CapYear Cast - Dr. Deborah Gutman

Welcome to the inaugural episode of the CapYear Cast! Joining us for our first interview is Dr. Deborah Gutman. Dr. Gutman is an emergency physician at Boston's Brigham & Women's Hospital, the face behind AdmissionsRX.com, and a clinical assistant professor at Brown University. If that weren't enough, she is also a strategic advisor and lead educator here at CapYear. Needless to say, Dr. Gutrman knows medicine and medical school admissions inside and out, and in this conversation, she gets into the things graduates and future graduates should be doing now to get a jump on their applications. Anyone considering a career in medicine will find some good takeaways here.

Thanks for listening & subscribe for updates!

Graduates (& soon to be graduates) - Get clinical experience and a paycheck! Create your FREE profile on https://capyear.co/ to find employers looking to hire pre-health graduates and current students. Plus you can find a growing number of clinical research positions. 

Applying to Medical or PA school? CapYear offers application support and career advice from physicians, PAs, and nurses to launch your career and make your application for MD/PA school stand out from the crowd.

Providers - CapYear saves time and money by proactively sourcing applicants for your positions from a pool of diverse, college-educated talent looking for clinical positions to launch their careers. The future PAs, nurses, and physicians of America can fill many entry-level clinical positions, support your team and help deliver a great patient experience. Visit our job board, post a job, and let our team get to work for you today!  https://jobs.capyear.co/

For more information on gap year placement, medical assistant hiring, or MD/PA school application support, please email us at [email protected]

https://capyear.co/

https://jobs.capyear.co/

Transcript below:

John: Hi, this is John Walkup, and welcome to the inaugural CapYear Cast. Today's episode features Dr. Deborah Gutman. She's the face behind AdmissionsRX.com, which is a website that helps you with your medical school applications, and she's also a founding member here of the CapYear team. So Dr. Gutman, welcome to the inaugural episode of CapYear Cast.

Dr. Gutman: Thank you. I'm very excited to talk about med school admission.

John: Well, great. So it's, it's very apropos today because I understand it's submission day today. So today is May 31st. We're recording this a little bit in advance, but I also understand that the medical school application process is nonstop. So even though it's submission day, if you're not submitting, what are the things you should be looking out for?

Dr. Gutman: Yeah, so for many it's submission day. So for starters, there are multiple application services. So there's actually multiple dates of submission day. Today is the main one, which is AMCAS, which is applying for allopathic medical schools. The osteopathic medical schools have a separate application service, which has already been in process, so submission was earlier in the month. And then Texas has its own application service as well. So all the Texas medical schools use a completely separate application process. And that started earlier in the month as well. And then there's some overlap. So there are students who are still waiting to hear back from the last cycle.

And so it is a bit of a continuous process in terms of thinking about how to prepare. Generally the preparation comes way before submission day, right? So it needs to be happening during your undergraduate years when you’re thinking about this day, several years ahead of time in terms of getting your ducks in a row in terms of planning your activities and getting the experiences that you need, and then in terms of planning your application, generally that should be happening several months ahead of time as well.

John: Interesting. So when is it too early to start, or is it never too early to start this process?

Dr. Gutman: It's kind of never too early. In an ideal world, students would be keeping a journal from day one. Really the med school application process requires a degree of reflection that we're not really used to doing for maybe a job application or even a school application.

So they're really having you reflect on the competencies that you've developed. And the best way to do that is often through storytelling or examples of some of the experiences you've had over the undergraduate years. And so, That can be pretty challenging to remember four years later. So, you know, honestly, from day one, probably the best thing a student can do is keep some sort of journal based on the experiences they're doing, research, the service, the leadership, their clinical experiences, and that way they can really when it comes time to do the writing and think about how they're going to present themselves on an application really. Stuff they can look at to see their growth over the last four years.

John: That's interesting because you talk about the self-discovery process, and I understand that from the, from the standpoint of an application because, you know, if I think about a general application, right, it's fill in the blank, make sure it's got some postage on it, get it in the mail.

But there's another part to that, which is sort of presenting the, the sort of fullness of yourself to the applications committee. And I can see that from the application perspective, but I’m wondering about it from the applicant's perspective. What sort of self-discovery does one need to go through to sort of understand if this process is actually for you?

