Episode #36: Teens and Teeth with Dr. Greg Guymon

Show Notes:

Speaker 1: (00:00)
Hey everybody, what's going on? Dr. Chad Woolner here and Dr. Buddy Allen. And this is episode 36 of the health fundamentals podcast. And on today's episode, we have a special guest with us, our good friend, dr Greg Gaiman, and we're going to be talking teens and teeth. So let's get started.

Speaker 2: (00:15)
You're listening to the health fundamentals podcast. I'm Dr. Chad Woolner and I'm Dr. buddy Allen. And this show was about giving you the simple but powerful cutting edge tools you need to change your health and your life. So sit back and enjoy the show as we show you the path to your best life down to a science.

Speaker 1: (00:34)
All right, everybody. So on today's episode we brought in a, a good friend of ours, dr Greg Gaiman, the one the only, he is a legend here in our area. Um, in fact, which is really funny, we were just talking before the podcast started. Um, I actually knew Greg Gaiman through, uh, we have a local water slide park here and his name is everywhere. He's got all these, like, uh, all the inner tubes, have his brand and logo on it for his, for his orthodontic business. And how long have you been doing that for?

Speaker 3: (01:05)
We've worked with them, actually. I treated the director of marketing a daughter, got to know her as she at one point worked for the news and then she moved over there. And so it's been 15 years, a long time, almost when they started. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy.

Speaker 1: (01:22)
So, um, so yeah, for, for, for those of us who are, uh, for those who are watching, uh, just give us a quick kind of introduction about what, uh, what got you into orthodontics in the first place, how long you've been here in the Valley, kind of a quick snapshot of who you are.

Speaker 3: (01:36)
Yeah, so I've been in the Valley actually 22 years as of last month. So I've been doing this for a long time. And when I got here, Eagle road was a two lane road, which is, uh, you know, that's crazy. It is crazy rounded. And, um, at that time, uh, there was one part time orthodontist in Meridian and uh, I came in and said, Hey, it looks like there's room, I'm going to do this. And so I jumped in, uh, full speed ahead and, uh, it's been an amazing journey unless I'm around 25 other orthodontists and followed your, your eyes, your example. I'm the only one, there's quite a few of us. And now you've got adults raised adults from that time on. Crazy. Yeah. So I'm a actually a son of a dentist, like a curse word as son of a dentist. Um, and grew up always thinking I was going to take over my dad's practice in Southern California and I used to, I was the only kid that would go in there and actually watch him do things and watch him do extractions and stick my head in there and Hey, can I watch this and let me see dad.

Speaker 3: (02:43)
So I, by the age of eight, I wrote in my journal, I am going to be a dentist like my dad and I'm the youngest of the three sons. And so interestingly enough, I was the one who followed through and decided I was going to be a dentist. I'm sure other brothers become anything. So no, not they. They never, they always knew they weren't going to be. Yeah. My dad, you know, my dad came home happy. He had Fridays off. He enjoyed his work. It wasn't complaining about his job every day, never had job insecurity issues. And I just, I think that in my head from very early on, it was kind of like, Hey, my dad's got kind of a cool gig. He's his own boss and he can, he can afford things and we can take trips and things. And, you know, I don't, I never felt like I was from a wealthy background or anything, but I certainly felt like we, my dad made sufficient for, right.

Speaker 3: (03:32)
So anyway, well, you know, I, I thought I was going to be a dentist, went to school in San Francisco for my dental school and, um, started seeing things in Southern California that I thought, I'm not sure I want to raise a family here. And, um, you know, having moved away for long enough, I realized that there was a life outside of Southern California, which I never thought, I thought it was kinda like the sun and everything revolved around it. And uh, so I'm starting at my dental school. I started driving the Western United States saying I'm going to practice somewhere else and I'm going to be an orthodontist and reason I'm an orthodontist is I had an uncle that was an orthodontist and my dad early on said, son, you know, this orthodontic stuff is pretty interesting and, and so I kind of in my head said, I think that's in the background and maybe a possibility.

Speaker 3: (04:18)
But then when I got to dental school they told me, uh, there's only about a, a less than 10% of the students that want to get into ortho school get into ortho school. So I might go highly competitive, highly, highly competitive, super competitive. So I knew right away that I was going to be in the, have to be in the top 10% of my class. So I, out of 80 80 students I was going to be off to be top eight and that kind of set the bar really hard and which made me a little nervous to say I'm going to be an orthodontist or nothing because there was a possibility I was nothing. And I had went to a really sharp dental school with, you know, it was a hard school to get into as it was. So I thought I'd had this great barrier and I look around, I'm like, dude, I think I'm in the bottom 10% in intelligence level.

