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Uncertainty In Medicine: Jonathan Ilgen and Gurpreet Dhaliwal

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Release Date: 01/15/2026

CMS's Age-Friendly Hospital Measure: Julia Adler-Milstein, Stephanie Rogers, and Shari Ling show art CMS's Age-Friendly Hospital Measure: Julia Adler-Milstein, Stephanie Rogers, and Shari Ling

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

In 2025, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) began requiring hospitals participating in the Hospital Inpatient Quality Reporting (IQR) program to report on a new “Age-Friendly Hospital Measure.”  The hope is that, by attesting to this measure, hospitals will develop evidence-based processes to improve care for older adults in hospital settings. On this week's podcast, we explore this new measure with Sheri Ling, CMS’s Deputy Chief Medical Officer serving in the Center for Clinical Standards and Quality (CCSQ). We’ve also invited some returning guests from our past...

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De-intensify Anti-Hypertensives for Nursing Home Residents? Athanase Benetos and Mike Steinman show art De-intensify Anti-Hypertensives for Nursing Home Residents? Athanase Benetos and Mike Steinman

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

A few weeks ago, I was skimming this paper for UCSF’s Division of Geriatrics Journal club on de-prescribing anti-hypertensive medications for older adults in nursing homes. Seemed to make a world of sense. The  found no difference between the deprescribing arm and the usual care arm in mortality, the primary study outcome. I thought, great! So we can deprescribe anti-hypertensives without changing mortality, that must be what the authors concluded. I was shocked, therefore, to read in the first paragraph of the discussion that the deprescribing arm did not achieve the hypothesized 25%...

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Alzheimer's Definitions, Biomarkers, and Antibodies: Halima Amjad, Barak Gaster, and Heather Whitson show art Alzheimer's Definitions, Biomarkers, and Antibodies: Halima Amjad, Barak Gaster, and Heather Whitson

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

It’s an era of breakthroughs in Alzheimer’s research, yet for many clinicians, it’s also a time of profound uncertainty. We are currently navigating competing definitions of the disease, multiple new biomarkers coming on market seemingly every week, and the clinical rollout of new amyloid antibodies. How do we translate this rapid-fire science into daily practice? On this week’s GeriPal podcast, we sit down with dementia experts , , and . We dive deep into: The evolving definitions of Alzheimer’s disease.  Does someone have Alzheimer's disease if you have only an abnormal...

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Leadership, Quality, and the Future of Hospice: Guests Chris Comeaux and Cordt Kassner show art Leadership, Quality, and the Future of Hospice: Guests Chris Comeaux and Cordt Kassner

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Today we’re doing something different. Today, dear listeners, you get two podcasts for the price of one! (OK, our podcasts are both free, but you get the idea). We’re joined today by Chris Comeaux, host of , a podcast about leadership, strategy, innovation, and the future of serious illness care, and author of . We are also joined by TCN Talks’ frequent guest host Cordt Kassner, CEO of , which provides in depth data on hospice quality, utilization, and access, and publisher of , a daily email about the hottest stories and news in the field. This is an “ask us anything” style podcast...

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Deprescribing at the End of Life: Jennifer Tjia, Jon Furuno, Simon Mooijaart show art Deprescribing at the End of Life: Jennifer Tjia, Jon Furuno, Simon Mooijaart

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Philippe Pinel that “It is an art of no little importance to administer medicines properly, but it is an art of much greater and more difficult acquisition to know when to suspend or altogether to omit them.” This insight remains profoundly relevant today, especially in hospice care, where inappropriate prescribing is a common issue. Studies show that 20%–70% of hospice patients receive at least one unnecessary medication near the end of life, including drugs like antihypertensives, statins, and vitamins. In this episode of the GeriPal Podcast, we tackle the pressing topic of...

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Unilateral DNR? Gina Piscitello, Erin DeMartino, Will Parker show art Unilateral DNR? Gina Piscitello, Erin DeMartino, Will Parker

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Do you think your hospital should allow unilateral DNR orders? Under what circumstances? Through what process?  Do you think that when you obtain the assent of a family to not code their loved one, that assent DNR should be counted as a unilateral DNR order? Should we document unilateral DNR and the rationale? Why for DNR, when we don’t document unilateral dialysis not offered, or unilateral no ECMO offered?  Is the assent of a family member to a statement that we will not code their loved one a nudge, and is the assent approach ? Reasonable people will disagree, as we do on this...

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Embedding Care in the ED: Liz Goldberg and Lauren Southerland show art Embedding Care in the ED: Liz Goldberg and Lauren Southerland

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

The idea of embedding various forms of non-emergency care in the emergency department makes a WORLD of sense.  If an older adult comes into the ED with a fall, the minimum the ED has to do is address the fall injury and send them out. But many emergency providers realize this is often a band aid.  They see that patient again the next time they fall.  And again.  And again.  The same could be said for the patient who is malnourished and dehydrated and admitted for “failure to thrive,” again. And again. Our two guests today, Liz Goldberg and Lauren Southerland, both...

