Radically Rethink Business

In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I’m joined by Polly Hearsey for a deep and refreshing conversation about radically reinventing business.

Together, we explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can move beyond fear-based tactics, align with natural rhythms, simplify offerings, and build businesses rooted in service, integrity, and community. If you’re ready to treat your business as a living, evolving ecosystem—and break free from outdated rules—you’ll find inspiration and real-world guidance here.

This is business reimagined for a more humane world.

Here’s what we discussed in this episode:

• Buyers are more skeptical and seek authenticity over hype.
• Clients sense the true intent behind messaging; fear- or scarcity-based offers don’t resonate.
• Aligning business with natural and seasonal rhythms creates a more sustainable presence.
• Flexibility is key-evolve offerings in real time based on current needs.
• Simplifying offerings-less but deeper-better meets people’s needs.
• Treat business as a living, evolving ecosystem rather than a machine to optimize.
• Root work in service and integrity instead of focusing solely on profit.
• Shift away from endless growth; redefine success through depth and impact.
• Build business around community, connection, and co-creation rather than competition.
• Practice courageous listening to ourselves, clients, and the world-and act on what we hear.
• And most importantly, break all the rules and question all the assumptions you have around business.

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Sarah Santacroce: Hi, Polly, it's good to speak to you again.

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Polly Hearsey: Thanks. You know, I always enjoy coming to talk to you because it's just it's fun to suggest. Go where we go. It's it's all.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Light.

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Polly Hearsey: Thank you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, it's kind of like one of the things that I feel like. That's my zone of genius. And I know it's yours to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, reimagine, rethink differently. And so really, that's what I want to do today. And I was just telling you, I think we can do half of the episode or the beginning of the episode about today, right now and then look into the future. So so yeah, let's let's start there. You know, it's quite the time we live in. And there's

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Sarah Santacroce: there's probably I can sense the fear in entrepreneurship. And yeah, I'm just

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Sarah Santacroce: maybe start us off before we go into taking action, start us off with

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Sarah Santacroce: explaining what you sense energetically. What is going on.

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Polly Hearsey: I think that there's been a big shift in the buyer market

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Polly Hearsey: in terms of what they want and what they're expecting, and the way in which they've been burnt in the past.

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Polly Hearsey: And there's definitely an ability to read through the hype

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Polly Hearsey: right? And the promises. So there's a lot of skepticism, I would say, building.

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Polly Hearsey: So. And you see that when people put ads out say on Facebook or something, and you read the comments and the threads, it'll just be. Get the just people be tearing into them because it's not.

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Sarah Santacroce: It.

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Polly Hearsey: So I'm asking.

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Sarah Santacroce: Feel so fake. It's fake.

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Polly Hearsey: Feels fake and and the promises feel overhyped. You know, state, and particularly in the space that we're in.

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Polly Hearsey: We've got a lot of economic turmoil, and we've got a but

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Polly Hearsey: but even before the sort of like the very recent economic turmoil, what we had was

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Polly Hearsey: a lot of well established businesses, we're sliding.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And they were keeping it under wraps. And I also noticed a lot of people who'd.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, maybe 6 years ago had been very present, and then they'd slid off my radar. And then all of a sudden, they've started advertising. That tells me that their business is slipping.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And that's because the way in which they were approaching it through this sort of psychological, persuasion-based approach.

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Polly Hearsey: It's not working, because once you know that it's happening to you. It doesn't work anymore. So people becoming very wise.

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Polly Hearsey: And but I also think that people want something different now. They don't want the same old

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Polly Hearsey: heavy investments long term, because they don't feel that they have a grasp on where things are going to be in 3 months. So why would I invest in an 8 month, 10 month, 12 month program

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Polly Hearsey: to support myself in whatever area I needed

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Polly Hearsey: when I don't know where I'm going to be. Am I going to be the same person? Am I going to want to do the same sort of things? Because I think people can feel so much bubbling up within them

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Polly Hearsey: that they're not entirely sure how they're going to respond to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: So.

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Polly Hearsey: Big investments don't make an awful lot of sense. And yet some of these very established businesses that's a lot of money to invest with them on something where they're not getting one to one support.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's always group, giant group.

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Polly Hearsey: Giant groups. And it's like, Oh, the value is in the information. No, the value isn't in the information anymore. We have AI proliferating that can turn information into process, but without any nuanced understanding

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Polly Hearsey: of how to deliver it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: So what people are now looking for is more human contact. And yet we've built business structures

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Polly Hearsey: that remove that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And so all the expectations about how you automate everything and how you run one to many, and all of that is oh.

