FS 75 Race Ahead for Facilitators with Bianca Jones, Cat Duncan-Rees and Paul Brand

In this episode Helene talks to Bianca Jones - Award Winning Mental Health & Anti-Racism Training Provider, MHFA England Associate and Founder & Managing Director of EDP Training, Paul Brand- Facilitator and Management Consultant, Director at Risk Solutions and IAF England and Wales board member and Cat Duncan-Rees-  Facilitator and founder of Curators of Change and also an IAF England and Wales board member. 

She starts by asking Bianca to talk a bit about the work she does and what led her to develop EDP and the Race Ahead training

She asks Cat and Paul about what led the IAF England and Wales Leadership Team to ask Bianca to deliver this training course online in October and about their key takeaways.

Cat and Paul talk about the RA4F special thread at the IAF England and Wales conference Facilitate 2025 this year and where the idea came from?  

Bianca shares some examples of specific impact or changes she's seen in a facilitator’s approach after attending Race Ahead

Bianca gives some more details her session at the conference and the training course she is offering the day before.

All the guests then talk about why a focus around racial equality at the conference is important and why active race awareness matters in facilitation and what anti-racism might look like for facilitators.

The guests also talk about their hopes for longer term initiatives in teh facilitation communicty around anti-racism.

To book onto the RA4F course on 24th April 2025: 

To book onto the Facilitate 2025 conference

 

To contact Bianca - [email protected]

To contact Cat - [email protected]

To contact Paul - [email protected]

To contact Helene: [email protected] 

 

To contact the conference team: [email protected]

Transcript

H.J

Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell, and today we're going to be talking to Bianca Jones, Cat Duncan-Rees and Paul Brand. Bianca is an award winning mental health and anti racism training provider, MHFA England associate and founder and managing director of EDP training. Paul is a facilitator and management consultant, Director at Risk Solutions and IAF England and Wales board member and Cat is also a facilitator, founder of curators of change, and also an IAF England and Wales board member. Welcome everybody. So nice to see you all. Okay, so we've got a little bit of introductory stuff out of the way. I am going to dive in with my questions, and my first one is to you, Bianca, tell us all. Tell us about the work that you do.

 

B.J

Oh, thank you so much. So I am Bianca Jones. I run a company based in Bristol called EDP training, which stands for Empower developed people, although we deliver training all over. We are eight years old, and we started by delivering Mental Health First Aid training. I retrained with Mental Health First Aid England, and through my work, I saw that there was massive inequalities in the workplace with black and brown people or racially minoritized individuals is the language that I will use, and I wanted to do something about it. So I started pulling together the race ahead suite of courses all around race, equity and allyship, to help people really understand what they're being an ally to. And that's been since 2020. We've been delivering our race ahead suite of anti racism and allyship courses .

 

H.J

Great, and what kind of people come to these race ahead training courses?

 

B.J

So first of all, anybody can sign up, because we have digital options as well, and anybody who's interested in kind of racial inequality. But we started focusing at corporate organisations, so mainly businesses, but I work with so many different types of organisations, small organisations to really, really large you know, with over 500 people, we work with charities as well, nonprofits, and we have lots of different options for if it's just an individual that wants to do some training, they can access our digital self-led options. And then we also have a train the trainer, because other trainers wanted to be able to train in this course and be able to deliver it as well. So we started that in 2022 in September, I believe. So we've currently got 15 other instructors out there that are delivering the race ahead suite of courses as well, but we tried to have lots of different options to make it accessible for anyone that wants to learn about this very important and vital subject. 

 

H.J

Wow. So it's not just you. In fact, there's quite a large group of you then.

 

B.J

Absolutely taking over, spreading the message with the mission of race equity and allyship. 

 

H.J

Fantastic. Okay, and I've met you before, along with some of the IAF leadership team, because you delivered your race ahead training course to us, didn't you? And so I'm going to turn to Kat and Paul now to just remind us, or remind me, and let everybody else know how this came about. How did the IAF leadership team come to engage Bianca and be participants in her training course?

