Larry Taylor: Tone at the Bottom

On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, our host, Brenda McCabe interviews Dr. Larry Taylor on Corporate Governance! Dr. Taylor is a seasoned independent corporate director, having served on 24+ corporate boards, including family-owned, publicly traded, private-equity owned, closely held privately-owned, advisory, and non-profit boards.  He has been recognized as a “Financial Expert” by the SEC while serving as board member and CFO of a publicly traded company.  He has extensive environmental, social and governance experiences from around the world. 

You can find him on linked in at https://www.linkedin.com/in/larry-taylor-phd-nacd-dc-b07a5822/

And find a copy of his book, "Tone at the Bottom" here 

 

 

transcript: 

00:14
Hello, this is Brenda McCabe. I'm CEO and founder of Next Act Advisors. At Next Act Advisors, my consulting firm, I have a very simple mission.

00:39
I want to assist entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs in building scalable, well-governed and very resilient businesses. You're joining a monthly podcast. I just recently launched this podcast, the Founders Sandbox. It's the newest channel. And what I'm trying to do is bring guests in corporate board directors, founders, business owners of small, medium and large public and private companies to create change.

01:08
for a better world. And through storytelling with my guests, we will discover topics around resilience, purpose-built businesses and sustainable growth in a fun environment, which is the sandbox. So we can equip one startup founder at a time to build a better world through great corporate governance and great practices. So today my guest is Gaurav Kumar.

01:38
I want to thank you for joining me. My pleasure. So you're not only, you know, I don't know whether to call you an entrepreneur, like, cause you've been at this for over 20 years. You, I mean, you're a business owner, right? So, um, his, on his business card, he says he's an entrepreneur. He is an author. He is an angel investor and an avid golfer and based here in Southern California.

02:06
I got to know him as the founder and the CEO of Beyond Codes. It's a global leader in sales and lead generation for IT services, product engineering and SaaS based product companies. It's in clients include the top 1000 companies in the world. A lot of those are in top fortune 500 companies and Beyond Codes delivers its services globally across all verticals and offerings.

02:36
And recently they are expanding their global footprint to beyond technology fields into legal healthcare and insurance. So I wanna again, welcome you. And did you know that I found you as a potential, you know, I knew you, I'll tell that story in a minute, but I found you as a potential guest while at a golf tournament. Did you know that I was kind of screening you at that time? No, not at that time.

03:05
But it's so nice to be with you and talking to you. Fantastic. So, you know, we actually our first encounter was I was retained by one of my customers at NextAct divisors to actually negotiate a master's service agreement with you as an owner of Bianco's. And I was struck by the passion and the deep know-how that you as the founder, you know, you're going on almost what almost 20 years of business.

03:34
on the KPIs associated to qualifying leads. While I tried to negotiate money back guarantee, Gaurav, remember, you wouldn't give that to me. But I was struck by that. And I thought that having you as a guest here on the Founder Sandbox, you could deliver some of those, those war stories and the pain point that you were addressing.

04:02
while you were creating Bianco. So we chose a title. Early on, we chatted and because I'm so passionate about resilience, I think the story that Gaurav is going to share with my listeners is around resilience and building beyond codes, a lot of gratitude and boy, is he metric driven.

04:27
Tell me the story that you told me while you didn't know that I was screening you to be a guest. Yeah. Let me tell you, by the way, before I start, you negotiated very well. Even though you are giving me the credit, I think it was you who got most of it and congratulations for that. We negotiated and we got a happy customer. And I think that is most important. So.

04:56
What do you want to know the story of Beyond Quotes or how that started? How you build it from scratch. And, you know, again, this was over 15 years ago. And, you know, what were you doing when you had the aha moment? Because cold calls, which is a great part of lead generation, are grueling. And so what did you do to fix that? So the story goes back 22 years.

