Is Slow Business More Humane?

In this new episode titled "Is Slow Business More Humane," we discover the world of slow business with Andy Mort, a Slow Business Coach, songwriter, and sound artist.

This conversation challenges the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in today's business world, offering a refreshing perspective on how entrepreneurs can incorporate spaciousness and human connection into their work.

It’s the first of a series ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics'

So in this first episode of the series of ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics' we discussed:

• How Andy became a Slow Business Coach
• The relationship between inner peace, slowness, and its impact on clients and the community.
• The connection between spaciousness, innovation, and creativity in business.
• The contrast between the slow approach and the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in business.
• The importance of human connection in business interactions, especially in the context of sales and client relationships.
• Practical first steps for entrepreneurs to incorporate more spaciousness in their life and business.
• and so much more

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Is Slow Business More Humane?

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Sarah Santacroce: Andy. It's so good to see you again and have you on the humane marketing podcast welcome back.

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Andy Mort: Thank you so much. It is lovely to be with you again, Sarah. I love talking to you so.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: About this? Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: We always have great and deep conversations, and so I couldn't think of a better person than you to talk about this concept of

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Sarah Santacroce: slowing things down, and the question whether a slow business is a humane business and what all of that involves. So

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Sarah Santacroce: it's good to have you here. Why don't you explain a little bit how you got into this concept of being a slow business coach? It's been a few years now. And yeah, how has this evolved for you? And how does it

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Sarah Santacroce: feel in in your business? And how do people react to it? So explain it a little bit.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I didn't

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Andy Mort: necessarily set out to to do or to be. It's just something that has evolved really

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Andy Mort: over time of like working with people. And I've always worked with

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Andy Mort: introverted and highly sensitive people. So those who.

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Andy Mort: I guess, find the the pace of modern life, maybe a bit overstimulating at times.

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Andy Mort: And so there's been like this necessity of of slowness

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Andy Mort: for the sake of people's nervous systems. And you know, just being able to

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Andy Mort: focus and get clear on. You know what's important and what isn't, and all of that kind of thing.

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Andy Mort: But also there's been this, I guess increasing awareness in me that this is really

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Andy Mort: bad for all of us, and this whole mentality of.

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Andy Mort: you know, move fast and break things which has come from this sort of tech world and

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Andy Mort: has a is an appropriate tool in many situations in that world. But it, it seems to have

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Andy Mort: kind of permeated everything. And so there's this very reactive energy that I just feel in the world

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Andy Mort: around me. And that kind of comes into me. And it's in people. And this needs to be productive. And all of these words that you know you

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Andy Mort: obviously use a lot. And you're sort of rebelling against in many ways in what you do.

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Andy Mort: yeah. And so I guess what I do is is help people identify, you know. Where is that energy

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Andy Mort: taking me away from what I want to be doing and who I am, and

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Andy Mort: the impact that I might want to have with my work or in my family in my relationship.

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Andy Mort: whatever it might be. And then to yeah, put into practice ways of

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Andy Mort: yeah, slowing, slowing down and making space

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Andy Mort: for the important things, and to

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Andy Mort: make space to do the things that matter more slowly as well. And this, yeah, this twist on the old productivity thing of like do more in less time. I think I love the idea of

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Andy Mort: doing doing less more slowly, because it allows you to go

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Andy Mort: deep. And it allows you to.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, get into the

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Andy Mort: the depths of it and the richness of it, and to do what what you feel

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Andy Mort: is important and that kind of thing. So.

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Andy Mort: Yes. So I have a community that yeah, my haven community is the real hub of of what I do.

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Andy Mort: So yeah, kind of coaching and group.