 

P.B

We started having a conversation about a number of things to do with racial discrimination and minoritization out of the back of our two most recent conferences. And we were looking at a whole range of stuff about, you know, how racially balanced was our actual community? How comfortable were people from different backgrounds in that community? And we had some conversations, you know, because not everybody was entirely comfortable. And people had some experiences they thought, well, that could have been a lot better. And really, we started to think about whether we should have some kind of initiative across our community of IAF England and Wales and friends, that we could invite people to join, to do some self work in this area. Think about how it affects our work as facilitators. And we thought that the first step we should take was as a leadership team, or at least parts of the leadership team actually engaged with that ourselves, and we had a contact who knew Bianca. And so about eight of us had two or half day online sessions with you, and started to think about that as the kernel of something we might spread more widely, and I think we'll talk about later in the podcast. So yeah, but very much the sense of, well, we had to start with us before we start thinking of leading something with other people.

 

H.J

And Cat I know you were involved in a lot of the conversations that led up to this, and for you, I think it was something that was very important that we did. Wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that and how we got to where we got to?

 

C.D

Yeah, absolutely, really important Helen. I think for me, just picking up on what Paul sort of said around the conference, I think this first really started to come to light post COVID I think it's important to say when we started to bring people together. So there's a heightened awareness anyway, coming out of that post COVID period, and the world is looking and feeling very, very different. And, you know, we did a hybrid conference in Birmingham few years ago, we went on to do another two in Birmingham. We've got conference coming up this year, but over the previous three conferences, there's been a steady kind of build up of us trying to diversify that community, invite people in to do some very different sessions to really push the boundaries in terms of what we mean by inclusion for the facilitator community. I think, as well, and maybe this is a whole other podcast in itself, that idea of neutrality and how can we as facilitators really genuinely stand for, stand alongside those who are from minoritized communities, Race being one of those minoritized communities. 

 

So some of the feedback from conference has been quite hard to digest. We know we haven't always got it right, but as Paul said, what we really want to do is start with ourselves as a leadership team and a board in order to be able to have the knowledge and the insights that we need to confidently be able to get alongside people who are coming into our spaces. I say our spaces, actually we want it to be, you know, their space, and for them to be really much a part of it. And how can we also challenge back in the broader facilitated community, because there is a huge lack of awareness. And I think that's something that's taken me a little bit by surprise, my own lack of awareness in that, not just the lack of awareness of other people, but as I'm growing in confidence and awareness of why this is so important, it's helping me to have the confidence to be able to challenge others. And I think that's where we're at now in terms of conference, and not just conference, actually, Paul will talk a little bit more about that. It's, you know, what we're committed to as a community over the next 12 months and beyond, in terms of really pushing that and diversifying things even further, and helping people to understand why this is so important, whatever spaces they're in. 

 

H.J

And before we jump into talking a bit more about conference, actually, I just wanted to quickly ask both of you about your key takeaways from the training, because I know if I go back and think about part of the training there was a bit of an action plan at the end, and I go back and I think about all that. I think wow, there was a lot in there and for me personally, I learned so much. But I just wondered if I could ask each of you, maybe Cat first and then Paul, for a couple of your key takeaways from Bianca's training?

 

C.D

Yeah, I think my key takeaway was, one of them was, you know, really that commitment and willingness. In terms of a training session, you know, the people who came to those online sessions in themselves, or quite a diverse group of people in terms of gender, race, age, was notable as well and experience, you know, longevity as a facilitator, and how long people have been working in this space. And I think it was just brilliant to be in a space where people could be themselves, bring their questions and challenges and their lack of insight. And I say that for myself as well, and have a really open conversation. But I think the takeaway from that overall is how sensitively and how brilliantly Bianca supported us to do that and looked after her own well being in that. Because I think there's a fear for me of getting it wrong. But actually, you know, that's why we are where we are. I think I've been driven by that fear, personally, of getting it wrong, and therefore that drives you to a place of inaction, whereas actually, you know, and the other takeaway is that it's better just to do stuff, to jump in, be alongside. Yes, we are going to get it wrong, but actually it's better that we're going in and having those conversations and doing that than not acting at all. But having that awareness that Bianca brought to us has really, really helped with that. And you know, my commitment to that is to go down the route of, you know, continuing the training personally, and hopefully doing the train the trainer.