05:24
I was in India doing a regular sales job, just finished my MBA. And after maybe one or two years, I got an opportunity to come to the US to attend a conference. There was some insurance conference. What I realized was my boss wanted me to just stand on the booth and call everybody to the booth, collect their business cards.

05:54
and as many as I can. And then that was my role. And I was given a target to collect a hundred business cards every day. It was a three-day conference. And first time to US, I was very enthusiastic. So instead of standing behind the table, I went ahead of the table and anybody who was passing by, I would shake hand, give my card, collect their card. And a lot of people were looking at me

06:23
from my own company and other booths, that this is not how it is done. But instead of 100 cards, I collected more than 200 cards on the first day. And when we went out for dinner, my boss was really happy, but he was also pulling my leg, that this is not how you do here. You have to give the space. And I thought the more card I will get, the more Brownie Pints. That was a starting point where I realized

06:54
Once you're in a job and you have done it for many years, you become complacent, you take it for granted and you expect the customer to come to your booth, give the card and then you will collect the card. And it was in subconscious mind. And when we went back from the conference, he expected me to call each of them and fix a time where my boss can go and talk to them. And I realized

07:22
You know, you got me from India to US first to collect cards and then to make an Excel sheet and then to make cold calls to them and set up time for you. But the lesson I learned here was that this is something that salespeople don't like to do. They don't like to go to conferences, collect cards, and then make them calls and fix appointments. And that was the first spark, the opportunity there for the next six years. I'm just trying to cut the story and move forward.

07:51
Once I got my green card and this is 2008, I'm talking now 14 years back, I wanted to do something on my own. And you know, when you're trying to do something in being an immigrant, you are a risk taker, but not crazy risk taker. So I said, let me see what I can do in sales. That's all I understand. And what are the pain areas of a salesman? And I went back six years and I realized.

08:18
They don't like to go to conferences, collect the card. They want to go to a conference, be a speaker or go to other booths. They don't like to make reports, MIS after the conference. They don't like to cold call and set up times for the call. And I said, you know what? We are going to do it for everybody. So that was a problem statement. Got it. That is how it started with one person. But I also thought maybe I can help

08:46
them even close the deal or bring the lead to the next level, whatever qualification. Again, long story short, in the first year, we have few customers and then I was the only one. Being a sales guy, I didn't know how to say no. So my workstation, which was my home office in Denver at that time, I had moved from New York. I had three, four laptops on the table. I love it. Each laptop had a mobile phone and those times we had BlackBerrys and all.

09:15
So I would keep that Blackberry or whatever phone on the laptop and then started making calls for each of them. And if there was a call back, so let's say I would say, hey, this is Kumar calling from company ABC. And I started talking about that company. And the very next call I would make for company B or I would get a call for company C. That's how we started. And in last 14 years, we started

09:44
building on this core competence. And we became disruptive and innovative and we knew how this will work. Things changed, technology came in the picture, AI and machine learning and data-driven, lot of softwares and platforms. And we adopted everything, everything. Today as a company, we make over 80,000 calls a day in Fortune 10,000 companies. Wow. We have mapped

10:13
Every single company, CIO and CFO and procurement and technology and marketing and so on and so forth, all offices, minus one and minus two, we exactly know their name, phone number, email, their titles, their roles in the company. We know who do they report to in a company and who reports to them. We know what time they come to office, what time they go.

10:41
We know what will make them a hero in their company. And that's how we started pitching. And that's the story. We didn't give up. And till date, we do the same thing, but now we are perfect at what we do. Wow. 80,000 calls a day. And you do this from three continents and over 300 employees. And with dedicated account management teams. Absolutely. Delivering on this. So, you know, thanks for sharing that and the journey. And

11:10
spark. So my listeners are founders, business owners like you, as well as corporate board directors. How would you describe the philosophy of your pricing at Beyond Codes? You know, there's a hyper competitive space of lead generation. I didn't see any pricing on your website. And we negotiate a sweet deal, but tell me what has informed you as a business owner on

11:39
philosophy of pricing and who influenced you perhaps in that? That's a very interesting question. I didn't know you will do that much of research for this podcast. See, there are two strategies in pricing. One is based on data and history and your customers and we call it ICP and you know, all those persona and who are you talking to? What is their business? And the other is demand and supply.