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Andy Mort: I'd say workshops. It's not really workshops. It's more sort of spaces to gather and to explore together.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, everything kind of flows out from there.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, that's so good to hear, because it it means already that you're not just. You know, the crazy one who came up with this term, and people are like, what is he smoking? It really shows. No, there's people who resonate with that. And and you know they want to be in community with others that want to look at business more slowly. And

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Sarah Santacroce: I love what you said. It's it's not just slowing things down, but doing less

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Sarah Santacroce: and doing those things even more slowly. So it's really the doing. Less part, I guess, has to do with creating the spaciousness for other things as well. And that's kind of what I talk about in the business. Like we're human book. It's it's not just this.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, creating spaciousness to then like back in the days, you know, the 4 h work week kind of approach where? Where? You then, just, you know, spend your money by sitting on a beach somewhere in the Philippines.

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Sarah Santacroce: It really is creating spaciousness to be more human, to have the time to reconnect with humans or with nature, or to become an activist, or, you know, like spaciousness outside of your business, so that

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Sarah Santacroce: you can do the things a human wants to do and and find that

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Sarah Santacroce: I think almost like if we don't create that spaciousness, we don't remember what as humans, we could also do instead of just working.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: What does that bring up for you.

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Andy Mort: I mean, and I and I think what you

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Andy Mort: emphasize and do so well as well is is integrating that spaciousness and slowness into the into the model of how you do business. And I think that feels like you think about the 4 h work week. There's almost this separation.

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Andy Mort: Between the work you

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Andy Mort: like. Plough everything into this part of your life, so that then you can do this over here.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Andy Mort: And

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Andy Mort: while I think you know you, you obviously want space around work and not to be working all the time.

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Andy Mort: Actually, there's something that you can bring into the work that you do do, and the business that you're building

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Andy Mort: that puts that spaciousness and the the approach of slowness and marketing like you're human into that thing itself as well. So that

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Andy Mort: there's a yeah, you're bringing the whole of you to the whole of what you do.

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Andy Mort: And so, yeah, that kind of when you were just saying that

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Andy Mort: kind of brought that up for me and and them the modelling of a different way of

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Andy Mort: doing the business itself, and thinking about business, and thinking about what

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Andy Mort: what your business is enabling, both in terms of what you're maybe producing, or the service that you're offering, but also in the lives and the model that you're setting, and the example that you're setting to those who do business with you, and how that can become a contagious thing that

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Andy Mort: that spreads. And yeah, that sense of

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Andy Mort: of slowness or spaciousness or stillness that people might take away from an encounter with you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Andy Mort: Then goes out into the world. And I think, as I was saying before, there's like that other energy that I feel very strongly at the moment where that sort of hustle grind culture like, and the 4 h work week, you know, do things. Really, it doesn't matter what you do, but just make money so that you can

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Andy Mort: then go off and do your own thing, or whatever

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Andy Mort: like that. That's a very palpable stress energy that

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Andy Mort: I think also is contagious, and spreads and leaves us feeling a bit.

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Andy Mort: I don't know. Pulled in all sorts of different directions.

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Andy Mort: overwhelmed, burning out all of those things.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think it's kind of part of the old business model where we are working ourselves.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, to exhaustion, and we were working so hard, and we. And then we hear this idea of working less. And so we squeeze even more into maybe less time. And then, obviously, we're so exhausted that we then need

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Sarah Santacroce: that rest. But that's not what to me a business like we're human. Looks like it is like you said so. Well, building the slowness and the spaciousness into the business, so that I don't feel exhausted. And then.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, just need to lie on the beach. I still want to be able to have the energy to use my time, that I created the space that I created for for other things, whether it be yes, to, you know, refill my own battery by being in nature, but also by giving back. I think that to me is an important part. Is

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Sarah Santacroce: we talked just before we started to recording. And and I said, like business as usual is.

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm so tired of that concept because it really is the time where business should not be as usual anymore. And we do have, you know, kind of this responsibility also as entrepreneurs to yeah, to find solutions to come up with creative ideas on how we can.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, make this world a better place for lack of better words. But that that's really what this is about. So I think.

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Sarah Santacroce: would you agree that the innovation and the creativity also needs that space?

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Sarah Santacroce: What have you seen with your community? What.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, absolutely. And I love making space for collaborative

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Andy Mort: innovation and creativity as well. And

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Andy Mort: seeing what emerges. So one of the things that we do is

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Andy Mort: what I call a phrase maze where we just take we have a monthly theme.

