Libsyn Directory

Prefigurative Politics and Workplace Democracy w/ Saio Gradin and Nicole Wires

Release Date: 11/07/2024

From the Frontlines: State Repression and Anti-Imperialist Organizing w/ Calla Walsh

Upstream

The moniker The Merrimack Four might be something you’re already familiar with—perhaps you saw the headlines in the late fall of 2023 about a handful of direct actionists being arrested on the rooftop of a facility owned by a major weapons manufacturer in New Hampshire. Maybe you heard about the multiple felony charges that were being pressed against these actionists, the concern about RICO charges…or maybe you haven’t heard about any of this at all. Regardless of how familiar you are with the Merrimack Four, you’d be hard-pressed not to be gripped by the story you’re about to hear...

[TEASER] China Pt. 4: Unlearning Anti-China Propaganda w/ Li Jingjing

Upstream

This is a free preview of the episode "China Pt. 4: Unlearning Anti-China Propaganda w/ Li Jingjing". You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a...

Marx's Capital Vol. 1 w/ David Smith

Upstream

Capitalism is a social phenomenon—yes, it is deeply grounded in concrete, material reality—but it’s a reality that ultimately relies on a series of tricks and spells, awash in deceit and veiled in subterfuge. What is capitalism, exactly? How does it function? Why are we seemingly trapped inside of it? And, perhaps most importantly, how can we break free? Well, in this episode we’re taking a very deep dive into the crowning achievement of a man who spent his entire adult life seeking answers to these questions. Karl Marx wrote Capital Vol. 1 over ten years, spending countless...

[UNLOCKED] China Pt. 1: A Socialist Introduction w/ Jason Hickel

Upstream

The world that we all grew up in is no longer a reality—although, in many ways, those in power are grasping onto it with the desperation of drowning men flailing, lashing out—furious, terrified, and in denial of what is staring them in their faces: imminent death. The rest of us are watching this process unfold before our very eyes—also terrified, but seemingly powerless. It’s a weird time to be alive. But when has it ever not been? As we watch, experience, and feel the collapse of the state that we live within—or for those of us not currently living in the belly of the beast, the...

[TEASER] China Pt. 3: Bourgeois Democracy vs Socialist Democracy w/ Vijay Prashad

Upstream

This is a free preview of the episode "China Pt. 3: Bourgeois Democracy vs Socialist Democracy w/ Vijay Prashad." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make...

Marxism for the Masses w/ Savannah from All Power Books

Upstream

Marxism is not some esoteric philosophy meant to be analyzed and discussed in the ivory towers of the academy—not that appreciating Marxism from an intellectual perspective is wrong, or anything—we do that quite a bit—but at its essence, Marxism is a weapon. It’s a tool for change—revolutionary change. It helps us understand the world around us not just for the sake of knowledge—but so that we can act accordingly. This is the focus of our episode today—and the focus of our guest, who came to Marxism through real life struggle and teaches it to others with the very same...

[TEASER] China Pt. 2: Socialist Democracy and Democratic Centralism w/ Ken Hammond

Upstream

This is a free preview of the episode "China Pt. 2: Socialist Democracy and Democratic Centralism w/ Ken Hammond." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make...

Post Capitalist Parenting Pt. 1: Parenting Under Capitalism w/ Toi Smith

Upstream

Capitalism has placed us under many spells that influence and limit what we believe to be normal and natural. Parenting is one intimate site where capitalism’s spell is particularly impactful. Often leaving parents and children to feel especially isolated, alone, and precarious—perfect for keeping working people separated and oppressed and for grooming children into docile workers under capitalism. To kick off our new series on Post Capitalist Parenting, we’ve invited on , mother of four and a Growth and Impact Strategist. Toi’s work centers on doing life, business, and...

[TEASER] China Pt. 1: A Socialist Introduction w/ Jason Hickel

Upstream

This is a free preview of the episode "China Pt. 1: A Socialist Introduction w/ Jason Hickel." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show,...

Trade Wars and Tariffs w/ Richard Wolff

Upstream

If you know anything about the way the world works—and even more so if you’re someone who’s an expert in economics, political economy, etc.—then you’ll know that the narratives and rhetoric coming out of the White House on a whole variety of topics is, well, with the kindest interpretation, confused. Some harsher critics might say these narratives do a violence to reality. And it’s no different with the current discussion around tariffs: it’s all bluster, bloviation, and, ultimately, theater. What are tariffs, how are they being deployed and weaponized, and why? If these...

More Episodes

Prefigurative politics, building the new within the old, exercising our muscles of collectivity and collaboration—muscles that have grown weak and atrophied under capitalist hegemony—these are all ideas and practices that play a crucial role in our revolutionary movements. And examples of prefiguration can and do take many interesting and inspiring forms—one of these forms is worker self-direction, or worker cooperatives.

In today’s episode we’re talking prefiguration and worker self-direction—and we’ve split the episode up into two parts so that we can dive deeply into both. Part one of our conversation takes a deep dive into the concept and practice of prefigurative politics, which is, simply put, the attempt to implement the world that you want to live in, now. And we’ve brought on the perfect guest to talk about it.

Saio Gradin teaches Politics at Kings College, London and is a community organizer and educator who has spent twenty years running workshops, campaigns and organizations for global justice. They are the author of the book, Prefigurative Politics: Building Tomorrow Today, published by Polity Books.

Part two of our conversation is going to take a deep dive into one form of prefiguration—worker self-direction—specifically, we’ll exploring the ins and outs of working at a self-directed not-for-profit, which is structurally similar to a worker cooperative, but we’ll get into more those details in the conversation. The point is, we’ll be talking about what it’s like to work in a democratically-run organization. And to have that conversation, we’ve brought on Nicole Wires. Nicole is an organizer and the Network Director for the Nonprofit Democracy Network and a worker-member of the Sustainable Economies Law Center.

In this episode, we explore the concept of prefiguration and how it compares and contrasts to other revolutionary strategies. We explore examples of prefiguration in history and today and why prefigurative politics are an important component of our revolutionary movements. In part two we take a deep dive into the process and practice of prefiguration specifically in the context of worker self-direction, exploring the benefits and challenges of being part of a self-directed organization, the different types of decision-making processes utilized by certain worker-run firms, and how worker cooperatives—and the many forms they take—fit into a broader ecosystem of individuals and organizations striving to live their values in a world dominated by the logic of capital.

Further Resources

Prefigurative Politics: Building Tomorrow Today, published by Polity Books
Could pre-figurative politics provide a way forward for the left? by Siao Gradin in OpenDemocracy
Indian Home Rule Movement
Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Communities League (Marcus Garvey)
The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman

Related Episodes:

Intermission music: "Garbage Factory" by Bobby Frith

This episode was produced in collaboration with EcoGather, a collapse-responsive co-learning network that hosts free online Weekly EcoGatherings that foster conversation and build community around heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. In this collaboration, EcoGather will be hosting gatherings to bring some Upstream episodes to life—this is one of those episodes. Join the EcoGather team on Tuesday, Nov. 26 at 5pm ET for a warm and welcoming conversation! Find out more here.

Upstream is a labor of love—we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky.

You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

TOPICS