12:09
And when we were young, you were kids, my father was in a small manufacturing business unit and we would see him talking to his customers. And every time he would give a different price, you know, to the same product, sometimes 20 cents to the other guy, he would give 25 cents and third guy, he would give 18 cents. So and we have seen it throughout our childhood. So we asked, I asked him one time.

12:39
that it's the same product. How do you price it? Like to some people you say 20 and then 25 or 22 or 18. How does that work? And his, I can never forget his response. And he said, it depends. What is our situation at home? How much are our expenses? What is the gap? How much is pending? What do I need to do this month? I have to pay the fees, the bread on the table.

13:06
There are other expenses. So I look at my expenses. I know why my production capacity, how many units can we produce? And that's how I price. And then in those times in 1980s, the layer of what we call AI now, that time it was guts and demand and supply. So he said, I know that this customer wants these whatever we were making urgently. And I could

13:36
command 5%, 10% extra. And then on the other call, I knew that I can negotiate for a larger quantity of order if I reduce the price by five cents. I started learning from there that business is not about, you know, publishing your rate card and, you know, being stubborn on it or rigid on it. And this is what we are, you take it or leave it, my way, highway. We were not raised like that. We were raised like,

14:06
What is it that we need to run our house? What we can do? And I adopted bits and pieces, not exactly everything in our business. So today when we talk to our customers, I look at it, who are we talking to? What is their need? What is the quantity they want? What is the definition of a meeting for them? What is the lead for them? It may differ from customer to customer. And let me make a confession. Sometimes it's demand and supply and if you know they really need it.

14:35
jack over price by 10%. But sometimes you have to give discount of 20% when they are on the upper edge. So that's the funny part of pricing. When you've gotten to know your customer base very well, they repeat customers and very sticky with you. So again, back to your KPIs, you're very metric driven, which struck me from day one.

15:03
I know a lot of automation has been brought into beyond codes. So your cost of goods are largely your full-time equivalent hours spent to generate qualified leads. What else is behind your cogs? I mean, how do you, how have you built these KPIs and automation? Is that your secret sauce? Partially, yes. Okay. But most of it is very common sense. I have a sales background. So logically.

15:33
I've always worked with results. And it is good when I look back, my previous bosses, my professors in my college, or the way we were raised, nobody appreciated input. They always appreciated output. What's the result? What's the ROI? What's this? So I kept on telling, this is what I did. They kept on asking me, I don't care. Tell me what's the result. So

16:03
You know, in the first 15, 20 years of my life, 15 years of my work life, I have seen being a sales guy, we were always asked what is the return on investment? What is the final sale you have done? Have you met your quota? And what we would get in return was incentives and what is this increase in salary? So we would always live by the numbers. Every day I would come and write on my notepad. We didn't have Excel initially days.

16:33
What did I do today? How much sales? How, you know, what's it vis-a-vis my quota? How am I lacking? But when we started Beyond Codes and I started getting mentoring from my, you know, mentor, he also emphasized the role of, you know, input, the process. And he always, you know, taught me the journey is as important as the destination. The process is as important or more important as

17:02
the end result. But being a number guy, I was trying to do both because there's always a cost pressure, profit, revenue and all that. And we mixed both. So today we have over 85 APIs and metrics that we track on a daily basis. We do input, we do output. So let's say input, we track, how many customers do we need to get X number of meetings for a...