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Andy Mort: So this month we're recording this in February. Our monthly theme is confidence. It's a very, very broad

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Andy Mort: theme. And then can I break that down into

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Andy Mort: you know what? What are some phrases or idioms, or quotes or ideas associated with confidence that come to mind.

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Andy Mort: and then kind of take them, break them down a bit, try and play with them and talk about, you know.

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Andy Mort: Okay, what does that bring up for you that's going on in your life at the moment. And

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Andy Mort: those kinds of things.

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Andy Mort: And then how can we maybe play with this creatively? Is there a is there a poem in this? Is there some kind of

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Andy Mort: painting, or a song, or whatever that you could just

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Andy Mort: have a go with the yeah playing with experimenting with, and

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Andy Mort: both in the discussions that we have, and then the sort of follow up creative expression.

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Andy Mort: You just see things that you would never be able to

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Andy Mort: imagine coming up from the outset. And I love this sort of experimental approach to life in general, but like

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Andy Mort: trusting, trusting the hive, trusting the collaborative potential.

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Andy Mort: the and when you talk about, you know, solutions to issues and the importance of business

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Andy Mort: being involved in looking at the the wider picture of how the world is right now, and thinking, you know, what role do we play in

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Andy Mort: changing the direction that we're maybe moving in or

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Andy Mort: creating a better future, or whatever it is.

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Andy Mort: Actually, I think, collaboration working with

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Andy Mort: one another as partners, whatever that looks like, whether that's a business partnership or just socially doing stuff together

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Andy Mort: with a within values and with a vision, or whatever it is

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Andy Mort: that's so important. And again that turns business as usual on its head, because.

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Andy Mort: you know, seeing it won't mention who it is. But like the there's something going on at the moment that I'm looking into that

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Andy Mort: is a. It's this extraction that business people have to see

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Andy Mort: like the old way is seeing opportunities, being opportunistic and thinking, how can I capitalize on that and turn it back to me and make money from it?

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Andy Mort: Rather than how can I

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Andy Mort: be part of this movement. How can I, you know, contribute to this? What what does it need from me in order for this thing that I

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Andy Mort: connect with and believe in? Maybe it's an idea, or like a social movement, or whatever.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, what role can I take in that? That

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Andy Mort: makes me part of it rather than makes me possess it.

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Andy Mort: And I think that it's yeah, really important to start seeing business

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Andy Mort: through that eye through those eyes as well.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, if that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up collaboration. And and this movement from we me to we that I mentioned in the in the book as well is kind of like.

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Sarah Santacroce: it's so aligned with slowing things down, because in order to collaborate, you do need to

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Sarah Santacroce: slow things down and actually let relationships develop right? Because the old way. And I'm definitely raising my hand here. The old way was affiliate marketing. That was like the big thing. And it was like, Oh, we are collaborating, but we weren't really collaborating, because we were just trying to

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Sarah Santacroce: tap into each other's reach to get more money for each of us, right? And and yeah, that's just that's just not human humane, whatever ethical even be.

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Sarah Santacroce: So in order to actually.

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, create and nurture these relationships. Well, you need time. You, you know, an email exchange is not going to create

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Sarah Santacroce: relationship trust, based relationship. You need to invest the time in it. So that's another thing that is part of the business. But if you don't have the spaciousness to invest there, then it will always be transactional, and you will not actually be able to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know.

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Sarah Santacroce: collaborate or create a movement or create the community because you don't have the time. You're always short on time. And you're always

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah struggling to create more transactions. Really.

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Andy Mort: I think it's such a good point. Yeah, that transactional.

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Andy Mort: because it is yet that affiliate model or the you work with people to combine

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Andy Mort: audiences or whatever it is. But yeah, ultimately, it's a

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Andy Mort: I'll scratch your back. You scratch my back. And yeah.

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Andy Mort: you don't have time, as you say, for like relationships. And you know, anything really

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Andy Mort: valuable at a human level in life takes time.

