Bring Flow Into Your Business by Copying Nature

In this inspiring episode, I’m joined by Jessica Lohmann to explore how nature can guide us back to more meaningful, ethical ways of doing business.

We talk about Jessica’s journey from corporate marketing to founding Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing, and how reconnecting with nature — and ourselves — can shift not just our business practices, but our entire mindset.

From animal wisdom to simple daily rituals, Jessica shows how observing and honoring the natural world can bring more flow, purpose, and integrity into the way we work.

In this episode we talked about:

• How Jessica’s frustration with harmful, manipulative marketing led her to create Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing
• The connection between our disconnection from nature and many societal problems
• How nature — especially animals — can inspire our business and marketing practices
• The role of spirit animals and how Jessica uses animal wisdom (like the misunderstood hyena) to guide her marketing and business decisions
• Daily practices to reconnect with nature, from simply walking outside to using oracle cards and observing animals
• The shift in mindset needed to make time for nature, embodiment, and rest — even as entrepreneurs

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Speaker 0:  hey, jessica. how are you? hello? i'm fine. how are you? yes, i'm good. hot, but good. yeah. same there. yeah, really looking forward to this, to this commerce conversation around marketing and nature. it's funny, it's like probably a year and a half or so that it comes up all the time, this topic of nature. and so when i started to see your linkedin posts, i'm like, yeah, she's someone i want to talk to on the podcast. so here we are. yeah. welcome. you have a program called marketing by nature. right. you have a business. remind me of the name of the business. ethical brand marketing. right. okay. so we have the ethical in common as well. but what really got my attention was the marketing by nature. so, yeah, tell us more about how this became your focus.

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i do have a marketing degree. so i got that in 1991, and i worked in corporate, you know, for a long time and and moved to germany in 1995, so pretty early in my career. and i just watched because i graduated in 1991. we didn't have computers back then. right? like, only a few people did. so i watched how the internet basically increased the harmful manipulation in marketing over the years. and because before, it was just a little, like, false advertising. you know, it was still damaging, to some extent, but not to the, yeah, to what we have today. so it basically grew out of my frustration, of how marketing has been abused over the years. and also, like, with the nature part, because i'm very connected with nature, i've always, you know, we we went camping when i was young. i worked for veterinarians during high school and college. so i've always had this connection with animals. and, and i truly believe that the root cause of all our societal problems is our complete disconnect from nature. and there are people who will tell you, like, when that happened. it started when we start started, wearing shoes with rubber soles and, you know, those are kind of, yeah, i'm not really sure, but the industrial revolution definitely, helped with that disconnect. and so what i feel is that if we connect with nature, we are completely different people. like we actually find ourselves again and we respect ourselves. we don't criticize ourselves. we find love and also with other people and it just, yeah. so i just also feel, which i'm sure we'll talk about, throughout this conversation, how nature can really inspire us, how other species can inspire us, and also how we how we're all connected and how we can work together, to, yeah, to solve these super wicked problems that we've caused as one species.

Speaker 0:  so yeah. do you feel like like you said, you you've been, you know, super interested in this since 1991, which probably a lot of listeners, including i mean, including myself in 1991. yeah. nature was just this thing that we, you know, spent some leisure time in, but it wasn't yet we, there was no talk yet about reconnecting with nature. that is to me at least fairly recent. so did you all these years, because i, i know for humane marketing, the, the, this idea of, you know, doing marketing in a different way. for me, it started in 02/2006. right. which is like later much later than 1991. and even so, from 2006 till actually, no. not not even 02/2006. that's when i started my first business. it's more like 02/2018, i started talking about gentle marketing. and so for all this time, i felt like very alone talking about doing marketing differently. so i cannot imagine how you must have felt all these years. yeah. talking about connecting with nature and and how this relates to marketing. is this a story that i'm just telling myself or is this the