17:31
a specific customer, how many calls we have to make, how many, and these are all input driven if you see how many people will pick the call. If we make a hundred calls, you know, 95 will go on voice message. What is the conversion of people who pick the call and we are able to convert it to a meeting. How many meetings get rescheduled, canceled, no shows. What is the end result of meeting? You know, how many are there? Then we started measuring how many of these meetings actually convert into customers for

18:01
our customers, what's the revenue they are bringing? So there are so many things that we started tracking. What time other people start calling? What is the best time to call? What is the best day to call? What is the slowest time of the day to call? We have no break policy in the first two hours and last 90 minutes, no break. No smoke break, no coffee break, nothing, because the increase in the throughput, the connectivity is highest there. We have also mapped each city

18:30
New York, the maximum number of time people will pick the phone is between 730 to 815. LA will be 930 to 1035. West coast is a little late back, but they will stay back till late in the evening. So every city has a different behavior, different style. You know, people come at what time go. So there are so many things we started tracking and data that now, if you ask me, I can tell you the CIO of Best Buy will give you a meeting.

18:59
every third Thursday between 3.30 and 4.30 based on the trend. And if I call him at 3.35, he will pick the phone. His EL leaves at 3 o'clock, 3.30, and we know he stops taking the call after 4 o'clock. And we can go up to that level of accuracy now. So this all was a process. And yes, you're right. We do track a lot of KPIs. But the good thing is we track inbound, outbound.

19:29
output, both. So that's how we are a number guy. I hope you're keeping under lock and key those secret hours when to call the CEO. Of course. Yes, that part is a secret sauce. Exactly. So let's move into something kind of soft, but I do like to talk about gratitude.

19:59
they do have to show gratitude. And I want to learn from you, what do you, you know, you have employees that are doing each employee to, you know, grinding 250, 300 calls per day. Can you practice gratitude with these employees? And if so, how do you do that? So first of all, thank you for asking this question. Most of the companies, when they start growing bigger, I think it is inversely proportionate. They become less thankful.

20:28
The gratitude question goes down. We all came from a very humble background. Everybody's story is same as we discussed last time. We really believe in gratitude and thanking, not only our customers, our bankers, our partners, but most importantly, our colleagues. If you will ask, ever meet my team, they will tell you a couple of things. One is I never call them employees, never. I call them colleagues.

20:56
There is no word as employees in Beyond Code. To me it's very, you know, employer, employee. It's like a master and a slave kind of a thing in my mind. I do my job as a CEO, somebody's doing his job as HR, third person is making calls. All are equally important. We are the four tires of the same car and the car will not run. Even if I'm the steering, being a captain of the ship, the car will not run if there are no tires.

21:23
The car will not run if there are no brakes or gear or clutch or whatever. So we, first of all is we treat everybody equally. There is no hierarchy. There is for admin purpose and customer, but internally we all are equal. The other thing is, no, we do a lot of things where we thank our colleagues. We write cards to them. There is whenever anybody joins and they are able to fix the first meeting. It can be day one, week one, month one.

21:52
their manager sends a long email appreciating and recognizing their effort. And that's the only time, only time when their email is copied to me, to the entire management team, to the entire executive team, and we all then start sending them congratulation notes. Wow. At the annual party, we do thank all these colleagues. We call them on the stage.

22:18
And in fact, we stopped the practice of calling them on the stage. Now we go to their desk and we go to the tables where they eat or they're having fun in the annual parties. And we tell them that we want to come to you and we want to thank you. So there are greeting cards, their awards, their rewards, their recognitions. So there's a lot of things that started coming. We do annual, we do monthly, we do quarterly. It's not only incentive. We have seen to keep people motivated and happy.

22:47
It is appreciating and acknowledging their contribution in the company. So gratitude at all levels, whether it is our colleagues, we have no return loan policies. And I can tell you there are so many colleagues of us who come and they say, my father is not well or my child needs education and there are admission fees in India, education is not free, so I need some money there or my wife has to go to the hospital for delivery.

23:15
and there was some unexpected medical situation. We do give loans and we don't expect them back. If they give back, great. If they don't, there's no expectation. But Vrinda, let me tell you, there has not been a single instance in 14 years where people have not come back and returned the loan. Not even one instance. See, that is what builds our confidence, faith that good deeds don't go, you know.