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Polly Hearsey: you know I mean, education hasn't lost its value. But information has, I think. And so so it's changing expectations. So I think

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Polly Hearsey: that puts us in a position where we need to be really agile to respond, and creative as well. So we're not just going. Oh, God, I've got to try a little bit harder to make something that's always worked work because it's not going to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right. You can't just push harder and think it's gonna.

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Polly Hearsey: You see that with the classic old, give me your email address and I'll give you something of value.

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Polly Hearsey: How hard is that to push right now.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Do not want yet another, because I don't know about you. My inbox is unmanageable. I spent tail end of last year unsubscribing. I spent a whole day just going unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe. Stop sending me so much stuff. I don't read it. I do not have the capacity to read it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But people don't want that.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: And there was an interesting thread on substack. I was reading yesterday where people were saying, what I want is the ability to buy a single article

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Polly Hearsey: stop making me subscribe, because there are so many writers here.

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Polly Hearsey: but I want to be able to subscribe to pay for one article, awesome and

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Polly Hearsey: interesting reflection of where we're at.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's kind of what I took away from your newsletter the other day where I was like, oh, I got to have you back on the podcast where you talked about bite. Sized. Right? Yeah. Like, people want small bits, and they want to yes experience. Your work before engaging in any length of program.

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Sarah Santacroce: And and yeah, like, I, just, I'm experimenting this year with instead of a 3 month program. I'm running the marketing like we're human in a 5 week program, and I already see the difference, like people who've gone through it in January. They tell me it was so much easier to decide, because it's 5 weeks, and I can. I can handle that like you said I don't know. 3 months, I'm you know, all over the place in 3 months, and so.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Weeks. Yes, just sound easier. And I think.

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Polly Hearsey: People wanted to know what they're going to do with that, you know, and 3 months down the line it feels like a very long time.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: Not, but it feels like a very long time, whereas 5 weeks it doesn't. And I, I ran a couple of 3 week programs this year, and that was much easier for people, although it wasn't easier for me.

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Polly Hearsey: actually, because I and I know how much I

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Polly Hearsey: want people to understand in order to be able to action it.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's the thing right?

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Polly Hearsey: They had a little bit of a sort of like shockwave.

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Polly Hearsey: So I got so I just said to them at the end of it instead, I wasn't going to do a pitch at the end of it. I just said, Look, take your time, process it. Expect to go, you know. Come out of this high and come down through this processing, and then you come out the other side of it. Just be gentle with yourself.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: But I have, you know, for me it's like I I couldn't in all integrity

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Polly Hearsey: offer you something that didn't cover all of the bases.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: Even on, you know, I've scaled it back to just one focus. But I still, you know, I need to give you the information, because if you don't have that, then you've got missing pieces of the puzzle, and you're not gonna do anything with it. So.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: There there is for us when we're actually designing stuff. There is a bit of a balancing act to go on there, because we we know what we need to do in order to be in integrity with our own values.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: Equally responding to that changing need of.

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Polly Hearsey: I need something a little more immediate. I need something very specific. No, I mean.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, what I did also because of the integrity piece. I I well, I've always had that. But I just have a flat fee where people can come again.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, next round and and often. That's a very much appreciated gesture, because it doesn't mean Oh, you failed, and you didn't, you know, integrate it? But it just gives them more time. And that's often the thing that we don't have in these programs is like, Oh, 5 weeks so much content.

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Sarah Santacroce: And then you're like, Oh, exhausted after. So yeah, having this flat fee for past participants has really yeah helped people. I think, also just giving them permission, giving themselves permission. Yeah, I'm going to do this again. And this is this, is that deep.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And it's okay. Because every time it's like, when you read a book.

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Polly Hearsey: when you read it the 1st time you have, you have particular paragraphs that jump out at you, and then you'll read it again. You think I'm really waiting for that moment, and it doesn't come, but it comes somewhere else, because you're just integrating and processing something else and understanding it. And if I think about my own journey through business because it's what it was 11 years now since

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Polly Hearsey: I started my business.

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Polly Hearsey: I don't recognize the person I was back then.

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Polly Hearsey: but if I go back to what I was talking about. I was talking about the same things.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But my understanding of what I was talking about was very different.

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Sarah Santacroce: And.

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Polly Hearsey: And I knew that I had. In fact, I have a client who's worked with me over a number of years, say to me, and she'd had a break, and she came back and she said, the last program I ran, she said.