 

H.J

And Paul, a couple of key takeaways from you ?

 

P.B

The one that struck me very hard in the stuff Bianca did with us. And here I'm feeding partly off a similar conversation a few years ago with another Association I'm involved in and some of this became very familiar, is I am the archetypal un-minoritized person. I'm a middle aged, white, educated male, you know, I have, I have the sort of trifecta of advantages in life, in some sense. And it always strikes me in beginning, what Bianca said about just how hard work, general life can be if you are minoritized in any way. And we're talking particularly about race in this case, just because of the constant chipping away of places and language and society and expectations and things that people don't even quite realise they're doing in terms of, I mean, microaggressions is the thing we're talking about that have become so embedded in our language, in our society. But if you're on the other side of them, it's not that any one of them, you know, lays you out flat, it's the constant wear. And starting to get people more aware of, particularly people who, like myself, are not minoritized in any way or in largely way, of the fact that that is very real and very present for people is actually a huge step, I think, in starting to educate yourself. And it's no more complicated than the idea of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. And you know, how complicated is that? And yet many of us never have to, because it's not us who's suffering it. 

 

And I think also support what Cat was saying. I think a lot of people, whether they're dealing with race or any other minoritization, they become paralysed with the idea that, well, I don't, I don't know how to approach this, and they end up doing nothing. And I think there has to be a willingness in convening a space to talk and have this conversation that actually you're going to make a mistake at some point. In the sense that you're going to do something, and somebody of a different colour or minoritization is going to feel it, but it's better than doing nothing and so and just washing it back under the carpet of your life and saying, Well, you know, maybe I don't have to do anything about this. And so we get into this idea that, well, we need to start with us. We then need to think about the spaces we convene, and what we can do as IAF England and Wales to make those more inclusive, safer, more open to this kind of conversation. And then, of course, the third layer, which, of course, is the ultimate goal, is that the people from our community who come to our spaces to think about facilitation and development, that they go out into the world, and they are more able to not only be more sensitive to racial minoritization issues, but then also move on to in a number of different ways, actually becoming a force that acts against racial minoritization in the way they run their session. So that may be very overt, or it may be very subtle, just in terms of not letting things slide when they happen in a session. And maybe we'll talk about our ideas for that a bit later on.

 

H.J

Thank you. I just wanted to come back to Bianca, actually, and just obviously, you get a lot of feedback I'm sure, from all of your different training sessions that you do. How do Cat and Paul's comments and key takeaways stack up against what you normally hear? Is that the kind of thing you normally hear? Obviously, these are specific, perhaps to the facilitation community, but in general, what kind of feedback do you get?

 

B.J

The difference with this course, with the eight folks, was that you're all facilitators, you're working with groups. So the feedback was very much the confidence came out about people being able to challenge or having the language to challenge. And we go through a tool called the Four Ds, which is by a company called Pearn Kandola. So we go through, how to kind of challenge if we hear anything, and just more aware of being able to spot microaggressions. So that came through on the feedback is the confidence increase for people to actually action. So not just being passive, but actually going into action and feeling like actually they could pick up something in a group, and they could gently, maybe challenge someone to think about what they've just said, and actually noticing if somebody's being excluded or someone's being left out, and just having a little bit more awareness around the dynamics of race and racism, and how that can manifest and play out in a group. So there was more of that kind of feedback that came through from the group in October. It was nice to see, though, that I've seen a lot more action in this group, a lot more willingness and want for action. 

 

H.J

That's interesting. Why do you think that is? just putting you on the spot there

 

B.J

 Oh, I think it were, I think facilitation in itself, the group that we had, are probably more active than some other groups. I think the willingness and what happened over the two half days as we bonded as a group as well, we kind of galvanised each other. I think that was really, really helpful. And I just think there was a general interest in this, and the willingness piece was there, higher than maybe some other groups that I've worked with.