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Andy Mort: and it takes a lot of that liminal in between space that

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Andy Mort: is not controlled in the sense of being outcome, oriented or like. We've got to achieve this in the time that we are together. It's like, actually, you think about the most meaningful friendships

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Andy Mort: they're full of just time with and just time being.

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Andy Mort: And again, like some of these gatherings that we have.

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Andy Mort: it's and it takes a huge amount of I guess

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Andy Mort: faith in the process, or just allowing almost surrender. Just allowing things. Okay. Whatever is going to come out of this is going to come out of it, and I can't contrive it or control it from the outset. But I can trust that

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Andy Mort: hike.

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Andy Mort: Whatever will be will be here, and where. The more I've experienced doing that.

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Andy Mort: the more surprised I've been, and the more

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Andy Mort: like interesting things have come out of

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Andy Mort: gatherings, or, you know, conversations, or whatever. It is really difficult to

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Andy Mort: to remember that like you're like, right, need an agenda need a structure. And and it's like. Yes, structure can help with

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Andy Mort: keeping things going to a certain degree. But it's like you need to know where

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Andy Mort: planning becomes over planning, and it actually suffocates what might come out of it.

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Sarah Santacroce: I talk about this new business intimacy, and that

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Sarah Santacroce: is that exactly what you're talking about is like, usually in business. We have this way of being, which is very task oriented like, even if we do collaborate. There's, you know, a way to collaborate the old way, which is like, Okay, here's the agenda. Here's what we need to do. It's all about the doing right instead of

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, allowing the time to just be and get to know each other. And and and yeah, that takes courage. I think that's the word came up when you were speaking. I'm like it takes a lot of courage to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know. Bring this new business intimacy where we're all wired to think. Well, business should be this way.

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Sarah Santacroce: Business should be transactional. Business should be professional business should be, you know, a certain way. And so all of a sudden, we come along. And we're like, we're, you know, gonna do things slowly and more relationship based. And and it's just like people are like, what what's going on here. But I think.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think, yeah, that's to me. That's that's a business like, we're human. That is like, we're actually being humans in our business. And it's also more humane to us, because then our business is just an extension of who we are, and as solopreneurs. Isn't that, isn't that what we want right.

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Andy Mort: So, and it speaks to. I always remember something that you said in the workshop that we did a while back, which was

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Andy Mort: just because it works. It doesn't mean it works for you.

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Andy Mort: And I think that's something important

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Andy Mort: when maybe having conversations with people about like, why would you? Why would you set up your business like this? Or why would you approach your business like this? Because actually.

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Andy Mort: business as usual, or these old ways still work to some degree. Or there are these things that work

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Andy Mort: and actually putting in that bit. But it doesn't work for me. There's something about that that. Yeah, it doesn't fit who I am, or what I believe

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Andy Mort: a business should contribute or should be doing in the world.

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Andy Mort: And so I love that little. It's a

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Andy Mort: an invitation to gentle rebelliousness. I think I see it as because.

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Andy Mort: yeah, it allows you to put yourself

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Andy Mort: and your own beliefs and your values and the things that matter to you at the heart of your business rather than being like. What are these strategies and tactics that everyone else is doing

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Andy Mort: that do maybe make a lot of money, or they make bring quick results, or whatever. So. But how do I feel, or how would I feel if I

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Andy Mort: achieved that in that way. And it's like.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: And from past experience I feel a bit icky, and I feel a bit like Oh, that didn't doesn't feel good to have done it like that.

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Andy Mort: So what? What would feel good to me? And you know, to me and to lots of people.

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Andy Mort: that kind of the slowness, the relational yeah, that spaciousness. Actually.

