (It’s way harder than you think to get them, you don’t have anything to “hide behind” like groove drummers, and when you reach the top of your profession everybody either wants to be you, hates you, or both.) Andy touches a bit on the unhuman work ethic necessary to reach the level he’s reached. We also get into: Huey Lewis and The News - based or cringe Andy’s weekly routine and The importance of being authentic Whether drummers’ outward personalities match their music How Andy is also an elite groove player and much more I know you’ll enjoy this light-hearted convo with one of the LA OGs, the GOAT, as Forrest Rice calls him. Andy's Links Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andypradojr/ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@andypradojr6186 Coevality Band - https://www.instagram.com/coevalityband/ The Golden Age by Wires - https://wirestheband.bandcamp.com/album/the-golden-age Scarypoolparty - Sun Moon Earth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvO39Y2692M
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Arthur Hnatek on Creating Drums for Tigran, Creative "Family Trees"
01/24/2024
Arthur Hnatek on Creating Drums for Tigran, Creative "Family Trees"
Whether or not you’ve heard the name Arthur Hnatek, you’ve probably heard the drummer. If you love Tigran Hamasyan, by definition you love Arthur Hnatek. Since the Mockroot album, Arthur has been creating unique drum parts for Tigran, and weaving himself deeply into the fabric of the band, and the albums. As my interests currently sit at the intersection of jazz and prog rock, I was extremely interested in who Arthur’s influences were, and how he’s developed his voice. We start out having the usual conversation about developing a music voice, but quickly segue into “musical family trees” - i.e. is Keith Carlock the “grandfather”, and Mark G and Nate wood the “fathers” - something I’m gratified that Arthur likewise found fun. Maybe most fascinating, Arthur didn’t ever consciously play prog rock, but rather absorbed it via osmisis. Insights like, and something surprising about Tigran’s input into drum parts, abound in this interview. Know you’ll enjoy.
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Brandon Scott on Being a YouTube OG, Murdering Out Your Video Production
01/16/2024
Brandon Scott on Being a YouTube OG, Murdering Out Your Video Production
When I was first getting started on YouTube, there were only a few drummers doing the same thing. One, of course was podcast guest Mike Johnston. Another was Brandon Scott. Brandon brought great playing, low-key humor, and humility to his videos, and immediately captured attention. Over the years, as my production quality stagnated, Brandon kept leveling his up, becoming a student of great filmmaking in general, and youtube videography in particular. Recently his video chops caught the attention of Drumeo, who hired him to make a few one-off video ads. That gig turned into a full-time position as a Drumeo videographer, as part of which Brandon regularly commutes to Vancouver and shoots spots for artists like El Estepario Siberiano. I knew I wanted to get Brandon on a call to help me with my video production, and he graciously agreed. We also rap about Brandon’s drum journey, and how/why he low-key sounds so good. (I say “low key” because his playing is never the focus of his videos; he just sounds great.) If you have any interest in YouTube or video production, this episode is for you! Chapters 1:20 - how Brandon got interested in video production 4:34 - Brandon's life story that's led him to be working with Drumeo 9:36 - why was Brandon *early* to killer video 13:43 - oh - Brandon is also a killer player - how did he get good 21:20 - hand speed isn't the limiting factor 22:51 - video production basics 27:48 - the number one advice Brandon would give ME 29:40 - the camera explained 35:20 - camera placement and lights - dos and don'ts 39:10 - getting the most out of a cheap camera
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Ari Hoenig on Being an Original, Dealing With The Inner Voice
01/09/2024
Ari Hoenig on Being an Original, Dealing With The Inner Voice
One of my proudest “hipster” achievements was being an early adopter on Ari Hoenig. Long story short, I arrived in New York 3 months before the start of my first school year in grad school, and spent the summer checking out live music with other students who’d stayed around the for summer. One of those things we checked out was Ari. And as such, I was able to share the discovery with my classmates when they arrived in the fall. Who was this guy who looked like he was outrunning demons when he played, who had a crispness and simplicity to his playing, and yet who was pushing the boundaries on so many things. For those in the know, Ari was already making waves with Kenny Werner by the time I caught him with the Jean Michel Pilc trio. But as more and more jazz students cottoned to him, he quickly became the unofficial mayor of what I’d call New York Village Jazz. (As distinct from uptown and downtown jazz.) And his own groups birthed at least a few stellar careers, among them that of Gilad Hekselman. It had been years since Ari and I had spoken - I’d “fanboyed” to him a number of times after gigs - so it was great to revisit one of the most influential drummers when I was in school and the years afterward. In this interview, Ari and I speak about the origins of his unorthodox style, forging a path as an individual artist, how to deal with the critical voice and self-doubt while developing as an artist, his approach to practicing improvisation and more. I guarantee you’ll enjoy this one.
