Bob Lerman: The Power of Apprenticeships

Bob Lerman, an Institute Fellow at the Urban Institute and leading researcher on and advocate for apprenticeships, discusses the role of apprenticeships in workforce development and economic mobility. He defines apprenticeships as a combination of on-the-job learning and classroom instruction, leading to occupational expertise. Lerman emphasizes the importance of work-based learning and the need for a major effort to promote apprenticeships among employers. He believes that a robust apprenticeship system can significantly contribute to a positive change in the U.S. workforce.

Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning. 

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in. 

Welcome back. I'm really looking forward to this conversation today. Julian apprenticeships are becoming increasingly front and center as a pathway to economic mobility in the US, even more so since our springtime discussion with John Colborn from Apprenticeships for America. So it really feels like the right time to take a deeper dive into this topic. 

Julian: Yes, I completely agree, and I am particularly excited to get the perspective of today's guest. He's someone I've known for decades who has been beating the drum on the importance of apprenticeship since I met him, and that drumbeat is getting louder by the day.

Kaitlin: It really is. And without further ado, let's introduce our guest, Bob Lehrman. Bob is an Institute Fellow in the Center on Labor, Human Services and Population at Urban Institute, and the leading US researcher on apprenticeship. He's a member of the board of the International Network on Innovation Apprenticeship, head of Urban Institute's Apprenticeship Group, and established the American Institute for Innovative Apprenticeship. Bob has published widely on apprenticeship, currently heads the evaluation of the American Apprenticeship Initiative and is Chairman of the Board of Apprenticeships for America. He is also a Professor of Economics at American University and a Research Fellow at Iza in Bonn, Germany. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today, Bob,

Bob Lehrman: Well, thank you for having me.

Julian: Yes, Bob, really appreciate you taking the time and you always, always forget to talk with you. And please tell us about your background and history with the apprenticeship movement.

Bob: I studied youth unemployment when I was in graduate school. My dissertation was on youth unemployment, and I had a long interest in young people entering the workforce, but we always saw that the unemployment rates were pretty high. And later, I worked at the Department of Labor for a few years on welfare reform, but also youth issues. Of course, at the Labor Department, there are a lot of programs that were aimed at young people who were having difficulty in the labor market, but subsequently I came to feel that those programs were really marginal to the overall system. That I co-authored a piece that was part of The Forgotten, Half the idea that a lot of people who don't go and complete a four year degree weren't doing nearly as well, and the government spent so much more on BA level people, so I was looking for some things that would help mainstream young people enter the labor force, and that's when I started learning more about the European systems, especially Germany and Switzerland. That culminated in some work that I did in the late 1980s with an article called The Compelling case for Youth Apprenticeship in 1990 and part of the movement that came about from commissions and research and just a general recognition that we needed a better system to help young people enter careers. We were successful, in a way, because George H.W. Bush proposed the National Youth Apprenticeship Act of 1992 and Bill Clinton liked apprenticeship, who followed him, but the new bill that came out of the Clinton administration barely mentioned apprenticeship. It was called the School-to-Work Opportunities Act, and it really involved very thin interventions for the many instead of intensive and thick interventions for the group I was concerned about, and ultimately that project sort of faded out. There was a sunset provision in the legislation, and it wasn't renewed. But I kept at it because I didn't see a better way than apprenticeship. I will say one other thing, which is, having worked in a factory, I came to believe that… I came to the realization that a lot of what we might call unskilled work, and machine operators didn't have to be unskilled. That the best machine operators were really valuable, and they were far more valuable than just someone who got a few weeks of training. And so I had embedded in me this idea that skill can be applied to all kinds of occupations and mastery is something much more significant than just being able to get through the job. 

Kaitlin: That additional context is is very eye opening, right as far as how you come to this work, Bob, and the applied nature of it for you as well. And you know, as you're talking about your background with this work, one thing that sticks out to me is there are so many, there are so many movements in education, and some that are much more long standing than others. And I'm just curious to I'm wondering, as you're providing this background, you know, what has it been like to stick with this, with apprenticeships as this movement for the over the long term and like and you know what has made you really stay with it all these years, and especially now that it's become so front and center?

