Embracing Vulnerability: Fatherhood Lessons from The Dad Bag

Navigating the Journey of Fatherhood

Fatherhood is a complex and rewarding journey that demands a unique balance of strength, empathy, and patience. For fathers of daughters, the stakes can feel particularly high. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosts Dr. Christopher Lewis, Michael Ramos, and Steven Manchester delve into the nuances of raising daughters, from the initial trepidation to the ongoing quest to raise strong, independent women.

Embracing the Journey Together

Dr. Christopher Lewis opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and learning from one another's experiences. "All of our journeys is a little bit different," he notes, "we can learn from each other... as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning." This sentiment sets the stage for an enlightening conversation with guests who have both navigated this journey and sought to share their wisdom with others.

The Initial Fear and Responsibility

When asked about their first reactions to learning they were going to be fathers to daughters, both Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos admit to feelings of terror. Such an emotional response is not uncommon; many fathers experience fear when anticipating the responsibilities of raising a daughter. Manchester explains, "I needed to do it the right way... kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch." Ramos, reflecting on his own experience, highlights the ongoing nature of parenthood: "I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the hospital... I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning."

Addressing the Biggest Fears

Lewis probes deeper, asking about their biggest fears. Here, Manchester articulates the weight of setting a high standard, "I want me to be the example of what she should expect." For Ramos, the sentiment is similar. He emphasizes the importance of modeling respectful behavior to set high expectations for how his daughters should be treated by others, and also how his sons should treat others.

Overcoming Challenges

Every parent faces challenges, but raising daughters comes with its own unique set of difficulties. Manchester likens raising boys to "playing checkers" and raising daughters to "playing chess." The complexity, he notes, requires a deeper level of empathy and understanding. Ramos concurs, describing the intricate personalities of his daughters and the importance of adapting his approach to meet each of their unique needs.

Building Strong, Unique Relationships

Fostering strong relationships with daughters involves more than just being present; it requires emotional vulnerability and genuine connection. Ramos shares that learning to be nurturing, sensitive, and empathetic was crucial for forging these bonds. Manchester underscores the importance of having individual relationships with each child, independent of the rest of the family.

The Genesis of "The Dad Bag"

The conversation then shifts to the inspiration behind The Dad Bag, a book co-authored by Manchester and Ramos. From the anxious moments of early fatherhood to the realization that parenting lacks an instruction manual, Ramos recounts his journey towards writing a guide that offered practical, heartfelt advice for new fathers. Manchester, an accomplished author, saw an opportunity to create something impactful, noting, "This book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written."

Lessons from The Dad Bag

The Dad Bag uses the metaphor of a "dad bag" filled with symbolic items to represent life lessons. These items serve as visual aids to reinforce critical messages, making the lessons accessible and memorable for both the father and child. The book aims to break through stereotypes and offer a new model of fatherhood defined by empathy, vulnerability, and engagement.

Be There and Don't Give Up

As the podcast concludes, Dr. Lewis asks for their final piece of advice to fathers. Manchester succinctly states, "Be there," while Ramos elaborates, “Don't give up. You got this." Their words resonate as a reminder that fatherhood is a journey filled with highs and lows, but with presence and perseverance, every dad can make a profound impact on their daughters' lives. For more insights and to get your copy of *The Dad Bag*, visit [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com). Fatherhood is a journey best taken together, learning and growing every step of the way. Here's to raising strong, independent women, one day at a time.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guys to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women, Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to welcome alongside you as you're working to raise those strong independent women that you want to grow up in society today. And all of our journeys is a little bit different. We're all on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other. We have an opportunity to learn from each other. And every day that we walk on this journey, there's something new that we can learn from the person next door, from the person on the other side of the earphones. It doesn't matter as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning. And that's what's important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]:
And every week I work to be able to help you to meet new people, fathers or others with resources, people that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way. Every father fathers in a little bit different way. And there's a lot of resources that are out there as well. Today, we've got 2 great dads with us. Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos is with us today. They both are fathers of 4. We're gonna be talking about their journey as fathers, but also authors. We're gonna be talking about a book that they put out just recently called The Dad Bag, and we're gonna be talking about that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]:
So I'm really excited to have them here today and have you learn from their journeys. Steven, Michael, thanks so much for being here today.

Steven Manchester [00:01:33]:
Thanks for having us, Chris.