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Matt Halpern on Learning Songs Intuitively, and Why Groove is a Universal
01/02/2024
Matt Halpern on Learning Songs Intuitively, and Why Groove is a Universal
I just learned that being a “youtuber” is the number one career goal of elementary school children. If I could give them one tip it’s “study accounting unless you’re ready for a lot of hustle and at least a few sleepless nights.” But one of the things that makes my “job” worth it is when I get to embark on learning a genre that’s not familiar to me as a science experiment, and when I get to speak directly to one of the leading artists of the genre for advice. Such was the situation when Periphery’s Matt Halpern, one of the most storied prog rock drummers of the past decade, agreed to donate some of his time to sit down and answer my questions. Matt joined Periphery in 2010, and since then it’s been a fairytale whirlwind of records and tours. Despite his busy tour schedule, Matt takes extra time to conduct group masterclasses in tour locations as often as he can, and is extremely passionate about teaching. It was this combo of “cutting edge practitioner” and skilled communicator I couldn’t pass up, so that’s why I asked Matt to teach me - in at least a limited capacity. Part of the pretext for the interview was for Matt to listen to a recording I did of Periphery’s most recent - and most challenging - songs, and give me feedback and advice. And he did not disappoint. From practice psychology, to approaching songs, to body mechanics, to ice baths, he was comprehensive. And I tried to incorporate as much as I could into my final performance of the song. But we also spoke about Matt’s unique approach to playing…well…”mathy” music, in a way that’s human and soulful, and evocative of a previous generation of drummers like Bonham. Then we spoke about teaching in general, and the healing power of jiujitsu. I know prog rock isn’t at the top of the playlist for a big portion of my audience, but I highly encourage you to check out this interview even if Periphery isn’t your cup of tea, because Matt’s insights extend beyond any genre. Know you’ll enjoy this one! Chapters 3:48 - how does Matt approach learning complex prog songs 13:19 - is learning Dracul Gras in a short time a bad idea? 17:56 - the origin of Matt's old-school groove approach 22:00 - did Matt have to work hard to learn groove? 27:19 - how to play loud efficiently 42:00 - why is Matt so passionate about teaching 48:16 - how do you know if you have what it takes to be great at drums
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Clarence Penn on Teaching Improvisation, Creating "Safe Spaces" to Learn, and Creating a Movement
12/18/2023
Clarence Penn on Teaching Improvisation, Creating "Safe Spaces" to Learn, and Creating a Movement
In this interview you’ll catch a lot of references. That’s because Clarence was one of the most influential drummers on the early-2000s “jazz renaissance” that happened in New York, and on me. No matter who the artist was that was drawing out New York jazz students on a Tuesday night, you can bet the drummer was Blade, Ari Hoenig, Dan Weiss, or Clarence. (And later Eric Harland and Marcus.) And if you look up the personnel from practically any of the most influential bands of the era, you’ll see Clarence in the drum seat. Two of my favorite examples: , which I mention in the interview (“slow down” part is at 6:52) (live version), which contains one of my favorite Clarence solos. (Solo begins at 5:20) From these examples you’ll get an idea of the “tension” I mention in the interview between tighness/snappiness and looseness/irreverence, and you’ll hear Clarence’s “punk rock mixed with deep love for the tradition” style. It took a couple of months before Clarence had a spare moment in his busy schedule, which includes commuting from Florida, where he lives with his family, to LA, where he’s on the faculty