Dr. Gutman: So I mean, there's a couple of things. One, think about the last time you went and saw a doctor and what you expect your doctor to be like, right? Those. Benchmarks are pretty high, right? So, you know, it is one of the few careers where your communication skills need to be on par, and your scientific competencies need to be on par.

The AMC, which is the overseeing body for medical education, does have a set of core competencies that they list that can be found easily on Google of what they expect an entering medical. Student to look like in terms of their life competencies. And you know, not surprisingly, we, many of those are professional competencies.

Some many are communication competencies, and then the rest are scientific and sort of educational competencies. So it is a big ask, but, you know, doctoring is a big job where you really do need to have all of those things in place. And so the first reflection before someone even thinks about applying is it, am I ready to apply?

Have I really done the work to develop those competencies? You know, have I been involved in altruistic things and service to others? Have I gotten the clinical experience that allows me to understand what a physician looks like and what they do? Have I done the research and sort of done pretty solid scientific inquiry so that I can understand the data that I need to make decisions for patients?

So you know, that self-assessment really should be done before you even decide if you're going to apply.

John: Is, is that something that schools can help with? Are there processes in place at the undergraduate level to help with that, or is that something that really falls on an applicant's shoulders?

Dr. Gutman: I mean, a little bit of both, right? So if you're at a school that has a fairly strong pre-health advising program, they absolutely should be the ones helping you work through that. And honestly, from day one, the premed curriculum, even just the course requirements to apply to med school, are fairly rigorous and if you don't start them early, it's very hard to complete them in four years.

So there's a solid year of biology with lab, a year of chemistry with lab, a year of organic chemistry with lab, a year of physics with lab, biochemistry, sociology, psychology, to really lay out that coursework. There usually is some sort of advisor meant to help you do that, and that same advisor should be guiding you in terms of getting those experiences you need as well.

So in a school with strong prehealth advising, yes, that should be available. Where there is no pre-health advising, there actually are national organizations that provide free advising. The NAHP does provide advisors from other schools to students who may not have access to advising at their own school, but it's very hard to catch up later in the game.

There are students who do it, and that's why gap years are becoming more common. It's sort of hard to get that all done in four years. So you also want to be doing well academically. The average entering GPA for a med student is about 3.76 right now. And so you're doing that rigorous scientific coursework, keeping yourself mostly in that A and B range, and then also theoretically doing research, community service, and clinical experience.

It can be pretty challenging and it's sort of leaned towards people taking additional time off after school.

John: Very interesting. I'd like to pivot a little bit because I think you brought up something very interesting, which is the concept of a gap year. And the applicant pool is highly competitive, right? Average 3.76 GPA out of 60,000 applications submitted? 22,000 were accepted. So it's not the easiest thing in the world. And so, the gap year can really be used almost to set your application apart. But I'm wondering: is it something that you should pursue? And I suppose the answer's not generic for everyone, but should it be on the scientific path?

Should it be just work experience in general? Should you be trying to get patient experience? I know there's not one route for everybody, but what are some key things that applicant should look for?

Dr. Gutman: So obviously it will be individual. Cause some of that will be doing that self-assessment. Sitting down, you know, when you're about to graduate and thinking, what have I not been able to work on, right? Like, what have I not experienced that I need to experience in order to put myself in the best position to apply? That tends to fall in either clinical experience just because, well, one, with the pandemic recently, that became much more challenging for students to get into the clinical environment or research.

And that's more just to do with your school's infrastructure and whether there were opportunities to do the kind of research you want to do. Then honestly, a big bucket where people. Clinical research, because that actually gets you a little bit of both. So that's usually research that's patient facing.

And so you'll be interacting with patients in a research capacity, but you'll be in a clinical setting and also, you know, participating in rigorous research. So that's a common opportunity people take advantage of during their gap year. For some students, they got all the experience they needed and they just want to explore an area of passion or interest. So they'll do Teach for America, they'll do Fulbright scholarships, they'll do you know, international travel. So it doesn't even necessarily have to be medically related. Sometimes it's just a growth year, just like the increasing gap years between high school and college. It's just an extra year to gain some maturity and maybe make a definitive decision about whether medicine is something you want to pursue because it is a long pathway.