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AI and Healthcare: Bob Wachter show art AI and Healthcare: Bob Wachter

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Today we interviewed Bob Wachter about his book, “.”  You may recall we , and at that time he was on the fence about AI - more promise or more peril for healthcare?  As his book’s title suggests, he’s come down firmly on the promise side of the equation.  On our podcast we discuss: Why Bob wrote this book, at this time, and concerns about writing a static book about AI and Healthcare, a field that is dynamic and shifting rapidly.  He’s right though - we’ve not had a “ChatGPT”-launch type moment recently. Top 5 or so ways in which Bob uses AI for work,...

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The Role of Specialty Palliative Care in Cancer Surgery: Rebecca Aslakson & Myrick Shinall show art The Role of Specialty Palliative Care in Cancer Surgery: Rebecca Aslakson & Myrick Shinall

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

Recent randomized controlled trials have shown that routine perioperative palliative care does not improve outcomes for patients undergoing curative-intent cancer surgery. No, that wasn’t a typo. Regardless of how the data were analyzed, the findings remained consistent: perioperative palliative care DID NOT improve outcomes in the only two randomized controlled trials conducted in this area—the and trials. Null trials like these often receive less attention in academic and clinical settings, but they can be profoundly practice-changing. Consider the . While some have argued it...

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The Future of Palliative Care? Community-Based Models with Alan Chiu, Mindy Stewart-Coffee, and Ben Thompson show art The Future of Palliative Care? Community-Based Models with Alan Chiu, Mindy Stewart-Coffee, and Ben Thompson

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

“I just want to say one word to you.  One word.  Plastics… There's a great future in plastics.” This iconic line from the movie The Graduate is at the top of my mind when I think about where we are heading in healthcare. I’ve interpreted “plastics” as symbolizing a dystopian, mass-produced future of medicine—where artificiality and inauthenticity dominate in the pursuit of efficiency and profit margins. After listening to today’s podcast on the growth of community-based palliative care, I find my perspective shifting on this quote. Perhaps the advice given for a...

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More Episodes

The only certainty in medicine is uncertainty. It touches every aspect of clinical practice, from diagnosis to treatment to prognosis. Despite this, many clinicians view uncertainty as something to tolerate at best or eliminate at worst. But what if we need to rethink and reframe our relationship with uncertainty in medicine?

In this episode, we sit down with Jonathan Ilgen and Gurpreet Dhaliwal, co-authors of the New England Journal of Medicine article, “Educational Strategies to Prepare Trainees for Clinical Uncertainty.” Together, we explore the nature of uncertainty in clinical practice, its effects on trainees and seasoned clinicians, and strategies to embrace it as a fundamental part of medical reasoning rather than a regrettable byproduct.

Jonathan and Gurpreet share insights from research and clinical experience, offering practical methods to help trainees and clinicians recognize, manage, and even embrace uncertainty. Key topics we discuss include:

  • The paradoxical nature of uncertainty: When perceived as a threat, it can provoke anxiety or fear; yet when framed as an opportunity, it can inspire hope and optimism.

  • Why uncertainty is inevitable in medical practice and its impact on clinicians.

  • Is uncertainty a state or a trait?

  • The distinction between epistemic uncertainty (knowledge gaps) and aleatoric uncertainty (randomness in outcomes).

  • How experienced clinicians utilize strategies such as forward planning and monitoring to navigate uncertainty.

  • Communicating uncertainty with patients: how to do it effectively without eroding trust.

  • How to integrate uncertainty into medical education.

During the conversation, we explore the emotional responses to uncertainty and how these reactions can influence clinical practice and decision-making.

Importantly, Jonathan and Gurpreet emphasize the importance of openly communicating uncertainty with colleagues, supervisors, and patients—a practice that, contrary to common belief, actually strengthens trust, fosters transparency, and encourages collaboration. By normalizing and embracing uncertainty, clinicians can better manage the complexities of medicine and build confidence in their ability to care for patients in the face of the unknown.

 

👉 We're thrilled that Meg Wallhagen, Professor of Nursing at UCSF, has recorded an intro to this week's podcast.  Any listener who contributes $1000+ is invited to record an intro to a GeriPal podcast! You can donate here, any amount is appreciated. Also, Meg is looking for practicing or student clinicians (physicians and nurses) who are willing to participate in a study on how a simulation of hearing loss promotes a greater appreciation of the experience of hearing loss. Participation should take no more than one to one and one half hour and you will receive a gift card in acknowledgement of your time.  If interested, please contact her directly at meg.wallhagen@ucsf.edu.

For more info, click the following link to open the flyer (PDF format):  Information_Flyer_Practitioneer

 

** NOTE: To claim CME credit for this episode, click here **