of USC, but it was worth the wait. In this conversation, we speak a lot about teaching and learning, a subject of current fascination, given that I’m coaching a small group of 1:1 jazz students. I get Clarence’ philosophy on teaching improvisation, and the limitations of written material. We also speak about “safe spaces” (not in the politically charged way), and the tension between helping students by holding them accountable, but wanting lessons to be an “oasis” in their week instead of inducing stress. And of course I can’t waste the opportunity to ask Clarence about what it was like being part of a jazz renaissance, and how he feels that’s different from the current climate… …not to mention the boundaries of the word “jazz”, and why people who were in the New York scene in the early 2000s define that word differently than “kids these days”. If you can’t tell from my writing, this was one of my favorite interviews so far, and I know you’ll enjoy it too. If you dig the interview, please and give him a shout. Chapters 1:13- Latest teaching gig at USC, and the value of motivated students 12:30 - the paradox of focus 18:10 - why I think Clarence was predisposed to do what he did 23:45 - is jazz dead? (hah!) 27:33 - the definitions of jazz 34:58 - bridging the gap between exercise and improvisation 42:54 - how Clarence practices time
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Forrest Rice - Drum-off Stories, Playing Jazz At "The Spud", and Buff Hello Kitty Beats
12/11/2023
Forrest Rice - Drum-off Stories, Playing Jazz At "The Spud", and Buff Hello Kitty Beats
In 2016, I had no business being welcomed into the West Coast drum family with open arms. I had a tiny YouTube channel, and didn’t even play all that well. But that didn’t stop Forrest Rice from inviting me over to shed, and letting me hang with him and friends at that year’s NAMM convention. Forrest first came to prominence after playing in grand finals for the Guitar Center Drumoff, may it rest in peace, in 2014. He’s played drums for Covet and Wolfy, and currently plays with saxophonist Ian Roller. But most importantly, he’s a deep thinker about the drums and music in general. In this conversation I ask Forrest about why he told me to learn the Tony Williams ride cymbal technique in 2016, the differences between jazz and math-rock, east-coast versus west-coast drum styles, “with the grain” versus “against the grain” practice, and more. And he also tells a ten-minute story with a “behind the scenes” look at the Drum-Off, then joins me in a round of ridiculous speculation about how one might resurrect the Drum-Off, without many of the downsides. I know you’ll enjoy this one. Chapters 1:00 - Tony and energy management 4:15 - the double right thing 7:52 - with the grain va against the grain practice 12:27 - Forrest’s take on the critical voice 17:42 - Forrest’s latest thing at the Baked Potato 22:37 - east vs west coast drumming 28:41 - the best guitar center drum off story ever 47:46 - how we’d improve the drum off 52:50 - Forrest’s current projects Show notes Daniel Hayn - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmUTeaLU8SA Forrest’s Merry Little Christmas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iyvl6DRy-c JD Beck and Buff Hello Kitty Beats - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANPbOxaRIO0 Naima Acuna - https://www.instagram.com/naimaacunaoficial/ Cole Riddle with Mike Mitchell - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDgyajeLmPU Maison Guidry GC Drum off 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7PcsposVw Quentin Ferb Milwaukee Gospel Chops video - https://youtu.be/TESIpvdd0VI?si=SyJKb-gn7Nb-JXcq Ian Roller with Forrest - https://www.instagram.com/p/CzHWJwZPC8G/ Another Ian with Forrest clip - https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct66ez9MsWC/ Wolfy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16AMH-axEk
