Closed Captions for Season 3 | Episode #5: Aly Dearborn
"Fabulously Candice": The Sexiest Podcast About Neurodivergence
Release Date: 05/30/2023
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Hi! Everybody. Welcome to season. 3. Episode 5 of fabulously Candice, and before I introduce our fabulous guest today, I just have to say that I bought jelly shoes from melissa.com, and I had jelly shoes in 1986.
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I was 12, and I haven't had them since, and they smell so good.
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So for those of you autistic folks out there that, like sensory stimulation, I want to.
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Well, who doesn't? That's autistic. What am I saying?
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What's what I struggle with is, I just want to smell my shoes all the time.
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So Ally, after I introduce you, we're gonna probably have to talk about that because I'm wearing them today.
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And I just want to smell them. They smell so good.
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But I also want to say so, random, but for folks listening, this is just part of my brain, and really my Adhd brain.
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5 min before I'm supposed to get on today. I decided it was necessary to clean out my purse, so want to say that this rad this is the story of our life behind the scenes right?
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And lastly, lastly, Allie is Ali.
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Before I introduce you. People know, Ally, though I will say, because you've been on before, hey?
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I just got back on Instagram for a moment's day.
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It's a visual stim nightmare. I just want to say it's a visual stem nightmare, and why?
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Because I'm obsessed with it. So I've got to figure out how to navigate that.
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But I'm sure other people can relate to that struggle with visual stem, and especially on social media.
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Holy cow. With that being said, Welcome, Ellie Dearborn!
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Welcome back!
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Yay so happy to be with you again, Candace.
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Yes, I love this. We have become good friends, and so much has happened since you came on the first time.
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So let me just give you another shout out you've been licensed for nearly 15 years.
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You're an expert in treating women with complex trauma and various addictive behavior.
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You've been on a lifelong quest to better understand yourself and to discover your autism earlier, and you discovered your autism earlier this year.
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Yeah, last year. Now, yeah.
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We talked about that. And it actually, last year. But it actually has really catalyzed.
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All you're doing, I mean, I would say it's completely switched.
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Your practice and your focus in working with autistic women and really getting the word out.
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There 2 clinicians and medical providers, and other professionals.
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On what autism in females looks like, and how can we assess accurately, so that we can provide proper and appropriate treatments?
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So with that.
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Yes.
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Yes, and we got to do. I think the incredible work in starting that information flow within the ipac community, for sure.
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Yes, so we did. So. Itap is the the International Institute for trauma and addiction professionals.
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Itap, and I'm just going to read the title of our presentation.
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So ally, and I in April, at the end of April.
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Gosh! Time flies presented on love, addicted or seeking safety, accurately assessing and treating autistic females with symptoms of trauma, sex and love addiction in both inpatient and outpatient settings and it was a huge success.
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Do you?
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It was. Yes, I've had so much anxiety going into it because it had been a while since I had done any sort of formal professional presentation.
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But as soon as we started going, Candace, it was like just fine, you know, like it just deeply believe in the information and the importance of it, and was really touched by the cues of safety that, I know.
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Ed in the room, just people smiling and nodding along.
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And, you know, being just the felt tone in the room to me, felt this very.
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Hmm!
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Honoring and like. There was genuine curiosity, and I just find that so meaningful.
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Well, and I I love that. You just said that for folks that are listing, because here we are professionals again, we have learned to mask for so many decades, both of us autistic coming out in our you know.
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I mean they they knew like a the audience members knew, but we had Deborah Kaplan, who's a big name in our field, you know.
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Yes.
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She's all about financial infidelity. And then we had Jenna Romerzma, who's a dear friend who wrote altogether you, and is the editor of altogether us, which I've been blessed to be an author in one of the chapters in we had
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Marty free. Marnie Free is a big name in our field, who?
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What kind of really took the lead for autistic or not autistic.
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Excuse me, females who came out as love and sex addicted decades ago, right?
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Yeah.
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So, among other amazing, we had other autistic individuals, both females, males in the room.
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It was just so beautiful to have so much support. And really, people from all over.
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So I feel like that. Just felt very honoring to me to see the familiar faces.
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And I loved how you said that in terms of cues of safety, because both of us were really anxious.
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I mean. I sang on the mic before.
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Did a little bit of karaoke, because that's also part of who we are.
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Just really fine and spontaneous, but I really loved how you and I were able to dispel a lot of myths about autistic females.
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So I really want us to start there, Ally, let's just dispel some miss.
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Maybe we talk about how we've done this before, but I do think it's worthwhile so many of us are misdiagnosed as borderline.
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I know I was. You were given that diagnosis.
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I get that there are similarities. But, my God! So let's start there with, what is that about Ally?
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Why are so many clinicians, instead of taking time to look at a neurological difference?