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Polly Hearsey: you've it's so much more coherent what you offer now.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, I mean, it feels that way. But it takes time to get there. It's like slow version of slow food version of business, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: next time

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Polly Hearsey: to build the flavors and to understand the process, and and to really sort of settle yourself into it. And I think that's what we're missing. I think it's also a hint of where we're going.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we'll get to that.

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Sarah Santacroce: But maybe

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Sarah Santacroce: so you're you're seeing these sub stack threads. And you know, listening to clients what they tell you, what do you feel like? Is is

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Sarah Santacroce: well, their biggest fear right now. But also, what kind of mistakes are they making because they're in fear? So what kind of business mistakes are they making.

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Polly Hearsey: I think one of the biggest mistakes that people are making are trying to persist in being places and doing things that they aren't right for them.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And I said at the end of last year that I think social media will really.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Have a massive shake up this year.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And I do think that you know that sort of like the pressure to be on social media, to be on Tiktok, to be on Instagram to, you know, to have this visual presence.

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Polly Hearsey: People are realizing that it's not actually doing them any favors.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And where everybody's consciousness is at, it's about depth and precision.

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Polly Hearsey: The the wonderful Jess Lorimer says.

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Polly Hearsey: An inch wide a mile deep. That's and that's where we're at, not not a mile wide and an inch deep, which is where we've been.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, all the time. Right?

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Polly Hearsey: That depth.

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Polly Hearsey: So it's about having deeper conversations, about deeper connection, and that is so hard to achieve in sound bites.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So when I say.

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Sarah Santacroce: Think of bias. We're.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's big of the sound bites.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we're wanting bite, sized things that we're offering. And yet we want to go deep.

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Polly Hearsey: I think the thing is, it's about what is there within you that is going to stop someone in their tracks and make them think.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: What is something that's really going to land? I was saying something this week in a group that I'm in, I saying there is a difference between visibility and having your content received.

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Polly Hearsey: You can be visible. You can be visible to millions of people. But that doesn't mean that content has achieved anything. And I think we have such a moral obligation to make sure that the content that we put out there actually has a meaning

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Polly Hearsey: and a value to somebody because it has a cost attached to it.

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Polly Hearsey: It has a cost to our planet.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's a permanent escalating cost, because it goes into data banks that have to be sustained with electricity and water and land. That

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Polly Hearsey: so, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: for me, it's there's a huge amount of integrity about saying, not putting out this very shallow content just because it gets abuse. It's about depth.

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Polly Hearsey: It's me that is the mistake that people are making, because they're still trying to use the old methods.

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Polly Hearsey: So my conversation has always has been this year about, flip it, flip the script because you need to be thinking about. What can I do to create

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Polly Hearsey: the means for people to engage with me in a way that is actually meaningful for me and for my business.

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm.

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Polly Hearsey: Full for the people I support.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, that resonates in the business. Like, we're human book. I ask people to be assumption busters.

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Sarah Santacroce: Question all your assumptions that you have about business and social media and marketing, how it should be done, and then do it differently, like. I am so so tired of, you know, going on social media and looking what's out there, and everything is the same. It's like I was trying to break my brain about how to do this book launch, but do it differently.

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Sarah Santacroce: and not just follow the same copy and same structure that everybody else is doing. And so I think that's

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah. That's part of it. Like, how do we want to do this in a in a more human, engaging way, and not just be about.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, let's just take this example. Not just be about a best selling author on Amazon, or, you know, getting a thousand reviews. What we're really doing is hustling for Bezos, who's taking all the benefit. And and we are just working like slaves to get those reviews. So like, question, all of these things that we have just bought as well. This is just how it is, and this is just how it works.

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Polly Hearsey: There is an assumption there, isn't it, that you don't have the power to change that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And that that's something I say all the time is like, don't underestimate your power. If you think about all of the new trends that happen. Someone started them somewhere.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes.

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Polly Hearsey: So are you going to be a sheep, or are you going to be a leader? And that? And

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Polly Hearsey: when I talk about leadership, I know people sort of tend to go. It's not me. I'm not a leader because we have some really toxic

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Polly Hearsey: role models for.

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Sarah Santacroce: Leadership.

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Polly Hearsey: But there are different leaders coming.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Quiet leaders, people who lead from the middle. And

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Polly Hearsey: you can have, you can create different ways of doing it.

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Polly Hearsey: And it doesn't have to be this sort of like standard standard approach.