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Greg Hutchinson on Teaching Jazz, "Forgetting" Vocabulary, and Mentorship in The Internet Age
12/04/2023
Greg Hutchinson on Teaching Jazz, "Forgetting" Vocabulary, and Mentorship in The Internet Age
Greg and I have had a few conversations over the years. I took a lesson from him way back in the early 20-teens. We spoke most recently this past February, when internet connectivity unfortunately interfered. But Greg graciously agreed to come back for another chat, and this time the quality came out great. If you know Hutch at all, you know him as the outspoken, funny, larger-than-life presence he is, and look no further than his instagram to see him weighing in and not holding back on…well pretty much whatever crosses his mind. And if you’re an OG fan, you probably remember that he was one of a small group of musicians who - practically on their own - rekindled acoustic/”straight ahead” jazz, after it had been “left for dead” after 2 decades of fusion. The Marsalis brothers and Jeff “Tain” Watts arguably started the trend, but it grew to encompass artists like Josh Redman, Brad Mehldau, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mark Turner, and drummers like Brian Blade and Greg. If you listen to Greg’s playing on any early-2000s recording, it sounds fresh and retro at the same time. One of a number of “new benchmarks” for drummers learning the art, who wanted avatars of contemporary players interpreting the past greats. Drummers like me. The punchline is that though Hutch can be fiery and iconoclastic in his opinions, at his core he’s a very warm and generous human, and it doesn’t take much conversation to uncover how much he cares about mentoring the next generation of musicians. I know you’ll enjoy this multifaceted chat with the one and only Hutch. Chapters 2:28 - how do you build swing from the ground up 5:20 - bridging the gap bet swinging and improvising 8:02 - Greg and John Riley 10:55 - the boundaries of "jazz" 15:26 - let's talk about flurries without talking about flurries 21:30 - Greg's Betty Carter story 23:58 - being "over" your playing 26:15 - the young lions and Greg 29:55 - why are people interested in jazz drumming 35:40 - how do musicians in 2023 find mentorship
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JP Bouvet on Teaching Improvisation, Learning Songs, and Bandleading
11/27/2023
JP Bouvet on Teaching Improvisation, Learning Songs, and Bandleading
I’ve been meaning to catch up with JP Bouvet since I first saw his clinic videos around 2015. At the time I was gearing up to do my own first clinics, and I had no idea what to do or say. JP had been on my radar, of course, since the Guitar Center Drumoff, and the Berklee Chops video. But recently, he’s been putting out some really thoughtful content about improvising on the drums. Of course that caught my attention, because it’s something I’m super focussed on as well. And, as you’ll hear, he and I arrived at a lot of the same conclusions after examining the landscape of drum instruction. In the years since the Drumoff, JP has thought more deeply about how to play interesting things on the drums, what’s going on in his own head as he improvises, and how to communicate that to students, than practically anybody else I’ve spoken to. JP and I also get into bandleading, learning songs quickly, and whether or not you should sing what you want to play - a bit of seeming disagreement. (But was it really? ;) Hope you enjoy this conversation with JP. Chapters - 1:20 - how has his approach to improvisation changed 8:40 - when to start students improvising? 16:10 - how do you entice students to go deep enough without making then bored? 22:20 - why does so little drum instruction focus on improvisation 32:20 - is JP SURE students should never sing what they want to play? 36:35 - our collective ire toward some conventional wisdom 37:57 - how did JP get into bandleading 42:04 - how does JP learn complex songs so fast?