Michael Ramos [00:01:34]:
Thank you very much, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time because I have that power and I love to be able to have our dads do some self reflection here. And I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a daughter. What was going through your heads?

Steven Manchester [00:01:52]:
Tara. Absolutely, Tara. I think for me, Chris, it was a lot of weight. Right? Because I needed to do it the right way. And we've, you know, as you know, and Mike knows clearly, kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch. So from the moment we had our daughter, Isabella, I can honestly say she's made me a better person, a better man. And I've been really conscious of what I've done and the things I've said because of wanting to be that dad to her.

Michael Ramos [00:02:13]:
I think Steve probably echoed my exact sentiments with Tara, uncertainty. I know I figured it out. I I knew I'd figure it out eventually, and some things would be innate, but there were so many questions that I didn't have. And I think the answer is that I didn't have to questions. And I won't tell you where the dad bag came from yet, but it does directly connect to the moment that I realized, like, I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the the hospital. But I think I learned within the first few months that this was a journey and not a destination being a dad, specifically to girls, that I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning because things would always change. And that's exactly what has happened and continues to happen, even with the oldest one being 19.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]:
Now, both of you said that your first reactions were terror. And that being said, I hear that from a lot of dads, especially dads with daughters, that there is fear, the fear going along with raising daughters. Talk to me about your biggest fear in raising a daughter.

Steven Manchester [00:03:12]:
It's my true belief that our job is to to raise them, right? Not keep them. So even from the time that they're young, again, it's all about setting that example, but whoever she ends up with or whoever she has contact with as far as boys or men, I want me to be the example of what she should expect, right? Like the bar should be raised very high. So for me, the tarot really comes from the weight of responsibility, right? Of getting it right. You know what I mean? And it's never gonna be perfect, we all know that. God knows I've made my fair share of mistakes, but the intentions of being conscious of the fact that listen, I need to do the best I can do so that she understands what, you know, what she deserves. Right?

Michael Ramos [00:03:56]:
And I think for me, it was very much the same. It's funny because I tell the story and it it applies to both my boys my boy and my girls. But, as far as Steve said, setting the bar. I always wanted my girls to know what the expectation was from the boys that would they would come in contact with. And then I wanted to be the same example for my son so he would know how to treat all of the people, and lead by example in that way. And and somebody had once shared a story, and that's where I learned this from. They shared a story once with me and they said, I want if my daughter goes out on her 1st date at whatever age it is and somebody treats her disrespectfully, I want it to be a red flag. I don't want it to be something that feels normal or feels like she's seen or experienced at home.

Michael Ramos [00:04:48]:
So although I think that's who I am anyways, is to be very respectful at all times. It especially made me conscious of the fact that I need to be respectful at all times in my treatment of all women, whether it was a partner, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, because that's the example that I was setting for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]:
And raising kids is never easy. There is definitely high points, but there is challenges, there's hard parts. Talk to me about the hardest part in raising a daughter.

Steven Manchester [00:05:14]:
Well, I can tell you from experience, you know, I've raised a couple sons and that was like playing checkers. And then along comes my girl and now I'm playing chess at an advanced level. So it's amazing. I mean, you almost have to become an empath in a sense where it's not just the way that you think, it's the way that you feel and trying to understand how they feel and and providing what they need. So for me, the hard part was, I guess, getting out of my way and not trying to fix everything for her. Just being able to listen and just be there for her.

Michael Ramos [00:05:40]:
Again, similar. It was being able to determine when I needed to listen and when I needed to solve the problem because they're very different and there will never be any instruction given. There's almost an expectation that and I said because I've had hundreds of conversations with my 2 teenage daughters where sometimes I got it right and sometimes I was listening when I should have been solving and sometimes I was solving when I should have been listening. And I think to answer the question more specifically, what's been the most difficult part for me, I think has has been learning their personalities because I feel like they're a little more deeper and complex than my boy, and I can only draw from that example. But my 3 daughters are all very different from each other. And there's an expression in psychology that they use where you peel the layers of the onion back to get what's inside, to get to what, you know, the deep root of what's inside is. And one daughter wants me to peel the onion very, very slowly over the course of 45 minutes to get to that. The other daughter wants me to smash the onion, which is more my style.