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Polly Hearsey: And, in fact, the more subtle you are, the more creative you are, the more you're likely to be received because you're thinking, oh, hang on a second.

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Polly Hearsey: I didn't think I was being sold to like that. So I did in the program I did recently.

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Polly Hearsey: I set them all a task to produce a piece of content based on sort of understanding the the energetics of their business.

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Polly Hearsey: and they they produce the most extraordinary things.

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Polly Hearsey: And I asked them to share it because I wanted them to see the difference in reaction.

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Polly Hearsey: So you might get less of a reaction. But it'll be a deeper reaction.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And so they got instant responses from people going. This spoke to me so deeply, and I asked them afterwards, said, Did you feel like you were selling.

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Polly Hearsey: and they said no, didn't feel like saying, but you were

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Polly Hearsey: still putting it on the table for people and people weren't feeling like they were being sold to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: That's rebellious. That is the height of rebellion in a world that's all about. You've got to have conversions.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? Yeah. So so do you feel like, that's

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Sarah Santacroce: right. Now, it feels like we're the outsiders. Still right? Do you think that's gonna Flip where.

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Polly Hearsey: I think it already has.

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Sarah Santacroce: It already has. Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: But I don't think that some people are even aware I mean the last people to know that the change has happened to the people at the top. If you sort of mean, I think it has already changed, because

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Polly Hearsey: I mean, I just look at what people are talking about and just go. I've been saying that for 10 years. It's like slightly between gritted teeth. Which? But actually going? Well, if if everybody is now openly talking about that.

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Polly Hearsey: Then then a change has already happened.

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Sarah Santacroce: But I still.

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Polly Hearsey: Don't think that people know how to respond to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Okay, yeah. Because what I see is like, when you talk to people

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Sarah Santacroce: they are like, yes, agreeing, you know, nodding their heads.

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Sarah Santacroce: But then when you see what they're posting.

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Sarah Santacroce: they're still adhering to the old rules, maybe because they don't. They don't have the new role models. They don't.

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Polly Hearsey: Have the alternative. So that's what that's what you and I are doing. We're providing them with the alternative. So we have to be the walking role models. We have to walk the talk and do it differently. And and that means we also have to be the experimenters. We have to fail a lot.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes. Talk to me about that. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And so that brings it. That's an interesting one, because it brings a degree of transparency about the fact that not all business efforts are successful. So this whole narrative that we've all come through in the last 4 years of this instant overnight success. Once I found out how to do XY. Or Z, because it was the missing piece.

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Sarah Santacroce: A magic pill.

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Polly Hearsey: The magic flipping wand and pill. Yes, it's that doesn't exist.

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Polly Hearsey: We we demonstrate that that doesn't exist.

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Polly Hearsey: and that actually, the real magic comes from

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Polly Hearsey: giving yourself permission to be creative.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: So that that has been challenging sort of like. Oh, right, I have to have a signature program and a signature talk, and I have to have a lead in, and I have to have an automation, and I have to have a welcome. All of these pieces

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Polly Hearsey: coming back to being assumption Busters. Why the hell do you actually need them?

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Sarah Santacroce: Nice.

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Polly Hearsey: Seriously. Why do you need them? Do you have to have that? You can have something that is paid?

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Polly Hearsey: And here's the interesting thing in terms of the buyer behaviours.

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Polly Hearsey: People are more likely to give you $5 $10 for something.

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Polly Hearsey: and then do something with it than they are to take a freebie.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm,

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Polly Hearsey: So why do you have to produce any free content.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: That's interesting. I was just thinking about my workbook that goes together with the with the book, and in the 2 previous books I just had it as a free download, and it felt good until I, you know, started to realize. Well, I want to know who's working on these books, and like, you know, and so I was like, well, I'll just add it as a donation.

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Polly Hearsey: So that they can give. You know, however much they want, and.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I think that's when money feels good, if it's like, yes, I want to, you know, earn something for that. I've put a lot of effort and hours into it.

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Sarah Santacroce: But I understand your situation might be different, and you know, just kind of like putting it out there and explaining. I think a lot of what we're doing is explaining how things are.

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Sarah Santacroce: so that there is that transparency because.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: People are. So

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, everything was so hidden and and opaque that yeah, it just needs that time now to make everything super clear. And yes, that starts with affiliate links. But it also, you know. We talked about AI in our community. It's like, well.