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List Q&A 1 - Dilla Beats, Haters, Harmony, and Time to Mastery
11/20/2023
List Q&A 1 - Dilla Beats, Haters, Harmony, and Time to Mastery
Get the podcast early every week, and get your questions answered on the next Q&A - Links ride cymbal technique - drop catch technique - up tempo brush tricks - dilla beats - Chapters 0:42 - is learning harmony important to learning songs 2:59 - biggest things missing in contemporary drum instruction 5:48 - tips for playing quick 16ths with one hand 8:48 - tips for playing up tempo brushes 11:03 - feeling "Dilla Time" 16:27 - where I find satisfaction 18:52 - how long does it take to become great
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ZackGrooves on Writing for Everything Yes, The Language of Jazz, and Building an Indie Drum Empire
11/13/2023
ZackGrooves on Writing for Everything Yes, The Language of Jazz, and Building an Indie Drum Empire
While Zack Graybeal, aka ZackGrooves, isn’t necessarily an avatar for the average drummer - he seems to have exceptional drum skills, comedy and filmmaking skills, hustle, and timing - he is a great example of what’s possible for an independent drummer in 2023. The fact that noone’s asking him to teach seminar classes at the nation’s music schools leaves me puzzled. But all-the-more opportunity for people like me to feature him on our outlets. Zack was playing gigs right up until 2020, not thinking much about YouTube or social media. Then what happened…happened…and Zack picked up a camera, channeled his sense of humor and love of prank shows and the Nelk Brothers, and started making content. If you’re paying attention, you know the rest. He wasted no time becoming the most meteoric drum YouTuber besides Drumeo. And he didn’t stop there. Zack secured sponsor deals from Meinl and Dixon Drums, did clinic tours of Europe and Asia, and headlined the Meinl Drum Festival and UK Drum Show. And he didn’t stop there. He started a band. Everything Yes. And started touring the world, opening for acts like Sungazer. Obviously, getting the chance to speak to Zack was an opportunity to get his perspective on all this success. But we also talked favorite jazz drummers, his writing process for Everything Yes, and my own struggles learning one of their songs. 1:15 - Nate's process for learning Arrival by Everything Yes 3:05 - does Everything Yes work from charts? 4:50 - Zack's reaction to my rendition of Arrival 6:45 - is sight-reading dead? 8:10 - early Eric Harland experiences 8:57 - should Nate start a band? 10:29 - why Zack likes bands 10:57 - Zack's favorite jazz drummers from way back 12:02 - Nate and Zack's favorite Tain tracks 13:05 - Nate makes the best dad jokes 13:53 - Zack guesses Nate's influences 15:54 - jazz hybrids 18:10 - is Zack really into metal 19:17 - what Nate realized in the early 20-teens 20:47 - where did Zack get his filmmaking chops and sense of humor 22:32 - did Nate influence the timeline, Back to The Future style?
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Joel Turcotte on Independence, Career Moves, and Playing Everything in Sextuplets
11/07/2023
Joel Turcotte on Independence, Career Moves, and Playing Everything in Sextuplets
Increasingly, I want to use the podcast to introduce you to players you may not have heard of, but who deserve wider recognition. Whatever the drum analogy is for jiujistu’s fabled Danaher Death Squad - a crew of upstarts who came seeming out of nowhere and started dominating in competition - Joel is part of that “crew” or “cadre”, many of whom I want to feature on the podcast soon. What happens in 2023 if you have world-class/guitar-center-drumoff-winning ability, but you haven’t “hit big” yet. Every drummer had to come from somewhere. Before he was headlining stadiums with Steely Dan, Keith Carlock was a local favorite at the 55 Bar. Before he was on every gen-z jazz drummer’s influence list, Ari Hoenig was quietly turning heads with players like Kenny Werner and Jean-Michel Pilc. And Joel isn’t just a chopper. Like many guests, he’s reinventing the idiom, little by little. Committing to a musical direction rather than trying to do what “everyone else” is doing. Joel’s also proven his character in the world of social media, where clout-chasing, pile-ons, and “the next thing” are magnetic, by doing what he wants in public, and sticking up for other drummers in public when few others will. Those are among the reasons I want to introduce you to one of my favorite young drummers. Some of you will doubtless have heard of Joel, but if you haven’t, I urge you to check him out by searching his name on the Google machine. Chapters 2:00 - was there ever a time when drums felt like work? 8:28 - is social media an addiction? 14:39 - why is there so little emphasis on improv in traditional drum instruction 19:12 - does Joel get "hot dogs" hitting him up for lessons? 22:30 - how to get into odd-length groupings 30:11 - going from "magic" to "not magic" 38:50 - skating and bjj as analogies for flow 41:15 - a good-natured argument about independence