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Andy Mort: how can you make a business work with that at the heart of it? Is the question.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: And to me, like the the 1st 2 books, marketing, like, we're, human and selling, like, we're human were very much about our ideal clients and bringing this, you know, gentleness and humane approach and ethical approach to our ideal clients. And business like we're human, is going to be more about

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Sarah Santacroce: us being in this business and and, like you said yes, finding out what works for us right, and feeling humane, and not exhausted and overwhelmed in our business so that we can actually do our life's work. And I used the peace sign as kind of part of the journey, because the idea is really to

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Sarah Santacroce: find your inner peace so that you can then bring change to the outer world. How do you see the relationship between inner peace and and you know, slowness. What have you seen from from your community, from your clients?

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, is this part of the journey.

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Andy Mort: That's a great question. Yeah,

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Andy Mort: yeah. And I guess I like, I'd like to think in.

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Andy Mort: I guess spirals and circles rather than

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Andy Mort: straight lines, and so that when you talk about the here, the journey.

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Andy Mort: it's a kind of coming coming back round and like what you know what comes first, st the inner peace or the slowness.

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Andy Mort: It's all a mix, and it's all kind of yeah. You're experimenting with things that bring you.

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Andy Mort: I suppose, bring you to a place of how we're defining inner peace, maybe integrity.

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Andy Mort: a sense of satisfaction with how, how I am doing things or what I

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Andy Mort: have let go, and I think that's a big part of the equation is

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Andy Mort: being at peace with the things that you

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Andy Mort: don't have the capacity or the time or the energy to do, and almost actively letting those things go.

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Andy Mort: because obviously slowing down requires, they said

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Andy Mort: admission, or this acknowledgement that I can't do everything you know, and there are loads and loads of things that I would love to be able to do. It's not just.

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Andy Mort: you know, pressures that other people are putting on me that oh, you need to do this. You should do that. It's like, no, there's loads of things in life that I would absolutely love to have a go at.

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Andy Mort: But I can't. You know I'm a finite human being. And so really, coming to a place of peace

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Andy Mort: with that is important. And yeah, I think there's a there's a a point of.

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Andy Mort: I guess calmness and satisfaction in

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Andy Mort: again the gentle rebelliousness of letting go of things and of saying.

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Andy Mort: Do you know what these are? The? These are the things that matter.

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Andy Mort: There's just a few sort of real keystone ideas or

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Andy Mort: things that are part of my business or part of my life that actually there my

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Andy Mort: focus right now they're the things I'm committing to, and everything else can

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Andy Mort: can fall away. And and that's okay.

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Andy Mort: So yeah, I don't know if that answers that question. But.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, no, it totally doesn't. And

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Sarah Santacroce: it made me think of the word busy. You know how this is such a common word that we kind of throw around like a batch of honor that is part of the business world. Oh, if I'm busy, that means I'm successful, or that's how it's perceived.

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Sarah Santacroce: and so kind of making peace, making inner peace with this idea of

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Sarah Santacroce: maybe not wanting to be busy or wanting to be. What I start to say now is, I'm busy with life. And so that kind of, you know, can people can decide on their own? Well, what does that mean? Because if you're clearly, if you're saying I'm not busy. Well, people see that as something very bad, and they're like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Oh, your business is falling apart. You're not busy. So just making peace with this busyness thing and saying, Well, I'm not busy, but I am very focused, and I have very much clarity around the things that I do want to invest my time in. And and so it's, it's yeah. It doesn't give, give you this

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Sarah Santacroce: overwhelmed energy of that busyness does actually. So yeah.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that. Yes, the words that we use are so

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Andy Mort: impactful, aren't they like? And yeah, I'm very aware of

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Andy Mort: someone says, how? How are things going?

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Andy Mort: So I'm busy.

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Sarah Santacroce: Okay.

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Andy Mort: Why have I said that?

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Andy Mort: But yeah, and also the

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Andy Mort: the yeah, really focusing in on the things that you want to do in the way that you want to do them. So like, recently, I've been

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Andy Mort: doing a lot more kind of hands on, I guess, creative.

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Andy Mort: So I've been doing a lot of collaging which I want to

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Andy Mort: been using. We have like a community Zine, that I put out once a month, and so I've been doing that for that.

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Andy Mort: But I also want to do more of that, for, like blog posts.