Bob: Yeah, well, it's, it hasn't been easy. There's not a lot hasn't been a lot of funding for it, but and people used to wonder when in a Washington meeting I would bring up apprenticeship again, I didn't see anything better. And then a few things inspired me to continue to push hard. One was the expansion of apprenticeship in the UK, where they had allowed the program to atrophy and go down to about 150,000 and then within six, seven years, they went up to 800,000 and the Prime Minister would talk about apprenticeship, and it became something on the tube trains that they would advertise for apprentices. And I got to know some of the people involved in that effort, and then some friends in South Carolina started to do better in terms of reaching out to companies. And I went down to see how they did it. And that was inspiring. That was starting in around 2008 or nine through 2013-14, and also I didn't hurt that I was asked to write some chapters here and there, and so that pushed me to do more thinking and to do more writing about apprenticeships.

Kaitlin: Can you please define what we mean by apprenticeships? Because I think there's a lot you know, we hear registered we hear non registered. Can could you spend a little bit of time there just around definition of terms?

Bob: Apprenticeship is a process by which an individual learns both on the job, contributes to production while being on the job, and gains and learns theoretical concepts off the job, all leading to occupational expertise, or at least full competence in a rewarding occupation, in the desirable occupation. So it's this combination of learning by doing actual work and then learning off the job. The actual work is very important and often left out because people say work based learning, but work itself is relevant, and work is what helps an employer recoup some of the benefits. Work is also relevant to learning and doing real work gives people a sense of accomplishment. Let's remember young people when they're very young. They like to do things. They like to make things. They like to get around things. They don't like to just sit and I mean, yes, sitting and reading is good, but in addition to that, they like to do things. And I think by the time a person is 17, 18, 19, having them be in a pure classroom setting for their whole learning process, I think doesn't work for a lot of people. It may work for a minority of people, and God bless them. Let them do that. We don't have to have the same process for everybody. I have a phrase, sameness is not equality. If people learn in different ways, then pushing sameness is going to be disequalizing. Apprenticeship is fundamentally about learning, but learning through practice. Now in the US, we have a system called registered apprenticeship, and state and federal offices of apprenticeship, about half the half the ways of registering are with the federal government. Half the states and in 28 states or so states have offices, state apprenticeship agencies. And organizations, employers, that want to create a registered program have to gain approval. There's some paperwork involved laying out what the occupation is. It has to be called an apprenticeable occupation, which I believe could be almost any occupation. But in the terms of the government, it's an apprenticeship that has already an occupation, that's already been apprenticed in one way or another. Depending on whether you go to a state or the federal government, there's an approval process for a program to be registered. The term sponsor is the group that applies for the registration. And a sponsor might be one employer, several employers could be some outside organization, such as a community college or even a high school, and sometimes it's a joint employer union program. So that's the way the registered system works. But of course, we have a lot of companies doing elaborate training for an occupation that could be called an unregistered apprenticeship.

Julian: So Bob, it sort of feels like everywhere we go in our consulting work and in many of our conversations on this podcast, apprenticeships keep keep coming up. So what's different now? 

Bob: What's different is, you're right. People are all talking about it, and there are lots of individual programs, initiatives, states, getting more oriented toward it, and that's a great thing, and that keeps me going. The mission is to scale the system, to make it be a mainstream option for all kinds of young people. And we have a long way to go to get there. Also the federal government increased its investment, but relative to other countries and relative to what we need to do, it's still fairly small from a national perspective. So what's different is, I think people understand it better than we did in the early 1990s. I think there is less pushback about the college for all movement that as college costs have, you know, just spectacularly increased and the union side of it is a little more mixed. I think, in that period, they really felt they owned apprenticeship and were very nervous about letting it widen. It wasn't going to be easy to widen, but anyway, they were concerned about it. Think that is a more mixed picture now. But what's the same is that we still are dwarfed by what I call the academic only approach, and the funding for that academic only approach is massively greater, I'm not looking to get that kind of funding, but a fraction of that, I think, would go a long way, and we still have to achieve that. One thing I do believe, which is quite different, is that people understand w.hy we want to do it. They understand least, much of the understanding is that you want to help young people learn by doing and get into rewarding careers. And that's a change. There are disputes about how to do it, but the why seems to be more widespread, by the way, way back in the late 80s, early 90s. You know, if I talked to a taxi driver and told him what I was doing and saying, some people think it's too early to start. In late high school, he said, Oh, that's too late. He should start. And through those years, people would, you know, informally say to me, yeah, that's a good idea. Keep at it, Bob.