23:46
unacknowledged. The same thing is with our customers. We do appreciate them not only on Thanksgiving and sending them wine and gifts and books and whatever. As a policy, whether it is me or our core team, we make it a point anywhere in the world, we will meet them in person once a year, come what may. And when we go there, we take them out for dinners, we spend time with them, we thank them.

24:16
I would say even 50% of my customers, I go to their house and meet their families. Even though they are a little bit hesitant initially, but little bit push. And once we are there with the family, we are part of the family. So gratitude and thanking, whether it is our colleagues or customers or bankers or our mailman, I think that is in our DNA. I think it's in your DNA. I just struck me right now when you started telling the story.

24:46
between 22 years ago. And then in your first conference or sales conference, three days having to give that get at least 100 cards and you stepped out in front of the booth rather than the behind, you do things a little bit unconventionately, which is amazing. So thank you for the sharing what you do with your employees and even customers around the topic of gratitude.

25:13
So you gifted me recently with one of your newest, I have it here, books. And it's just gotten published. It is Sales Lessons from Golf, 18 Insights for Sales Professionals from the Great Game of Golf. I got this only this weekend. So congratulations on the launch of this book.

25:40
Really enjoyed it. I haven't finished it yet, but you know, I got to actually chapter three, but it's that whole two, right? I normally in my own game of golf, I don't warm up until hole number three. Uh, it really, but so the, what I liked about, uh, chapter, um, three, it's a whole two is to set it up as a sales driving range and, um, I liked that. Practicing.

26:09
a start of a sales conversation many times, just practice, right? The day before, um, work with, you know, with colleagues or with your mirror in your bathroom, right? Um, but actually asking open-ended questions, um, that require a thoughtful response. Um, I really liked that because you made the analogy to practicing mastering our swing. How's your swing doing, Carol?

26:37
Okay, but still, we work too much. So, so what made you take on such a huge endeavor? I mean, this is not your first book, but perhaps at the it's really is insightful and brings it full circle to we all know.

27:03
You can sign a lot of deals out on the golf course, but you've made it really enjoyable and didactic. So how did you find time to do this? So a lot of people said that we are good at sales and they started appreciating what we were doing. And it was long due. I was like very surprised. What we do is common sense and everybody should do why everybody comes and walks up to us and say,

27:32
hey, you're doing a great job. Over a period of time, we realized, common sense is not so common. And what is simple for us, maybe not that simple or difficult for others. And I wanted to give it back before I leave this world, I wanted to share whatever I have learned in my experiences. So that was a thought process. I was not sure if I wanted to do a book and what the book will be. I thought I will record some...

28:00
we will have a YouTube channel or I will make some notes or I will do some conference speaking events. And when I was in Stanford, that one year or whatever time, we were playing once in Stanford golf course, one of the break time we had on a Saturday and I had few of my friends with me. And while we were playing,

28:29
I discussed what I want to do, that I want to give back. And that is when the first time the idea stuck, aha, why don't you write a book and we are golfing and every hole that you're playing, you are trying to compare it with what you do in your work. And we all are laughing, but what if we make it and into a more meaningful conversation, create it like a chapter, and then this book can go to masses. And what you are trying to do

28:58
You can only attend two, three, five, 10, 100 conferences and you can address thousand or 2000 or 10,000 people in the next 10 years. But the power of a book, and then if it ever gets into Audible or Kindles or other medium is limitless, immense. And it will leave a legacy for generations to come and read what you think about sales and what is your point of view on sales. And I was like, no, that's a big commitment plus

29:28
Golf is different from sales. And a lot of people used to think salespeople play golf or CEOs play golf because the deals are done in golf courses. But there was a lot more. And that's when the idea started. And I started working on it. And then with the help of a team, who I started talking, can you help me in writing? And then I would throw my ideas there. And then we made this book like 18 holes, 18 chapters, 18 lessons.