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Andy Mort: kind of featured images, and things that

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Andy Mort: until now, like constantly thinking like, oh, what? What's the most efficient way to to do that? Or like social media posts like? How can I

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Andy Mort: do them quicker? And all of that kind of thing.

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Andy Mort: And obviously, you know, generative AI is A is a big part of that question as well, or the conversation

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Andy Mort: there of like, how can you do things more efficiently and

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Andy Mort: be more productive and get more out there? And all of that stuff?

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Andy Mort: And actually.

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Andy Mort: yeah, I'm kind of asking. That question of myself is that useful? Does that does doing more and doing it more quickly.

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Andy Mort: give me more satisfaction, or like a sense of connection to what it is that I'm doing

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Andy Mort: and if not, what do I want to do more? Slowly? Again coming back to that question. Actually, I want to

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Andy Mort: put some time, and my humanity into some of these things that

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Andy Mort: we're being promised. We can do quicker if we take our humanity out of it.

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Andy Mort: And I really appreciate, you know, when you can tell that somebody has really put

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Andy Mort: themselves into a blog post or

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Andy Mort: even a social media post. It's like, Oh, I can see the human there, and I think it's becoming more and more obvious like.

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Andy Mort: however, you know, AI is getting more advanced. But there's still something of the uncanny about it that

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Andy Mort: is often quite evident or identifiable. And so

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Andy Mort: I don't know. I just see there's this moment that we're entering now, where there's this

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Andy Mort: call for more humanness, and there's a

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Andy Mort: an appetite for it whether we're consciously aware of that appetite or not. We see people. And it's like, Oh, yeah, I want people I want. There's a human there. And

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Andy Mort: I just find that, yeah, really attractive and compelling.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I'm glad you brought up AI. That was going to be my last question as well like, How does that play into all of this slowness, where everything we see out there is more, quicker and more efficient and got to do more. Right? So yeah, I love how you brought that up. And then also the yeah, the need

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Sarah Santacroce: for the human connection. And I think that's what we're both doing in our communities. And I think that's really a big part of business like we're human to bring in.

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Sarah Santacroce: not just a humanness in text, because

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Sarah Santacroce: again, that can be easily replaced by by AI, but the humanness in like real connection, even, you know. Obviously, it's going to be still using technology. So online.

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Sarah Santacroce: But but also they're slowing things down. We recently started introducing meaningful questions in our meetups. So they're based on

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Sarah Santacroce: on a deck of cards by Thomas, whom I've interviewed recently, and they're called who cards. And so we pick 2 cards, and they have meaningful questions on them. And so we just have, you know, basically half an hour conversations. And these questions are not business questions. They're personal questions, right?

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Sarah Santacroce: But it allows the community members to yeah, to really get to know one another and to talk about their worldview and

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Sarah Santacroce: and things like that, that matter in terms of building these

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Sarah Santacroce: relationships, this new business intimacy. And and yeah, even if I think about

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Sarah Santacroce: you know how I used to sell my workshops or programs, and how I'm selling them now like before. It really was a transaction click here, and you know, buy now. And now I'm for the marketing, like we're human program. No, I am always wanting to talk to the person right? It's like this. This business intimacy is like, well, yes, it's a group program. But I want to, you know, get to meet you. And I think

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Sarah Santacroce: that kind of approach people will start to look for and see. Am I being heard and seen, or am I just, you know, a number. And people just want the money.

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Andy Mort: How have you?

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Andy Mort: How have you found that? Because I aware of a

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Andy Mort: again a conditioning that we have, you know, when someone wants a conversation, especially in a business context

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Andy Mort: like my, I'd go into sort of a they're going to want to

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Andy Mort: sell something to me, because I'm so used to

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Andy Mort: yeah, it's almost the whole persuasion or influence movement of like, you need to get on the phone and actually talk to someone so that you can force the sale. And so and obviously, that's not. It's the opposite of what you're doing, because it's like I want to connect. And I'm the same. I want to sort of yeah, reach out, have a human connection with people.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, I wonder, have you experienced people's yeah sort of poised.