Speaker 3: (05:01)
And so, you know, I just had to work extra hard and sorry, grounded out. But anyway, while I was in dental school, along with that, knowing that I wasn't going to be in Southern California, I started driving the Western United States and just trying to, you know, my wife and I kind of created a list of what we considered utopia, what it, what it would look like. And, and we drove a lot of places and a lot of places did not look like the utopia we had on our list. I didn't have any family in Idaho, uh, at the time and drove through here and there's just something that grabbed me and I'm like, this is pretty cool. I think I could do this. And, um, and, and it's not very smart to start a practice from scratch. Uh, it's much better to buy an existing business, at least from our standpoint.

Speaker 3: (05:45)
I don't know how it is with you guys, but Oh, sure. Cash cashflows. Absolutely. And there was nobody even interested in selling and in fact that, you know, have met a few orthodontist in town and some of them wouldn't even meet with me. And they were, you know, dude, we don't want another competitor here. And others made it very clear that I would be broke if I moved to town. And I just said, you know, maybe broke, but I might be happy. So, so, um, yeah, we decided to open our doors just right across the street from where I currently am. I'm 22 years ago. Wow. And, uh, it's been, it's been an amazing ride. Uh, never, never in my highest expectations, dreams or goals. Did I ever think that that practicing orthodontics was going to be like, it was the way it is for me.

Speaker 1: (06:32)
W w what do you mean by that? As far as like what did you think in terms of,

Speaker 3: (06:36)
you know, I had a, I had a vision of what financially, you know, was going to be enough and sufficient for my needs and I didn't have those high needs and I don't, I still don't tell you the truth. And, um, so, you know, from that standpoint, I was like, you know, if I, if I make this number and I can pay my bills and pay my student loans, uh, and I can take a vacation a couple times a year, that's, that's perfect. What more could you want? And, um, you know, it's far exceeded data, the cause, even just the size of the practice and the, yeah.

Speaker 1: (07:11)
Well, and for those who don't live in this area, what we call the treasure Valley, which is Boise and all of the pretty much surrounding, uh, cities and towns, um, you'd be hard pressed to if, if looking for an orthodontist not come across dr Gaiman, his, his, uh, his practice is probably be number one practice here in the area in terms of brand recognition, in terms of he just everywhere. You can't go anywhere and not see, uh, and he maintains a stellar reputation. Um, that's something he works really hard for. I've known, you know, like I said, I knew of dr Gaiman and Gaiman Orthodox long before we met. Uh, we go to church together now and, uh, so he's kind of a in that realm, kind of a local celebrity in that sense. And we kind of selfishly wanted him here on the podcast for that reason.

Speaker 1: (07:59)
I'll, you know, truth be told, we told him, you know, you're, you're kind of a legend in that sense. But, um, so, so in terms of orthodontics, you know, for, for those watching, what would you say are some things that might, uh, surprise people in terms of things you see that orthodontics helps with? Cause I think most people from a superficial level get it that yet orthodontics is much, you straighten your teeth, you know, kind of like they think of chiropractic in the sense that chiropractic is for your back, you know, which it's true, but obviously there's a lot more to it than that. And I'm, I'm confident that with orthodontics it's the same. So what would you say, uh, number one are some of the things that might surprise them? Number two, the other kind of followup question to that is, what are some things that you love seeing and treating and helping people with? Like things that just make you love being an orthodontist?

Speaker 3: (08:47)
You know, I guess I'm, one of the first surprising things that was a surprise to me is when I first became interested in how long it even to become an orthodontist. Um, you know, I went to school for four years of undergrad, four years of dental school, and then basically three years of orthodontic training. Yeah. That's a ton of ton of school. Yeah. It was a long time. I did a 20, 22nd grade, something like that, graduated from 22nd grade. So it took a long time to do what I wanted to do. It's not a super simple just, Oh, we just throw on some braces and teeth straightened out and that's how it happens. And it's just so easy. And so, so orthodontics just doesn't, it doesn't just happen and you don't go to an overnight school or a weekend school and become an orthodontist first of all.