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I'm so grateful to have witnessed that performance.
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Does that go in for the borderline diagnosis?
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Oh, goodness, yeah! Such a.
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There's so much work to be done here, and I think just.
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With what, we were able to accomplish in our kind of presentation.
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Yes.
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Talk. I mean. This to me was one of the primary things that I people to come away with.
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You know which is that because of the lack of understanding about female autism and it's kind of presentation or you know, it's observability by others.
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You know, and because I think there's a lot that's assumed about what it means to be autistic, like, maybe that you're like, you know, anti relational like that, you know, kind of like, you're a solitary figure, you love being alone.
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And so it's like, there's less consideration around, kind of how the challenges within relationships can emerge.
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Yeah.
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You know. So it's like, so I think there's a multitude of factors.
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But one being that you know the development, maintain a maintenance.
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You know, kind of the whole experience of relationships, having differences in the experiences of relationships is part of the diagnostic criteria for being autistic, but because the relationships maybe are colored like in my own past experience.
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And we've touched on this together, you know, with like a lot of confusion.
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Umhm.
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And then with the rejection, sensitive dysphoria that Adhds or autistics also experience, which is essentially from the nervous system, standpoint like a you know, a very quick collapse.
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You know where you ride through all layers of your poly, vague ladder.
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Yeah.
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According to you know, Deb, data is work, and you end up in, you know, dorsal, like total despair, which can be triggering for self harming behaviors such as you know.
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Yes. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I use hit myself, I would have suicide attempts, you know, multiple especially through my adolescence, and you know, or in sort of the face of some massive relational disruption.
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And because the attachment in the primary relationships, I think it's often like our whole can become like almost like the you know, it's like the whole ground beneath us is anchored in sort of our primary support.
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Person at times, and when that relationship is disrupted, the significance of the round beneath you being completely earthquake, you know, is a really debastating life experience that was precipit, you know, like those experiences precipitated.
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Yes.
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My final you know, quote unquote mental health crisis as a 38 year old woman in my early, you know, when I started this recovery mission, and that is something that's also very common.
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But because we have so little understanding about autistic people and autistic females.
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Specifically, I think, when clinicians see challenging chaotic relationships and then self harming attempts, it just bling blings to they must be borderline while missing.
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Yes.
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There are so many other kind of components here to assess, and there are ways to really look for and explore for kind of what.
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What's the nature you know of, you know. Change in transitions.
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What causes the conflict right like? Did someone not do what they said?
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They were gonna do right like, you know where you know what?
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Right.
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Even what's the source of the anger, and is that you know, the emotional dysregulation that is part and parcel.
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Yes, yes.
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Neuro. Different experience, you know, is considered to be borderline type behavior.
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But I'm really curious, honestly, from a research perspective like, is it possible that everything we've ever known about borderline personality?
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Which is a historical and pathologizing primary diagnosis for females like akin to the hysteria.
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Oh!
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Yeah.
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You know, earlier versions of the Dsm. But is it really autistic women and people that have missed looking for some of the other criteria, like with negative behaviors or the sensory sensitivity, right the thinking patterns?
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Huh!
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Anyway, that's some initial thoughts.
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Oh, my gosh! Well! And you just explained it so eloquently and articulately, and you just nailed it because the reality is that we do want to be in relationship, and for so many autistic females we get in these relationships.
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And we're we are very vulnerable. The autism diagnosis creates vulnerability.
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And so we're very trusting, too, trusting, right?
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We often are, we fall victim, and pray to gaslighting and narcissistic abuse, not just in our intimate relationships, Ali, but my gosh!
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In our peer relationships as adult women, including when we are younger.
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Right. So it's like. But clinicians are right.
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They look at the emotional dysregulation they look at.
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If they're substant, abuse the it.
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Oh yes!
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The intensity of relationships. They look at self harming behavior and suicidal ideation which you and I know you just said it to is literally a natural response to rejection, sensitivity.
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It doesn't mean we're going to do harm.
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Necessarily, we you know, add it literally. If if you ask enough questions you're gonna find out.
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Yes.
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Oh, that's rejection, sensitivity! But those alone cause clinicians to go borderline, and the sad reality.
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The reason why I wanted to start here is because borderline is so stigmatized.
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It's like, your borderline. It's almost like when autism men are missed out as narcissist. You're a narcissist right?
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There's so much stigma that comes with those 2 diagnosis.
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Yeah, there's no treatment for you. There's no help for you.
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Hmm!
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You're the problem right? Instead of this compassionate inquiry, I guess, as I use theaporable taste, language.
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But instead of being compassionate, and taking the time to inquire about what's going on, which leads me to our assessment.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm so proud of this piece of work.
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Yes.
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And really just sentence, you know, kind of trying to synthesize some of the.