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Sarah Santacroce: say, when you're using AI and make that clear. So yeah, all these different things that we do to help people in that transition so that they can gain trust again because they lost all the trust in any kind of message.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. But I mean coming back to sort of like, your original point of opening this this bit was, you've got to work with the tools that you've got.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: At your disposal right now, but it doesn't mean you have to work with them in the standard ways.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: So you can rethink those right now and think well, how can I do it? So you know some of the examples I gave in the Newsletter you referenced were.

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Polly Hearsey: why have a free substack? Why not just have a paid one?

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Polly Hearsey: You know you can use notes, or whatever to sort of like promote it.

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Polly Hearsey: You don't have to have a free one. You don't have to run one-to-one mentoring.

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Polly Hearsey: But bear in mind that the market doesn't want large groups. So how do you do that? How do you maximize that you can get really creative with the tools that you have and the technology that you have, but you can use it in a different way. So forget about the algorithms on Facebook

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Polly Hearsey: and do what feels good to you because it can guarantee that if you do what feels good to you, people will find it and engage with it, and then you'll actually be part of resetting the algorithm. Then, you know, in the short term. So

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Polly Hearsey: it it's think, stop stop thinking that you have to operate within the rules.

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Polly Hearsey: And my favorite, my favorite tool for business development is blank sheet of paper. What would you create if you didn't have any rules.

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Sarah Santacroce: What feels good, and then you might say, Oh, you know what.

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Polly Hearsey: That program was. And I did this myself this year. That program I was thinking of running.

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Polly Hearsey: I'm going to do it as pay what you want.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Why not?

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Sarah Santacroce: I mean, that's something you can do. Do not do that if you are dependent on the income.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? Of course.

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Polly Hearsey: You've got the flexibility.

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Polly Hearsey: Why not see how it lands? See what people give, and people will give a whole spectrum.

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Polly Hearsey: You know, and it depends on whether or not they know you, whether or not they know the value of it. What their financial situation is, it makes it more accessible, and that honesty of accessibility

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Polly Hearsey: changes the relationship. So have your blank piece of paper.

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Polly Hearsey: Think what what can I do?

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Sarah Santacroce: I guess it's not easy, like we've been in entrepreneurship for a while, right? And we know that we are in charge. We make all the decisions in our business. But for new entrepreneurs I can. I can totally understand the overwhelm. It would be much easier to have, you know, a 7 step process on how this works.

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Polly Hearsey: I mean.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's not the time we're in.

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Polly Hearsey: No. And the thing is that there's there's 2 groups of people that I see at the moment. There's the new entrepreneurs who are actually basically in a frozen state, because they know that they don't want to proceed down the normal route, but they don't know what else to do. So they do dabble with it, and it burns them, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: it really hurts. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Then there's a group of people who've been through that, and they've got an established business, but

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Polly Hearsey: that has burnt them out completely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And they're at the point of hitting hitting the big red button to explode everything.

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Polly Hearsey: So yeah, so if you're a new entrepreneur, it's about finding

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Polly Hearsey: people who inspire you, and that doesn't have to just be in the business world, you know, if

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Polly Hearsey: you know how to.

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Polly Hearsey: How do I start my business. How is someone approaching that I've got? A dear friend who has such a gentle approach to her? Instagram?

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Polly Hearsey: It's just. It's just so gentle that you wouldn't necessarily know that it was selling.

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Polly Hearsey: you know, because she just does it in her own way.

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Polly Hearsey: And so I think that's that's

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Polly Hearsey: that's the thing is that finding yourself

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Polly Hearsey: people who really sort of like just make you. That's a beautiful way to share something.

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Polly Hearsey: There's a photographer. I'm so glad that her stuff comes. I like it every day, so that makes sure that I see it on my feed every day. She's just on an Anti AI cruise and photography crusade. Sorry. And so she shares a photo that she's taken every single day, and it's just like.

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Polly Hearsey: Oh, my God! She never mentions that you can go and buy this photos from her or anything. It's just. It's so gentle and it's so inspiring

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Polly Hearsey: that

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Polly Hearsey: it's about the energy that you feel. You think I wanna I want to hold that energy when I'm out there in my business. How would I do that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Just.

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Polly Hearsey: Throw out the rule book.

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Polly Hearsey: throw out all of the reference points of all the people who are telling you exactly how to do it, because that is a very toxic narrative to have in your head really, really toxic. It will keep you stuck.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: I want to switch to the future now, and maybe hear from you 1st how you envision your work and life in 5 years can't go.

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Polly Hearsey: Okay.

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Sarah Santacroce: That right now is like, Oh, 5 years already feels really far.

