Uncertainty In Medicine: Jonathan Ilgen and Gurpreet Dhaliwal
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Release Date: 01/15/2026
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Who's better at delivering palliative care to patients with liver disease: palliative care specialists, or hepatologists who have received liver disease-specific palliative care training? That’s the question we take a deep dive into on this week's podcast by breaking down the We’ve invited three of the trial's authors, , , and , to discuss this cluster-randomized clinical trial spanning 19 U.S. medical centers. We’ll discuss: Why was this trial done? Do we really need to run a separate palliative care trial for every single organ disease? What kind of specialized palliative...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Emergency Podcast! Our guests Sean Morrison, Ken Covinsky, and Stacy Fischer believe that you should care deeply about the proposed shakeup at the National Institutes of Health. Major at the would affect a huge range of government grants, from Headstart to Transportation to the National Science Foundation, as well as the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the subject of today’s podcast. You dear listeners should all care. You should care because you care for older adults, or you’re a researcher who studies palliative care, or you're a chaplain who visited with the family of...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Today’s podcast is a natural follow up to our podcasts on and .Today we talk about a new study about how clinicians , published in JAMA Network Open. Do they adhere to society guidelines, which allow as permissible approaches only shared decision-making and following institutional policy. Or do they take alternative approaches, like not offering interventions, not mentioning interventions, or simply stating a plan to limit interventions? Turns out doctors are using these alternative approaches frequently. Our guests are Jason Batten, Liz Dzeng, and Teva Brender, all clinicians, all of...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Today we revisit a topic we last discussed in a : elder mistreatment. Our guests today are geriatricians Carrie Rubenstein and Julia Hiner, and Tony Rosen, an emergency medicine doctor. They talk about where we are now, in 2026, with elder mistreatment, including: Terminology: elder mistreatment vs. abuse and neglect The need to incorporate prevention and solutions into how we talk about mistreatment This is not rocket science. Studying elder mistreatment is much harder than rocket science. Highlighting the reasons they focus on elder mistreatment, including inspiring words for...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Two retired luminaries in geriatrics join us today to share their personal experiences. First, John Burton, a geriatrician and Director of the Division of Geriatric Medicine at Johns Hopkins for some 35 years, shares his journey moving into a Continuing Care Retirement Community (CCRC) during Covid. You can read about John’s early experiences in his JAGS commentary titled, The tone is bleak. John’s experience since Covid, as you’ll hear, is very positive. Many of the concerns he raised about isolation have been addressed. Second, we hear from Bill Applegate,...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Our focus today is on the search for the geriatrician identity, a continuation of the conversation we started with Jerry Gurtwitz on the . Today’s conversation is prompted by multiple articles in JAGS: (1) an article with a title the same as this podcast; (2) an article by Helen Fernandez on “”, a new combined 4 year internal medicine residency and geriatrics fellowship track; and (3) an article by Mary Tinetti titled, “?” Of note, Mary’s article is a follow up to her 2017 in which she wrote: Those outside the field have difficulty understanding what geriatrics is and...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
I had the privilege of learning from fellow Lisa Harris about a term she termed, “.” As an ob/gyn and abortion provider, Lisa found the debate around the legality of abortion so polarizing that it created a false dichotomy: you’re either for or against. Any talk about misgivings, uncertainty, ambiguity, or ambivalence was silenced. Talking about these issues in the face of polarization was deemed dangerous and undermining to one side or another. “How could you?” For Lisa’s work in finding common ground and embracing nuance she was awarded the for forging...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
While we have previously discussed t, we have yet to explore the complex landscape families face regarding organ donation. In this episode, we dive into the nuances of Donation after Brain Death (DBD) and Donation after Circulatory Death (DCD), and clarify the essential role of healthcare providers who are not part of an organ procurement organization. In this episode of the GeriPal Podcast, we step into a space in serious illness care that is often misunderstood, overlooked, or reduced to a simple "call the organ donation network" checklist item. Joining us are three experts to help us...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
In this episode of the GeriPal podcast, we dive into the fascinating world of geriatric dermatology, or “GeriDerm,” with two exceptional guests: and . First, we tackle the big question: how do we keep our skin healthy as we age? I see this on a daily basis with my own skin, but I’m unsure what to do about it, including whether we all need to use sun protection and moisturizers, and if so, which ones? Then we explore the lag time to benefit in dermatology by examining whether we need to treat every actinic keratosis and basal cell carcinoma aggressively, or whether...
info_outlineGeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Eric and I were delighted to be invited to Brazil to give a series of presentations in Sao Paulo at their annual geriatrics meeting. We met people doing important, interesting, and innovative work in Brazil and throughout Latin America. We got the audience to sing along, including (in another talk) the magnificent Brazilian song . For our final talk, a podcast in front of a live conference audience, we asked our 3 guests, Eduardo Ferriolli, Marlon Aliberti, & Edison Iglesias to select a recent article to discuss. We talked about: (selected by Eduardo). What is it? What...
info_outlineThe only certainty in medicine is uncertainty. It touches every aspect of clinical practice, from diagnosis to treatment to prognosis. Despite this, many clinicians view uncertainty as something to tolerate at best or eliminate at worst. But what if we need to rethink and reframe our relationship with uncertainty in medicine?
In this episode, we sit down with Jonathan Ilgen and Gurpreet Dhaliwal, co-authors of the New England Journal of Medicine article, “Educational Strategies to Prepare Trainees for Clinical Uncertainty.” Together, we explore the nature of uncertainty in clinical practice, its effects on trainees and seasoned clinicians, and strategies to embrace it as a fundamental part of medical reasoning rather than a regrettable byproduct.
Jonathan and Gurpreet share insights from research and clinical experience, offering practical methods to help trainees and clinicians recognize, manage, and even embrace uncertainty. Key topics we discuss include:
-
The paradoxical nature of uncertainty: When perceived as a threat, it can provoke anxiety or fear; yet when framed as an opportunity, it can inspire hope and optimism.
-
Why uncertainty is inevitable in medical practice and its impact on clinicians.
-
Is uncertainty a state or a trait?
-
The distinction between epistemic uncertainty (knowledge gaps) and aleatoric uncertainty (randomness in outcomes).
-
How experienced clinicians utilize strategies such as forward planning and monitoring to navigate uncertainty.
-
Communicating uncertainty with patients: how to do it effectively without eroding trust.
-
How to integrate uncertainty into medical education.
During the conversation, we explore the emotional responses to uncertainty and how these reactions can influence clinical practice and decision-making.
Importantly, Jonathan and Gurpreet emphasize the importance of openly communicating uncertainty with colleagues, supervisors, and patients—a practice that, contrary to common belief, actually strengthens trust, fosters transparency, and encourages collaboration. By normalizing and embracing uncertainty, clinicians can better manage the complexities of medicine and build confidence in their ability to care for patients in the face of the unknown.
👉 We're thrilled that Meg Wallhagen, Professor of Nursing at UCSF, has recorded an intro to this week's podcast. Any listener who contributes $1000+ is invited to record an intro to a GeriPal podcast! You can donate here, any amount is appreciated. Also, Meg is looking for practicing or student clinicians (physicians and nurses) who are willing to participate in a study on how a simulation of hearing loss promotes a greater appreciation of the experience of hearing loss. Participation should take no more than one to one and one half hour and you will receive a gift card in acknowledgement of your time. If interested, please contact her directly at meg.wallhagen@ucsf.edu.
For more info, click the following link to open the flyer (PDF format): Information_Flyer_Practitioneer
** NOTE: To claim CME credit for this episode, click here **