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What the research that has been conducted shows on the female expression of autism.
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You know, and centering those kind of characteristics and traits, and the commonalities that show up through lived experience.
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Research and more autistic researcher focused research. You know.
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And then with that comes the whole development of really challenging the entire medical model view of autism.
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As a quote, unquote disorder, and looking through a neural affirmative lens which use autism as a neurotype, not as a disorder.
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And thereby changes the languaging of how we're assessing for autism by presenting it as autistic ways of being as opposed to symptoms of a disorder.
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Yeah, I love that.
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So what I'm loving about.
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Of course you know the the myriad of edits that this document has, and since we shared it at Itap.
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But the more more we kind of work on it, the more excited they get, because they think it's also a teaching tool for clinicians.
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Yes.
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You know, or for autistic people themselves. Right like that, you know, there's it's a teaching about how all of the best practice recommendations.
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Yup. For us. You know nothing without us. You know nothing about it.
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Yes, about us. Without us. Yeah.
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Yes, right? Exactly like that includes autistic voices. And for me, as you know, feminist as a female like this, it is like working with women, is my area.
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Yeah.
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Of interest. You know I have a that's a narrow niche, perhaps, but also why?
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Because there's a lot of women out there, you know.
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But the way that the teaching of how we present what it means to be autistic to people.
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Yes.
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To me becomes an access point. For really fostering and embracing that positive identity that can come with the quote unquote diagnosis.
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But maybe it's really just coming to a better understanding that there are other people who think experience, you know, process the world like me, you know, feel similar things to me, you know, it's like there's spaces where I am understood.
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Yes.
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And I think just terms of kind of the trauma of being undiagnosed, autistic, through a lifetime, for those of us that are late in life.
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When we do get the diagnosis, it's.
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You know it's.
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You know there is a thing called double, but there's a double empathy problem when it gets milted.
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Yes.
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Studied this, and like 12 or something that double empathy research where you know the you know, it's that there's a mute you. There's a dual, and there's a dual challenge and understanding.
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One another when you're looking at an autistic framework which might be honesty.
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Yeah.
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You know deep how you kind heart, you know, like compassion direct, you know, zooms the best right like thoughtful, you know, and then maybe a neurotypical person who just has a different way of being and different norms and ways.
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Yeah.
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They approach things, and you know, from the medical model, autistic people have been taught how to adapt to what they kind of more neurotypical expectations are for how you communicate what you're supposed to be interested in how you're supposed to body, how you're supposed to experience world which
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Yeah.
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means like, stay still and use your rather than feel touch things you know.
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Yeah.
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Getting well. Yes, exactly. So. There's some thoughts that are rolling out.
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Well, I love it, and you know what we did, which I think is so beautiful is we started out by looking at the assessments that were out there right?
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And so, if you can, you just share kind of what you noticed right in looking at the assessments that were out there, and the difference or the discrepancies, for instance, between what what's out there and then what we've created?
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Hmm, yeah. Well, maybe a kind of a felt sense exercise and I don't have the fullest in front of me, and I often need visual cues or things that I or you can look at.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
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It's it grounds me. It's like a ground strategy.
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But they're, you know, if we look at sort of the symptoms set as written in the Dsm.
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5, and you know, kind of just having a felt sense of the words, persistent deficits in abnormal social approach, right failure to.
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Yup difficulty.
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Yeah.
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That's a lot right. Difficulty with, like, you know, total of version of like rigid, you know, is this, didn't you know normal?
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Yeah.
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You know, it's like, so it's just a you know.
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We are describing people.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like what you know, like against what you know. Like kind of you know how normal is our normal.
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Really people, you know, it's like what is going on here, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And so I think, with the neurural affirmative languaging. What you know primarily what we're doing is saying, you know, instead of deficits in the wording is different in and instead of like, you know.
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What is it called like? Not peculiar? There's another p word like the, you know, like rigid.
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Like like pre-up preoccupation.
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Yeah. Yes. Like, yeah, it's like, it becomes like preferences for right as opposed to like that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah. Rigid, you know. Yeah, did. I mean, I can't even I don't even wanna talk about how it's language.
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Oh, yeah.
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Honestly. Well, it's like no, so I think what I love about how we continue to work with an adapt the tool, even since the end of April.
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Is complete removal of the Dsm. 5. Criteria relanguing all of it.
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So that it really?
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You know, for instance, differences in social communication and interaction.
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I. So it's like differentnces in social communication and interaction across all 3 of the A domains of which there's kind of the experience relationships, experience of non-spoken communication and experiences with communication.
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And then for B, it's preferences for calming or energizing or balancing movements or activities.
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Yes, yes.