Michael Ramos [00:06:45]:
Get what's inside. And then the other one wants me to peel it, like, ever so slowly, then start smashing the load, then go back to peeling. You know, so I think that's been the most difficult part is trying to understand how complex and beautiful their personalities are, how unique they are, and then how I need to then respond differently, learn and grow and do things that don't feel natural to me because my personality tells me to handle everything one way, but they are very different human beings and need me to handle things differently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]:
Now you talk about the fact that every child is unique, and that's definitely the case. You can have 2 kids that you come from the same parents, and they can be completely different individuals, and we always see that. So talk to me about with your kids, especially your daughters, how have you been able to build those strong, unique relationships with each of your daughters? And what's your favorite thing that you do and share with your daughters?

Michael Ramos [00:07:42]:
So important to me. I think learning that it was okay to be nurturing, learning that it was okay to be sensitive, learning that it was okay to cry. And I'm not saying breakdown crying every 15 minutes throughout the day, but learning that it was okay for me to have emotions because society has dictated to me that I can only be tough, that men don't cry and that men don't have emotions and reactions like that. So I was able to connect with my daughters because I was able to be vulnerable. I was able to connect with my daughters because I knew empathy, because if I didn't know empathy, how could I understand them and be compassionate and be empathetic if I couldn't be that myself? So through a 13 week curriculum that I became a nurturing father's facilitator and worked with a lot of dads and some incarcerated dads. I learned a lot of things that later on in life where I was I was able to, to apply. But I think those things were so critical in order for me to be able to connect with them at the level that that I do where they're so comfortable. They'll talk to me about literally anything.

Steven Manchester [00:08:42]:
That's not gonna be easy to follow, Chris. That was fantastic. But I will just add to that and say that for me and Bella, it was just 1st and foremost just being there, making sure that she knows that I'm a vet. I don't care what it is like I'm there. And secondly, I think it's so important to have relationships with each of your kids that are independent of everybody else in the family. So there are times the whole family is doing things, and then there's times where I just go out to to lunch with my daughter. And then we talk about and it's a a relationship that I've established just between her and I, and I think that's where the trust is born and it's kind of built on. I don't ever want her to play, you know, need to feel like she used to play favorites, but it's, it's also, it's very, very important to me if you're feeling down, you'll just need to go to your mother.

Steven Manchester [00:09:23]:
You can come to me as well. And to Mike's point, being aware of the fact that I need to have that empathy, I need to show that empathy, and And I may not have all the answers. And even if I do, she probably doesn't wanna hear them anyway. So again, it's just being available and and, making sure she knows that I have her back, which is an odd way to put it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]:
But Now I mentioned at the beginning that the 2 of you came together to write a newer book called dad bag or the dad bag. And, I guess I wanna go back before I ask you some questions about the book itself. Let's go back to the genesis of this because I know, Steve, you've been an author for many years, your style of writing is a bit different than what this is. So so talk to me about how the 2 of you came together and why you decided to come up with this concept and put it onto paper.

Michael Ramos [00:10:12]:
So, let me just stop by saying I just need to give a little kudos to the amazing human being, father, and friend that Steve is because Steve Manchester, I've known as an author and I've known as a friend. I don't consider myself to be an author. This was something very important to me, and he's done presentations for me and in front of dad's groups and for private agency and also some state agencies. So I knew that he would be the perfect person. Where it came from was early, you asked, the terror feeling of knowing that I was having a little girl, but also just like a child, period. I remember bringing my daughter home from the hospital and putting her on the floor in the car seat. And I was sitting in the living room by myself, and I looked down at her in the car seat, sitting there between my legs. And I said, geez, what do I do now? And I went, well, I guess I should take her out.

Michael Ramos [00:10:58]:
That's a stop. Let me take her out of the car seat. And I mean, I kinda knew what to do, but, like, I also didn't. So I figured it out, stumbled along over the next, like, you know, week or 2, and then the remote control broke for the TV. So I went to RadioShack for anybody under 40 who's listening. That's, an electronics saw that once was in business. But I went to RadioShack and I bought a new new remote control for the TV. I brought it home and I opened it up.

Michael Ramos [00:11:27]:
It was like $6.99, and it had 12 pages of instructions in 5 different languages. And I said, this remote control comes with that many pages of instructions in so many different languages. And I just brought a beautiful little human being home from the hospital with, like, no directions whatsoever, with no instruction, with no anything. And I said, gee, someone should write a book, not only just for parents to come home from, like, you know, the the hospital with, but especially dads. And that's where the dad bag came from. Steve and I had already worked together doing some fatherhood work, him mostly doing some presentations. And I was already doing nurturing fathers and also some a lot of presentations nationally. And I reached out to him and just just like that, he said, love it.