 

H.J

Interesting. Okay, thank you. And I really enjoyed your course. It opened up so many new things for me. So thank you. 

Right to my next question. Then Paul has touched on this a bit already, and I just want to bring us now to thinking a bit more about the conference, because there is a race ahead for facilitation thread at the IAF England and Wales Conference, which is called Facilitate 2025 and that's happening in April. And so I just wanted to ask Cat and Paul, what is this special thread, and where did that idea come from? The leadership team has done this training course. We've all been or eight of us went on Bianca's course. But what about the rest of it? How does this feed into the conference? 

 

C.D

Over the last three years of conference, we have, as I've said, already pushed the boundaries in terms of diversity and inclusion, and we have very proactively welcomed people into the community and into conference from a whole range of different backgrounds who would never have potentially even identified themselves as a facilitator in the first place, let alone being part of a community of people like this. And as I said earlier, you know that some of the challenges that that's then raised, obviously, if you're inviting people into a space and you're inviting them in to deliver sessions on on topics around race or inclusion or equality or whatever, then you know you have to expect that there's going to be some learning from that. And so you know, over the last few years, there's been a lot of feedback, a lot of learning. We've gone down the route of doing the training with Bianca, and we've decided that this year we will put at the heart of the conference, and we're putting the emphasis on anti racism. That's not to say that everything that you will experience at conference will focus on anti racism, but I think what's really important to us is that as an environment, as a space, over the two days, we are challenged to make people feel really welcome, regardless of their background, but in particular, those black or brown people that are coming into the space, because that has been a challenge for people in the past. So that needs to cut across the whole conference. 

 

But alongside that, we are hoping or aiming to have at least a quarter of the sessions. So in conference, we generally have four different tracks, four different themes. It's the same this year. But rather than have one track that focuses specifically on anti racism, we've decided that we will blend that. So whatever the track is, people have the opportunity to deliver a session that will focus more explicitly on issues of race and racism, and our aim is that we would have at least a quarter of the programme that will focus on those topics. Now, as you can imagine, this is quite a big, bold step, and while we've increased the number of sessions that people have delivered around issues of diversity and equality over the last few years, we probably haven't hit that kind of like, you know, a quarter of the programme is tackling those issues, so that's our commitment. But anything that we can, we can get included in the programme that focuses around race and anti racism would be, would be brilliant. So we're actively encouraging people to submit sessions with that as a focus. Obviously, the challenge to that, then back to us as a community, a leadership team and a conference organising team, is how we make sure those people are supported in that space as well. So that's something that we're giving some thought to as well. 

 

But in addition to that, Bianca will be there on the programme, and will also be delivering some sessions specifically around anti racism and race awareness. So we would really encourage people to sign up to those sessions as well. Bianca is also going to be running her race awareness course. That's an additional offer to the actual conference itself, but we've booked the venue for the day before. So we really, really encouraging people from the facilitator community to book onto Bianca's course the day before. Obviously, there is a cost for that. Bianca can't deliver this stuff for free, but that is being promoted as part of the, there are other sessions as well that you could opt to do on the day or the two days before the conference, but, but Bianca's course is one of those as well. 

 

P.B

We had the conversations about, well, what can we do at conference? And that's sensible, because conferences are our biggest space that we convene with 100-120, maybe more, this year, facilitators for two whole days. So at the conference, there will be a presence of this theme, if you like, in some sessions directly with people like Bianca. There might be some sessions where someone is doing a session on personal development, and they just weave this in as one of the points. It then is also gonna be present as Cat said, we're doing a pre-conference training day with a number of courses being offered, one of which is the opportunity of the course that we did with Bianca, but in a day. But we wanna set all of that in a longer conversation, because this isn't something you know, you go to a session at conference and that's it you're done. This is a longer conversation. And just as we convene the space of conference, and we convene the space of meetups, and indeed this podcast, we want to spend some time, at least a year, probably longer, opening up a space for facilitators to join us on this journey. To quite likely offer them to do Bianca's course as well, so there's a common base. But then to carry that on in an ongoing conversation as a community about personal experience, personal successes or failures in the area, advice and that kind of thing. Because this isn't something that people, even facilitators hear about, learn something, put it into action immediately. It's a longer process of sculpting and shaping what you do now so that it works better in this area, both in terms of your awareness of what may be happening in racial minoritization in your sessions, but also what you might be able to do about it, and that's a piece of self work as well. 