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Tasks, special interests and or sensory experiences, and so we're looking at really normalizing the way that an autistic, you know, or kind of, you know, neuro different systems regulates itself is through use of movement use of options, right engaging in the sensory experience to you know, shift in
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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physical space and needing a lot of, you know, kind of the because of the openness of our systems.
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All the data. You know, we look for kind of, you know, routines, schedules, you know, things that are predictable, known to bring the sense of kind of calm.
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Yeah.
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And like, you know, like I kind of know where. If this, then this you know, and so I can kind of try to keep.
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Yes.
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Offensive regulation for myself, which is very different than calling me rigid right?
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For another person, so.
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Yes, yes! Oh, my gosh! I just love this!
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Conversation. I we I have the opportunity to educate a medical provider who assessed one of our autistic clients for Academy, assisted therapy because we've started Academy and assisted psychotherapy enormous day, and what I appreciate first about the medical provider is he stayed very
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Oh!
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open and curious to my response response to his micro aggressions against this autistic individual.
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There. He did not intend it to be a month aggression.
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I wanna say that. But intention doesn't equal impact and made a comment that I just thought, okay, so you know.
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Oh, you know he is, you know this rigidity, they said.
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So that's actually a part of him. If we talk about internal family systems and software is a part.
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This is what Meg and I wrote in our chapter a neuro inclusive approach to ifs, which is our hardware.
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What's going on with our brain is over here, and then the software iss here.
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And so this assumption that you know all autistic people are rigid, right?
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That deficit language. And so I just shared with him because he was talking about the suite individual who had just landed basically come out of the journey.
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And he had a protector part come forward, and so it wasn't that his autistic brain was being rigid.
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It was that he came back into embodiment, and as we know what can happen in the autonomic nervous system is, you know, sympathetic right?
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So there's that hardware. And then a part came forward to protect right.
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So I guess my point in saying that is that just how important it is that we get this education out there because there are so many well intended medical providers and clinicians who are going off the Dsm.
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Which people I will say this neurotype should not neurological differences should not be in a diagnostic manual where the focus is on disorder.
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It is not a disorder when I hear people say, this is a mental illness.
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When I hear people say, including providers. You know, autistic people can flip a switch and they're taking time bombing.
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Yeah.
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Okay, we're not psychopaths like, who are you talking about?
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It's so deficit based. So so getting back to our assessment, you and I were really inspired.
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By this awareness that we've got to change the language.
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And so we we just made a brave. We just took the brave job last week when we were in edits and said, Let's ditch the D's.
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Let's ditch the disorders let's ditch the Dsl language.
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Let's do it our way and get people in this mindset. That, hey?
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It's a difference in. So if you get a divenosis of autism through this assessment with us, we're looking at it as a difference which I'll be honest.
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When I did that I used our tool earlier this week with an autistic female, as I was doing.
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You know the screening, and I noticed my brain having to switch because I have almost 20 years of being trained on a model that is very disorder and deficit, based.
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And so I had to really look at it as, Hey, she's getting this.
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She fits all the criteria. Holy cow like check the box when I we went into detail of each section which we're going to get into here in a minute, she fit every single one, and I had to look at it as an even my language with her I said the Dsm is gonna
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call these deficits. We're looking at them as differences.
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So I, you know, kind of made that disclaimer up to get her brain also thinking of that.
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In terms of, you know a difference, because what what she and I were thinking well, who cares about?
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It's a difference in how we communicate. What's the issue?
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Yeah.
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But sadly, sadly, for a diagnosis of autism.
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You know, it's like there has to be this. It's a deficit, and there's a failure to. And it's, you know, it's this persistent deficiency in.
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And it's just this rigid like you said.
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It's all this language like you said, it's all this language.
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So I just want to point that out that for folks that are going to be having access to our assessment here in the very you got it really changed the way your brain has been thinking if you're a medical provider, or mental health, provider, because we're not using the language, that the
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Dsm. Has huge. We're just not gonna use it.
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We're ditching the Ds.
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Yes, yes, yeah. And there's some really beautiful guidance from.
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Yeah.
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And her team in the adult autism assessment handbook that I really think it's it's very considerate.
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Yeah.
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It's considerately written in the sense that, just like you're saying here, Candace, that you know, it's internalized ableism. Really, you know, kind of like the you know, since autism have been identified in the forties and studied.
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You know it's been, you know. It's been something that's extraordinary.
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You talk about stigma around borderline personality, you know, like there's like an extraordinary stigma around what it means to be autistic that you know, because the presentation and pop culture media has been so geared towards like really you know, not showing the wide spectrum in which autism
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Yes.
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Yes.
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can present. You know it's there is a very narrow slice lens on, you know, like your mathematical genius, you know, person, you know, and a male body person.
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And then you know what about the rest of us that don't you know, would never have identified, you know, and I think this is interesting.
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Even, just clinically speaking.