John: I mean, it is a long pathway, and that's a great question: does it hurt your application to do non-medical things? And I guess the question becomes sort of, is there ever a point in this application when too much, too much scientific, too much, you know, a hardcore medical background is, is going to actually hurt your application. Do medical schools like to see some sort of well-rounded applicant?

Dr. Gutman: It's sort of an interesting question because I talk to my students about this all the time. They, unfortunately, want a little bit of both, right? So they want someone who's well-rounded, so they want you to have all those competencies, right? They want you to have all the traits and experiences we would expect of our future physicians.

But they also like students who are angular, right? Who have a particular niche area of interest so that, you know, a lot of deans will phrase it as “medicine and” How are you going to be a future change agent? What cause are you going to take on that you're going to move forward? And as there are more and more types of healthcare providers in medicine, you know, The question is what's going to distinguish the physician, right?

So, you know, what role is that physician going to take on the healthcare team? And generally that is going to be in a leadership capacity or a research capacity or something that sort of moves benison forward because that's where we have that additional kind of years of training or expertise. And so med schools really have focused on that.

So are you going to be someone who gets very involved and health systems change? Are you going to be someone who really works on maternal care in this country. Or is there a particular patient group that interests you? Or are you going to be an innovator and develop the next technology for surgery? Are you going to be the next da Vinci inventor? Right?

So they're, look, they are looking for that “medicine and.” Of course we still need clinicians. We just still need people to do primary care. We very much need people for primary care. That's also something that would make someone stand out, someone who really is just interested in straight-up patient care, preventive health.

So but yeah, they want well-rounded. They want you to be able to do the work of a physician, but they also want students who are going to be future change agents.

John: So if you're doing it's safe to say, I suppose if you're going to do a gap year, make it a productive gap year. Backpacking around Europe is, is fantastic, but it's probably better to do something either in a patient related setting or work in a scientific setting. And if not, do something with, with purpose, whether that's, as you said, Teach for America or something in a leadership position where you're actually a force for change versus sort of just taking it easy for a year.

Dr. Gutman: And interestingly, CapYear. You know, that idea of capstone is sort of what you want to be doing with the gap year. The idea of a capstone project is taking several interests and trying to merge them into one activity. How can I take something I've already learned a little bit about and take it one step forward, whether it's in a leadership role, whether it's in a full immersion or exploring an burgeoning area of interest, like global health. If you didn't get to do that when you were an undergraduate, maybe it's a good year to travel to another country and see what medicine's like in a different health system. So kind of that sort of more capstone experience, that's very hard to do when you're also doing your classwork.

John: So let me try to bring it back to the application. You've summed all this up, and it's really phenomenal. At the end, you have this application you submitted, they have all these interviews. There's an interview process, whether it's online… Wait, I don't know, do they still do in-person interviews? I'm not sure if that's a thing again.

Dr. Gutman: Sort of slowly shifting back, but it's because you're probably going to be a hybrid.

John: So you're, you're face-to-face with the applicant evaluators, and the question comes up about what you've done in your gap year and you're kind of talking about yourself and some of your activities.

And maybe it's not your gap year, maybe it's just you're talking about yourself. How braggy, for lack of a better word, should one be.

Dr. Gutman: Well seeing as the majority of perfectionists applying to med school tend to have imposter syndrome. I, I lean towards bragging. I mean, I don't like the word brag, but I think people do tend to underestimate their accomplishments.

And so I'd say there's a balance between really being clear that you've accomplished something and, you know, bragging is that tip over of like, you think you're the best at something, right? That's a different story. But I do think you should not be shy away. Talking about things you've accomplished. And I would think in my experience with applicants, they lean towards the non-bragging side where they think a lot of the things they've done are inconsequential when they really are consequential in terms of, you know, either the competencies they've developed or leadership skills they've acquired.

So if I had to lean one way, it would be, to go for it. Brag.

John: Well, it circles back to what you're talking about earlier, the self-discovery process. So if you're keeping a journal while you're, while you're working or you're out and about, list these things that you've done and keep a running tally, of what's been good, how you've, how you've felt during this process.

Because I think it all will come back to sort of support your view on what you've learned.

