The Poetics and Politics of Our Mental Health Metaphors: An Interview with Laurence Kirmayer
Mad in America: Rethinking Mental Health
Release Date: 05/21/2025
Mad in America: Rethinking Mental Health
Welcome to the Mad in America podcast, my name is James. Today, we are discussing the experiences of people who have attempted to stop taking psychiatric drugs. These experiences are captured in a survey undertaken by the School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland. Joining me to talk about this work are Cathal Cadogan and Agnes Higgins, both from Trinity College. Cathal is an Associate Professor in Practice of Pharmacy at Trinity College. His research focuses on developing supports to help people make informed decisions about starting and stopping...
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Nisha Gupta is an existential phenomenologist, a depth psychotherapist, a creativity scholar, and an artist. She's an Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of West Georgia and earned her PhD in clinical psychology from Duquesne University in Pittsburgh. She's also, if she doesn't mind me saying, a bit of a rising star as an early career psychologist, having won early career awards from the APA divisions for both humanistic and qualitative psychology. Dr. Gupta's work centers on lived experience and the problems of form and method in the field. She is an advocate of the...
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Alicia Ely Yamin is the Director of the Global Health and Rights Project and a lecturer at Harvard Law School. She's also an adjunct senior lecturer on health policy and management at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and a Senior Advisor on Human Rights and Health Policy at Partners in Health. Alicia is known globally for her work on the right to health, economic and social rights, and reproductive justice. She has spent much of her professional life in Latin America and East Africa, including co-founding a health and human rights program with the Asociación Pro Derechos...
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Susanne Paola Antonetta is an accomplished writer and poet, the author of numerous books, and in 2001 her book Body Toxic: An Environmental Memoir, won a prestigious American Book Award. Her latest book is . *** Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: © Mad in America 2026. Produced by James Moore
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Kamaldeep Bhui is Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Oxford and Honorary Professor at Queen Mary University of London. He is internationally recognized for his groundbreaking work on cultural psychiatry, ethnic inequalities in mental health, and the social determinants of distress. In recognition of his contributions to mental health research and policy, he was appointed Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE). He has written extensively on the grim reality of minorities facing higher rates of psychiatric detention and coercion. In an era of algorithmic checklists and...
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Elizabeth Cotton is Associate Professor of Responsible Business at the University of Leicester and the founder of , which carries out socially engaged research on mental health and work. She has worked with health teams and trade unions, practiced as a psychotherapist in the NHS, and now runs the Digital Therapy Project, a group of UK and US researchers studying the future of therapy from both sides of the relationship. In her new book, , she explores the effects of reorganizing mental health care around the logic of the app store. Therapy is now something you can scroll through on your phone,...
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Elizabeth Cotton is Associate Professor of Responsible Business at the University of Leicester and the founder of , which carries out socially engaged research on mental health and work. She has worked with health teams and trade unions, practiced as a psychotherapist in the NHS, and now runs the Digital Therapy Project, a group of UK and US researchers studying the future of therapy from both sides of the relationship. In her new book, , she explores the effects of reorganizing mental health care around the logic of the app store. Therapy is now something you can scroll through on your phone,...
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This week, we are joined by Chris Masterjohn, PhD. Chris is a nutritional scientist, a former professor, and the founder of . With a PhD in nutritional science and years of research in mitochondrial biology, Chris’s work focuses on translating peer-reviewed science into practical tools for human health. At Mitome, Dr. Masterjohn pioneered the first analysis designed to measure mitochondrial respiratory chain function directly, identifying individual energy bottlenecks and guiding personalized science-backed protocols to optimize the system responsible for over 90% of cellular energy...
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This week, we are joined by Chris Masterjohn, PhD. Chris is a nutritional scientist, a former professor, and the founder of . With a PhD in nutritional science and years of research in mitochondrial biology, Chris’s work focuses on translating peer-reviewed science into practical tools for human health. At Mitome, Dr. Masterjohn pioneered the first analysis designed to measure mitochondrial respiratory chain function directly, identifying individual energy bottlenecks and guiding personalized science-backed protocols to optimize the system responsible for over 90% of cellular energy...
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Jan N. DeFehr is an associate professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Winnipeg and an associate of and a member of the . She is also a member of the . Before entering academia, she spent many years as a clinical social worker, working alongside people who were trying to make sense of their distress within, and often in spite of, the mental health system. Her teaching, research, and course development focus on building public access to critical analyses of that system, drawing on the work of clients and survivors of psychiatry, practitioners, and scholars. Her new book,...
info_outlineLaurence Kirmayer is one of the most influential figures in cultural psychiatry today. A psychiatrist, researcher, and theorist, he serves as James McGill Professor and Director of the Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry at McGill University and Editor-in-Chief of Transcultural Psychiatry. Across decades of work bridging anthropology, psychiatry, and cognitive science, Kirmayer has advanced a complex view of mental health as inseparable from culture, history, language, and political power.
His research ranges from Indigenous youth resilience and narrative medicine to the diagnostic metaphors—such as “chemical imbalance” or “trauma”—that reshape identity and possibility. He has helped pioneer integrative approaches that unite phenomenology and neuroscience, including a biopsychosocial model grounded in enactive and embodied cognition, as well as a person-centered, ecosocial framework for understanding suffering beyond reductive biological paradigms. His critiques extend to how psychiatric categories reflect colonial histories and obscure social causes, as well as how attempts to localize mental health interventions may still impose Western norms.
Kirmayer’s scholarship on narrative, metaphor, and cultural psychiatry aligns with ongoing efforts by Indigenous psychologists and anthropologists to reframe trauma and healing through culturally grounded practices, as reflected in recent collaborative work calling for a decolonial turn in psychology. Drawing on 4E cognitive science, he proposes that metaphors are not simply rhetorical tools but embodied and enacted processes embedded in local social worlds. These shape how people experience distress and how clinicians make sense of it.
His forthcoming book, Healing and the Invention of Metaphor: Toward a Poetics of Illness Experience (Cambridge University Press, July 2025), extends these themes by exploring how metaphor, narrative, and imagination shape suffering and healing across cultures, while offering a critical account of the symbolic and political frameworks embedded in contemporary psychiatric and biomedical practice.
In this wide-ranging conversation, Kirmayer explores the politics of diagnostic language, the structural roots of suffering, and the poetic potential of metaphor to disrupt conformity and open new avenues for healing. From the medicalization of culturally normative expressions of distress to the reification of trauma, Kirmayer shows how dominant frameworks can limit imagination, flatten complexity, and displace political realities with individualized solutions. He calls for a psychiatry that listens not only to symptoms but to the metaphors and metaphysics that animate people’s lives.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
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