Kaitlin: There are a lot of different threads for us to pull upon from what you just said, Bob, and I think maybe where we can go first is what you're saying about some of the initiatives, where that you're that you're excited about, or where you're seeing promise. We'd love to hear that. You know what? What is showing the most promise, from your standpoint?

Bob: I'm working with state senator Rosapepe of Maryland, who got passed into law the notion that by 2031, 45% of Maryland high school graduates will have done the high school component of a registered apprenticeship. And he's very hands on in looking at, you know, what occupations and how to make apprenticeship a route to those occupations. We're seeing Indiana start a big effort. You know, other states, California said that the governor has a goal of 500,000 and so there's a lot of push toward that. We've also, as I say, learned more. We're learning more from Labor Department projects that have provided funding for intermediaries and others to do apprenticeship. And out of that has come a network of organizations that have gained some experience in what I call the selling and organizing function with employers. So that's going on. And I think, in a way, that effort, although I think we should do things differently. Now, that effort was good in getting things started, getting some organizational expertise, but now the big question will come, can we scale and what do we need to do that, and how to make it, as I say, into a mainstream option.

Julian: Which is a perfect segue to the next thread that I'd like to pull on, which is, well, you know, you alluded to this a bit, a bit you mentioned this earlier, but if you could elaborate about really now, what are the greatest challenges to establishing apprenticeships at scale?

Bob: The challenge, as I say, is how to do it, and I strongly believe that people underestimate the issue of how to get an employer to adopt apprenticeship. That's an investment that the government could help with in a big way. Once an employer starts doing apprenticeship, they start seeing the benefits, not all, and they don't always have openings that apprentices can enter, but if we don't have a major effort to sort of sell and organize that's going to be the biggest barrier. I think once we get employers, the scale of employers on board, you know, like, once they build that, the people will come, I think once the offers are out there, once employers are demanding from school systems to collaborate and saying, If you don't, we'll find another way to do the off-job learning, that's going to continue to drive the outcomes. I think President Biden put out an executive order for the federal government to look into doing more apprenticeships years ago, when I looked at it and did a search on the Office of Personnel Management, a big handbook, the word apprenticeship was mentioned only once, and that was for Labor Department hiring of apprenticeship training representatives. So there have been many efforts to engage with the Office of Personnel Management to do, to do more. Maybe this executive order will help. I think we're trying to get more states interested in using apprenticeship for state employment. I think that should be a somewhat easier lift, but it's still the case that you need to persuade the employers, as I say, they might be public or private employers, and we're seeing lots of shoots around that are starting to bear a little fruit. And I'm still in this business, because I'm gonna do everything I can to help it grow. 

Julian: What about challenges at the policy level, particularly nationally, but you're also talking a bit about states, like, how do we get those policymakers to really move beyond the grant funded approach?

Bob: Yeah, that's a great question. It opens up the issue of registered versus unregistered apprenticeships. It happens that in New York there are about the same number of apprentices as in Indiana. What is that telling us that's in terms of registered apprenticeship. That's telling us that the state apprenticeship agency in New York has been traditionally very restrictive. Pennsylvania has also got a pretty restrictive agency. They have all inappropriate criteria for making a program registered. And bear in mind, this is all voluntary. Employers do not have to do apprenticeship. They can actually call anything they do apprenticeship in the UK, apprentice. The word apprenticeship is copyrighted, and the government owns the copyright, so you can't just call anything an apprenticeship, but there are some very good programs that are not registered, and we don't have that many incentives, and we do have some barriers for registration. That's why the we at Apprenticeships for America believe in the role of intermediaries to help the employers start the programs register the programs we'd like to see registration, because, in a way, that's the only way we can have some broad based funding as well, because you do have to have some approval, some test of whether this apprenticeship is a real one if you're going to provide, for example, funding for the off job learning, so that that is a barrier for many companies. And you know, we're hoping that this intermediary approach, where not only can they try to persuade companies, but try to create what we call group sponsors, where the employer only has to sign one page of an employee player acceptance agreement to join a program, and that those can be significant. Again, I would say if, if we, if we had some real funding. And interestingly enough, yesterday, there was a Washington Post editorial promoting a big funding increase in apprenticeship. Talking about apprenticeship. Heather Long of the Post wrote that article, if we got in the range of three to $8 billion which is, you know, a significant increase, but small compared to a lot of other programs. I mean, after all, Job Corps alone is like 1.6 or 7 billion, and the evaluations are not all that positive about it. I think if we can persuade some shifting of funding, some new funding, perhaps that will help drive the city. System and will help promote the program and maybe overcome some of the obstacles.