 

So what we've done is EDP 's original course is called race ahead. So we've talked with Bianca about doing some very small tweaks to that to make it very tailored for people who are facilitators, and we want to convene a number of opportunities with Bianca, for people to go through that training, but as a group of facilitators. So everybody in the cohort is facilitators, and then to join the wider conversation, not just at conference, but at other places. And that will be a rolling thing. So for some people, they might be able to, you know, do the course with Bianca in February, March, do some other reading, join a conversation. They might continue that conversation at the conference. For other people, going to a session at the conference might be their starting point. And so we're looking forward into the rest of this year and on, where we might continue to welcome people in, invite them, possibly to do the training with EDP, so there's a common language for having the conversation and then could join some kind of conversation platform, and then we'll see where we go from there. Because this is a, you know, a life journey, trying to get people to bring this into their practice, into their personal lives, into what they do with groups and communities. And that takes a bit of time. So we're going to have this initiative called RA for F, race ahead for facilitators, and we know we're going to do in the first part of the year. We're thinking about what we might do in the longer term.

 

H.J

Great. Thank you. So it's really interesting to hear the kind of backgrounds and the hopes and the, you know, the context for all of this. Bianca then I just wanted to come into a bit more of the detail. So session at the conference and the training course before the conference. So perhaps let's talk about in the conference, what kind of thing will you be doing there?

 

B.J

So we are still confirming the details, but as Paul said, for some people, that might be their first introduction. So we're still trying to keep this at a level so that everybody can have a common understanding because what we want to do is bring everybody to a baseline. So we will be focusing on understanding racism in all the ways that it can manifest, acknowledging it, accepting it, being able to challenge it as well. Language is something that we're going to touch on, because that's something that a lot of facilitators are nervous around, is using the correct language and not offending people. So we will be touching on what we call racial literacy as well to give people confidence to talk on this topic. Because if we haven't got the confidence to talk about it, we end up silent, and that's part of the problem. Part of racism is that silence. Microaggressions, so what they sound like, how we can challenge them, how we can pick up on them, and some strategies as a facilitator to support the person that has delivered the microaggression as well. And then allyship and a full understanding of what actually that is for facilitators, because, as was touched on, facilitators can get into spaces and groups that maybe there isn't a full representation of black and brown people. So there's that opportunity there as well to really demonstrate allyship during the group setting, but also in your brand and your practices, the way that you design your training, we will go into as well for representation and, yeah, creating safe spaces as well. So it'd be more around, what is racism? How does it manifest? What can we do about it? And also, what can you do in your practice as a facilitator as well. 

 

H.J

And that's within the conference. And what about the training course? Then before the conference, the day before the conference, we've got a whole day, and that presumably, is a much more meaty offering. And as Cat said, this is an addition to the conference, so it's at an additional cost. Can you tell us a little bit about what we might get from attending that training session? 

 

B.J

I was so excited about this one. So this is our one day race ahead course. This is the very course you folks have been on as well. And this is where we go into a little bit more detail about systemic racism, the history of racism, the context, really, of how we got to where we are today, which a lot of people, as Cat and Paul have said, are not aware of the history in England, in particular, of how we got to where we are today, or that this is still an issue, or a massive issue. So we'll look at a lot around context, a lot around terms. You've heard me say people of colour, global majority, racially minoritized, so we go into a deep dive into terms. We focus a lot more on microaggressions, just because that's the most common thing that you will hear in group settings, in organisations. And then we do a little bit of an allyship reflection of where we are as an ally individually, and where maybe our organisation, our brand is, our personal practice is in regards to allyship and how does it demonstrate it? So we do a lot of what we're doing at the conference, but more of a deeper dive, more meatier, and it's in the classroom, so we can actually have that face to face, those conversations, which is where the learning actually comes from. It's those juicy conversations. So I'm really excited and looking forward to taking a group on that journey with me. 