29:57
you know, how a sale is done, how to manage a sales pipeline, what is a sales funnel, how to close a deal. But the whole thing was connected with golf, whether it is the approach shots or it is the green or the tea, how golfers think about sales, what they can learn from salespeople and CEOs and vice versa. What sales reps can learn from golf as a game and golfers who are not salespeople.

30:25
And I thought that's a very, very strong connection between the two. Uh, you took, you shared an example of setting up a driving range, uh, how the muscle memory is built, how it is done. And whether you're a Tiger wood or a, or a rookie or an amateur or a pro, everybody goes to a driving range and practices because they can't afford to miss that shot during the game. And that's all you're trying to do. People who think or who are overconfident, they don't go to driving range. They just, you know, walk up to a.

30:55
golf course thinking that it will be okay. And which is fine. Many a times they're able to do it, but when the situation comes, they're not prepared. They don't know about the course, the muscle memory is gone, and they're stuck at a bunker or there's a draw or a curve or a slice, and then they feel frustrated. That's when I realized when a salesperson has done a lot of deals, they get overconfident. They don't go prepared.

31:23
They can walk into any meeting thinking, I've been doing this for donkey years. It's not that difficult. But once they're in front of a customer, these are new questions, new set of problems, new situation, which you had not done it in the past, and you are not prepared now for that. And then you're like, you know, you come out, you're frustrated, I wish. And when you go back and discuss with your team, and they tell you, oh yeah, that happened, but this is what we are doing as a company now. We don't commit this.

31:51
And then you feel, oh my God, I wish I had done that prep. So like these, we picked up 18 chapters. Every salesperson, like a golfer loves to, be flamboyant and show off on the tee or the putting. These two, they want to show how hard can they hit, how long can they hit or how smooth is their putt. But what they miss and they do not practice are the approach shots. And that is what we connected with sales.

32:21
And I have written in my previous book, don't expect a hunter to farm. Don't expect a farmer to hunt. Right. That's one of my chapter. And we realized a lot of salespeople are also flamboyant. They think, get me the meeting and I will close, you know, I will meet the customer. They're very confident. They're very good starters and openers and they have very nice lines and they connect with, with the sports and the food and the weather and, you know, common interest. And then there is other set of people.

32:50
who think they're very good finishers. Get me the deal to this level, I'm the best negotiator. I can close the deal, get me a qualified meeting and I'll close this deal. I can increase the ACV and all that stuff. But what most of the salespeople miss is something in the middle, the approach shots. In the sales funnel, there is L7 that is at the top, which is all the suspects and then L6 prospects and then lead.

33:19
qualified lead, RFPs, negotiation closure, this L7 to L0 journey, not many focus between L6 and L2 or L3. And that is the most important where you win or lose the confidence of a customer. And this is when you share client references and case studies and more collaterals and confidence building things and demos. So if you look at the book, this is what ever we learned in 22 years.

33:49
with hundreds and thousands of customers with over a million phone calls. I have tried to bring that to 18 chapters, whatever we could in a fun way of golfing. Otherwise it would have been just another sales book, and nobody else will read except sales. And the last chapter is very interesting. The 19th chapter is celebration. What we do in a golf course after this is the 19th hole. Whether you win or lose, everybody will have a beer.

34:19
And that's what we have connected with sales, whether you win a deal or not, you go enjoy, have a beer and learn what did you do in that sale, what was right or not right. Why did you win or why did you lose? And you talk about it. So those are the 18 chapters of sales and the 19 chapter celebration I've tried to come up with the book. And I'm fortunate that Stanford picked it, one of the very, very few books, they do 3% of the submissions that worldwide.