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You know I don't know how I would have responded to a clinician asking if I had thought about you know being on autistic as as opposed to how I you know you know, have I thought about being borderline personality?
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You know, it's like both things come with some degree of stigma, you know, and it's only been through the investigation of what autism actually means in more recent literature.
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Got it?
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That's coming out, you know, by autistic people. And it's like, Oh, I can totally relate to this.
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Yes, this is me, and it's like felt in a very different way than for instance, the borderline personality which felt like a being misunderstood.
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Another way in which I'm being misunderstood, whereas the autism diagnosis, even reading it in the Dsm.
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Which took a lot of 150 h of continuing Ed on like, how what does this mean?
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You know I'm like, oh, now I can identify with these things because there's other ways that this shows up.
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Yeah.
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And it's really so much more about kind of the inner experience than it is necessarily about what is going on on the outside and I think there's so much that I'm you know, the intersex here with my own other interests around.
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You know, like kind of how we're socialized. And then sort of ideas coming out of more of the trauma and addiction field of, you know, codependency and contrasting like that code of dependency model with kind of this idea of masking and you know what what you know I just think that
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this is where it's such a cool place in the field to really advance.
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Yes.
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You know what actually matters for autistic people and our well-being, you know, and they think for women specifically.
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And we presented on this in our talk, you know but one of the things that just really is.
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My, you know. Probably kind of if I had to nutshell a life passion, you know.
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It's like protection of women and girls and sexual violence.
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Being a very big, part of that kind of, you know, work and desire to correct, and the experiences of victimization that will occur can occur throughout someone's lifetime, you know, really means there's something else that we need to be doing to help awesome.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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You know safety and well being and like, if we you know, and they don't, you know.
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Yeah, like, so that just there's so much more we can do once we have identified kind of how autism can show up.
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You know, in female people, and what those specific needs are, and regarding kind of yeah, coming in.
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Yeah.
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And I think a lot of it is about healthy relationships, education and things that may be.
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I agree.
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Yeah. Oh!
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We're not modeling when in our family systems, particularly coming to a late date, you realize what your family was also somewhere neuro different on the neurode spectrum.
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And okay, where you know, it's like intergenerational. Looking back.
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Truly!
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But like that teacher about like what is, you know, and you know, from an inner affirm, like nervous system like, I think this is where my poly bagel theory stuff is.
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It's like what brings me ventral which might not.
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What be? What brings everybody else to ventral? I might find vegetable glass, garden, and use, find ventral, you know, like going to a party right like, you know.
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Yeah, with my jelly smelling my gelling shoes.
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Thank you. Yeah, yeah, like, right, it's like, I want, you know, it's like smelling the shoe instead of.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I don't want to wear them. I just want to smell them.
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They make me feel good. But you said some really important things, you know, in terms of.
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Right.
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So we do the assessment, and then we can't just stop there we can't just go into treatment that looks like the non autistic treatment approach.
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We've got to look at providing support for healthy.
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The word is relative, but relationships, especially if you come from a religious background where there's a lot of shame around sexuality and intimacy.
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And we've got a lot of young occupational people getting online. They're engaging with people sexually.
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They don't know what's going on. So it's like, there's got to be support in education around that.
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There's got to be support about pure victimization.
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Healthy boundaries, relational victimization there's got to be support around communication of needs.
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Wants desires. How do you feel, seen, known, heard, and understood?
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There's got to be a lot of support there, and so I love that our assessment is a beautiful starting point.
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And I also love that we created a long form which you and I can get through.
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But for some, if we're handing it over to an autistic person to check, it can be incredibly overwhelming.
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I get it. I've got the brain and so we're also creating a short form.
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We're in edits of that right now which I'm excited about.
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Yeah.
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And so do you feel comfortable, maybe just going through and just throwing out some of the sections for folks as a teaser. You know, where there will be more questions in each of these sections where you can kind of take a deeper dive that look into the world of autistic females.
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Yes, yeah. So kind of. So the way we have this laid out is.
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Kind of presentation of the neuroirmative model for autism assessment.
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And then breaking down each of the criteria. So for?
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How do we even move away for identification? Sort of it's kind of like a way of collaborative identification, I think, is how Devita Hartman and her team talk about the you know.
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Hmm!
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But where we're looking at exploring together as opposed to, you know, from a power perspective like I'm giving you a diagnosis right?
327
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Like, so just in terms of tone, there's sort of an element of, you know.
328
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Here are autistic ways of communicating and interacting with others.
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You know, like, for instance, worrying whether you're talking too much or not enough in social situations like, be wondering what's the right way to act we're making kind of significant efforts to observe or find out rules prior to engaging in kind of a new situation you know, ding
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Yeah.
331
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ding ding flag on this one, you know. Is it easier for them to talk at length about certain topics than others?