Kaitlin: So transitioning us a bit based on your lessons learned over you know, more recently and over the years, what are practical steps our audience can take to become forces in the apprenticeship space, especially as it gains momentum, yeah,

Bob: If they're employers and they don't have a program, contact Apprenticeships for America will set you up with some people who can help you start one. You know, I think be supportive of any legislation and of policies that can promote apprenticeship. I like to say that when you asked me about my motivation, I I wasn't giving you the complete answer, because the complete answer, and this may be pie in the sky, but the complete answer is that a really robust apprenticeship system can change America, and it can change America because you will have a lot more people proud of what they do, gain a sense of occupational identity, feel more mature early on in life, which I believe, will have all sorts of side benefits, like enhancing marriages and increasing the marriage rate. Just have a greater sense of belonging, a greater sense of feeling that they're contributing to whatever is being done. There was an old phrase called the community of practice, that they'll feel a part of a community of practice, just like lawyers and doctors do, welders do. We don't recognize it, but they do, and when you get to that level of expertise. It's just a great feeling of competence. Moreover, I think many of them through this process will feel that they're learning how to learn. And we have the system here where, I mean, it's changed a bit in terms of people going back to school, but the mainstream system is you finish high school and then you immediately go into a continuing academic only setting. Some people might want that setting, but later on in life, after they've learned how to learn, and there are many opportunities for that, but these social dimensions, I think, are among the main things that drive me And push me toward doing whatever I can to make America better through this approach.

Julian: I'm so glad you added that point, and it is so key. And I mean, I'm even thinking of intergenerational connections. I mean, like, look, you know, we talk a lot about the silos, the divisions in this country and work brings people together and and also with the just the rapid changes in the workplace, we have to learn by doing. I mean, our books are obsolete today. They're published. I hate to say it.

Bob: Absolutely, and that intergenerational point is quite interesting as well, because again, when you have a parent who has accomplished something in a field, whether their children will go into that same field, they will recognize that, hey, my dad knows a lot of things that I don't know, and I think it's healthy. 

Julian: So Bob, as we, as we wrap up our discussion, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Bob: At Urban Institute, they can Google. Robert Lerman, Urban Institute apprenticeship, and there are a lot of studies that we've done. They can continue to follow apprenticeships for America, those would be the main things. Or if they're really interested, write me, [email protected] and I will try to respond. But I think we have, we have a great network of workforce organizations around the country. You've probably interviewed many of the people in that network, and I think many of them once they learn more, once they learn the benefits that they can demonstrate to companies, they could move in the direction of going for what some people call the gold standard of apprenticeship, rather than a shorter term training program. Nothing wrong with some short term training programs, but apprenticeship is really a full fledged pathway to a rewarding career and and so once they learn that, they can start working with companies. Another thing that people can look at is at Urban we created some a library of apprenticeship programs called apprenticeshipstandard.standards.org, and you can just plug in an occupation and see what programs are out there. And we've been creating quality skill standards for a variety of apprenticeships. So those are some of the ways that people can enter into this wonderful field.

Julian: So, okay Work Forces, people you have no excuse but to become involved with apprenticeships and if all else fails, write, Bob. But thank you so much, Bob. This has really been great. Such a pleasure to talk with you and really, really do appreciate you taking the time. 

Bob: Thank you both Kaitlin and Julian, great to see you guys.

Kaitlin: As a brief update to this episode, not long after we recorded our conversation with Bob, he was awarded the Harold W. McGraw, Jr. prize in education, specifically earning the Lifelong Learning prize. We want to extend our congratulations to Bob on this extraordinary accomplishment. 

That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We are also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.