 

H.J

Fantastic and I should just say you don't have to go to the conference to be able to attend the training course that you are putting on the day before the conference. It is in the same venue, though, and also, I believe that the idea is that if you can't go to this training, there will be some other opportunities in the future, that I know are sort of being discussed after the conference. I don't know if you could say a bit more about that, Bianca ?

 

B.J

We've got so much going on with this thread, and I think it's really exciting, actually, because there's nobody else in this space that is doing anything like this, and, you know, kind of putting a focus on racial equity. So I think you folks are creating a movement, and I think it's important, because facilitators have that power, positions of power. So I'm really excited. So we've got, we're hoping to be able to put on some awareness in race equality week, which is in February. So hopefully we can do that something then. We've got the day before conference, and then post conference, we're going to be hopefully putting on some more dates for people to attend as well. And then we're hoping to be able to chivvy everybody onto one platform to continue the conversation, which I already have in place with kind of learning videos on there for people to access, and also to be able to access them of the course content and models for them to kind of refresh themselves if needed, or if something happens, maybe refer back to the training. But the main thing is that there will be a discussion area where people can talk to each other, and I'm trying to sort that out at the moment exactly how that would work. But we want a space for you folks to be able to continue your community around this and support each other and share best practices, as well as share challenges as well. 

 

H.J

Brilliant. There's a whole suite, or, as you say, a whole movement of stuff going on. Okay, so just thinking then about, you know, us as facilitators, and we've talked a little bit already about facilitators in particular, working in this space, or just making sure that they have inclusive sessions and how they kind of respond to different people in groups. But how do you Bianca approach creating a safe and open environment for facilitators to explore these kind of sensitive and important topics, because I know, as Cats mentioned, sometimes we're a little bit concerned that we might say the wrong thing. I know I'm speaking for myself as well, that, you know, I might say the wrong thing. And you've talked a little bit about language, but how do we make sure that, you know, there's a safe and open environment for us to actually be able to ask those questions and talk about this stuff?

 

B.J

Absolutely and I think that psychological safety piece is so important on this topic. The main challenge that I hear from people that are maybe a little bit reluctant is usually due to fear. Basically, they're a little bit scared of the topic, scared of what's maybe going to be asked from them in the day in the classroom. So we start by kind of letting people know what they're going to be going through, what they're going to be experiencing from the off, so that there's no fears around that. In our group agreement, we use that for, obviously keeping the group safe as well. We do a lot of pre work, so you folks would have experienced the pre training, so you have some information and knowledge before you join us in the classroom, which works really, really well to dissolve some defences, to get rid of some of the fear and to make people comfortable, as well as an introduction to myself as well. And during the classroom session, you know, we really make sure that it's a safe, open, inviting space, mutual respect for everybody in the session, and letting people know that this isn't a space for judgement. It is a space for learning. And we are all on a journey, and I do not know, you know, absolutely everything, even I can get things wrong, and that's okay, the fact is, the willingness and that we're all here. So a space of learning, rather than a space of any judgement.

 

H.J

Nice. And I know you've mentioned that willingness before, so I guess that's a key part of that, being willing and open to sort of do that learning. 

And then I suppose the important thing, which we have talked a little bit about, is about that kind of impact or future change. And I was just wondering if you could share an example of a specific impact or change that you've seen in a facilitators approach after attending race ahead?

 

B.J

Yeah, really good question. Because, of course, we can go on the sessions, but it's about that what we're doing after. Now, I mentioned a model that we use called the Four Ds by Pearn Kandola, and this is about challenging microaggressions with four different strategies. And the feedback that I've had sometimes, you know, years later, is someone saying we had something happen, somebody accidentally, because they are often accidentally, you know, unwittingly, coming out of our mouths, and then we've offended somebody. But they were able to not only respectfully help the person to think about and reflect and reframe what they have just said, but also support the person that had just received the microaggression as well. So I get a lot of feedback that, oh, I had the confidence to deal with that. I didn't just walk away. Because, of course, I hear the other side of the coin of people and facilitators saying, Oh, something happened and I really wish that I said something, but I didn't. And it's that regret that I hear a lot as well. So I'm hearing a lot about action, a lot of confidence in people being able to actually challenge things and use the right language. And some feedback from the actual course that you folks did as somebody actually put in their review a couple of weeks later, that they've shifted from a Do No Harm mindset to actively seeking ways to reduce harm and address inequalities. And I think that's a beautiful sentence that came out of your session, that somebody shifted from that mindset as well. 