Michael Ramos [00:12:14]:
Love the idea. Let's do it. And I know that fatherhood is so important to him. I knew it just would be a great marriage to, get the book written.

Steven Manchester [00:12:22]:
I gotta tell you, it was a no brainer for me because first and foremost, I really admire Mike. The things that he's done in the community, for the state, the impact that he's had on people, how can you not get your wagon to that? So some of the themes that I've had in my writing over the last 30 years really has a lot to do with fatherhood. Mike and I are really big on there's a big difference between being a father and being a dad, and it's like kinda hammering that stuff home. I also have a background in the prison system. I worked for the Department of Correction for 10 years. So I saw guys that were leaving without a clue on how to father their children. And you think, what a tragedy, right? Because generationally, that's, you know, that's potentially, you know, absolutely awful, right? So, it made perfect sense. And when we got together Mike's concepts, we were able to flesh them out.

Steven Manchester [00:13:04]:
It took some time. We had to find the right illustrator in Stephanie Grassi, who's just a wonderful person as well. So this hasn't been any work at all. For me, it's been a joy. And I really think, I mean, I normally write adult novels, write 90,000 words. This book, I don't know what even it came in at, but I think this book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written. And I I'm grateful to Mike for that opportunity to be able to be a part of

Michael Ramos [00:13:29]:
it. Ironic. I'm more grateful to you. So that's really nice.

Steven Manchester [00:13:33]:
And I I do mean that sincerely, right, for the people that are listening. I think, you know, Michael will get into this a little bit too, but it's not a bad bag, but it's really I think it's for the family. I think it's for the entire family. I think it's for the dad kind of being able to help mom out or step up and and, you know, do what he's supposed to do. But in a way that what I love about this is it's really almost an instruction guide that's disguised as a children's book. So if dad's reading that to to, you know, his child and dad's also learning as well. Right? And I'm a firm believer we're all in the same boat. Right? It's just you gotta pick up a paddle and start rowing, and I think that's what this book's about.

Michael Ramos [00:14:08]:
There's so much data and statistics out there that prove that mom's health is increased significantly when dads are engaged. There's factors and indicators for breastfeeding that more moms breastfeed and are likely to breastfeed if they have dads engaged. And it makes sense why. And it makes sense that there's moms that are under less stress when dads are involved because dads are helping out. And we know parenting for mom or dad, because both are critically important, is very difficult if you're doing it alone. I mean, I think that's also one the things that we like to drive home is that dads really need to be engaged and involved. And the difference between being a dad and being a father is exactly that. It's not just buying a ball for your kid and saying, oh, here, I bought this ball for you.

Michael Ramos [00:14:49]:
And then going in the house, it's stopping to teach the rules, to play the game, to, you know, to teach kids how to self regulate. It's all of those things. And while you're doing that, mom gets a break too and vice versa.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]:
Now in the book, one of the things that I noticed was that the father in the story talks about the importance of effective communication. How do you think his approach to communication differs from the conventional methods and why do you think it's effective?

Michael Ramos [00:15:18]:
I think it's because mostly what I was saying before about empathy and compassion and being able to look at the communication from a different perspective and not from the more conventional model. And although I I think there's been a lot of movement more recently with lots of men in this country and lots of dads. I still think there's a lot of dads that still believe that they are the disciplinary, that they shouldn't cry, that they shouldn't have emotion, that they are supposed to be strong and tough. And you can be those things too, but you can also have compassion, be empathetic, and be an engaged dad. It'd be nurturing. And I think that's the difference in the approach. That's the difference in the patience. That's probably a keyword there.

Michael Ramos [00:16:02]:
The patience that it takes to develop those relationships and understand that with 3 daughters, the dad in the book was specifically just the boy and the girl, but the dad in the book's ability to understand and that that's what it took in order to connect with the children and was that a level of patience to really understand them and be able to see that empathy and that compassion.