Dr. Gutman: Yeah. And I think, you know, as most adults, like, you know, we forget some of the things we've accomplished. You know, this is why we go back. We look through yearbooks, we look through, you know, and this is what I encourage students to do.

We're, we're pretty good at forgetting things we've accomplished or the learning process, right? It's like, once you know how to ride a bike, you forget about what it was like to learn and ride a bike. But in your application, you really do want to talk about that process of learning to ride the bike because that part, the learning part, is a transferrable skill, right?

And med school is going to be all brand new. And what they're really trying to figure out is how do you learn, how do you function in a team? How do you, you know, and so you did learn to do those things at some point. You just forgot because now you know how to do that. So, you know, I think some other function going back and thinking, how did I get here?

What were the things I did where I learned how to do this? How did I learn to talk to other people who were unlike myself? Just saying it isn't convincing to people, you have to give them the evidence, right? The data. I learned how to actively listen to people But you forget you learned it, so that's where the journaling and sitting down and really thinking about the stuff matters. I've had students say, “I have a publication. Should I put that on my application?” And I was like, you know, how many undergraduate students do you think have published literature in big scientific journals? Not that many, but I think they just take it for granted.  So yes, I think that reflection piece, that's where the work of the application is. It’s going back and remembering: how did I learn to do these things I'm saying I know how to do? And being able to present that to an admissions committee in a believable way.

John: Right. And I think for a lot of scientific types it's very easy to do data collection, especially when you're when you're dealing with data. But you have to sort of shift and do data collection sort of on, on the social side of things.

Dr. Gutman: That's correct. That is another analogy I use for students who get really stuck by scientists. I'll just say do research on yourself. It's like qualitative research. Go back and ask yourself the question: how did I learn to talk to people who aren't like me? Because you did at some point learn to do that.

But you have to be able to demonstrate. Explain to someone with those behavioral questions, they want an example of how you learn that. So, you know, do the research. Go back and think about how you learned how to do these things and be able to demonstrate that in written form on your application.

You know, when they're looking at 60,000 applications, you know some of the schools that get the higher number of applications get 18,000 applications. You. They do start to sound the same. And what makes someone stand out is the reflection, is that maturity that you can hear in the writing about the time they've taken to think about why things have been meaningful to them.

John: That's great. Fascinating stuff. We're running low on time, so I'm going to put you on the spot here for the last section. Here we are. It's, it's the beginning of summer. What are some things tomorrow's applicants should be doing today? How should they frame their summer vacation, if they even have a vacation? What are the things they should be doing in the next few months to prepare for the next application season?

Dr. Gutman: Well, so next year’s applicants, right? The ones who are in the pipeline watching their friends and colleagues apply in that school really should be sitting down to do that self-assessment now. Right? Thinking about, one, do I have the types of experiences that are expected for me to have like clinical experience?

So something like CapYear where you're actually working in a patient-facing role as a medical assistant or even as an EMT or as scribe. But am I in that clinical setting, understanding what a physician is, who they are on a healthcare team?     What are the different ways I could be a physician and what are those traits that I would need to have to be able to do that kind of work? That thinking can start a year ahead of time. And they really should be kind of putting that down in writing. Do I have the service experience? Have I shown altruism or desire to care for other people without getting anything in return? Am I involved in service to my community, and have I done research? And research is a big bucket. It doesn't have to be bench research. It can be, am I curious, do I ask questions? Do I look for data to answer those questions?

Do I present that data in some way to create change in the world? So that big question of research: have I done things in all of those categories? And then they should take a look at those competencies, the AMC competencies, and start thinking about like what are the ways I've demonstrated these things and the activities that I've done.

And that would go a long way towards having them ready to decide if they're ready to apply, and if not, what are the things I need to do to get myself there? And then in terms of the application, that would be a great starting point for me to help you write your application.

John: That's awesome. This is good stuff.  Dr. Deborah Gutman, thank you very much for joining us. This is Dr. Deborah Gutman. She's the founder of AdmissionsRX.com, helps you with your application to med school, and she's also a founding member here at CapYear. Dr. Gutman, thank you very much for your time, and we'll see you next time.

Dr. Gutman: You're welcome. I enjoyed it.