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John Riley on Nature vs Nurture, How Students Have Changed, Making The 1 O'Clock Lab Band, and More
10/30/2023
John Riley on Nature vs Nurture, How Students Have Changed, Making The 1 O'Clock Lab Band, and More
The last lengthy conversation I had with John Riley before this interview was probably when I was still a college student. That’s why it was super rewarding to catch up with one of drum teaching’s deepest thinkers, and pick his brain about a great many things I’ve experienced and thought about in the intervening years. John and I begin by discussing nature-vs-nurture, when I ask him about a passage in his first book. That kicks off a thread about John’s own musical journey, whether he ever thought twice about drumming, and what really happened during what I’ve come to think of his “magical summer”, between his freshman and sophomore years at UNT, after which he won a seat in the prestigious One O’Clock Lab Band, and a teaching position at the end of the year. John also holds forth on the importance of curiosity to guide practice, and why at a certain level of experience, it can be good to practice abstractions even if they don’t directly affect your day-to-day playing. Finally we speak about how students have changed in the 20 years since I was his student (I feel ancient writing that), and how his approach to teaching has changed. (Of course I can’t avoid bringing up Whiplash.) Like many of my guests, John was extremely generous with his time, and didn’t hold back on his thoughts. I’m sure you’ll enjoy this conversation. Chapters 1:15 - what does John think about nature vs nurture 6:35 - did John ever think twice about the drums as a career path? 9:39 - what happened during John's "magical summer"? 13:25 - why John doesn't like to use written music if he can avoid it 19:35 - John's lesser-known influences 22:45 - how structured are John's practice sessions these days 26:10 - did John reach a point when he felt mostly confident? 29:53 - how have John's students changed in 20 years 37:48 - what's changed about John's teaching approach
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Dan Weiss on Tabla Rhythms, Frankie Dunlop, Flow States, and Developing a Unique Voice on Drums
10/23/2023
Dan Weiss on Tabla Rhythms, Frankie Dunlop, Flow States, and Developing a Unique Voice on Drums
It’s been a few years since I’ve spoken to Dan Weiss, who I’ve known since we were both in the vicinity of our music school in the early 2000s. Dan was, on various occasions, a teacher - such as when he’d sub for John Riley, or when I sought him out for a the odd lesson later on. But mostly Dan was the hard-to-categorize drummer who was blowing everybody’s mind. First on early gigs with people like Tigran Hamasyan, then later with Dave Binney at the 55 Bar, and throughout with people like Thomas Morgan, Miles Okazaki, and Jacob Sachs. Since then, Dan’s gotten a lot of well-deserved recognition, and influenced a generation of drummers. When Dan and I (digitally) sat down, I wanted to reach back to some of my first recollections of hearing him play, and also dig into how he became what he is. Hope you enjoy this conversation - there are a lot of nuggets. Chapters 1:20 - what's the beat called? 3:13 - what was Dan's first exposure to drums 4:27 - what did he do between age 14 and college 7:34 - what did John Riley mean when he told Dan to work on his sound 10:55 - the difficulty being creative while searching for a sound 12:10 - why Dan loves Frankie Dunlop 14:35 - Dan's other major influences 17:15 - how much jazz does he play these days 20:51 - practice routines then and now 24:35 - the Jamey Haddad exercise 29:12 - how does Dan negotiate the online world 31:51 - biggest differences between students 20 years ago and today
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Stanton Moore on Adapting to a Digital World, Clave in New Orleans Music, My Playing, and More