Speaker 1:  story that you lived? well, it's i it's kinda hard to really go back because back then in 1991, i was i was super young. right? like, i just got out of college. so i didn't really make that connection back then. mhmm. and we didn't have the internet, so i didn't see all the harmful manipulation that we have now. i just noticed it throughout the years. and then when i i guess when i started working for an it software development company here in germany in february, there were times where i was like, no. i don't wanna email these people because they did not consent. and this was way before the gdpr in 02/2018. right? so it just like, that even felt weird to me. and i also tried i tried so many times with this with my one, with this one company who i worked for for, i wanna say, eleven years. yeah. i tried so hard to bring nature into our branding, and i wasn't able to. and and that kind of upset me, but it's okay. it wasn't my it wasn't my company. so as soon as i got out, i was like, okay. now i could do what i want. and now i can say what i want. and now i can actually, yeah, bring something forward that really makes sense. and it was the first time well, actually, that's not true. i was gonna say it was the first time that i felt good about my job because, you know, as a marketer, you'd like we have a bad rep. right? with totally understandable. but i never worked for a company who did things unethically. i won't say that. like, that's not you know, i i didn't work for big companies and and do all this harm for manipulation. i just saw it externally. but, like, the first job i i had after college was with a, independent record label. so that was fun. that was what i was gonna say. like like, me, my my job is the first time i actually felt like it was purposeful. mhmm. but my first job after college working with vets veterinarians was also very, very, purposeful and fulfilling. it was best job ever. but then working at the record label, that was also that was fun. and, so but in between, there's just a lot of, misalignment, i guess, because i couldn't really do what i felt was necessary or was was was purposeful for me,

Speaker 0:  i guess. so so you referenced, you know, the the these, i guess, lessons or inspiration that we can get from from nature. and yeah. and i noticed for from your posts and and what you're sharing now, for you, it's may mainly animals. i guess for other people, it can be, you know, it can be plants, trees. people talk a lot about trees. i love trees. also, i just came off a call, in our community called, doing business with the moon. so planets and stars are also part of nature and, you know, the universe. so so yeah. tell us how you kind of, like, draw these parallels between nature and, and business and marketing.

Speaker 1:  yeah. i, i do spend a lot of time in nature and i observe, and i communicate. i communicate with trees. i communicate with wild animals, my pets as well, but you know, that's something different. like everybody communicates with their pets, but, this real connection piece. and, so like, okay, let's say this week we have a new moon in cancer. and so i was i i work with oracle cards. i work with, spirit animals, and my totem animal, which is elk. but this week i was, you know, asking asking animals, okay, who wants to guide us this week of this new moon? new moon, new beginnings, it's always exciting. and hyena came up. and like, i'm getting chills right now because when you think of hyena, you think, okay, they're schemy, there's something weird about them. they have a weird posture. they kind of laugh at you. you know, they're bottomless.

Speaker 0:  they're like the mean guys in the they're the mean guys.

Speaker 1:  yeah. exactly. exactly. but when you really learn about them, you're like, wow. so so what happens is that, like, they are a resourceful strategist, and they're deeply misunderstood, like we just said. like and that kind of, like, makes me think of people of my network. we're all working in the climate and the ecospace. we're trying to inspire people to respect nature and we are nature. we are all connected. we are animals and, we are not here on earth to destroy. and so, and i'm also vegan. so like, there's a lot of misunderstanding with veganism and basically why? because the narrative that we have been giving as a collective is doom and gloom, is blame and shame, and that doesn't inspire anybody to act. so it's it's like so coming back to the hyena, like, she's very matriarchal. she has an energy that we need in today's corporate, corrupt world, actually. like, she's also a team player. they hunt more efficiently than lions. i mean, male lions don't hunt at all. they just sleep, eat, and fornicate. but, but like hyenas, they they actually work together and they don't waste anything. you know, they are scavengers, but 70% i just read this yesterday. 70% of their of what they eat are from hunting, which i didn't know, which is more efficient than than than lions. so i thought they scavenged more than than hunted, but that's actually not true. so, basically like her energy and i say her because it is a feminine energy. so she does not waste time. she does not waste money. she does not waste energy, like, and on on things that don't matter. so, she also tells us to, like, know our worth and to lead quietly, but move strategically. and so these these learnings, really, really help me and i'm hoping that they're helping people who read what i've been writing because i write this, like, every monday now. i've just started this month of doing that, and, and it seems like people are really enjoying it. i'm trying not to get too woo at this point in time, but i will at some point. i will move more into the woo. and where are you sharing this? on linkedin.

Speaker 0:  okay. i only do people need to follow you on linkedin to

Speaker 1:  see this part? yes. please do. i would love to connect. so yeah, so it's like, it could also be something as simple as, you know, hey. it's because people have asked me, should i should i go on tiktok? and i'm like, well, are your clients there? no. okay. that kind of answers your question. right? so so when people, like, get in that sort of desperation mode, like, i want it it's not working. i gotta try this. i gotta try this, this, this, and this, and they move from one tactic to the to another looking at people who look, successful online, it's only gonna take them away from their real path. and so hyena and so many other animals, like, have this strategic, energy to them. like, follow the path, and you will make mistakes. you will fail a million times. but if you keep on doing that refining and refining and not jumping from one thing to the next, you'll get there.

Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. i love that. so so you you chose or the the hyena sounds like almost chose you because of the new moon in cancer. and so, but you said you're doing this now every monday, so it's not always at the new moon. it's just like every monday you you pick a new or the new animal picks you.

Speaker 1:  right. and i used to do this, like, daily for myself, and i used to also offer animal spirit guide readings. and i used to do, like, videos and stuff like that and and also go along with the moon. so every two

Speaker 0:  weeks, i was,

Speaker 1:  yeah, talking about, like, also, like, conservation of the animal that chose me because i i never i never pull cards. like, i just, like, yeah, ask my questions and then one flips out. it's like me. sometimes it happens right away. sometimes it takes, like, a minute or so. but mhmm.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i think it's just so good for us to even, yeah, know more about this wide animal world and, yeah, beyond animals. right? plants. i mean yeah. in this, book that i love by, not a book, but it's a collection, from rob hopkins called the ministry of imagination.

Speaker 1:  mhmm.

Speaker 0:  and and he asked, all his podcast guests to be the minister of imagination. and so there's the the this book is basically a collection of ideas for the future. and one of these ideas, the reason i bring it up here was this guy, i think it was a guy who is like, we should invent glasses that tell us and, like, when we put them on, it will show us, you know, like, high in, like, holiographically, what the the information is on the plant, the animal, give it its name. so not just our the botanical name, but it's like, hey, this is jessica. you know, it's like, give it a name so that we can relate to to, yeah, nature in that way and really feel like we're one. and i i just love that idea. i like

Speaker 1:  yeah.

Speaker 0:  put a big heart around it. yeah. so, yeah, i i love that you're sharing those on on linkedin. i need to make sure i i hit the bell so that i, oh, i keep seeing them. yeah. so so you mentioned, yeah, you're not going to go too much into the who just yet. but linkedin is still kind of the network where people are like, oh, this is, you know, can we put this there? you were working with companies, organizations on this idea of marketing by nature. so and especially in tourism. right? so how do you feel the readiness there? like, are are though yeah. has and have things changed? is it more in the zeitgeist now?

Speaker 1:  yeah. i mean, i still have a lot to do in that realm. like, i also feel the energy of the person that i'm working with, the company that i'm working with. and i can usually tell how much i can, how far i can go. so i kinda i kind of adapt. i i call myself a chameleon sometimes because i i do adapt to the other person's energy. and i've noticed, like, i also work with freelance creatives. so the designers, the, the copywriters, the filmmakers, those people who are actually able to shift perspectives with their words, with their designs, with their films. and, i find that they are very open to lulu, to, the spiritual aspect, to connecting with nature and, and really learning more about that aspect. and because i also say, like like, running a business, especially if it's just you, if you're like a solopreneur or even if you just have a few employees or independent contractors. like, it's like 95% personal development. i don't know if that's really true. that's just the way it feels and the way, you know, i've experienced it with my my clients and and my network. because your stuff will come up, every with every launch, with every campaign, with every, sales call, whatever it is, your stuff comes up. you procrastinate, you perfect, you get fomo. everybody goes through imposter syndrome. everybody. so we have so many multi layers of ego to sort through that animals and plants that the other natural world, like, don't deal with. and i, you know, i use this as a reminder as well. i'm like, just go out there and observe. like, they don't get in their heads. they just do. you know? they just they just go and do it. just do it. and, you know, especially when it comes to perfectionism. so, you know, like, my clients are, like, about ready to to launch or whatever, and then they they start feeling that fomo coming on and or not the fomo, the, imposter syndrome and and just the the fear of, you know, rejection and stuff like that, from those sales calls and also putting something out there that's not a 100% perfect. because, like, if you if you build a course or if you put out any kind of an offer and it's a new one, you you kinda have to you know, you can't put it out when it's completely done because you need that client feedback. you need to cocreate it with your clients. otherwise, you risk putting something out there and nobody wants it. so this is how software develop software is developed. right? they co create it with their clients. and, so it was it takes a lot to take that step and put something out there that's half baked, that's not finished. and so that is a true sign that, you know, if you can do that, then that's like, wow. okay. you have handled perfectionism. you may not have overcome it yet, but that's, you know, that's a true sign. and and the way to get there is to just do it and, and not think about it. so that's how i also bring in nature. i'm just like, you know, just just observe. they don't they don't do all this stuff that we do. keeps them stuck. they just go and do it.

Speaker 0:  that's so true. yeah. and and there's also cycles, right, in nature. exactly. that are, yeah, not always about being out there and and, you know, launching every day or or closing every day. but there's, yeah, there's wintering and and, you know, there's the dark moon and, like, yeah, in nature, it's just so normal that there's rest included. we feel like, no, rest is not part of not part of business for sure.