Speaker 3: (09:31)
So that might be a surprise that it's, it's a little more, there's, there's, it's a little more rigorous. The training efficient amount of training. Yeah. As far as the orthodontics itself, you know, when people think of orthodontics, they think two years and it's going to be painful and really expensive. That's what people think of orthodontics. And you know, I, I think, um, we recently looked back, I did a look back on our, our past 100 patients that we had completed and we realized that we had averaged 16 months as our average treatment time, which is very short, much shorter than the national average. Um, those patients averaged less than a, it was, uh, 12 to 13 visits on average, so they weren't coming to our office all the time. And then from a discomfort standpoint, I think orthodontics, we use lighter forces, we use more continuous forces, um, with the new new materials and techniques that's made it a little more comfortable.

Speaker 3: (10:27)
Do braces are braces uncomfortable? Absolutely. They are a little bit uncomfortable at first five days I tell you, you're going to be eaten, you know, so Nana soup, soup, mashed potatoes and bananas and yogurt. Nope. Mail and applesauce. Yeah. So there's still some soreness but, but, but I think the shortness of treatment is surprising. And, and, um, you know, our adults in particular who have this concern about straightening their teeth. Um, there's cases that we often do that are six or six or eight months of orthodontics and they get this amazing result and they're like, Oh my gosh, if I would've known this, I'd have done it. You know, I have a question now. Straightening teeth is one thing, but does, are, you know, when you're getting your teeth moved around, does it help with TMJ type issues? Sure. So orthodontics is, you know, it's way more than just, you know, straight teeth.

Speaker 3: (11:15)
It's, it's so much more. And that's, that's, I guess one of the other things that this leads to is that we're not just talking about making beautiful smiles, you know, if the teeth function properly, sometimes people with TMJ or temporomandibular joint disorder, you know, everybody kind of has had popping and clicking or pain in their joint. Uh, it's, that's a, that's a phenomenon that's found in over 50% of the population. We can alleviate that in, eh, a certain percentage of those cases, not all of them. Um, along with that, when we make teeth fit together better, they function better. Um, the difference between someone that functions with a proper bite and the way they chew and eat and break up their food and digest is incredible compared to somebody who's teeth. Don't you see it affecting people with headaches at all? So there's no migraines and TMJ kind of go together. Right. Um, a lot of times those trigger factors are, are related to the joint, uh, directly, so. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: (12:12)
And I'm curious too, do you notice anything in terms of improvement with sleep after somebody has had a, you know, a course of care?

Speaker 3: (12:19)
So I, I'm a little hesitant to discuss what we can and can't do with [inaudible] because they're making no claims here. It's just my concern is that there's a lot of, um, Hocus Pocus and, and snake oil being sold out there. And I don't, that's, that's not my thing, but yeah. But here's the deal. So sleep disordered breathing affects a huge percentage of the population. Uh, you know, 40% of the population could benefit from a CPAP. I mean, if we put everybody on a sleep study, 40% would actually have some level of sleep diff disorder. Uh, or yeah, sleep disorder breathing and it's related to airway. Um, and uh, airway is, it's, it's um, multifactorial taught. One of the factors is the, of course the size and volume of the airway. And we do things all the time like rapid palatal expanders where we actually increase the size of the pallet, which also increases the nasal, the volume, decreases the airflow resistance.

Speaker 3: (13:21)
And we, I have routinely seen young kids, you know, six, seven and eight that we put these in these expanders convert from bringing a mouth breather with their mouth hanging open to being a nose breather. And as soon as you convert from being a mouth breather to a nose breather, your tongue repositions in a different place and therefore it reshapes the palette. And I can literally say that, you know, once we fix a, uh, pallet property in the tongue, goes to the right position, uh, stabilizes the bite. It changes the way they breathe and it actually changes their facial growth.

Speaker 1: (13:54)
He changed, he changed their life, I mean, the trajectory of their life. How, how, how satisfying and fulfilling must that feel to you to see that like right in front of you. Like literally, like you've basically put them in a fork in the road and you've completely changed. I mean, and I think maybe that's a good segue too in terms of this, you know, cause cause here we're talking about all these like cool mechanical and or biomechanical things, but we can't dismiss the impact that changing, uh, you know, the, the, the alignment of, of people's teeth and changing their smile can have, uh, psychologically on, on people, teens and adults alike. Um, in terms of their, you know, development in terms of socially that, that and that impact that has. So, so maybe share with those listening or watching maybe some of the experiences and, or your perspective on that in terms of teens and development socially, you know, uh, the impact of, of straight teeth and smile psychologically. Yeah. Anything like

Speaker 3: (14:52)
that. So we have a tagline, you know, that you just kind of pulled, uh, but it's, um, better smiles, brighter futures. And that's so true in so many ways. Absolutely. We were talking earlier and there have been study after study that have said, you know, what's the number one thing you notice when you meet a new person? What's the number one person you know, or number one thing you've noticed stands out. Yeah, that stands out. And the smile is always in the top two things. They're the way their teeth look and you know, whether you like it or hate it. In our society, we judge people by the way they look and, and you know, maybe that's all it is. We judge books by their covers. Unfortunately superficial, but, but you can't fight it. It's what it is. And, uh, therefore I, I absolutely, if you can make someone look better, they're judged differently.