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Sarah Santacroce: Actually inbound. So I'm not, you know,

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Sarah Santacroce: proposing this conversation, but it's it's an option on the sales page. So they know that is a conversation they they pretty much already decided. Yes, I want to join, but there's no way that you can just buy now. They have to sign up to talk to me, and then

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Sarah Santacroce: I don't have to. I'm not selling anything because they've seen the program details. And they basically just want to find out, am IA good fit for this program? Oftentimes they just want to meet me, and, you know, have a conversation. And so that's what we do. We just have a conversation. And then sometimes it's about figuring out, how, how can we set up a humane payment plan? So it's very.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think it it really lowers or or it calms people's nervous systems because they know what to expect.

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Sarah Santacroce: and so giving them so much information upfront, and then just saying, hey? You want to talk about this. I know this is a great program. I've been running this for many years. Let's talk about it. If this is a good fit. So so that's usually how how it works. I know I see what you mean like by

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Sarah Santacroce: imposing this conversation. I don't think people would. Yeah, they they would probably be like, no, she wants to sell me something. And unfortunately, yeah, that's the reputation that business has. Right? It's like, Oh, you're gonna pitch me your stuff? So so I think what would work in this case is

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Sarah Santacroce: is picking a specific topic

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Sarah Santacroce: and say, how do you feel about what's happening in the world, or this specific thing like what we just addressed right at the beginning, before we started recording like, that would be a great topic to reach out to someone and say, Hey, what's your take on this? Have you seen this? And then just have a conversation? But then obviously not comments at the end, pitch your program, but just connect.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah. And that sort of resonates with the

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Andy Mort: the who cards, as you're saying as well. And

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Andy Mort: the it's like exploring the prompts that we do where

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Andy Mort: actually they might feel irrelevant to business, or they might feel like

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Andy Mort: what a waste of time you're talking about something that's irrelevant to this thing that really matters. And it's like, actually, that thing will come up if it needs to come up. And these are like, you know, train tracks along which the conversation

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Andy Mort: goes, and you'll see the things that are

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Andy Mort: in that environment around people as they start to talk. And then

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Andy Mort: you, you might explore that, and it might give rise to something completely unexpected.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: Saying earlier. So yeah, I really love that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, one more thing I just thought of that I started doing is like, when I have an open workshop where I invite people outside of the community. I don't offer the recording for this workshop only to members, and so I do get some pushback every now and then for that, because people are just not used to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: You know they feel like, well, everybody else is offering a recording. Why aren't you? And and my answer is that I really.

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Sarah Santacroce: this is not just content. This is not just information. It really is part like, what I'm trying to show is the business like, we're human. So you're coming in as a human, and you participate. And

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Sarah Santacroce: and you know you get into breakout rooms and have conversations with peers about this topic. And and so.

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Sarah Santacroce: being in the in presence on Zoom is actually really important. I understand that in terms of you know, everybody's lives and time zones. Sometimes it doesn't work.

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Sarah Santacroce: But then you're really not like, just by getting the information you're not getting the actual message.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Of that event or work.

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Andy Mort: More to it, isn't there? Yes, which is, you can't put into words the difference. It's like so like with the Zine that I mentioned earlier, which is called coming to our senses.

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Andy Mort: I've been doing. There's like a Pdf

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Andy Mort: visual version that I put out each month.

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Andy Mort: But I've also done audio and video versions. So I, you know, compose some music and then narrate what's.

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Sarah Santacroce: Content.

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Andy Mort: From the Zine over the top, and it's usually about 40 min long. And so we have a session on Zoom together. At the end of the month where I just play that video. And we just sit together and watch it.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, people have mentioned, like

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Andy Mort: having watched previous ones just on the sort of Youtube video

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Andy Mort: and then coming to their 1st live session with it, like the difference

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Andy Mort: it makes being there with others watching it live, and whether it's sort of the fact, you're not being distracted by a million one other things.