10/16/2023
Stanton Moore on Adapting to a Digital World, Clave in New Orleans Music, My Playing, and More
When I got Stanton on the line, I was expecting we’d talk all about his core passion and expertise - New Orleans music. And we did get there. But it turns out Stanton is also fascinated with the world of online drumming and content creation. I hadn’t realized this, but he’s taken the transition to the “influencer economy” very seriously, and even assembled a production team that helps him produce high quality courses and constant YouTube content. As such we “nerded out” about content creation for a good 25 minutes. If you came to hear Stanton talk Johnny V and Tipitina’s, you can skip over the “online” stuff, but there are gems in there. Eventually we do get to New Orleans music, and Stanton gives a masterclass in how rhythms that sound like clave ended up in a riff his organist Robert Walter played for him in 2010 - hint: because there is clave in New Orleans music. Chapters - 1:00 - how did stanton bring his existing skillset online 7:14 - on bringing our own strengths to the table 15:15 - how does stanton portion his time 20:45 - why I like scripting 29:01 - is New Orleans music in clave? 39:00 - stanton critiques my performance of pie eyed manc 45:00 - great drummers and the challenge of divided attention
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Dana Hawkins - Why Creativity is So Hard to Cultivate
10/10/2023
Dana Hawkins - Why Creativity is So Hard to Cultivate
Anyone who came up listening to drum youtube in the 20-teens is familiar with Dana Hawkins. His collabs with Evan Marien started appearing in 2010. Every few months, there would be a new one, and it was pure drum-fusion crack. I actually met Dana in person before I discovered those videos, however. He was playing with two of my friends on a live gig on the Lower East Side. In any event, I had zero idea how this conversation would go, because I’ve never before spoke to Dana at length. I’m happy to say it went to territory I never anticipated. Dana’s takes on things like the word “jazz”, the music industry, and “kids these days” are deep, surprising, funny, and at-time firey. I’m going to have Dana’s thoughts and this conversation on the brain for some time to come, and I hope you do too. Chapters 0:00 - intro 2:00 - how did he get so good at learning songs by ear? 4:51 - Dana's split between reading and memorization 9:30 - Dana's early teachers (sorry, I could not find links to them;) 11:42 - When did Dana start studying jazz 15:19 - why Dana doesn't like the word "jazz" 25:11 - has social media been a pro or a con 31:04 - but aren't Dana and Evan an example it's not all bad? 37:03 - have we lost something now that there's no more "dues paying" in music? 43:09 - the paradox of needing artistic space but some people needing "hard knocks"
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Steve Lyman - Inventing a New Drum Language
10/02/2023
Steve Lyman - Inventing a New Drum Language
Chapters 1:14 - was Steve conscious he was creating something unique with the vector system 11:15 - resisting the pressure to conform 15:30 - should someone learn the basics before learning vectors 19:30 - the map paradigm 21:30 - what's Steve's coaching like from the student POV 30:55 - after a lot of throat-clearing, kids these days? 36:30 - biggest pros and cons of our current, hyper-online culture == I’ve followed Steve Lyman’s journey for at least a decade. He was a promising young jazz drummer, playing with people like Nir Felder, and appearing several times on Drumeo to talk about jazz drumming. After a stint teaching college in Utah, Steve is back in New York, and if you haven’t checked him out in a few years, it’s…different. From a promising jazz drummer, Steve’s developed into one of those rare players who also completely changes the idiom. He calls his new language The Vector System, and if you’re familiar with Ari Hoenig, Dan Weiss, Mark Guiliana, and Marcus Gilmore (all of whom Steve says are huge influences), you’ll recognize elements. But The Vector System is its own new language. I wanted to speak to Steve about the process of developing your own language, and the courage it takes to be radically individual - as indeed many of the guests on this pod are. In the process we touch on creativity and inspiration writ-large, teaching, learning and more. I really enjoyed this conversation with Steve, and hope you do.
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