 

H.J

Oh, fantastic. That's really good to hear that there's some actual tangible, you know, things that people have said they will do, or have started to do, and that you've been able to receive that feedback as well. Okay. And Cat and Paul coming back to you then a little bit. Why is active race awareness important for facilitators? 

 

P.B

As a general thing when we talk about facilitation, and in the IAF we have the competencies and the ethics things, we talk a lot about making safe spaces and balance in a room and all the voices being heard. And I think if we are, for some reason afraid, now we would call out someone who was talking too loud or someone who's being aggressive, but if we're then afraid to call out or at least move, you know, move the room slightly, if somebody's doing something that is in some way racially biassed, or is an aggression towards someone because of their race. If we have that fear, then we're actually not doing what we claim to be able to do and want to be able to do with the room. And so it's important for facilitators, first, to be able to overcome the fear of inaction. And from what Bianca has just said, get out of that, well as long as I don't cause a problem well, you know, it'll be alright. Into actually, no, I can be confident about this. I do have language and things in my toolbox of facilitation which will enable me to respond to an imbalance in power in the room that's coming from race in the same way as I would if it was from aggression or gender discrimination, which you might feel more confident about. So it's overcoming that fear. 

 

I think the other thing is that we also need to be slightly, you know, sort of multi tool people as facilitators, because there's a big difference between, say, you're going and doing you're doing one session with a group, and you realise there's, there's actually some significant racial minoritization going on in the group, and that's one of the, one of the dynamics that's going on in the group. There's a great difference in what can you do if you just have one session with the group, to what can you do if this is a longer term relationship where you might be involved in, you know, a deeper change, and it's almost being open to being able to act in either of those scenarios. Obviously, what you may be able to do if you're only there for the day may be more limited, but not doing nothing is still important.

 

H.J

Thank you. And Kat?

 

C.D

I think that the community of facilitators is very broad, because I think there's been an evolution over the years, maybe in terms of people coming into that facilitator role or community. And I think a lot of people have, or maybe continue to facilitate very much at that process end of things which can often be detached from people and humanity. You are going in, you're helping an organisation or a company, or whatever it is to you know, look at their processes, the way they do things, to be more efficient, to say whatever it is, it can be quite sort of practically focused. But I think certainly over the last few years of introducing new people to the community, what is becoming. And for my own experience of facilitation, I come to it through a much more kind of social route, social impact route. So the tools of facilitation for me are very much around, how can we bring together diverse groups of people? How can we bring together people around topics and issues that are you know, it's not just about the process itself. It's about how it's about the relationships. It's about how people interact in the space and outside of the space. And I think for me, personally, I struggle a little bit on that kind of, where are the boundaries of neutrality within that. It's much easier to be that at that process end and not to influence process, because you're not the process expert, but when it comes to the human end of it, and the social impact and the human experience that people have, and the fact that a lot of us are facilitating in spaces around environment, social issues, community, disability, it is harder, in fact, I would say, impossible, for us to go into any space like that, from from a place of neutrality. 

 

And as the facilitator, we hold a lot of power in terms of, you know, being able to welcome in different perspectives, or even to challenge back. I think, you know, when things are not, not feeling comfortable. 