Steven Manchester [00:16:24]:
For me, like the communication, this book in many respects is, I think we're trying to break through some stereotypes. And when you look at a generation just prior to us, my father and his brothers and my grandparents, and it went from you to be seen and not heard to my father would listen, but empathy, I'm not sure, was at the top of the list. He was putting food on the table, shoes on your feet, and if you cry, then he didn't care for it. So for me, and I'm gonna just switch real quickly right to my sons. If my sons fell down and scraped their knee, I don't I don't want anybody crying. Right? We we talked about that. But if there's something that really hurt them and it hurt their soul, I'll sit and cry with them. And it was so, so important, like, when my parents passed, I watched my kids watching me and I didn't hold back.

Steven Manchester [00:17:05]:
And I also talked about it. So Mike brought up the word earlier, vulnerable, and I think that's the key here. I believe some men see things as weakness, right, when they show their feelings. For me, that's true strength. I mean, that's strength to be able to show your children, I also have feelings, I also mourn and grieve and, you know, I'm happy and I'm sad. By sharing that with your children, you also give them permission to do the same. And I think it just bonds you closer. Right? My kids are more apt to come to me because I'm not going to judge them based on their emotional reaction.

Steven Manchester [00:17:33]:
And I think that's one of the things I really love about this book. And Mike's concepts, even, you know, very early on from boys playing with a doll or girls asking questions, like, for me, it was like kinda let's let's just break through that and be honest. Just be vulnerable and honest. And and I think that's where the magic is in this book.

Michael Ramos [00:17:49]:
You know, to expand a little bit on what Steve said with a slightly different concept, it also makes me feel strong to be able to care for my my children. So, yeah, it's a it's a sign of strength, like like Steve said, to be able to be vulnerable and to be able to give your children permission to feel those feelings too. But it also makes me feel strong to change a diaper and to be able to cook food and to be able to care for my children and nurture my children because culturally and also generationally, historically in my family, that's not something that men do. Men don't change diapers. Men don't wash clothes, do laundry. They don't do any of those things. I've always seen that as a sign of weakness. It makes me feel strong to know that I can take care of myself and my children at all times if I need to.

Michael Ramos [00:18:31]:
It feels completely opposite to me if I have to rely on someone else to do those things because I I'm just not or I don't know how. So also, I think that's to answer your question too a little bit, that's probably a less conventional approach, but I think that's changing and I'm very happy that that's changing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]:
I noticed also in the book that the book is called The Dad Bag. The father uses various items from his dad bag as symbolic representations of life lessons. Can you discuss the significance of the metaphor that you're using here and how it adds depth to the narrative?

Steven Manchester [00:19:03]:
I think this is very intentional, right, right from the beginning that we were gonna use a backpack called the dad bag, much like a mom would have a diaper bag. The dad has the because this book was written really for for families and and children from, you know, because this book was written really for families and children from 5, you know, 5 years old on. So to look at visuals and then hear the narrative that goes along with it, I think it helps the dad or the protagonist within the story, as well as the dad who's reading the book, you know, to to his child, right? Whether it be a boy or a girl. For me, it's just again, I think kids are very visual and I think it helps to carry those lessons. It's easy to remind a kid, if you're talking to them about a certain lesson in years and a prop, later on, all you have to do is pull up the prop, and the message has been received again.

Michael Ramos [00:19:50]:
I love the representation of each item, and I feel like there could be a 1,000 things in every dad bag because of all the the life lessons, but that's where the onion peeling, that's a very personal family specific story with one of my daughters. We've we've talked about this. She'll actually reference it and say, papa, I need you to peel the onion. So we use that. It's a metaphor and it's something that, you know, you way of addressing and and introducing something in the book, but it it comes from draws from a an an actual experience that's really helped with communication that's been used a number of times where one daughter will say, you could just bust the onion because, like like, I'm going out tonight. Like, my friends are picking up in 10 minutes. You know what I mean? Or they'll say, I'm a you could just bust that onion open. So with that, everybody that ends up buying, I'm gonna send onions to everyone.

Michael Ramos [00:20:39]:
No. Nobody's getting onions. I'm just I'm just kidding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]:
Now I'm not gonna give up the end of the book, but I will say that the father at the end does share a heart felt letter that he wrote to his kids before they're born. How do you think this letter really encapsulated or encapsulates the father's hopes and aspirations for his children's future?