34:47
in the Stanford bookstore at Stanford online. We were there day one. We did some events and we were sold out. So, so far, so good journey. And I'm excited about this book now. I love it. And I love the 19th chapter on celebration. You know, I'm so glad that I called my podcast the Founder's Sandbox and not the bunker. We all hate being in a bunker, right? So.

35:15
For my listeners, how is it best to contact you? There will be show notes where you will have your website for Beyond Codes, author Gaurav Kumar, where your book is listed. How else can my listeners contact you? So multiple ways, I'm very accessible. They can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, pretty active, especially LinkedIn, in mails or comments. We have a team.

35:44
I'm not able to manage everything on my own, but we have a team that responds within 24 hours. I can also be reached on www. whether they want to buy a book or write to me or reach out or ask a question. I'm always there. My email is gorif.kumar at beyondcodes.com. They can reach out and we'll respond within one working day. Excellent. If not, we won't make our KPI.

36:13
Well, we, you're not going to get off too easy here. I'd like you to tell me, you know, I'm all about resilience, purposeful business and sustainable growth. Can you tell me what resilience means to you and your own words?

36:35
Ugh.

36:38
I think.

36:41
Practice and confidence is how I put it. There are so many times, and as you target, and your audience are the founders, so many times the stage will come where they want to quit, or they have self-doubt, or they think, maybe I have a better opportunity, and there's an opportunity cost of me doing this startup. And there will be ups and downs. I think that's the time when you have

37:10
to have confidence in yourself, confidence in the business and then continue from there. There will be times there. But having said that Brenda, I also want to emphasize on something I use very often called passionately dispassionate. If you have figured out that this was not the thing that you wanted to do, or this is not what you thought the market potential is.

37:40
and you have worked with your family and friends and well-wishers and mentors and coaches, and you all feel that, yes, I also am a very strong believer, pull the plug. Do not use your good money to support your bad decisions and bad money. And it's a dichotomy. On one side, I'm saying follow your passion, stick it, get the support, have trust in your abilities, have confidence. And no.

38:09
Tough times don't last, but tough people do. And I can go on and on, you know, the resilience and be there, you know. But in the same breath, I'm telling that if you have figured out that this was not right, whether timing or product or offering or decision, and you have shared this with your close people who you trust, then learn to unplug, learn to walk out your ego, your self-esteem.

38:38
what society will say, what family will think, what friends will say, should not matter. I had done that mistake and I've realized it. So I'm not just saying it because I read it quote somewhere. I was not doing good in one of the businesses there. And I took three months after I knew that this will not succeed. And in my 22 years of work life, that's one regret that I carry every day. It was investors' money. I knew this is not going to work out.

39:06
but it was more of ego and more of, you know, what people will think that I continue. So I think I put resilience with some, you know, basic IQ, sanity check, and then move on there. So that's what it means to me. Wow. What does purpose-driven enterprise mean to you? Everything is purpose-driven.

39:32
We all came empty handed, we all will go empty handed. And everything in between that we are doing is a purpose. There are different stages in life. Sometimes we justify the purpose is money making. I do not believe in acquiring customers if the business is not making money. When you see a lot of businesses initially would just, you know, acquire customers. But at some stage in life, it's giving back. And there has to be a purpose. And giving back, I think charity begins at home.

40:01
You don't want to cut your salaries and incentives and have an unhappy team in your own office or unhappy members in the family and friends while you're trying to show off that I support this orphanage and this food, you know, things there or supporting externally where there are unhappy people internally or you have cheated your customers or cheated your team members, colleagues, et cetera. I have always believed the first step, you know, is...

40:30
make life of everybody around you better. So one of the things we did in Stanford on the last day was, what was the purpose of coming to Stanford? They asked me. And it was a one hour very emotional session by Professor Dan Klein. And he's a world famous professor in drama and strategy and how he brings it together. And everybody was crying and was in tears after that one hour session because of the emotional journey he had taken us.