Speaker 3: (15:43)
They're, there's been studies of what, uh, you know, second grade, third grade teachers, how they judge their students and who's the brightest? Just you give them a whole pile of pictures and say, okay, here's, here's 20 pictures of your future students. Tell me what you think of each of these. And kids with crazy looking teeth, goofy looking teeth, uh, they end up being judged as this kid's going to be dumb. This kid's not as bright Gary. And so they get put in this box of they're not as bright. I mean, it's not just not, they're not as cute. They're not as bright. And they've done studies that I'm aware of where they'll, they'll, they'll tell the teachers ahead of time where they'll mix students up and they'll put them in and they'll let P P, you know, they'll deliberately save kids that underperform on tests.

Speaker 3: (16:24)
Absolutely. They'll flip it and they'll say, this kid Johnny, he's exceptionally brilliant. Watch what happens. And then it completely changes his. So the influence or the bias that a teacher has can have such a huge implication, uh, in, in terms of that. So that's, yeah, that's kinda crazy. Here's another crazy study. You can put a baby in front of pictures and you run by pictures of, uh, of, of different people, people's faces in front of a baby, an infant and a baby. We'll spend more time looking at attractive faces and you put an unattractive face. And it doesn't hold their attention. They literally look away. And so it's so, it's ingrained in us. So it's not just society, it's not just the media, it's not just movies and entertainment. It's, it's ingrained in us. We like to look at pleasing and attractive and symmetrical things and that's what we're trying to do.

Speaker 3: (17:10)
Right. The cool thing about, you know, way back in the day, having braces was like for a kid was a terrifying thought because matter was head gear on some cases and had head gear as a kid. There was some crazy and now with, with Invisalign and different, the different products that are out there now, it's amazing. Yeah, no, the, the, the days of, you know, the Willy Wonka, the crazy stuff on his teeth, those are gone. Our braces are so much smaller. We'd, you know, we, we'd offer, for example, we offer clear braces, transparent braces, that no additional charge that you can be five feet away and you wouldn't even know the person was wearing them. And then of course, about 20 20% of our patients are choosing Invisalign clear liners, especially our adults that are really into that. Another thing that you said that's different from long time ago, that you know, this, the stigma of orthodontics being too expensive and not being able to afford it.

Speaker 3: (18:01)
Uh, you know, back in the night I talked to a professor that when I was back in school and he said, he would told me a story that I'll, I just sticks in my head and he said, you know, I started a orthodontics in 1972 he said, as isn't me, by the way, I'm not that old in 1972 and braces or the same cost as a Volkswagen bug. Wow. So, you know, and he's like, you know, Volkswagen bugs weren't the most expensive car, but they weren't the cheapest car. There were the same costs of Volkswagen bug. And he said, today, comparatively, braces are cheap. Prices used to be only for the rich back in [inaudible].

Speaker 1: (18:34)
Sure. Well, I think if you get nothing else from that comparison or that, that kind of, uh, you know, point of reference is that braces have not increased in terms of inflation or whatever. Yeah. While while everything else has, has continued to grow in terms of expense and everything, um, you know, talking about this kind of evolution of things, how things have changed in one on one of the things that you'd have to be blind not to see. That's a real common trend that we're seeing a lot these days is more and more companies out there are attempting to cut out of the picture expertise, uh, and, and braces. I think to a certain extent have kind of taken a lot of the brunt of this in the sense that most people who are listening or watching this have probably seen ads for various new companies that are letting you know that you no longer need an orthodontist. That you can diagnose yourself or that you can do some sort of an impression. You bite on this thing, send it in, and then their company will basically create the care plan for you and send you the tray full of everything you need or whatever. What's your, what's your kind of take on that? Because I know my opinion on that obviously.