Speaker 1:  exactly. yeah. what am i doing?

Speaker 0:  so what kind of daily practices do you have? obviously, you go outside, i assume, and then you have the the the card. any anything i see you have plants in your office. i think that's the the no brainer. right? it's like yeah. of course, you have to have plants.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. i don't have as many plants in my house as i used to just because, yeah. i don't know. i guess i moved, and and they had to stay where they were. but i also have a garden. so, so, yeah, as far as, like, routines, i used to do yoga and meditation every single morning, and this year, i haven't. just because this year has been very busy. and, you know, when you're not the first person who has asked me this this year, and and i keep on coming back to it. i need to implement that back into my routine, but not in the mornings because i i'm now spending a lot of time outside with my dog and and and just, like, connecting with nature before i start my day that when i come back, i'm like, okay. now i can start working. now i can be creative. and, whereas before i was doing i was doing both, but it was it was kinda draining because i would start my day really late. so i do wanna implement that back, but maybe, like, midday or something like that. so that thank you for asking that because it's just i i yeah. it's something that i i wanna be very intentional about, and and it's something that i really wanna bring back. yeah.

Speaker 0:  it is it is a shift when we do really want to, you know, be more embodied. so that means doing something physical. yeah, i do yoga every day. i i am the person who does yoga every day. right? i just decided that that's part of my day. and so when i don't do it, then, yeah, i'm missing it. it's much easier to just decide i am the person who does yoga every day than think every day. should i do it today or should i not? so it's just like, no, this part of my day. but then, yes, you all i also wanna be the person who goes outside every day. right? and then what i notice and the reason i'm talking about, you know, doing business like we're human, well, an eight hour workday is just not human to me anymore because we want to make sure that we do all these other things that are much more important than what we think is important, which is sitting on our computers and, you know, being effective or efficient. so so, yeah, in a way, it's it's this concept of time that we also need to shift and say, well, being in nature takes time. doing yoga takes time, but it's time that i value more than, you know, the work. and that's a big shift for a lot of people also because, of course, the money that's attached to the work. right? and we we are living in a society that still yeah. there's no universal income. and so we have to work to make a living. and oftentimes, like, if you're in a corporate job, you can't just say, oh, i'm i only wanna work six hours per day. right? it's like, no. that's standard forty two hours per week, which is so sad. like, it makes me so angry. so yeah. it it really and the thing is that even if we are entrepreneurs and and we feel like, okay, we want wanted to leave the corporate life behind. like you said, 95% is personal development. and so if we don't change that perspective and mindset that we are just here to work eight hours or probably as entrepreneurs ten hours per day, then we think we went for the freedom, but we just lock ourselves into another box that we create, which then we talk about, oh, i wanna connect with nature, but we don't make it a priority. right? yeah. so, yeah, it it really there's a lot attached to it. it's not just a nice thing to say that we now everybody wants to talk about reconnecting with nature. we actually have to make it a priority and make time for it.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. and it's so interesting because some like, sometimes when it happens to me, like, just spontaneously, like, i don't look for it. it just happens. like, the other week, it was a really bad week. it was the end of, like, the june, the may. it was just really, really bad for several reasons. and so i was walking my dog. her name is nala, chocolate lab. and we were just walking, you know, in one of the normal routes that we go, 06:30 in the morning really early. and, all of a sudden, like, there were three families of geese, on the other side of the river, and then one family was in the in the water. so the babies are starting to get really big right right now, but they're still kind of fluffy. and these are canadian geese, by the way, in germany. but, yeah, we have them. and and then all of a sudden, you know, they they see me and one the papa, one of the one of the males goes into the water, and then his family starts coming. and then the other ones and then the other ones. so all three on the other side came into the water. they all came to us. my dog was like, just eating the grass along the side, but they just swam to us and started like bobbing their head and honking. not loudly, not aggressively, just like occasional honking and bobbing their heads. and i was like, wow, are you here just to say hi, thank you? like, i was just, you know, like communicating with them and it felt so good. and then afterwards i looked it up and i was like, wow, they were, they were excited to see me and nala, but primore me because, you know, nala's a threat. but, but nala was so calm and and they were just, like, saying, we see you. we you're one of us. they like, it is a bonding act of them to bob their heads like that and to to honk and all four families. like, it was it was amazing. and i've seen them a couple of times since. like, i used to see them, like, like, twice a week, but now they're kind of staying out of the water. they're moving onto the grass, onto the fields. and, yeah, and we don't feed them there, so this was not about food. but it was just such a such a, like, such a moment that the next time that i went, when i saw them, i just sat down and they were all just in the water, but also, like, bobbing their heads. they weren't honking. they weren't as excited as before, but they were just kind of staying there and i just, like stayed there and sat with them. but this kind of stuff like happens every now and then. but when i seek it, it's not there. if that makes sense. like you just have to have like an open mind and just say, okay, whatever comes comes, you know, even if nothing comes, then it's also okay. yeah. anyway.