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You know, or lose track, perhaps of whether others are still listening, if sharing about an interest area.
333
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And you know it's like this, you know, or can you get bored or agitated?
334
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Yeah.
335
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If people are talking about things that are not of interest, you know it's like these are autistic ways of communicating like that's normal in autistic community.
336
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It's like we are with people, and I love that.
337
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Yeah, yeah.
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Our relationship is we have similar special interests, talk and talk and be like Uhhuh.
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Unload your wisdom, girl like? Yes, you know, but so that's a one.
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And then so a 2 is autistic experiences of non-spoken or non-verbal communication.
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And so here we might be assessing like, what's that?
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Felt experience with either giving or receiving icons. Because, again, it's not that you can't do it.
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Yup!
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It, you know. Thank you are trained to look at me when I'm talking to you, for you know, for many of us right.
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Hmm!
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So it's not so much do they give eye contact from a clinician observer.
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Lens do I notice my contact? It's more. Tell me what it feels like when you know some.
348
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You gotta look in someone's eyes is looking into yours.
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You know. Maybe it's like, Are there certain forms of communication that are easier than others?
350
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Which is certainly true for me. I'm with, you know, especially if it's something that might be conflictual or challenging, like.
351
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I would much rather write it than have to be confronted with saying things out loud, and I think with that there's also just more that I've learned around, maybe having some more respect for the reality of selective like mutism.
352
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Hmm!
353
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Yeah, yeah.
354
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Yeah.
355
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And where there are circumstances in which it hasn't been possible for me to speak, you know, even if I prepared for it, even if I scripted it out at the moment, comes and passes, and I cannot do it.
356
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Yeah.
357
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Yes.
358
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And now that I know that's like because my autistic preferences for communication, and we're easier at harder for me and sometimes than others as opposed to an element of my codependency, that means that I have how to have a voice yet or you know it's like
359
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Yeah.
360
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it's very different. Lens. It's like I can respect and honor.
361
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Yeah.
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This is hard for me, and what do I need to do to support myself and either nervous system, wise getting regulated to a place where I can have enough cues of safety to have a nervous system that cooperates and allows me to come or are there other modes in which I
363
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can share this information. So yeah, like, there's sort of nuances and kind of preferences around how we communicate.
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And then the a 3 is the autistic experiences of developing mainten and understanding friendships and relationships.
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I think this is, you know, really, where there can be incredible work done from like on a clinical level, just with friendship, timelines, and the nature of that exploration here.
366
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Hmm!
367
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But what you might be exploring with a client is really, you know, stories about being bullied, excluded like since childhood may be always feeling different, you know, kind of like I don't belong, you know, for me.
368
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Yeah.
369
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Yeah.
370
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I always felt like an alien, had a big special interest in Ets and Ufos for a very long time, like, you know.
371
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Yeah, yeah.
372
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Yeah.
373
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Pick me up no, or like with friendship, kind of relationships like I have tended to either be older and have much younger friends, or even, you know, more likely now, in today's world, my friends are all in, their you know, sixties like I have a page.
374
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Yeah, same, yeah.
375
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Like I have much older friends, and you know, and I do.
376
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You know, it's kind of like there is an element where this shows up too.
377
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Yeah.
378
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It's like, you know, it's like, Oh, cause I you know I have like this, you know, reference for right like my elders, and like kind of then it can put me in this like position of you know, I think people might perceive.
379
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Oh, you're you know you're making yourself less than you know from a framework, you know.
380
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But it's like, No, I just really it's like, I think Candace is amazing.
381
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You know. And so it's like, you know, and she's, you know, hanging you, hey?
382
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And I look up to her right and like there's so there can be this sort of idea of like, yeah, that elevation and friendships.
383
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Yeah, yeah.
384
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And what that means. And yet, you know and like, let's not judge that from the outside.
385
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Yes, I was. Gonna say that right instead of like, oh, that's codependent, like I, one of the things Ali, as you're talking.
386
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And I'm aware of the time you and I could talk for hours.
387
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What are the things that I'm aware of, though, is just recently in my adult relationships with what?
388
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Who I thought were friends that didn't take the time to get to know me and my autism, who really started to, as I noticed just there was just some unhealthy dynamics where I was considered codependent and labeled in certain ways.
389
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And then, if I was overwhelmed and needed to take space, then it was like they would kind of count me, and I would try to expl.
390
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You know, I just need space like there's a lot going on.
391
00:42:38.109 --> 00:42:42.109
And it was like, Well, what's wrong with it? Kids not personal doing all I could.
392
00:42:42.109 --> 00:42:58.109
And then just even in one instance, where there was just a use where it was like there was this manipulation, this, you know, sitting right up in my face, staring at me like a narcissistic abuse like that coercion trying to intimidate me and so I was able to
393
00:42:58.109 --> 00:43:05.109
have enough regularulation in my system to get through that. But that awareness of these people don't.