Speaker 3: (19:42)
Well, I, you know, this may sound self-serving, but I'm going to, by the time I'm done, hopefully people understand where I come from and the place that I come from. And that is that, you know, I, I mentioned earlier that I spent, uh, you know, 22 years of schooling and specifically I did three years of specializing in orthodontics to do what I do. That doesn't happen overnight. Right? And you don't replace that with a, you know, a do it yourself kit. And so you know, that that's, it's really scary to me because there's a lot of things that can go wrong in orthodontics. Only thing that can go right in orthodontics is the teeth get straighter and everything else can go wrong. I mean, it's scary. And so to think that someone is handed a, you know, a piece of plastic that they stick in their mouth to make a sort of impression of their teeth and then supposedly, supposedly there's going to be a professional that puts the teeth in the right place and then the aligners are created and then they're mailed the person's house and they stick them in and you hope it works

Speaker 1: (20:43)
well. There's something to be said for seeing the person face to face versus just an impression of my teeth. I think there's, yeah,

Speaker 3: (20:49)
there's so many more pieces to a clinical exam than the YouTube. And here's another thing that they're not even, they weren't even required to take an X Ray, so you couldn't look at the health of the bone or the gums. And there have definitely been some, some negative side effects that are appearing. And just last month, a state of California banned this DIY orthodontics, um, from happening in that state without a certain level of records that are required from every other person doing orthodontics, which, why would they be? Why would they be, have to follow a different set of rules. But, uh, their attorneys are very aggressive, very aggressive defending them. Here's a, here's an interesting thing that people should know that are considering DIY orthodontics. When you sign with one of these companies though the larger of the companies, you actually have to sign a nondisclosure agreement, an NDA that says that you will not disclose the contents of what you're signing. And in your signing you also sign away your rights to Sue that company. So not only are you giving up your, your patient rights that every single healthcare provider has to, you know, provides for their patients. But you also signed nondisclosure that you won't tell anybody that you signed away your rights when you started.

Speaker 1: (22:07)
So, so it's a great business model.

Speaker 3: (22:11)
The aggressiveness of this company when somebody goes out to negative, you know, negatively review them is they, they send out legal letters on a daily basis.

Speaker 1: (22:21)
Wow. Well, so I mean that's kinda crazy because to put that in perspective so that people can kind of understand that would be like if you were to come to me as a patient at align integrated medical and we had you sign a form that says if we hurt you for some reason, which we don't hurt people by the way, but if for some reason something went wrong where we did something malpractice, right? Because we all have malpractice insurance, right? That you have no recourse and, and that and that. And also on top of that one more layer of prediction. You can't tell anybody that you signed this. Like that's crazy. That's crazy. That is crazy. Don't believe this. Yeah. Guarantee 100% yeah, that's crazy. So I mean, at the end of the day, I think the old adage rings very true in this, that you get what you pay for.

Speaker 1: (23:07)
You know, at the end of the day I've said this and I get, I acknowledged full well that we're kind of on the same level in terms of our bias in the sense that the years that we spend in our training means something to not only us, but that should mean something else to the public. Look, I acknowledge readily and I'm confident you're on the same page with me too, that in this day and age we live in the information agent. So information is readily accessible to everyone and so we should be prepared as professionals to be able to answer tough questions. I saw a YouTube, I could do braces, right? Right. I watched you two but, but at the same token, but at the same token, acknowledge and appreciate and value legitimate expertise that is out there because there's something to be said for that. Be going to a trusted expert because you're not just paying for the result, although you certainly are paying for the result. What you're also paying for is the confidence along the way of knowing that you have an expert to lean on, you know, along the way. And, and, and really, truly there's, there's great peace of mind and my guess is in your 22 years of practice, you've probably fielded numerous phone calls from concerned parents along the way in terms of this just happened with little Johnny's braces. Uh, what should we do? You know, and it's, and for an expert, it's a real simple question. [inaudible]

Speaker 3: (24:23)
well, answer, you can handle it, things can go wrong and things do go wrong, right? I'd love to tell you that every single one, I price it patients go smoothly, exactly how I planned, but guess what? I at least know how to address the problems and fix them and solve them and get them right. I had a years ago when I first graduated high school, I worked in the construction field if all I was going to college and I remember talking to one of the journeymen that I was learning from and he said something to me that has stuck with me my whole life. He says, the only difference between a journeyman and an apprentice is a journeyman knows how to fix any mistakes. And I'm like, and that kind of what you're saying is stuff happens, you know, and knowing how to, to, you know, fix that and make it at the end result. The correct result is it means everything.