40:59
and the purpose of life. And then he asked 49 of us to stand in a circle and asked, what is it that one thing that you will take out of this room after this course? And we all were very emotionally drained and in tears. And I heard everybody saying, many people said, I want to spend more time with my family or I will take care of this orphanage or I will do this, that. And I was just thinking by the time that it's my turn, what will I talk?

41:29
And my first reaction was, I want to make more millionaires than more millions. By God's grace, we have done okay in life, good, but what happens to the team that works with us? Then that I made my mission. I will check if they all have comfortable life, if their kids are studying in good school, do they have money to send them to college? Do they have a good house to live in? Do they have a good car or whatever they need? Can they take care?

41:59
of their old parents or not. So to me, the purpose is, can I make impact? Can I better the life first of my own team members who work with us colleagues can extend it to family and friends. And then can I go out and pick any cause that is close to my heart. And I believe in, you know, girl education and healthcare. And I'm supporting a lot of organizations in, you know,

42:28
girl education, I have a girl, maybe I'm biased for that. And full-page care, these are two things. And I think purpose is very important. That is one thing that drives me every morning when I get up, that we need to make more money, we need to be more successful so that we are able to create more impact in more people's life. Wow. Thank you. That's, thank you for sharing, particularly that moment at Stanford.

42:59
your 48 other classmates. Wow. Yeah. Final, no, second to last question. What does sustainable growth mean to you? So.

43:13
I put growth in two or three different baskets. Sustainable growth first means continuous improvement. So during my first MBA, when I was in India in 1998, 2000, when I was doing my MBA, I was given an offer, would I like to do a second management course along with the main one? And we were already working like 12, 13, 14 hours a day, we were studying. And I enrolled for it, and that was Japanese art of management. And I did specialize in

43:43
did finish the course on Kaizen, which means continuous improvement. And there we used to learn Toyota production system, how is that different from Ford systems or other cars. But if you put that and put it in your life philosophy or your work philosophy, it means continuous improvement, whatever we are doing. So if we were making calls in last 14 years, that sustainable growth meant

44:12
Can we make our next call better than the previous one? Our next month better than the previous month and the quarter and the year. Can we satisfy our customer every year, every quarter better than what we were doing last? Can we add more value to them? Can we take care of our colleagues? Can we make their life better? So if you see, we were taking baby steps but continuously improving and continuously sustainable growth.

44:41
That is why we're a debt-free company. That's growth to me. You have never made losses in a year. That's growth to me. Our every year was better than the previous year. And we can argue and debate whether that growth was enough or not, but we have never done worse than our previous year. We have always had better, happy customers every year than previous year. And most importantly, can you believe that as a sales company who continuously

45:10
and customers, we didn't have a sales team for the longest time. 95% of the business came through references and recommendations of one person going and recommending us to the other company. And to me, that was growth that we were growing without making an effort. So to me, it is both things that we can measure, obviously, I'm a matrix guy, but things that we could not measure, but we could feel satisfaction of customers, happiness of our colleagues.

45:40
you know, can we improve in the process? So to me, these both are equally important in such a way. That's a wonderful example, a real example. You brought it all the way back to Beyond Codes. So thank you for that. And my last and final question, Gerov, did you have fun in the sandbox today? I love the name. I love the name, the Founders Sandbox.

46:08
And as you said, thank God it's not this founder's bunker. Bunker, can you imagine? So it's a, yeah, so thank you. And so did you, you had fun. We had fun and the way you peel the layers and whatever you prepare, you can never be prepared in your podcast or the way you ask questions. And I think that is your expertise, how you get things from inside in subconscious mind. I was

46:35
I knew basic what you're going to ask or basic idea on the podcast, but I'm surprised at myself what all stories and what experiences I was able to bring out at 100% that it goes to you, Brenda. Thank you for having me today. I thank you and I am happy to report this comes out monthly on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and come back for more stories around well-governed companies that are resilient.

47:05
and all about corporate purpose. Signing off, see you next month. Thank you. Thank you to your audience. Thank you.