394
00:43:05.109 --> 00:43:13.109
They're not taking the time to understand. They're not being culturally sensitive to the culture of autism and neuro difference.
395
00:43:13.109 --> 00:43:18.109
I'm noticing that it is really dysregulating me to stay around them.
396
00:43:18.109 --> 00:43:22.109
You know. And so I had to make some decisions there around that.
397
00:43:22.109 --> 00:43:30.109
But what happens a lot of times if we're not aware of that, we just stay in it.
398
00:43:30.109 --> 00:43:34.109
So this is why that section on the assessment is so important.
399
00:43:34.109 --> 00:43:37.109
Because I think people when they're assessing they just go.
400
00:43:37.109 --> 00:43:42.109
Oh, where you bullied! Came. Move on to the next thing, but it's like No.
401
00:43:42.109 --> 00:43:50.109
What really does that mean? What really does peer victimization for autistic people and autistic females look like?
402
00:43:50.109 --> 00:44:03.109
And then also relational victimization. Let's really get down to those that brass tacks. And let's then really look at, how can we actually support you in treatment planning around that?
403
00:44:03.109 --> 00:44:08.109
Yes, yes.
404
00:44:08.109 --> 00:44:16.109
Instead of me changing the way I'm showing up or I'm codependent, or I'm too needy or I'm cold and distant.
405
00:44:16.109 --> 00:44:23.109
Oh, I just cut someone off. No, let's look at the trauma around that, and maybe do some trouble work around.
406
00:44:23.109 --> 00:44:34.109
Why you had it end those relationships. And then let's really kind of break it down and look at how can we help you start to vet people in a way that keeps you safe?
407
00:44:34.109 --> 00:44:42.109
That is so important. Yes, like that. Like the vetting right?
408
00:44:42.109 --> 00:44:43.109
Vetting.
409
00:44:43.109 --> 00:44:44.109
Bring the the level of discernment right like what?
410
00:44:44.109 --> 00:44:45.109
Yes.
411
00:44:45.109 --> 00:44:49.109
Like what actually makes a friend. And can't you know?
412
00:44:49.109 --> 00:44:50.109
Yes.
413
00:44:50.109 --> 00:44:51.109
And I think especially like for women in recovery work for sex and love addiction.
414
00:44:51.109 --> 00:45:00.109
You know, it's like that. That element of pacing, you know.
415
00:45:00.109 --> 00:45:01.109
Yes.
416
00:45:01.109 --> 00:45:02.109
It's over time. Like, how do I develop? What does that actually look like?
417
00:45:02.109 --> 00:45:05.109
You know what are the red flags?
418
00:45:05.109 --> 00:45:09.109
Oh, my! Gosh! Yes!
419
00:45:09.109 --> 00:45:10.109
Yes.
420
00:45:10.109 --> 00:45:12.109
And can we develop some formula like, you know, education that's actually like cohesive.
421
00:45:12.109 --> 00:45:29.109
Because all of my education around those things has come piecemeal through the aftermath crisis, and as a psychotherapist, great like, interested in studying to figure it all out you know, it's like, can we synthesize all of the information that we know about manipulative abuseive
422
00:45:29.109 --> 00:45:45.109
predatory offender. People right to kind of get like these are red flags of which charm you're the greatest, you know, like love bombing right like there's so many 3 pants that can show that you.
423
00:45:45.109 --> 00:45:47.109
Oh, my! Gosh! Oh, my! Gosh!
424
00:45:47.109 --> 00:45:52.109
And then you're caught completely off guard, you know.
425
00:45:52.109 --> 00:45:53.109
Yes.
426
00:45:53.109 --> 00:46:00.109
But if we know, wait, someone does. Didn't know me that well, and I'm there some special everything that's something I need to register.
427
00:46:00.109 --> 00:46:01.109
Yes.
428
00:46:01.109 --> 00:46:04.109
Maybe a queue to examine right like that might mean something other than what they're telling me, you know, like there, you know, there might be something else going on, but I think we do.
429
00:46:04.109 --> 00:46:14.109
I have needed, like very directive information around how to detect potential.
430
00:46:14.109 --> 00:46:23.109
Manipulation in order. Now have a way better of like, yeah, I don't want to be part of that at the what did I do wrong? Right?
431
00:46:23.109 --> 00:46:24.109
Yeah.
432
00:46:24.109 --> 00:46:33.109
Umhm! Oh, my gosh, yes, yes, no! Same here. Same here, and I'm almost 50 and so it's like we can still fall victim to that.
433
00:46:33.109 --> 00:46:38.109
So I as you were saying, love bombing. I was thinking of that, you know.