Steven Manchester [00:20:59]:
I think it's a representation of the responsibility that he feels. I think the important piece here, Chris, is that he wrote it before that child was born. So to Mike's earlier point, it's so important to learn each of their personalities and to be able to almost retrofit how you father, right, or how you parent. What I like about that piece of the book is that he wrote it from his heart before this child was born, right? So these are his aspirations, his dreams, and also the responsibility he feels, right, to be the right dad for this kid. And in

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]:
the end, as people are reading this book, as they are reading it to their own kids, what are you hoping that the fathers that are reading this are gaining from it personally? And what are you hoping that their families gain from it?

Michael Ramos [00:21:39]:
I'm hoping that at the very, very least, just a sliver, if the dad learns or a light turns on that there is more than one way and that there's a possibility to think outside of the box and it helps him have less fear, not have that terrified feeling. And that's why the goal for me is to have this this book literally in every single hospital in the country. Because for me, it doesn't make sense that any dad should ever leave the maternity ward of a hospital with a human being without having this book in their hand because it exists. And because it's an instructional manual, it just makes sense to me because then dads don't have to be afraid. Dads won't buy remote control that have more instructions than their child's will have that they will have brought their child to him from the hospital and it'll help with that fear. And that's what I hope the dad gets from it. And if the dad gets that, the family gets everything. So I don't even need to say what the family will get from it because if the dad, they all win.

Steven Manchester [00:22:31]:
That's a great answer. For me, I get, you know, I I've read this book 7000 times. Right? So you get to the end of it. It's almost like a sub, like a subtle contract, right, between the father and his child, where it's like, I'm setting some expectations for you, but really what's happening is he's setting expectations for himself. He's kinda laying it out there for his daughter or his son. So I love that piece of it. We don't use a sledgehammer to, you know, slam people over the head with it, but dad legitimately sits down and reads this to his daughter, then there are some expectations that are there. And so to to Mike's point, right, some of the fear hopefully gets dispelled and and this dad understands stands.

Steven Manchester [00:23:05]:
He's not the only one in the boat. We got a lot of people in the boat, so stop rowing. Mike's tying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]:
And now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as dads. So I'm gonna ask you both. So first and foremost, in one word, what is fatherhood? Love.

Steven Manchester [00:23:21]:
I'm gonna say commitment because you use love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]:
Now when was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Steven Manchester [00:23:31]:
Never. I'll say the same. I can't use one word, but it still hasn't happened. And I'm not sure it will until I draw my last breath.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]:
Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Michael Ramos [00:23:41]:
I would say loving. It depends on the kids. I hear cool a lot, but that's I sing in a rock band, and I have lots of tattoos. So, like, to daughters, I'm like a really cool dad. There's a lot of words, but I do hear cool a lot. Like, I'm a cool dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Steven Manchester [00:23:57]:
I would say the kids. I would say each one of my children because I owe that to them.

Michael Ramos [00:24:01]:
Everything that was missing in my life from a father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:05]:
Now you've both given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you shared in the book, but also things that you've learned in your own journeys. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Steven Manchester [00:24:18]:
For me, it's 2 words, be there. Above all things, just be there.

Michael Ramos [00:24:22]:
I'd add on to it. Don't give up. You got this because I think that's what I've learned from working with so many dads over the past 15 years or so is that a lot of dads just give up or they don't feel like they're good enough. And if they can't be perfect, then they don't wanna let their kids down. So that's why they check out and that's why they're not engaged. And they're not there, like Steve's saying, to be there. Don't give up on yourself. You got this.

Michael Ramos [00:24:44]:
And, yes, be there. It'll all come. And make the mistakes. It's okay to make the mistakes. We all do. That's called being human. It has nothing to do with being a father. It has to do with being you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the book or about either of you, where should they go?

Steven Manchester [00:24:57]:
First and foremost, amazon.com would be the first place that they can go to. So the book's available as an ebook. So we you have the electronic version and it's also print. It's done in print as well. And we have some I don't think it's something we'll talk about today, but we have some big plans for this book to introduce to the masses. And the hope is, again, to Mike's point, whether it be hospitals, prisons, to get this book out in mass where we can make as much impact as possible.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:27]:
A stories, your journey today. I truly appreciate you being here, for sharing your voice, and I wish you both the best.

Steven Manchester [00:25:34]:
Thanks, Chris. We appreciate you.

Michael Ramos [00:25:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, Chris. And thank you for being such an amazing host and making such a comfortable interview.

Steven Manchester [00:25:39]:
And thank you for everything you're doing for the dads out there, Chris. We appreciate that. We really do.