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Sarah Santacroce: No, I'm not entirely sure I could get to 5.

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Polly Hearsey: To be honest.

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Polly Hearsey: okay, I mean, where I see business going is this complete transition? Because we're in a space where we simply cannot continue

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Polly Hearsey: down the path that we're on. It is not sustainable from a human point of view, it is not sustainable from an environmental point of view, and it's not even sustainable from the economic point of view. But that is not necessarily being understood.

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Polly Hearsey: So

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Polly Hearsey: I don't know if you've seen it. But the Uk government has just actually started talking about, how are they going to brighten clouds to reflect more sun? And how are they going to geoengineer the weather that they've actually provided grants for this research. You just go.

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Polly Hearsey: This is classic economic model. You just knew it was going to come. People are going to be trying to find. How can they make money out of solving the crisis?

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Here's the problem

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Polly Hearsey: that they're not looking at, or the solution that they're not looking at, and that is that the problems are solved by doing it in a completely different way. We cannot continue to use the economic model that we've got. So in terms of climate change, if we just actually poured all of our resources into restoring the soil, we would make a massive difference in a couple of years.

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Polly Hearsey: Huge difference.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's not about planting forests and forests and forests. It's about looking at the soil, because that's where most of the carbon goes.

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Polly Hearsey: So we have to. So to me the future of business is about returning it, returning the power to the people.

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Polly Hearsey: and that starts with believing in yourself and believing in the fact that you have a valid and valuable role in the world

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Polly Hearsey: which has been so severely eroded by the societies that we've set up.

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Polly Hearsey: So where do I think business is going? I think business is going into a much more diverse

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Polly Hearsey: creative process. When I say creative, I don't just mean everyone's going to go into the creative arts. I mean that it's about, who am I as a person? And what do I want to offer the world?

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Polly Hearsey: So it's going to become more diverse. It's going to become more creative? And ultimately

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Polly Hearsey: is this 5? Is it 10? Is it 20 years down the line? They business is actually going to be part, become part of the ecosystem.

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Polly Hearsey: Instead of being in an extractive mode, the economic

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Polly Hearsey: norms will have been reshaped. So that actually, we're in a collaborative mode.

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Polly Hearsey: That's complex, because there's a whole web of energies that are, you know, they've got existing pathways that is very hard to change, but that, to me is

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Polly Hearsey: the higher sort of philosophical philosophical philosopher.

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Polly Hearsey: Philosophical direction of travel.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Because it's about restoring agency. It's about restoring individual power and restructuring society.

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Polly Hearsey: So that's not a 5 year thing.

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Polly Hearsey: but in 5 years time I think the expectations of businesses will be completely different.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: How about you?

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Sarah Santacroce: I like that vision.

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Sarah Santacroce: I just recently finished reading a book called Stellar, where

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Sarah Santacroce: the vision is that we have

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Sarah Santacroce: free energy that comes from the sun and the wind.

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Sarah Santacroce: and that then changes everything, because once we have free energy that is not extractive, but is regenerative.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, the humans, in a way, it's kind of like you can just relax

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Sarah Santacroce: because there is not that need anymore to constantly produce. And, you know, create

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Sarah Santacroce: money to pay energy which then creates more crap. And you know, it's like this whole cycle. And so, yeah, I think I think it starts with with, like, you say, a complete systems change.

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Sarah Santacroce: I know already what we're already seeing is people don't want to work in in big businesses anymore, where it's just about, you know, climbing the ladder, and

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Sarah Santacroce: of course yes, there will. It'll be, I think, for a while there will be 2 worlds, 2 narratives. But eventually yeah, that that will change. And I think, actually like you, I think the power comes from the people.

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Sarah Santacroce: And so it's going to be these new leaders with innovative ideas. And yes, technology will help. But it will be with good intentions that we're using these technologies that are available.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I think the one the countries, if you think, from a country orientation? I think it's the small countries.

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Sarah Santacroce: probably from the global South that will be able to implement this the fastest.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Because there's not that level of bureaucracy that we have in other countries.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And I think that is a really interesting point, because we have these big institutions, you know, the bigger, the more established the economies of a particular country, the more we have these institutions, and so the power is controlled through the institutions.

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Sarah Santacroce: Exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: What's going to happen when we have more and more people coming into entrepreneurship, more and more people sort of choosing different pathways for their business for their careers, which not necessarily about owning a business

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Polly Hearsey: is, you diversify the the ground.

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Polly Hearsey: You change people's behavior in terms of how they engage with the businesses that they need in order to live.