434
00:46:38.109 --> 00:46:39.109
We're love bombed, and then it's anger.
435
00:46:39.109 --> 00:46:40.109
Yeah.
436
00:46:40.109 --> 00:46:45.109
Bombed, where all it's like it does. The switch flips.
437
00:46:45.109 --> 00:46:47.109
And so then we're like, Well, wait, you just love me.
438
00:46:47.109 --> 00:46:59.109
A minute ago, and then how is it that in one text all of a sudden, I'm in trouble, and I'm doing something wrong and I don't understand, because I'm not seeing what's going on here right.
439
00:46:59.109 --> 00:47:05.109
So I'm excited about our assessment. I want the world to know it's coming out into the world.
440
00:47:05.109 --> 00:47:10.109
We're hoping to get it into the appendix of the chapter.
441
00:47:10.109 --> 00:47:18.109
That will be part of the book altogether. Us that Jenna Romerzma edited, and then Dick Schwartz, the founder of Ifs, did the forward to.
442
00:47:18.109 --> 00:47:24.109
So we're super excited about so stay tuned for that, and then Ally and I oh, my gosh!
443
00:47:24.109 --> 00:47:30.109
Okay.
444
00:47:30.109 --> 00:47:31.109
Okay.
445
00:47:31.109 --> 00:47:34.109
We'll be presenting for 4 h. I'm so thankful for you, I think it's a week or 2 before I start my psychedelic and program my psychedelic assistance therapy program through Cis.
446
00:47:34.109 --> 00:47:47.109
So we've got a lot coming to us for September, but those of you clinicians, Medical providers I don't actually think you have to be a certified sex.
447
00:47:47.109 --> 00:47:52.109
Addiction therapist to attend through itap.com.
448
00:47:52.109 --> 00:48:02.109
But you know, if you follow either of us on social media, or you know you're just connected to us, feel free to email so that you can attend.
449
00:48:02.109 --> 00:48:10.109
It'll be 4 h we are gonna take a deep dive into autistic females and really deep dive into this assessment.
450
00:48:10.109 --> 00:48:17.109
I will probably do a little bit of teasing out between what does it look like for autistic males versus females?
451
00:48:17.109 --> 00:48:22.109
So those of you that are curious enough anyways stay tuned for that. So that's coming. I think it's September fourteenth.
452
00:48:22.109 --> 00:48:24.109
Awesome, so.
453
00:48:24.109 --> 00:48:31.109
I'm guessing. I am. So yeah, I'm so thankful to you, Ally. You're just a god.
454
00:48:31.109 --> 00:48:39.109
Send in the world of autistic females, and getting this word out there, and you've really inspired me to also up just my level of, I think, just awareness as to my own process as an autistic woman.
455
00:48:39.109 --> 00:48:51.109
And just being really supportive and capacity and just being really supportive and compassionate towards my autistic female clients.
456
00:48:51.109 --> 00:48:53.109
So thank you so much for all you're doing in the world, and for being on fabulously Candice.
457
00:48:53.109 --> 00:48:58.109
Yes, thank you for supporting me, and my voice and, you know, like kind of the you know what helps right?
458
00:48:58.109 --> 00:49:08.109
Like someone that believes in you, and says, that's actually really important to say, why don't you come on and talk about that?
459
00:49:08.109 --> 00:49:21.109
And we appreciate. Yeah, just you and the space and the autistic clinicians in the world.
460
00:49:21.109 --> 00:49:22.109
Yes.
461
00:49:22.109 --> 00:49:26.109
Right that are like really change makers here, because we're no like neuro affirming care is is where we are.
462
00:49:26.109 --> 00:49:27.109
Yeah.
463
00:49:27.109 --> 00:49:28.109
Oh, my gosh! Quality care! It's quality care. It's best practice.
464
00:49:28.109 --> 00:49:37.109
We've gotta be doing it. We focus on all the other cultures we've got to focus on cultures of neurotypes.
465
00:49:37.109 --> 00:49:39.109
Yes.
466
00:49:39.109 --> 00:49:42.109
Now is that time 2023. So, thank you, sweet friend, and I'll talk to you this afternoon.
467
00:49:42.109 --> 00:49:45.109
Yeah, I'm glad I'll get to meet with you again.
468
00:49:45.109 --> 00:49:48.109
Take good, care. Thanks, very much.
469
00:49:48.109 --> 00:49:56.109
Yeah, you, too. I just wanted to say to the world that love is medicine.
470
00:49:56.109 --> 00:50:04.109
You are love, so please be tender with your sweet cells in this world that could be so challenging for all of us.
471
00:50:04.109 --> 00:50:10.109
I'm sending you so much love, so much compassion, and until next time have a beautiful, beautiful day. Bye!