Speaker 0:  yeah. but but but, again, it wouldn't have happened had you just been depressed and just stayed in bed. right? exactly. you had to make the time to make it happen. exactly. yeah.

Speaker 1:  that just, like, made my month. i was like, okay, i'm good. i'm good now.

Speaker 0:  yeah. it's it's like this, this confirmation that nature is perfect and we're all one. right? that's what this message was for. yeah. so definitely. yeah. so so as we're wrapping up here, what would you tell listeners who, you know, maybe they live in new york. i always think about new york city or or just like any city. i was just, in padova, which is the city next to venice. and it's, you know, it's a city. it's a beautiful city, obviously, very old, but it's a city. and there's, you know, there's there's concrete and there's, you know, there's rocks. yes. but, you know, it's still hot and there's not much nature. so what would you tell people who live in a city or listening? how do you connect with nature?

Speaker 1:  yeah. i i come from long island, by the way, in new york. so, and i now found my utopia. it took a long time, but i lived in atlanta too, so i totally get that. i can't live in a city right now, anymore. i don't think, there's nature is everywhere. like i said, we are nature too. so, you know, even a pigeon, like, i've connected with pigeons before. they're, you know, plants, trees. they're there. there are, you know, city parks and stuff like that. and it's not like, you know, you have to go and hunt a tree or whatever. like, there there is kind of a ritual with trees because they're very wise and they're very, you do have to respect their their presence. so i do ask for permission before i connect, especially with trees. animals just seem to do it anyway. so it's not a problem. but, so i guess, like, my advice would be just just go outside and observe. breathe in the air. hopefully, it'll be clean. go anywhere where you can go where there is a little green, or even if you just have some plants on your balcony or in your home or whatever. also like the spiders in your house. my goodness. people just vacuum those up as if they were garbage. like, spiders are welcome in my house until they get to a certain size. and then and then i'm like, okay. sorry, but i have to transport you outside. and then i do. i carefully, you know, pick them up in a jar and stuff and then, you know, walk away, walk outside with them. but, you know, just be respectful, of of all creatures except maybe mosquitoes, like or ticks or anything like that on your dogs. like, i totally get that. but there's just so much that you can do. and, like, if you're at your desk hustling at work, which is what we all do, that's not good for our brains. that's not good for our bodies. so if we just get up and just take a walk, like during lunch breaks, i used to eat lunch at my desk. like, how sick is that? and i know a lot of people still do. get outside. go outside. take a walk around the block. you will see there often there's, like, one sprout of of of life coming up from, you know, the concrete walls or something. and you're like, wow. yeah. there's always something like sit in silence, look around you, feel the wind on your on your face, breathe in the air, be thankful that that you're alive and, that you're okay and that you are part of nature. like, there's so many solutions in nature too that that we don't need all of our machinery and all this stuff that we're trying to trying to do.

Speaker 0:  i was just thinking as you're as you're talking, it's like it's so true. right? i probably live very similarly as as you. like, i have access to a forest and a and a river and, you know, a lake. so, yes, i'm very privileged like that. at the same time, i think if you're in a city, you're paying probably even closer attention to the small flower that, you know, grows through a crack like you just said. and it just kind of almost gives you this bigger moment of awe because you're like, how could this be that, you know, right here, you're yeah. there's so much power in that where where for us, it's like, oh, sometimes it's just like, oh, it's right there. so you have to be more aware, and and pay attention to it. yeah. yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, thank you so much for inspiring us. and and, yeah, i highly recommend people follow you on on linkedin. where else can they find you to get to know you a bit more?

Speaker 1:  i guess my website. so that's ethicalbrandmarketing.com. but, yeah, i'm only i am visible. i'm present on every every other channel. like, i do have a presence, but i just like, a couple of years ago, i was like, nope. gonna concentrate on where everybody where my audience is, and that's that's linkedin. so yeah. just jessica lohmann. easy to find. easy to find. yeah. thank you. a couple

Speaker 0:  of questions for you. yeah. we'll record those separately. so we'll close here, and then we'll see each other again. but thanks so much for being on the show. thank you. and, yeah. well, who knows? maybe we'll cross paths one in in real life. yeah. i'm sure we we're neighbors. that's true. thanks, jessica. thank you, sarah.