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Polly Hearsey: and then, all of a sudden, there is nothing underneath those institutions.

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Polly Hearsey: and which means that governments don't have the power

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Polly Hearsey: to direct things anymore. So it's a very sudden collapse.

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Polly Hearsey: But it takes a long time coming, and it takes a lot of belief. So you know, going back to Martha Beck's pyramid in the pool

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Polly Hearsey: idea of, you know the changes created from the ground up.

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Polly Hearsey: We have to get across the base and work our way up slowly.

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Polly Hearsey: So for you and me because we we have to navigate. So you know, probably the conversations we were having with people, and what people were ready to hear 10 years ago, 5 years ago. That's changed. People are ready to hear something different now. So we have to keep advancing the conversation because it moves the the change up a little bit, because already, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: I see this all the time. It's like the the ground level where I might have started being, you know

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Polly Hearsey: 8 years ago, or whatever.

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Polly Hearsey: There's plenty of people there now saying exactly what I was saying back then, so I need to advance the conversation.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really good. And it reminds me also, when I shortened the the program.

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Sarah Santacroce: i 1 of the points I explained in my newsletter, I said. I can with all integrity do that because I feel like I'm picking people up at an advanced, more advanced level.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Like when I started in 2019, I had to 1st explain, well, what is this? Why are we doing this? And now people are like, sign me up. Yeah, I want to do humane marketing.

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Polly Hearsey: The assumptions have already.

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Polly Hearsey: Is it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: People have done the work which they hadn't done. So this is one of the reasons that this year I've been focusing a lot on what I call states of being and understanding those states of being of your audience.

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Sarah Santacroce: Because.

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Polly Hearsey: There are some who are still need to have it explained, and there are some who are in the process of getting ready, and there are a whole lot lot more people who are ready to do the work

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Polly Hearsey: if you talk

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Polly Hearsey: the right language to them. So you have to understand where they're at. You also have to understand what the role of your business is.

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Polly Hearsey: So because there are educator businesses who have a really important role to play in coming back to. I was saying to you before we started recording, but ecosystems of change.

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Polly Hearsey: you have to have people who are educators because it's like. It's asking people to open up and to do that assumption busting.

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Polly Hearsey: But you have to have the people who inspire different ways, and you and I fall into that category.

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Polly Hearsey: But we also have to have the people who

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Polly Hearsey: draw people together, and the people who focus on the actual mechanics of.

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Sarah Santacroce: Create.

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Polly Hearsey: The new. So we need all of these things, and everybody's business has a different role to play in that cycle. So we need to understand that. But you and I, we fall into that inspiration category. We we do show people how to do it.

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Polly Hearsey: But really, our focus is on saying, you want to go. Are you ready to go? Let's go because

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Polly Hearsey: you have the answers, and I can show you how to access them.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's kind.

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Polly Hearsey: What we do. So it's it's the conversation has changed.

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Polly Hearsey: Hmm, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: I spent years thinking I am screaming into the void.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes, yeah, in 2,018 that that was my or you know already before. But it's like when I put the 1st book out. It's like crickets, you know. Nobody was.

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Polly Hearsey: The collective consciousness was not ready to receive.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But the simple act. Here's the thing that I think people must remember the fact that you put that out there

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Polly Hearsey: changed

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Polly Hearsey: the playing field. It doesn't matter that there were crickets. You change the playing field, so you made it more possible for that conversation to happen, and the words that you put out there. Then I bet they're being reflected back to you now the things that you see other people saying you're going. Oh, hang on a second. I said that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And that's good, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: That's what we do it for.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's that's what we're here for. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So. So we have to remember that even if we get crickets, there's a long term thing. And I say this a lot.

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Polly Hearsey: We have been trained to think that there is a direct correlation between the actions that we take and the responses that we get. So

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Polly Hearsey: you know, I I put this out, and I've got a bit of hair.

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Polly Hearsey: and I put this post out. I get a sale.

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Sarah Santacroce: I get sales. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Doesn't work like that. And I was

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Polly Hearsey: an exercise, I say to people to put put something that you you genuinely believe about, and you believe in and put it out there, and you might get crickets. But then just open your awareness. 360,

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Polly Hearsey: and see where the response comes from. Because there you are. You're assuming there's a direct correlation between what I'm saying and the person that I'm talking to.

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Polly Hearsey: But actually, what you're doing is putting an energy out into the world. And then, if you're aware of it, some behind you, you're going to get a response.