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Andy Mort: Or it's

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Andy Mort: you're aware that you're in presence. The presence of other like. There are people all around the world

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Andy Mort: there, at that same time doing the same thing as you.

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Andy Mort: and or something else like. It's really difficult to PIN down exactly what it is, but

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Andy Mort: the meaning of it, and the way that it lands in people is so much more than if they're just watching a video on their own.

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Andy Mort: she is speaks to, speaks to what you're saying there as well. Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, good. I guess one of the

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Sarah Santacroce: final questions would be like, How how

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Sarah Santacroce: entrepreneurs who are listening to this. And they're like, yeah, I could definitely use some more spaciousness in in my life and business. What would be like a 1st step that you would

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Sarah Santacroce: tell them to something to look at in their business, or something to do or not do. Probably.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, 1st step.

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Andy Mort: I think. And he I mean, he's

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Andy Mort: say all the time, but sort of just allowing yourself to to notice what matters to you in what you do and what

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Andy Mort: brings you satisfaction? And I've been exploring this this word satisfaction with a coaching client over the past

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Andy Mort: sort of 6 months or so and different sources of satisfaction.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, really reflecting on.

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Andy Mort: you know what's the most satisfying thing to you about the way that you approach your business. What's the most satisfying thing to you to hear from a client? What's what is satisfying.

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Andy Mort: you know, at the end of a day like

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Andy Mort: what has happened in a satisfying day, or whatever it is like. Just

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Andy Mort: yeah. Thinking about those different levels of satisfaction.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, and then, yeah, building a picture around that

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Sarah Santacroce: and then doing Murray condo on all the other things that.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Doing, and are not satisfying right.

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Andy Mort: Yeah. And maybe yeah, because it's like the question of boundaries. It's

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Andy Mort: are you moving towards? If you move towards the things that are satisfying. Will the other things just fall away? Or

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Andy Mort: do you need to actively

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Andy Mort: extract certain things? It's most likely a mixture of both. But I think, yeah, for me. The first, st the starting point is moving towards the things that you know that matter most, and doing

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Andy Mort: things in the way that I want to do them.

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Andy Mort: And then, actually, those other things might naturally just, I'm no longer doing that interesting.

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Andy Mort: Okay, I don't need to bring it back.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Great.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And then I mean, you're such a creative. You create your compose your own music and talking about collages and all of that so bringing more

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Sarah Santacroce: creativity, like just giving yourself permission to be more creative in your business. I think that comes with the that permission of letting go of the shoulds, you know, like we are

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Sarah Santacroce: like copying so much of what other people are telling us to do. But if you

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Sarah Santacroce: realize oh, but that is not actually satisfying than just going into this permission of well, what if I do it differently and more creatively? How would that? Yeah, give me more satisfaction? Right?

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Andy Mort: Definitely, yeah, and your creative voice.

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Andy Mort: Just allowing that to to bubble up and be part of

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Andy Mort: the way you express yourself through your business and humor as well. I think humor is a big part of that like.

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Sarah Santacroce: M.

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Andy Mort: Doing things that make you laugh, doing things that yeah, you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah playfulness.

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Andy Mort: Play you playful? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

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Andy Mort: Yeah. Because people connect to that absolutely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Lovely.

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Sarah Santacroce: so good to talk to you, Andy, please do share about your community, and where else people can find you.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I mean, the best place is is the haven. So the hyphen haven.co

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Andy Mort: everything. I've kind of brought everything that I do

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Andy Mort: with this in respect to what I've been talking about today

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Andy Mort: under that banner. Now. So you, there's yeah a bunch of

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Andy Mort: free stuff there, you can join the community, join us for some live events and things and

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Andy Mort: get the podcast through there.

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Andy Mort: yeah, just head there. Thank you, Sarah, this is yeah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. And I love talking about these things in this way. So thank you for this

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Andy Mort: invitation. It's been lovely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the listeners who slowed down with us and are still listening. So thanks again, Andy, and we'll stay in touch and speak soon.

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Andy Mort: Thank you. Absolutely.