And I think for me, you know, I've learned to be quite intuitive. Look less at process and and really listen and feel what's going on for me and my body, my gut, and think, actually, this doesn't feel right. And why isn't it? Why? And really search with that a bit more. And I think for some elements, and Paul's already alluded to that around maybe disability, around gender and stuff. It's easier because it's a bit more in our face, or has been, you know, over the years, that there is a greater awareness of that, whereas with the race, it's easy to walk into a room full of people who are white and not even notice the lack of brown or black people. But actually, if we have that awareness, we are in a stronger position, you know, even at that kind of process corporate level, to say, okay, is this really representative of your workforce? You know, do you not even employ people who are black and brown, you know, where are those people in the same way that you might go into an organisation, particularly around, you know, in my experience around disability, whatever, and say, Where are the people with the direct lived experience of what you're doing?

 

H.J

Thank you. And to you Bianca, why is active race awareness so important for us as facilitators? and what does anti racism look like for us? so specifically thinking about us as facilitators. 

 

B.J

A lot of what Cat has actually touched on, I think we can't ignore the power. We can't ignore the fact that facilitators can access places and spaces and groups that maybe black and brown individuals are lacking in representation. Says that real power that role model piece as well, and I think as an ally, you can do a lot. And I think Cat just mentioned, we're really confident in things like gender inequality and more so around disability as well. But what we do know is that when it comes to race, it's the one that kind of people are feel less relatable to. It gets left out alot, it gets left behind. You know, when I consult with organisations, they often talk about all the great work that they're doing around gender inequality, and then when we talk about race, they're like, oh, it's like, they forgot that one, and people will just leave it alone, which is part of the reason why I called my suite of courses race ahead to just emphasise the putting a focus on race equity. But for facilitators, I think it's really important because of that role model piece as well, and just that influence. If you are constantly facilitating with groups that stretch, that ripple effect is quite exciting that you can have. And it might seem to people, oh, well, that's really small, but actually no, because it's all those little actions of demonstrating allyship through your own practice that will have that ripple effect out into the world, making a difference. I think it's really exciting opportunity for facilitators to be able to learn about this as well.

 

H.J

Thank you so much. Hopefully this will inspire. I think that's our hope, that this will inspire more people, more facilitators, to want to know, you know, what they can actually do. And on that note, we've talked about the kind of the next things that are happening. There's a lot going on which we're all very pleased about, but how do people find out about it? So I'm going to ask Paul this question, how do people find out all about the conference and the stuff that's going on in the conference? 

 

P.B

We hope to be able to put up, we've put the conference stuff up that's now up on invent bright. If you look at the IAF England and Wales LinkedIn channel, you'll find information posted in there regularly. So the conference is up and running. When we get going with RA for F we will also be advertising opportunities to perhaps make your journey start with the training with EDP, whether it's online in advance or after the conference or on that day before the conference. There are multiple places you could go. Watch the IAF England and Wales LinkedIn particularly. Look at the bottom underneath this podcast. There'll be some links in there. He says confidently, if not, email me at [email protected]

 

H.J

Bianca, how can people contact you? What's the easiest way?

 

B.J

The easiest way and to directly come to me would be to drop me an email. It is my name, [email protected] , so that's Echo Delta Copper training.co.uk .

 

H.J

Thank you. I'm very impressed you can remember, is it the NATO alphabet? So I never remember the names that go with the letters. Thank you 

 

B.J

The phonics

 

H.J

Phonics. Thank you and Cat, how do we get in touch with you?

 

C.D

Yeah, my email is Cat, [email protected]  but you can also, if you've got queries specifically around conference, email the [email protected]    

 

H.J

So just to clarify and reassure everybody, all the notes and links and everything else will be in the show notes below. So that'll be links for how you can book onto the conference, how you can book onto Bianca's session, her training session, the RA for F training session, before the conference that will be the 24th of April. And then the conference itself is the 25th and 26th of April 2025 and all that information will be available to you all. And thank you so much for joining me, everybody. It's been really fascinating hearing from all of you and reflecting actually on the training course itself and everything that I learned as well. So thank you for joining me. 

 

Outro

 

H.J

So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales. 

 

N.W

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com

 

H.J

To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use. 

 

N.W

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to? 

 

H.J

Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about? 

 

N.W

Then send us an email at [email protected] 

 

H.J

We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.

 

N.W

Until then, thank you for listening.