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Sarah Santacroce: So, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So stop thinking. That's the other thing that we stop thinking about this direct causation.

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Polly Hearsey: It isn't a direct causation, it is. It is about the energy we put out, and then the energy that we receive.

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Sarah Santacroce: And so the problem with that is that we're being taught well, if you put something out there and nobody responds, then.

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Polly Hearsey: Failed.

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Sarah Santacroce: It's failed, and, you know, move on to the next thing. And meanwhile there's all this, you know, movement going on underneath the surface that you're not seeing. And so you know, people ask next year, what about your program? You're not doing that anymore. So.

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Polly Hearsey: So, and there there's if you agrees. The the

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Polly Hearsey: An analogy I use

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Polly Hearsey: is that if you if you look particularly spring now, if you look at this, there's a riot of growth going on.

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Polly Hearsey: Where does that growth start? It starts in the soil. Can you see it? No.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: It's happening.

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Polly Hearsey: So we have. So there's a lot of trust. So and you and I have been through that. We've been through this sort of thing, feeling like we're talking

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Polly Hearsey: to nothing, you know, we're not getting a response. But actually, we've just been fertilizing the ground.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: But we have to keep on doing that because.

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Sarah Santacroce: Keep on doing that.

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Polly Hearsey: Our part, you know, there's a lot of people who will then come in and work that. But we for us, it's about setting the expectations.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: What does it actually mean? Because about probably about 4 years ago, I noticed this big shift

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Polly Hearsey: in the way that some of the really big businesses, you know, the multi 7 figure businesses were talking and the language that they were using. And then I looked at what they were doing, and they were doing exactly the same thing, but they shifted their language.

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Sarah Santacroce: And.

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Polly Hearsey: It's more than that. It's not about just shifting your language. It's about shifting your expectations. It's about upholding your values. It's about listening to yourself in a different way, and giving yourself a different set of permissions to do things.

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Polly Hearsey: So he's.

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Sarah Santacroce: And that's what you said at the beginning. It's like people can smell that a mile away, right when it's just lipstick on a pig.

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Polly Hearsey: And yeah, and your business. It's what happens behind the scenes in your business and beyond the public gaze. That is as important as what you put out there publicly.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: There can be an absolute, you know, businesses that are car crash behind the scenes

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Polly Hearsey: that it helps no one. So you do the work on yourself, on how you hold your business, and how you conduct your business. You do that in order to build something that is resilient.

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Polly Hearsey: and that would be my. The one thing I would say to people is that if you want to have a business in the future.

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Polly Hearsey: you better then well, focus on your resilience.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, okay.

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Polly Hearsey: I don't mean your economic resilience, I mean your energetic, your values-based resilience. Now.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Cause it.

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Sarah Santacroce: I was just gonna ask you, kind of as a closing question, like.

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Sarah Santacroce: what kind of questions do you think leaders, entrepreneurs should ask themselves.

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Sarah Santacroce: either themselves or or about their business, just like what are the.

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Polly Hearsey: The number. One thing that I come, I tell people to do, and I and you cannot do it too many times.

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Polly Hearsey: You can do it every month if you want to, every week, if you want to, is, ask yourself what are my values, and how am I upholding them?

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And that means looking at the fine print of your terms and conditions as much as it means. How am I showing up.

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Polly Hearsey: Where is the integrity in that? Where is the integrity with my values?

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Polly Hearsey: Because your values come from within.

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Polly Hearsey: and the more that you are focused on your values, the more you are challenging and busting assumptions.

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Polly Hearsey: and the more you are opening up the landscape for your business to thrive in the future.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: Beautiful.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, I think we have a lot of hope for.

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Polly Hearsey: And do we do.

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Sarah Santacroce: Business of the future. I do. You do so. We'll just keep showing up.

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Polly Hearsey: I say, business has caused a lot of the problems.

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Polly Hearsey: It can also be the solution.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, I really believe that it's.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: It's not the institutions, it's not the governments. It's the humans behind the businesses. Right?

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. Yep, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And that's going to be the thing that changes everything.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Sarah Santacroce: thank you, Polly, as always wonderful. Please do share where people can find out more about you, and sign up to your newsletter, etcetera.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, you can head over to my website, which is just polyhecy.co.uk, and and follow the breadcrumbs from there.

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Sarah Santacroce: Wonderful. Yeah. And let's let's do it again, sometime.

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Polly Hearsey: I'd love to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Thank you.

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Polly Hearsey: Thank you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Bye.