Speaker 1: (25:07)
Yeah. Well, dr gamma, we appreciate your time here, dr Gaiman. You're amazing. We, uh, we love what you do here for our community and, uh, we're, uh, we're excited to continue obviously a long great relationship with you. Uh, in fact, I think one of my daughters is going to be starting braces with you in the not too, uh, not too distant future here. Um, for those who are watching, who do live here in the treasure Valley and have questions about orthodontics, about braces, about all things in that realm, how can they get ahold of you? What would be the easiest way?

Speaker 3: (25:37)
You know, we're, um, you can find a [inaudible] by calling our office. Uh, that's easiest to way, way eight, eight nine eight zero, zero, zero, zero.

Speaker 1: (25:46)
And we'll make sure we put all the links here. Um, you guys are on Facebook, you're on Instagram,

Speaker 3: (25:50)
we're on Instagram. Um, you can text that number, you can call that number. Um, you know, uh, visit our website. You can schedule your appointment online now. Um, we've just made it really easy, accessible, and, um, you know, affordable treatment

Speaker 1: (26:06)
and quick snapshot. What can people expect when they come into your office? First visit, what would, what will basically take place? Let's say that I'm apprehensive. I'm like, I'm kind of scared of what, you know, venturing and I bring my kid in or myself in and we sit down. What happened?

Speaker 3: (26:19)
Perfect. So our, our first exam is free. We charge nothing for it. So, um, we take out as many barriers as we can. Um, we spend about 40 minutes basically talking to you about what specifically you would like to see happen, what your concerns are. We take an X Ray so we can analyze the, the roots and bone structure. And then we just talk about here, here's your options. And, uh, oftentimes one of the things that's, that's new

Speaker 1: (26:44)
to us is that, uh, a lot of patients come in wanting to do something. We, we get them started that same day. If they're ready for treatment and they want to go, we don't make them schedule a second visit and have to go back and take off more time off of work. We try to make things as convenient as possible and we're just lowered the barrier of entry for orthodontics. So that's huge. Awesome. It makes it, yeah, makes it easy. And I think any more these days, cost is only half the equation in terms of convenience. Convenience is huge too. We noticed that too. That's why those DIY companies are so appealing. It seems so great. I can do it for my own home. Please visit an orthodontist if not me. Visited North. Well, my dad raised me. My parents were both very wonderfully pragmatic people. And one of the most common sayings that my dad kind of tried to pound into me as a kid early on is if it sounds too good to be true, it more often than not usually is, you know, and I've learned that the hard way in my own life to find that my dad's wisdom was, was uh, you know, he, he, he was correct.

Speaker 1: (27:47)
You know, most of the time. And that's the case. And so again, the appeal, you know, uh, my friend, uh, who used to run the Allstate agency next door to us, um, he had a saying that said that the appeal or the, or the good fee, it was something to the effect of, uh, the appeal of a cheap insurance policy fades quickly when you, when you, when your first claim is made or whatever like that, you know, that, you know, that whole idea that, you know, you know, people that think that they got a great deal, that that fades really, really quick. And we, we've said all along, uh, you know, the most expensive option is the one that doesn't work at the end of the day because it's just wasted money. That's a great, I like that. Do you see a significant portion of people, I mean, not to continue to hammer on the our way, but you see a significant portion of people who have tried that option and now it's like, okay, I gotta get this taken care of.

Speaker 1: (28:38)
I have, and I've corrected more than more than a handful. And they're always embarrassed and you know, Hey, we've all made some bad choices and we've always looked for a good, we, all of us have looked for a good deal and ended up if I, now that's not human nature. So I think there's a good point to kind of, I think that's a really good point to end on even too with dr Gaiman, is that if you're in that boat and you might feel a little sheepish, especially after listening to this episode of the podcast, like he's not gonna make you feel stupid. You know, we don't, we don't send you through a repentance process or anything like that. Right. We just make it right. I don't want to beat up anybody. I just want them to be happy with their smile. Yeah. That's really what we're all about. That's awesome. And what was the, what was the saying again? Your guys' motto or saying better smiles. Brighter futures. Better smiles. Brighter futures. That's awesome. Maybe that should be this true. It's a good note to end on. Yeah. Well, dr Gavin, we know you're a busy guy and so we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be here with us, uh, on this podcast. So thanks. Thanks a ton and uh, yeah, appreciate you being here with us. Thanks for having me guys every day. Absolutely.

Speaker 4: (29:42)
Absolutely. All right guys, we'll talk to you later on the next episode. Have a good one.

Speaker 2: (29:46)
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